Sorry if I lumped you in beyond your actual stance.

Here's how I thought about it -
I had built the gun with a short barrel to be a pistol with a brace, not a pistol without a brace. I was on the fence as to whether I would register it and put a real stock on it. I also have a silencer stamp pending to use with it.

When they announced the rule, I thought it was complete BS. I still have the original sig brace with the damn letter from them. Even though I had already considered registering it, once they were forcing the issue I held out as long as possible even though it would have been free. At the end of the freeBR period, I saw that I had two options.

1) Register it - I get to keep the brace on it and can put on a stock if I want later. Now it's registered, have to deal with state lines and all the extra BS. I saw this as a draw as far as my rights go. There are extra strings attached but I get to keep my gun the way I want it or make it better and they don't get any money from me. The idea that this put overturning the rule in jeopardy somehow didn't cross my mind and is completely farcical.

2) Remove & destroy - they win, 100%. I don't have the (legal) right to keep gun the way I want it. I have no desire to have a bare buffer tube. I'll have to put on a long barrel or register it anyways. They have taken away my rights. Same goes for burying it.

Regarding your comment that "It wouldn't have been some dramatic loss if you couldn't have kept a brace" - so none of this mattered then? Why did anyone care, why is there a thread, why was there a legal challenge, why are we supposed to be celebrating?? I don't get it. When I posted that, I didn't realize people here thought removing & destroying the brace was a better option somehow. My stance was simply that keeping it on and not registering it was not something I could do (and furthermore that it was stupid).

This.

*unsubscribe*

Exactly.
Invalidating 250k+ FreeBR stamps (plus voiding however many applications are in the queue awaiting resolution of the court case) would put them in a big pickle because of the application's admission statement and the number of people that subsequently put a stock on their firearms.

I wonder how many braced firearms with unresolved FreeBR applications are out there with a stock on them today, with the owner believing since they applied by the deadline they are legally compliant. There's always somebody that doesn't read his email.

Kharn

@EEgeek

No you don't.  You seem to keep missing the point.  The CAVEAT is that you have to have to have something else that the brace can be mounted to that would not be an illegal NFA item.  Being that this is AR15.com, not AK47.com or MP5.com or, most of us probably started our AR journeys with a 16"er.  

Or do you think you can only keep the brace if you keep it ON the weapon with a 16" upper?  As opposed to taking the brace off and sitting in the safe NEXT TO a 16" upper.  

BTW, it does not even have to be a 16" upper.  You could have an SBR'd AR already.  Boom...  

To make this as simple as possible.  You treat(ed) the brace like a stock.

So unless you fall into the incredibly small minority that had no other "qualified" weapons the brace could fit, you could just take it off.       If I only owned a single braced AR-15, I would have simply purchased a cheap 16" upper to sit in the safe (and toss the brace next to that) instead of destroying.

This idea do you had no choice but to register or destroy the brace is comical. As you scroll through this thread, reading all of the "so we can put our braces back on now?" comments should tell you something.

It is shameful to see the purse swinging over this.  Big deal, some for whatever reason decided to get a freeBR and some didn't.  Each to their own we should all be friends.

That said, I think the freeBRs will be left alone as the conditions are 1. you didn't have to engrave and 2. you didn't have to comply with 922r.  The rule was valid when they were approved.  But what do I know, I didn't sleep in a Super 8 last night.

Yep.

You never kept your braced pistol intact bro.  If you wanted to use it as a PISTOL (pistol laws), you could not keep the brace on it...period.  The brace was being treated as a stock by the ATF.  It was either a pistol (without a brace/stock) or an SBR (with a brace/stock).  

As for what it accomplished?  Not signing up for the ATF's bait told the ATF that (most) folks will not be bribed with their BS rule they are trying to pass off as a law, and that we will see them in court.  It don't quite understand this line of argument you are pushing being that in the end, most people didn't take the bait and the BS rule ended up being vacated.

The hatred for the free SBRs is absurd.

AR lowers are, for now, dirt cheap and in unlimited supply. Manufacturers are begging us to take them at prices that, when adjusted for inflation, are the lowest we’ve ever seen.

Getting a couple hundred thousand or whatever of these lowers on the registry, at minimum, deprives the government of a few million dollars in revenue and reinforces common use arguments for SBRs. Or, if things get ugly and we have an SBR equivalent of the Hughes Amendment or a NFA carve out for an AWB, it’ll be nice to have these in circulation.

A bunch of the guys I know locally bought lowers/pistols after the rule was announced so they could take advantage of the opportunity. I’d bet these are at least a third if not half of what got registered.

FWIW, I did the normal $200 F1 because it seemed less sketchy, but I understand why a bunch of guys who wanted SBRs when the FreeBR route.

