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Posted: 12/30/2019 6:47:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another case of how a metal magazine allows for a thinner grip. ETA - I also notice they ditched the almost-painful pointed grip stippling FN loves so damn much |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:05:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure size and cost had much to do with it. Would FN sell mags to Ruger to use in a competing gun? Pro Mags might have been an option but Pro Mag... |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:07:12 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Grip width was never the issue, though; that Ruger's gotta feel like holding a fence-board. ETA - I also notice they ditched the almost-painful pointed grip stippling FN loves so damn much Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another case of how a metal magazine allows for a thinner grip. ETA - I also notice they ditched the almost-painful pointed grip stippling FN loves so damn much |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:29:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote History |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:42:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure what you mean. The metal magazines are thinner which equals a thinner grip. It's the reason why the grips on Glocks are thicker than they need to be. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 7:54:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any improvement in ergonomics over the FN is going to require a new magazine. FN maga are huge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm not sure what you mean. The metal magazines are thinner which equals a thinner grip. It's the reason why the grips on Glocks are thicker than they need to be. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 8:24:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any improvement in ergonomics over the FN is going to require a new magazine. FN maga are huge. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm not sure what you mean. The metal magazines are thinner which equals a thinner grip. It's the reason why the grips on Glocks are thicker than they need to be. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 8:49:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9x25 Dillon.... 95gr @2k fps factory loading. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 8:59:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:00:32 PM EDT
[#10]
Yup, that's why I didn't mention the 9x25
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:04:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B6tdLK2pOsp/?igshid=wty1huepx4fz Someone make this hot if it’s not already. Thanks. Interdasting. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:06:36 PM EDT
[#12]
I would like a colt 1911 with this round
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:13:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Looks to have an RMR cut. That's very nice!
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:17:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Hopefully the Ruger will come in affordable, This could be a real plus to the 5.7 market,Time will tell..
Excel Arms has a PCC 5.7 uses FN Five-seven mags. 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:19:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully the Ruger will come in affordable, This could be a real plus to the 5.7 market,Time will tell.. Excel Arms has a PCC 5.7 uses FN Five-seven mags. http://www.excelarms.com/images/x-57.jpg Nice first post. Welcome or welcome back |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:29:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now source some, and a conversation kit or pistol changed in it... doesn't seem all easy to do. I think there's a handful of boutique ammo suppliers but it seems to be a reloaders caliber now. And that's only relevant if you can find something chambered in it! I went looking last year and came up dry unless I wanted to spend an absurd amount. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. 9x25 Dillon barrel Those were the first hits for each in my web search. I did not bother to look further. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:32:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looks awesome! Definitely interested in that. Nice first post. Welcome or welcome back Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hopefully the Ruger will come in affordable, This could be a real plus to the 5.7 market,Time will tell.. Excel Arms has a PCC 5.7 uses FN Five-seven mags. http://www.excelarms.com/images/x-57.jpg Nice first post. Welcome or welcome back |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 9:33:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now source some, and a conversation kit or pistol changed in it... doesn't seem all easy to do. I think there's a handful of boutique ammo suppliers but it seems to be a reloaders caliber now. And that's only relevant if you can find something chambered in it! I went looking last year and came up dry unless I wanted to spend an absurd amount. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. https://www.glockstore.com/Bar-Sto-Conversion-Barrels |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 10:31:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 10:45:26 PM EDT
[#20]
I would totally buy a 5.7x28 hand gun! The FN fivesevern just costs to much at $1100-1300. I'm sure its a nice gun but that is a lot for a any hand gun.
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Posted: 12/30/2019 10:45:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a wildcat, but .22 Reed Express is 7.62 Tok brass necked down to take a .223/5.56 projectile. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. 
