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Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:16:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Wouldn't be any different than it is now, save for sick people dying. The cities are already full of thieving murderers though.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:18:02 AM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:


I can only Imagine how the sounds of generators will draw those folks like moths to a lamp. "Hey, I hear your generator, can I plug my phone in and charge it?"
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Quoted:
Quoted:
One cell phone battery life of time for society to begin the collapse.  Because the realization that no more social media because your cell phone is dead and not recharging.


I can only Imagine how the sounds of generators will draw those folks like moths to a lamp. "Hey, I hear your generator, can I plug my phone in and charge it?"

I was the only guy with a generator on my street. When neighbors saw my lights they came like zombies, mostly asking to put things in my fridge. My house was the center of the universe for a few days, then FEMA showed up and gave away generators. My reward for being prepared was watching the unprepared get rewarded.


Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:18:13 AM EDT
[#3]
I remember news reports during the Texas power outage where people were complaining that their freezers full of food was going bad even though it was like 15 degrees outside.  With this stupidity I give us less than 24 hours.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:19:12 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
I remember news reports during the Texas power outage where people were complaining that their freezers full of food was going bad even though it was like 15 degrees outside.  With this stupidity I give us less than 24 hours.
View Quote
texans don't understand winter.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:19:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
In February 2021, a winter storm that swept through Texas caused one of the most severe power crises in American history. The cold weather created shockingly high electricity demands as people tried to keep their homes warm. But it also caused problems with the power supply because power plants themselves and their supporting infrastructure weren't adequately protected against freezing weather. The result was that Texas couldn't generate enough power to meet demand. Instead they would have to disconnect customers to reduce demands down to  manageable levels. But before grid operators could shed enough load from the system, the frequency of the alternating current dropped as the remaining generators were bogged down, falling below 59.4 hertz for over 4 minutes.

It might not seem like much, but that is a critical threshold in grid operations. It's 1% below nominal. Power plants have relays that keep track of grid frequency and disconnect equipment if anything goes awry to prevent serious damage. If the grid frequency drops below 59.4 hertz, the clock starts ticking. And if it doesn't return to the nominal frequency within 9 minutes, the relays trip! That means the Texas grid came within a bathroom break from total collapse. If a few more large power plants tripped offline or too few customers were shed from the system in time, it's likely that the frequency would have continued to drop until every single generator on the grid was disconnected.

Thankfully, that nightmare scenario was avoided. Still, despite operators preventing a total collapse, the 2021 power crisis was one of the most expensive and deadly disasters in Texas history. If those four minutes had gone differently, it's almost impossible to imagine how serious the consequences would be. Let's put ourselves in the theoretical boots of someone waking up after that frigid February night in Texas, assuming the grid did collapse, and find out. I'm Grady, and this is Practical Engineering. In today's episode, we're talking about the impacts of blackouts on other infrastructure.

Every so often some loud noise wakes you from your sleep: a truck backfiring on the street outside, a baby crying, a cat knocking something off a shelf. But it's a very different thing altogether to be awoken by silence, your unconscious mind telling you that the sounds you should be hearing are gone. It only takes a groggy minute to piece it together. The refrigerator is silent, no air is flowing through the heating register, the ceiling fan above your head is slowly coming to a stop. The power is out. You check your phone. It's 4AM. Nothing you can really do but go back to sleep and hope they get it fixed by daylight.

Most of us have experienced a power outage at some point, but they're usually short (lasting on the order of minutes or hours) and they're mostly local (affecting a small area at a time). A wide area interconnection - that's the technical term for a power grid - is designed that way on purpose. It has redundancies, multiple paths that power can take to get to the same destination, and power users and producers are spread out, reducing the chance that they could be impacted all at once. But having everyone interconnected is a vulnerability too, because if things go very wrong, everyone is affected. We're in the midst of a deep dive series on wide scale outages to the power grid, and a mismatch between supply and demand (like what happened in Texas) is only one of the many reasons that could cause a major blackout. Natural disasters, engineering errors, and deliberate attacks can all completely collapse a grid, and - at least for the first few hours of an outage - you might not even know that what you're experiencing is any more serious than a wayward tree branch tripping the fuse on the transformer outside your house.