If the free-BRs stand that’s not a bad outcome. More people enjoy with impunity functional stocked guns. Those previously on the SBR / registration fence got an incentive to get those toes wet and now have a SBR.  The prize for all of us is somebody got standing for a significant court case and legal precedent. Now there are more accounted for SBRs in common use.   The dilution of the silly maker’s engraving requirement is also a minor win.   Most importantly ATF’s restraint of trade on braced pistols gets shot down. The market wins.

We should all realize that in spite of disagreements about a priori judgements, a posterior we are now in much better shape.  People want to pat themselves on the back for being predictively right doesn’t take away from the current bell weather status.

Now, if ATF pulls the approvals it might be a good discussion about the decision to stamp or not going forward.  

This isn’t about which gun owner was right last year. It’s about the ATF being shown they were wrong this year.

So smile when you say ‘that’ pardner…

It's sad to see the number of "patriots" here that bent the knee to the king. They will probably be falling over each other to turn their guns in when they finally pass the bills to outlaw firearms ownership.

I agree.... It is totally retarded.  

It's also retarded to berate someone who paid the stamp to SBR their rifle.

THIS is one of the better examples of gun owners eating their own(not you and your post specifically, just some of the sentiments expressed in this thread).  It's pretty laughable watching people trying to "out hardass" the other guy.

Exactly what I mean....  

Where are your unregistered NFA items?  Oh, you don't have any?

Ever fill out a 4473 or have an item shipped to your FFL for a transfer?  Oh, you did?

Laughable.

I think the whole argument is retarded but over and over again asking people to admit to having unregistered machine guns, SBRs, and cans on the internet and then acting like you've proven a point when they don't answer you is even more retarded.

Nah...  He could simply say that he hasn't ever done a Form 1 or Form 4 for example with the insinuation being that he doesn't own any NFA items because those forms would be "bending the knee".  But I bet that most calling people out here for the "Free SBR" probably have submitted a form for 'permission' to own NFA.

With all the bumpstocks being found by the roadside yesterday, I bet the number of folks who kept their braces on was very high.   Not to mention that most people were protected by injunctions the whole time anyway.

…and yet both “sides” of what should be one united front are sniping at each other for the last 87 pages.

How about everyone STFU about who did what in the past and celebrate the WIN???

SB Tactical said they made 10+ million braces in the decade preceding '23.
ATF said they issued 250k FreeBRs with an untold number of unresolved applications still pending from the date of the injunction.

There's a lot of people who 1) didn't hear about the rule, 2) DGAF, 3) were a member of a group with an injunction, or 4) threw a lot of stuff in a lake.

Many people buy whatever looks cool at the gun store, stick it in their closet, and never post or read about guns on social media because of all the censorship. So they wouldn't see the notices to register, remove, or destroy their property.

Kharn

I have no Form 1's, but it isn't important.  I'd say bending the knee has several layers, and "landscape" matters.

For instance, I'm not big on SBR's for AR's, but that is because I know I'm viewing things from a more recent landscape.  With stripped lowers (that become other/pistols) selling for $30 bucks, and braces and specific short barrel calibers all over the place, and all of the recent CCW and constitutional carry laws in place, why SBR AR's now?  

BUT, I also understand that the landscape was a lot different 25 years ago, and SBR'ing was a bigger thing because there were far less alternate avenues for a short barreled weapon.  If someone already had SBR's, then I can understand the "I'm already on the books" mentality.

Suppressors are a different story.  They are not allowed in Illinois, and I will gladly admit that if Nolo works his magic and Illinois allows them, I will quickly (even if I don't like it) bend that knee.  I view suppressors differently because in all honesty, they should be required.  And more importantly, this is no alternate legal non-nfa avenue available.   If there was a pistol brace equivalent to cans (98% of the functionality without the tax or Form 1), I think everyone would be all over that.   As I'm typing this, I'm looking at the cup of coffee I'm drinking and deciding if it is worth it to get more, because the caffeine makes me REEEEEE act up.  Hopefully they are removed from the NFA soon.

The FreeBR's is a different deal for me.  Mostly because I would wager that a good chunk of the FreeBR's are just folks that wanted free SBR's, and were not all that invested in the brace "treat this new rule as law" issue.     It was a made-up illegal rule, not a law (and yes, the NFA is unconstitutional, that fight continues).   I'd also add that this is why the bumpstock victory feels more united, there wasn't the bribe factor.


----

Imagine if the bumpstock rule when written would have made bumpstocks attached to semi-auto rifles illegal, but not the bumpstock themselves as illegal......and the ATF would have allowed folks to register their AR that the bumpstock is attached to as machineguns.  That would have made it similar to the brace ban issue, and we would have some lively discussions on who is going to register their bumpstock as a machine gun even though it is only a machine gun based on the ATF's new definition in rule, not the actual codified definition....vs who would just take them off.  