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Posted: 12/30/2019 10:49:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That looks awesome! Definitely interested in that. Nice first post. Welcome or welcome back Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hopefully the Ruger will come in affordable, This could be a real plus to the 5.7 market,Time will tell.. Excel Arms has a PCC 5.7 uses FN Five-seven mags. http://www.excelarms.com/images/x-57.jpg Nice first post. Welcome or welcome back |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:16:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png Just $35 for a 50 rd mag! |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:24:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since .22 TCM is made out of .223 brass, it's basically the .22 reed express. The case is 5.56x26mm, whereas .22 Reed is based on a 25mm casing. Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg As you said, in 9mm/40 handguns it's handicapped, and it's not like the 1911 is ideal either. Even then, the cost of their conversion kits is a little steep last time I looked. Might as well just buy he fiveseven at that point. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:36:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As was mentioned above, it appears that Speer is going to offer a Gold Dot loading in 5.7x28 using a NICKEL PLATED case. https://i.imgur.com/wYRa9Wo.png |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:38:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2k is what I see the most, but I think in real life it’s not any hard and fast number. Surely that depends on what considers “tearing” and on the characteristics of the particular tissue itself. Surely that number varies. I think the more important takeaway is that there is a point that tissue can no longer stretch and one gets considerably more wounding potential, and that number is somewhere in the high teens to low 2k range. ETA I’ve shot things with projectiles that chronod in the 1700ish ballpark and was very unimpressed with their performance on tissue. Everything I’ve shot in the low 2k range and above got pretty uniformly fucked up. For example, I would think that a projectile of 0.01 inches diameter hitting tissue at even 2800 fps is almost certainly not going to cause a permanent wound cavity, and probably not even a temporary wound cavity, because the incredibly narrow frontal area means that an equivalently incredibly small amount of tissue is being displaced by its motion. |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:42:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since .22 TCM is made out of .223 brass, it's basically the .22 reed express. The case is 5.56x26mm, whereas .22 Reed is based on a 25mm casing. Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:47:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 12/30/2019 11:49:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:03:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since .22 TCM is made out of .223 brass, it's basically the .22 reed express. The case is 5.56x26mm, whereas .22 Reed is based on a 25mm casing. Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:07:31 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/239906/20191206_115644_jpg-1214790.JPG 
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:10:24 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/239906/20191206_115644_jpg-1214790.JPG |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:14:59 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Theoretically, the 2200/2000/etc debate should vary depending on the diameter of the projectile. How quickly a projectile displaces material in front of it is a function of its velocity and its frontal surface area. A .22 inch diameter projectile and a .30 inch diameter projectile traveling at the same velocity will not be displacing material at the same rate. For example, I would think that a projectile of 0.01 inches diameter hitting tissue at even 2800 fps is almost certainly not going to cause a permanent wound cavity, and probably not even a temporary wound cavity, because the incredibly narrow frontal area means that an equivalently incredibly small amount of tissue is being displaced by its motion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
2k is what I see the most, but I think in real life it’s not any hard and fast number. Surely that depends on what considers “tearing” and on the characteristics of the particular tissue itself. Surely that number varies. I think the more important takeaway is that there is a point that tissue can no longer stretch and one gets considerably more wounding potential, and that number is somewhere in the high teens to low 2k range. ETA I’ve shot things with projectiles that chronod in the 1700ish ballpark and was very unimpressed with their performance on tissue. Everything I’ve shot in the low 2k range and above got pretty uniformly fucked up. For example, I would think that a projectile of 0.01 inches diameter hitting tissue at even 2800 fps is almost certainly not going to cause a permanent wound cavity, and probably not even a temporary wound cavity, because the incredibly narrow frontal area means that an equivalently incredibly small amount of tissue is being displaced by its motion. This occurs through expansion, fragmentation, or through the projectile turning sideways and beginning to tumble. If we're talking rifle FMJ projectiles (5.45/5.56/7.62/.308) - these projectiles are imparting little wounding until they begin to tumble. Famously, this was observed in the 'fleet yaw' studies that resulted in the replacement of M855 with M855A1. In the top image, we can see a projectile that 'tumbles late' - note that despite the M855 impacting at 3000fps, its doing almost nothing more then .22lr until the projectile begins to tumble ~8" into the block. 