You wake up 3 hours later, cold, sunlight peeking in through your bedroom window. The power is still off. You grab your cell phone to try and figure out what's going on. It has a full battery from charging overnight, and you have a strong signal too. You try to call a friend, but the call won't go through. You try a few more times, but still, nothing more than a friendly voice saying "All Circuits Are Busy."

There is a vast array of pathways that information flows between people across the globe, and they all use grid power to function. Fiber networks use switches and optical terminals distributed throughout the service area. Cable TV and DSL networks have nodes that service around 500 to 1000 customers each that require power. Cellular networks use base stations mounted on towers or rooftops. Major telecommunications facilities are usually on prioritized grid circuits and may even have redundant power feeds from multiple substations, but even during a blackout where the entire grid is completely disabled, you might still have service. That's because most telecommunication facilities are equipped with backup batteries that can keep them running during a power outage for 4 to 8 hours. Critical facilities like cellular base stations and data-centers often have an on-site backup generator. These generators have enough fuel to extend the resiliency beyond 24 to 48 hours. That said, major emergencies create huge demands on telecommunication services as everyone is trying to find and share information at once, so you might not be able to get through even if the services are still available. In the US, the federal government works with telecommunications providers to create priority channels so that 911 calls, emergency management communications, and other matters related to public safety can get through even when the networks are congested.

Since you're trying to make a personal call and you aren't enrolled in the Telecommunications Service Priority program, you're not getting through. Just then, an emergency alert appears on your screen. It says that there's a power grid failure and to prepare for an extended outage. The reality of the situation is just starting to set in. Since most people have a cell phone, wireless emergency alerts have become an important addition to the Emergency Alert System that connects various levels of government to tv, radio, satellite, and telephone companies to disseminate public warnings and alerts. During a blackout, sharing information isn't just for likes on social media. It's how we keep people safe, connect them with resources, and maintain social order. Two-way communications like cell phones and the internet might not last long during a grid outage, so one-way networks like radio and television broadcasts are essential to keep people informed. These facilities are often equipped with more backup fuel reserves and even emergency provisions for the staff so that they can continue to operate during a blackout for weeks if necessary.

moar

i reckon merica will go full mad max within 87 hours of the grid collapsing.

what say you?
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9 meals to anarchy
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:20:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Depends where. The big cities? A few days at most. The country? Longer.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:21:12 AM EDT
[#7]
For everyone that lives in a major city or metropolis, do you know how to get out besides the freeway?

Do you know the least traveled streets, ones that will be good or bad? When was the last time you drove them or an alternate route?

All the lazy people or stupid ones will clog the freeways and highways trying to leave. So what's your plan B or C if you get caught away from home or in the city?

I give it 24 hours, if the power in any major city goes out, people will start looting and acting stupid if they know the power is going to be out longer than that. If you haven't made your move in that time, get ready for thunderdome.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:21:20 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
I think that after about 3 days, most people would recognize their sole focus will be survival.  Without power to move food or water for 350 million people, it will get spicy extraordinarily fast.
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Yes… the great 2003 blackout showed that even Detroit could hold it together for 3 days… but after that it would be varying degrees of absolute bedlam.

Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:21:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Tldr.

It would be lol hours.

I still haven't seen any decent duration blackout in vegas in the summertime but that idea gives me nightmares.

Something causing a nationwide longterm outage would be terrifying.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:22:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Y'all are slippin' 87 seconds.
No two weeks.
A long weekend?
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Monday. It will be on Monday.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:22:54 AM EDT
[#11]

Days. Maybe hours in some cases.

I used to drive a toll road that doesn’t have many stops. There’s a stretch where there’s one gas station in the middle of an empty 100 mile stretch.

One time on that drive, that gas station lost internet. Cash only for payment. Cars backed up at the pumps, people yelling at each other, it was wild. I still had half a tank, so I got back in and kept driving.

All that over one gas station losing just internet. Calibrate accordingly.

Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:23:16 AM EDT
[#12]
When Irma came through here in 2017 it was the very next day people were getting real shitty. And we didn't even get hit that hard here. Power was out for a week but the very first day after they couldn't figure out how to charge their phones they went nuts.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:23:35 AM EDT
[#13]
Some areas would last months without total break down, other areas hours to days.

Stack rice, beans, vitamins, water filter, water and meds deep. And shoes, socks, gloves, most anything that wears out faster when doing manual labor.