In the end, we will win both.  But I do worry about solidarity if/when the ATF starts offering personal gain.  Hopefully, all of these legal setbacks for FATF will stop the rule making BS, and we don't have to worry about such bribes.    

It’s interesting that you choose to define someone as not being a “Patriot” over this situation.

I would venture to say you know absolutely nothing about any of the people you’re referring to and even less about the situation taking place.

“Bent the knee to the king” Really??

Get over yourself.

Pre-ban braces are going to be the new ultimate virtue signal.

You're the one arguing that they are connected. It is the whole basis for your contention that we somehow harmed the cause. Your argument goes like this "a cow farted in Il and a volcano went off in Maui, therefore the volcano went off because the cow farted. Point out where "will not be bribed" or ANY reference to the numbers that registered or didn't is in there for us:

In their Motion for Summary Judgment, Plaintiffs claim that the Final Rule violated the APA's procedural requirements because: (1) it was not a logical outgrowth of the Proposed Rule;7 (2) Defendants acted arbitrarily when they failed to consider important aspects of the problems presented and caused by the Final Rule; (3) Defendants impermissibly extended their statutory authority under the National Firearms Act of 1934 ("NFA") and the Gun Control Act of 1968 ("GCA"); and (4) it violates various aspects of the United States Constitution.8

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/firearmspolicycoalition/pages/6710/attachments/original/1718287457/2024.06.13_110_OPINION.pdf?1718287457

The ATF did not mind in any way that you didn't register - it worked toward their agenda of making you a felon. You didn't "tell them" anything.

This

Second.

Somebody, please explain what "arbitrary & capricious" means
(pulling stuff out of your ass?)

and what about this thing they referred to "ab initio" ?
"An illegitimate agency action is void ab initio and therefore cannot be remanded as there is nothing for the agency to justify."

That's my favorite part of the ruling, where the judge calls out the ATF for being inconsistent. It's the judicial way of calling them power hungry tyrants and dog killers.

Arbitrary

1a existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of willan arbitrary choice
When a task is not seen in a meaningful context it is experienced as being arbitrary.
—Nehemiah Jordan
b based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something
an arbitrary standard
take any arbitrary positive number

2a not restrained or limited in the exercise of power : ruling by absolute authority
an arbitrary government
bmarked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power
protection from arbitrary arrest and detention

3 law : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law
The manner of punishment is arbitrary.

Capricious- governed or characterized by caprice : IMPULSIVE, UNPREDICTABLE

Caprice

a
: a sudden, impulsive, and seemingly unmotivated notion or action
policy changes that seem to be motivated by nothing more than caprice
b
: a sudden usually unpredictable condition, change, or series of changes
the caprices of the weather
2
: a disposition to do things impulsively

This thread seemed to be teetering on everyone stopping the name-calling.  Then this clown posted up.

Nice timing huh.

Ab initio means from the beginning.

I.e. (which means id est/that is) it was never a valid rule.

I  just love hearing it again and again

flat pulled it outta their ass, was it?

That's awesome.

I found it strange and unlikely, that a guy who takes the time to read the ruling, doesn't know what those words mean in context.

I know that ab initio in the aviation world means no knowledge and or experience in being trained to become a pilot.

Some airlines in Europe offer ab initio training to groom pilots to learn nothing but that airlines ways of flying and doctrine.

We won!  Bottom line!  
And my braces never moved. They’re still a plastic accessory.

2 years of Latin and I speak pretty good Spanish,  less than fluent

But it's been sooo long since I've heard anything so sexy

Capricious is goat-like, erratic, impulsive.  Same root as Capricorn. Or they smell like goats.  Caproic and capryllic acids smell pretty rancid.

Damn guys!  Can we just get over the infighting?  We won. This small battle. We meaning gun owners, brace owners, sbr registers, etc.  

It tears me up seeing us fight like this. Same team guys. Same team. Past is the past and folks made their choice. Let us not be devided over such matters.

Take the win and press onward. But I beg you, do not shame nor hinder any supporter of 2a. We knew that was bullshit, but don’t you dare be divided. I stand with all, we are one.

3rd......it's a win and everyone should brace all the things and enjoy it

Samuel Adams had a different opinion on the subject.

However, it's 2024... participation trophies and all that. Perhaps we should enable capitulators after the fact so that nobody gets their fee-fees hurt. That won't end badly when the next challenge presents itself. No sir-ee!