Likewise, there's the case of the ACR flechette. Frontal diameter is only 1.6mm - basically a flying small nail - but when tumbling: 
Frontal area will have some effect - a wider expanding JSP will produce more damage then a narrower expanding JSP of the same energy; a 1.2" long bullet that tumbles does more damage then a 0.7" tumbling bullet of the same energy, etc. But I suspect overall projectile energy will have more of an effect then frontal area or velocity. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:20:45 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/239906/20191206_115644_jpg-1214790.JPG |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:25:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Since .22 TCM is made out of .223 brass, it's basically the .22 reed express. The case is 5.56x26mm, whereas .22 Reed is based on a 25mm casing. Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg Two of it's other many strengths are mix and match and versatility. THEARGUY and RMW XTREME make DI uppers in TCM. Arfcommers have feed them from Glock mags in Glock lowers and PPS-43 and M1 Carbine mags using mag block adapters in standard lowers. Those mags allowed advancements like Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades, Hornady 35gr and 40gr V-max and Midway 36gr Dog Towns to name a few that have been used with good success. One strength that stands out among it's others is that factory powder, factory brass, factory projectiles and load data to duplicate factory ammo is readily available. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:26:17 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.22 Reed Express will work in a CZ24 magazine (there's an arfcommer who has a .22 Reed Express AR upper, and he uses the CZ24 mags). The CZ24 uses a double stack magazine that is inserted into the pistol grip, so the same should be possible in a conventional handgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg 
Perhaps MPA might be interested? |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:29:10 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.22 Hornet and 218 Bee bullets. Two of it's other many strengths are mix and match and versatility. THEARGUY and RMW XTREME make DI uppers in TCM. Arfcommers have feed them from Glock mags in Glock lowers and PPS-43 and M1 Carbine mags using mag block adapters in standard lowers. Those mags allowed advancements like Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades, Hornady 35gr and 40gr V-max and Midway 36gr Dog Towns to name a few that have been used with good success. One strength that stands out among it's others is that factory powder, factory brass, factory projectiles and load data to duplicate factory ammo is readily available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg Two of it's other many strengths are mix and match and versatility. THEARGUY and RMW XTREME make DI uppers in TCM. Arfcommers have feed them from Glock mags in Glock lowers and PPS-43 and M1 Carbine mags using mag block adapters in standard lowers. Those mags allowed advancements like Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades, Hornady 35gr and 40gr V-max and Midway 36gr Dog Towns to name a few that have been used with good success. One strength that stands out among it's others is that factory powder, factory brass, factory projectiles and load data to duplicate factory ammo is readily available. I'm not at all against the caliber, just that it could be so much better (and an unrivaled performer) if we could get mags that would allow the use of 5.7 spitzer projectiles. That said, I'd absolutely love love love to see something like the Glock 48 in .22 TCM. I wonder if the new G48 Metal mags allow a longer COL to fit .22 TCM, or if it would be stuck using the .22TCM9R? |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:44:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/239906/20191206_115644_jpg-1214790.JPG Q: Is it pure blow back or locked breach delayed ? |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:46:17 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The thing about frontal area is that in order for any projectile to dump its energy rapidly, the frontal area has to change upon impact. This is the 'parachute' effect that causes a high velocity projectile to rapidly loose speed and transfer energy. This occurs through expansion, fragmentation, or through the projectile turning sideways and beginning to tumble. If we're talking rifle FMJ projectiles (5.45/5.56/7.62/.308) - these projectiles are imparting little wounding until they begin to tumble. Famously, this was observed in the 'fleet yaw' studies that resulted in the replacement of M855 with M855A1. In the top image, we can see a projectile that 'tumbles late' - note that despite the M855 impacting at 3000fps, its doing almost nothing more then .22lr until the projectile begins to tumble ~8" into the block. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/Zhukov/FleetYaw2.jpg Likewise, there's the case of the ACR flechette. Frontal diameter is only 1.6mm - basically a flying small nail - but when tumbling: https://i.ibb.co/Bwd0HNc/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-7-57-11-PM.png Frontal area will have some effect - a wider expanding JSP will produce more damage then a narrower expanding JSP of the same energy; a 1.2" long bullet that tumbles does more damage then a 0.7" tumbling bullet of the same energy, etc. But I suspect overall projectile energy will have more of an effect then frontal area or velocity. But if the conversation is about what the velocity threshhold is before you start seeing permanent wound cavities, then I would think that the cavity depends on how much material is being shoved out of the way and how quickly it's being shoved, which should be a function of both velocity and cross sectional area. The cross sectional area determinea how much material is being displaced, and the velocity determines how fast it is being displaced. So even within softpoints and hollowpoints, bigger bullets should be capable of achieving greater expanded frontal areas, which should means that they require less velocity to acheive permanent cavities than smaller bullets with smaller expanded frontal areas. Another poster mentioned shotgun slugs. They don't travel very fast, but they still create hige wound cavities, which is probably because they make up for lack of velocity with a very wide frontal area. My more fundamental point being that just because bullet A requires velocity X to create permanent stretch cavities doesn't mean the same velocity X will allow bullet B to create permanent stretch cavities. The threahhold for bullet B might be velocity Y. And I think the difference is probably due to differences in displacement if tissue. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:55:23 AM EDT