Modern houses are not designed to be good places to live without electricity. Summer or winter in most of the country would be absolutely miserable in most homes. Then you have all the houses that depend on powered lift stations get get the sewage to flow up hill, and all the houses that depend on a sump pump to keep the basement dry.

People living in hundred and fifty year old farm houses that still have a working hand pump well or cistern will be better off than anyone in a McMansion. Most folks with generators don’t have the fuel to last much more than a week, if that.

If you live in parts of the country that depend on water being pumped in from a long ways off, life is gonna get hard fast. Even the Midwest gets some pretty bad droughts from time to time.

There won’t be much game or fish left in short order because we have too many people here for the land to sustain us. Remember how fast the toilet paper disappeared a few year ago? The whole store will be empty in a day.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:24:35 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


Until the goon squads methbillies come.
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Quoted:
Blue cities will start to erupt within a week.

Rural folks will be fine much longer...


Until the goon squads methbillies come.


Honestly, there’s no real great options unless you’re on a high fence, square mile of property with a full squad of mercs patrolling and in observation posts. And even then there are no guarantees.

It’s not like we haven’t gamed this out six ways from Sunday in the Survival Forum…
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:25:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Days. Maybe hours in some cases.

I used to drive a toll road that doesn’t have many stops. There’s a stretch where there’s one gas station in the middle of an empty 100 mile stretch.

One time on that drive, that gas station lost internet. Cash only for payment. Cars backed up at the pumps, people yelling at each other, it was wild. I still had half a tank, so I got back in and kept driving.

All that over one gas station losing just internet. Calibrate accordingly.

View Quote


Not waiting until the needle is on "E" to fill up is a good strategy. Shortly after 911, I was taking the cans to the curb one evening and heard a ruckus a few miles up the road. Horns & yelling from the wide spot in the road where a couple of gas stations were.

I learned the next day that cars were lined up out into the road blocking traffic. A local Sheriff Deputy was supposedly told to FO when trying to get the people blocking traffic to get out of line.

All because a rumor had started that gas was going to be $5/gal. by morning.

Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:26:42 AM EDT
[#16]
87 hours in a total grid down.
No food trucks, no government communication, no way to get gas to run generators. No driving to another area that has power.

Looting in the cities would start the within hours. Heck looting on a small scale is already a regular occurrence in some major cities. Cell towers going down would slow the formation of groups but not stop it.
First luxury items, clothes, shoes would go as people would assume it is a short term thing. Day 2 or 3 when people realize it's a long term outage they would start trying to find food and water. Then groups would start going door to door in urban areas looking for food and water. With certain demographics forming mobs faster than others.

By day 87 it will look like Bartertown.

Hopefully if it does happen it will be early Winter.
Grain silos would be full. Many are in urban areas near shipping ports or rail road junctions. But rural areas would still have smaller storage that has not been shipped off.
Once snow starts falling in the Northern states roads will close to vehicle traffic limiting movement from urban areas. Cold weather will kill off people unprepared to live without electricity.

Areas that rely on electricity to survive the heat or cold like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Fargo, Minneapolis would make survival even more difficult.


Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:31:23 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
texans don't understand winter.
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Sadly....

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:31:54 AM EDT
[#18]
Bring it.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:32:28 AM EDT
[#19]
87 minutes
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:33:46 AM EDT
[#20]
I’ll be fine…..the hills of southern Ohio have always been a safe and welcoming place to unwanted strangers due to our generosity and open minded nature.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:34:22 AM EDT
[#21]
It depends on the people rather than the location.

Disasters have shown both the best and the worst of society, depending on the population.  If you live in a High Trust/Low Crime area you'll do much better than living in a Low Trust/High Crime area, regardless of location or population density.

People who can work together under a common framework for a mutual goal will survive.  Those who can't, won't.

In any case, regardless of where you live if you are not in good physical or mental shape you're not going to last very long.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:34:38 AM EDT
[#22]
If this thread is still front page by the time I get done with work, I’ll share my experiences working in the hospital system as part of the Emergency Management Committee.

It was wild.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:36:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Ever see the Twilight Zone episode "The Shelter?"

Yeah.

But add guns.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:40:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If this thread is still front page by the time I get done with work, I’ll share my experiences working in the hospital system as part of the Emergency Management Committee.

It was wild.
View Quote


I’m doing my part
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:40:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:41:20 AM EDT
[#26]
Without information or estimated restoration time?  I give things a week.