But, I do agree that the purse swinging should probably end here in this thread. Perhaps someone will start a thread dedicated to giving lumps to those who chose poorly and the poor sods can attempt to justify as best they can in that thread.

ETA: However, the No True Scotsman, WhatAboutism, and Hello Fellow Gun Owner in this thread was at glorious levels.

This sounds like "My decision to partake back then in the illegal rule pretending to be law was justified because we eventually won when the illegal rule was recently vacated". The situation you partook in was ruled illegal, I don't understand the logic.

Many folks just said, "Yeah, I wanted the Free SBR" and moved on.    Continuing the "nothing you or I did changes anything" is a very strange message to send.  It seems to me that having so many people (and dollars) push back seems to have put this issue in the forefront, and that contributed to why this rule was shot down so quickly.  Remember, multiple injunctions were already in place when the enforcement period started.  Mass outrage and non-compliance is you get Congress quickly involved, and two dozen states filing suit against the ATF, and county Sheriffs saying they won't enforce the pistol brace ban.

Your comment exact comment of:

Is just....
So what did registering tell them?

You know what, never mind.  No need to answer.  We've gone back and forth enough.

This horse is dead, dead, dead, was resuscitated, then beat to death again.   I agree to disagree.


We shall all enjoy our weapons, and I'm glad no one is a felon.  

Some held the line. Some capitulated.

All I’m saying is let us not fight each other over a BS atf ruling  stand as one.

We don’t fight each other. Same team.

I cannot disagree with that.

I'll let it die in the interests of the other posters.

This is not a capitulation though

Holy purse swinging cunts.

We really are our own worst enemy. Percent yourselves ??

I think it means "from the start".  But I am not a lawyer and didn't pay attention in Latin class.

You're correct.
The literal translation is "from inception".

It’s obviously rhetorical, I’m not looking to get anyone to incriminate themselves.   Merely pointing out that the vast majority here running their mouth have also “bent the knee to the king.”

The only people, that I have taken issue with were in the early days of pistols. All the dudes who said things like "those should be illegal" and "It's just side stepping the law, you will just anger the ATF and antis it will be bad for everyone..." Fuck those guys. Fudds. Because the name of the game for getting back and preserving our rights in this Republic is common use.

Some of us realized, that the more pistols were bought, and the longer it went on, it would eventually become an impossible genie for the ATF to put back into the bottle. And now it could even be the impetus of shutting down even more of the NFA. The ATF has tried and spectacularly failed to undo pistol braces.

For all my brothers who bought pistols, you have supported a long developing victory for winning back some of our rights stolen as far back as 1934. Well done. The more people buy and normalize pistols, SBRs and suppressors, the harder it is to regulate and restrict them. AR SBRs and braced pistols are the best choice for modern home defense. Now we can move forward with continuing to sell them and normalize them as such. We can ensure that no one in our government, for generations can realistically hope to end our rights to these important firearms.

Without

AR15's
30 round or greater magazines
AR pistols / SBRs
Suppressors
Night vision, body armor and lasers

We have not secured the right for the citizens to be effectively armed for the purposes of the 2A. We require at least a semblance of the same basic equipment police and military use, to resist tyranny. If we lose access to it, like the AWB... We have surrendered the 2A.

Attached File

Agreed,

I cannot stress enough how happy I was when the rule was vacated, nor just how BIG this victory was.    When was the last time there was a 2A victory this swift and decisive?  There wasn't just user support, there was heavy industry support, gun group support, state support, and congressional support.

The AFT has been steadily overreaching with there expanding definitions, but it turns out pistol braces were the straw the broke the camels to back in terms of pure grass roots support standpoint.  One overreach too far.

On January 13th 2023, the AFT announced the pistol brace rule that they pulled out of their ass.
The rule went into effect January 31st 2023.
The rule enforcement date started May 31st 2023.
By May 31st, 2023, three different gun groups, the state employees of TX, and Maxim had already secured injunctions against ban.
By November 9th, 2023, a rare nationwide injunction had been granted.
On June 13th, 2024 a mere 17 months from the time the the BS was first coughed up, the courts vacated the rule because it violated the APA and was also vague and capricious.

From a judicial standpoint, that was lightening fast beat down. Couple that with Cargill a day later, in it is save to say our voices have been heard.  

ATF, STOP THE OVERREACH!

I guess you showed them. I'm assuming that you've never filled out a 4473, thus your sense of superiority.

     Justify what you like but he was right and you’re irrelevant.
4473 has been around before I was born.  The 4473 is a lost fight from a different generation. It’s from a time where most gun owners didn’t view the government as tyrants.
  Put another way.  I never bent the knee as far as a 4473 form goes.  It was bent for before I was born and I never had a say.
That’s not the case on the brace issue.  The free SBR was bait for fools to take.