[#40]
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Yes, .22 TCM defintiely has the advantage in guns and reloading. I'm not at all against the caliber, just that it could be so much better (and an unrivaled performer) if we could get mags that would allow the use of 5.7 spitzer projectiles. That said, I'd absolutely love love love to see something like the Glock 48 in .22 TCM. I wonder if the new G48 Metal mags allow a longer COL to fit .22 TCM, or if it would be stuck using the .22TCM9R? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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i spent too many hours last night studying 7.62 Tok, 357 Sig, and 22 TCM. It seems 22 TCM is the only one that gets to 2000 fps, which seems to be the threshold of "rifle type" wounding from a conventional handgun. that and the 28 gr 5.7. but the 22 TCM does not have spitzer type bullets, just a blunt lead round nose. a nickel plated 5.7 case with a spitzer type solid bullet doing 2000 fps+ would be tits. Some people cut .223 Rem brass down and re-neck it, then fire form it, instead of using 7.62 Tok brass, allowing it to be used with standard .223 Rem bolts (also provides a little more piece of mind, if you want to push the pressures higher, when loading it for a rifle). Ultimately whats needed is a longer COL magazine to fire .22 TCM out of using Spitzer projectiles. A polymer frame 1911 that uses Coonan .357 Magnum magazines would be able to fit. But ideally a purpose built, double stack / 1.5 stack mag would be created. As it is, .22 TCM's greatest strength - it fits in .45/9mm gun - is its greatest weakness, in that it limits it to firing .22 mag projectiles. https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/HL-0617-4.jpg Two of it's other many strengths are mix and match and versatility. THEARGUY and RMW XTREME make DI uppers in TCM. Arfcommers have feed them from Glock mags in Glock lowers and PPS-43 and M1 Carbine mags using mag block adapters in standard lowers. Those mags allowed advancements like Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenades, Hornady 35gr and 40gr V-max and Midway 36gr Dog Towns to name a few that have been used with good success. One strength that stands out among it's others is that factory powder, factory brass, factory projectiles and load data to duplicate factory ammo is readily available. I'm not at all against the caliber, just that it could be so much better (and an unrivaled performer) if we could get mags that would allow the use of 5.7 spitzer projectiles. That said, I'd absolutely love love love to see something like the Glock 48 in .22 TCM. I wonder if the new G48 Metal mags allow a longer COL to fit .22 TCM, or if it would be stuck using the .22TCM9R? I'd absolutely love to see 5.7 projectiles for sale. FN not releasing the lighter bullets for sale to hand loaders and ammo manufacturers coupled with the current prices of 5.7 ammo are hamstringing the round in the marketplace. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:55:26 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 12/31/2019 12:56:06 AM EDT
[#42]
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How was the weight comparison to the FN? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Been away from here for a few days and had been waiting for Ruger to announce this gun. I've actually handled this gun and gotta say it feels a lot better in the hand then the FN. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/239906/20191206_115644_jpg-1214790.JPG |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:02:38 AM EDT
[#43]
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Ruger makes good bolt rifles, 22 rifles and pistols, and revolvers. Semi-auto pistols in any caliber other than 22LR are not their forte Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The only thing that could make the FiveseveN pistol less appealing is if it was made by Ruger |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:13:21 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 I'd absolutely love to see 5.7 projectiles for sale. FN not releasing the lighter bullets for sale to hand loaders and ammo manufacturers coupled with the current prices of 5.7 ammo are hamstringing the round in the marketplace. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:17:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I understand that the point of softpoints, hollowpoints, and bullets that tumble is that the frontal surface area changes after impacting the target, which therefor changes how much material is displaced as it moves. A characteristic that you don't want mid flight, but do want inside tissue. But if the conversation is about what the velocity threshhold is before you start seeing permanent wound cavities, then I would think that the cavity depends on how much material is being shoved out of the way and how quickly it's being shoved, which should be a function of both velocity and cross sectional area. The cross sectional area determinea how much material is being displaced, and the velocity determines how fast it is being displaced. So even within softpoints and hollowpoints, bigger bullets should be capable of achieving greater expanded frontal areas, which should means that they require less velocity to acheive permanent cavities than smaller bullets with smaller expanded frontal areas. Another poster mentioned shotgun slugs. They don't travel very fast, but they still create hige wound cavities, which is probably because they make up for lack of velocity with a very wide frontal area. My more fundamental point being that just because bullet A requires velocity X to create permanent stretch cavities doesn't mean the same velocity X will allow bullet B to create permanent stretch cavities. The threahhold for bullet B might be velocity Y. And I think the difference is probably due to differences in displacement if