Like others have posted, better in rural areas, worse in cities.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:41:26 AM EDT
[#27]
With no hope or expectation of it being restored in a few hours or even a few days?  I give it less than a week.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:41:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:42:06 AM EDT
[#29]
I have a friend who worked at a rural electric co-operative

she said she was shocked to find out half their customers have someone in the family who is on a life-support machine of some kind and need their power back on before anyone else

kind of like the old saying, 236 SEALS served in Vietnam, and I know because I've met 20,000 of them
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:43:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Having lived through and seen the effects of Katrina I can definitely say it won't last 3 days.

Civilization is a very thin veneer.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:44:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Exactly
Here’s an example for those folks that think they’ll just live off the land.

There are approximately 30 million whitetail deer in the US. There are approximately 350 million people. If just 10% of the population shoots 1 deer they are virtually extinct. Use that on any wildlife species. Bad plan.

And the people who say; “I’ll just plant a garden”. LOL. There’s a huge learning curve to that. And you’ll stave before you get any harvest whatsoever.
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Fellow Texan- surely you've eaten some stinky wild pig before. 350 million people can't kill them faster than they make babies. There's not enough lead to kill them all, and lead will be the new currency.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:48:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A week? During the '77 Blackout, the looting in NYC began within an hour of the lights going out.
It was the same here in FL a few years back when the lights went out in some areas during a hurricane.
Within an hour, someone posted video to Twitter of a Foot Locker being looted.
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And thats within a week... 0 to 168 hours...

Looting a footlocker is not the collapse of society. If that is the metric then we are already there right now in several parts of our country.  Kicking in apartment doors to steal ritz crackers and Diet Coke... thats what I am referring to.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:53:22 AM EDT
[#33]
Society is already collapsing and the power is still on.

The lack of consequences from the courts and law enforcement have seen to that. Criminals are a protcted class now.



Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:53:35 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
  And just how long do you think that'll last?
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in 6 days they're eating pets because the squirrels are gone, of course that pet will be inedible within a day. If you aren't the military (and perhaps even if you are) you won't have enough gas to run your vehicles to charge your phone (who are you calling anyway?) each toilet probably has enough water to last 1 person a week.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:54:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Not waiting until the needle is on "E" to fill up is a good strategy. Shortly after 911, I was taking the cans to the curb one evening and heard a ruckus a few miles up the road. Horns & yelling from the wide spot in the road where a couple of gas stations were.

I learned the next day that cars were lined up out into the road blocking traffic. A local Sheriff Deputy was supposedly told to FO when trying to get the people blocking traffic to get out of line.

All because a rumor had started that gas was going to be $5/gal. by morning.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:


Days. Maybe hours in some cases.

I used to drive a toll road that doesn't have many stops. There's a stretch where there's one gas station in the middle of an empty 100 mile stretch.

One time on that drive, that gas station lost internet. Cash only for payment. Cars backed up at the pumps, people yelling at each other, it was wild. I still had half a tank, so I got back in and kept driving.

All that over one gas station losing just internet. Calibrate accordingly.



Not waiting until the needle is on "E" to fill up is a good strategy. Shortly after 911, I was taking the cans to the curb one evening and heard a ruckus a few miles up the road. Horns & yelling from the wide spot in the road where a couple of gas stations were.

I learned the next day that cars were lined up out into the road blocking traffic. A local Sheriff Deputy was supposedly told to FO when trying to get the people blocking traffic to get out of line.

All because a rumor had started that gas was going to be $5/gal. by morning.

Gasoline and clean water are the two most valuable commodities in a power off situation; without either society shuts down within a day.

You can go without food or even medicine for a week or more before really hurting.  You can't go without water more than 24 hours before getting sick, and you can't go anywhere if your car is out of gas; all your Bug Out preps are useless without a full tank of gas.

Not that bugging out is a automatically good idea:  If things are bad enough for you to leave, then they'll be bad enough for everyone else to leave, too. The time to bug out is before the disaster hits and if there's no warning then you'll be stuck there with everyone else.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 10:55:00 AM EDT
[#36]
If we're talking about a great collapse in a certain area eventually the people would be moved out of that area to someplace that has power and accommodations.  Certainly there  will be looting and bunch of bullshit going on, but eventually the National Guard will be brought in.

are you talking about the entire country? I'm not sure if that's even possible. However, if it would happen, the first thing is going to be a run on the food stores. I suppose some people will start popping out fuel from stations. It's whatever containers they have if they don't get shot by the owners.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:02:26 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I was the only guy with a generator on my street. When neighbors saw my lights they came like zombies, mostly asking to put things in my fridge. My house was the center of the universe for a few days, then FEMA showed up and gave away generators. My reward for being prepared was watching the unprepared get rewarded.


View Quote

That's usually how that works. At the camp ground where we have a trailer we are responsible for mowing  25' around our site. I mow and do some others. The lazy ones that don't? Well someone eventually comes around and mows for them.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:03:22 AM EDT
[#38]
This book lays out one possible  (set of) scenario(s).  The timing of an EMP affecting the continental U.S. was relatively fortuitous for the NC residents described in the book.  Despite that, a large fraction of the population in the town and surround areas perished within the first year.  Interesting read.

One Second After
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:05:18 AM EDT
[#39]
People around here were close to turning to cannibalism after 17 hours of a grid outage back in 2010.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:08:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Three meals from anarchy
View Quote


You're not wrong. I've seen first hand what people will do when they are starving, thirsty ect....yet this is exactly what this left-wing Democratic Socialist dictatorship seems to be working on. Attacking farmers, meart producers ect...all under the guise of this BS global warming scheme which is nothing but another plandemic to line the pockets of the political criminals.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:17:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Days. Maybe hours in some cases.

I used to drive a toll road that doesn't have many stops. There's a stretch where there's one gas station in the middle of an empty 100 mile stretch.

One time on that drive, that gas station lost internet. Cash only for payment. Cars backed up at the pumps, people yelling at each other, it was wild. I still had half a tank, so I got back in and kept driving.

All that over one gas station losing just internet. Calibrate accordingly.

View Quote
i never go below 50% on fuel whilst road tripping.

and i always have emergency cash in my boot.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:18:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If this thread is still front page by the time I get done with work, I'll share my experiences working in the hospital system as part of the Emergency Management Committee.

It was wild.
View Quote
Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:20:33 AM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:22:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Just look at history with NYC in 1977 & 2003.  Society & civility has decayed much since then, too.

NYC Blackout: What It Was Like When the City Lost Power in 1977 | NBC New York

NYC Blackout: What It Was Like When the City Lost Power in 1977 | NBC New York


Blackout: The Power Outage That Left 50 Million W/o Electricity | Retro Report | The New York Times

Blackout: The Power Outage That Left 50 Million W/o Electricity | Retro Report | The New York Times
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:23:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I was the only guy with a generator on my street. When neighbors saw my lights they came like zombies, mostly asking to put things in my fridge. My house was the center of the universe for a few days, then FEMA showed up and gave away generators. My reward for being prepared was watching the unprepared get rewarded.


View Quote


Light and noise discipline will be important concepts in any prolonged “event.”
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:25:09 AM EDT
[#46]
I think 87 hours is being generous.

Few can be still and quiet with their own thoughts for more than two minutes without some form of outside stimulus.

When the God Cellphone is stilled, folks will go nuts on an epic scale.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:29:34 AM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
3 months and it's mad max.
View Quote

However long it takes for 3 meals to disappear
So probably 3 days imo
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:29:40 AM EDT
[#48]
“2 days. Arfcom folks to pussy to eat a room temp meat,”

Cooking bad meet will kill the bacteria but not the toxins
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:33:11 AM EDT
[#49]
On Memorial day 2015, our area experienced 80 mph straight line winds and we were without power for 8 days due to all the uprooted trees.

Luckily it wasn't as hot as usual so we made it fine with our small solar system to run a couple of fans at night and a small Honda inverter genny to keep the food in the fridge and freezer .

Strange timing of this thread as I just replaced the batteries in the bank yesterday.

Hopefully the big one doesn't hit during summer down here, we've all become soft, high heat and humidity would be brutal once the generator fuel runs out.

ETA: there will be a lot of deaths when the cpaps & dialysis machines stop working and the insulin can't be kept cool. Modern conviences and medicines are the only things keeping a bunch of people above ground.
Link Posted: 6/25/2023 11:35:11 AM EDT
[#50]
About one hour before total Anarchy.
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