tissue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The thing about frontal area is that in order for any projectile to dump its energy rapidly, the frontal area has to change upon impact. This is the 'parachute' effect that causes a high velocity projectile to rapidly loose speed and transfer energy. This occurs through expansion, fragmentation, or through the projectile turning sideways and beginning to tumble. If we're talking rifle FMJ projectiles (5.45/5.56/7.62/.308) - these projectiles are imparting little wounding until they begin to tumble. Famously, this was observed in the 'fleet yaw' studies that resulted in the replacement of M855 with M855A1. In the top image, we can see a projectile that 'tumbles late' - note that despite the M855 impacting at 3000fps, its doing almost nothing more then .22lr until the projectile begins to tumble ~8" into the block. https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Misc_Images/Zhukov/FleetYaw2.jpg Likewise, there's the case of the ACR flechette. Frontal diameter is only 1.6mm - basically a flying small nail - but when tumbling: https://i.ibb.co/Bwd0HNc/Screen-Shot-2019-12-30-at-7-57-11-PM.png Frontal area will have some effect - a wider expanding JSP will produce more damage then a narrower expanding JSP of the same energy; a 1.2" long bullet that tumbles does more damage then a 0.7" tumbling bullet of the same energy, etc. But I suspect overall projectile energy will have more of an effect then frontal area or velocity. But if the conversation is about what the velocity threshhold is before you start seeing permanent wound cavities, then I would think that the cavity depends on how much material is being shoved out of the way and how quickly it's being shoved, which should be a function of both velocity and cross sectional area. The cross sectional area determinea how much material is being displaced, and the velocity determines how fast it is being displaced. So even within softpoints and hollowpoints, bigger bullets should be capable of achieving greater expanded frontal areas, which should means that they require less velocity to acheive permanent cavities than smaller bullets with smaller expanded frontal areas. Another poster mentioned shotgun slugs. They don't travel very fast, but they still create hige wound cavities, which is probably because they make up for lack of velocity with a very wide frontal area. My more fundamental point being that just because bullet A requires velocity X to create permanent stretch cavities doesn't mean the same velocity X will allow bullet B to create permanent stretch cavities. The threahhold for bullet B might be velocity Y. And I think the difference is probably due to differences in displacement if tissue. But as I touched on earlier, larger projectiles almost always come with correspondingly more energy. .224 62gr @ 1700fps = 400 ftlbs .308 147gr @ 17000fps = 900 ft/lbs .72 438gr @ 1600fps = 2500 ft/lbs My argument is that if we're seeing a difference in 'minimum rifle velocity' between .224 / .308 / 12 gauge, thats due to larger projectiles having much more weight (and therefore, much more energy), not due to them having a wider frontal area. That said, I would absolutely love to see a true scientific test of the frontal area theory. We would need to control for weight to keep energy identical; so say a 62gr solid copper .224 @ 1700fps vs say a Aluminum 62gr .308 @ 1700fps. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:21:37 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this thing is real and priced under $500 I'll be in. The last few years have been lackluster with new gun releases and this year SHOT show is still a month away and we've already got the HK SP5, Colt Python, and now possibly this. Guess I'll have to buy a nicely balanced 4" blue version. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:27:39 AM EDT
[#47]
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On the flip side you can find pulled SS190 black tip promos for fair prices... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: +1 I'd absolutely love to see 5.7 projectiles for sale. FN not releasing the lighter bullets for sale to hand loaders and ammo manufacturers coupled with the current prices of 5.7 ammo are hamstringing the round in the marketplace. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:30:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree that we're likely to see different velocity thresholds for different projectiles. But as I touched on earlier, larger projectiles almost always come with correspondingly more energy. .224 62gr @ 1700fps = 400 ftlbs .308 147gr @ 17000fps = 900 ft/lbs .72 438gr @ 1600fps = 2500 ft/lbs My argument is that if we're seeing a difference in 'minimum rifle velocity' between .224 / .308 / 12 gauge, thats due to larger projectiles having much more weight (and therefore, much more energy), not due to them having a wider frontal area. That said, I would absolutely love to see a true scientific test of the frontal area theory. We would need to control for weight to keep energy identical; so say a 62gr solid copper .224 @ 1700fps vs say a Aluminum 62gr .308 @ 1700fps. I would think this could be tested easier by comparing the same weight RN bullets to Spitzer in the same caliber & loaded to the same velocity. That would seem to follow the common use of round nose and flat nose bullets for large dangerous game at short range despite similar spitzer options being available. |
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:34:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully the Ruger will come in affordable, This could be a real plus to the 5.7 market,Time will tell.. Excel Arms has a PCC 5.7 uses FN Five-seven mags. http://www.excelarms.com/images/x-57.jpg  tell when someone picks up production of the AR57 line.PS90 mags > FNS57 mags and the 12 incher was the tits. No doubt Cmmg is good stuff and I dont know about Excel but they missed the mark for a PDW that a 12 inch AR57 with a Law folder tickles 
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Posted: 12/31/2019 1:39:52 AM EDT
[#50]
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A very fast perusal of the interwebs says this cartridge is a bear to handload ..but once you get tooled up for it, it's not much different than anything else. |
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