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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:28:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice. So the evolution is from shotgun, to AR, to AR, to ...pony? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/281590/DFDE9755-EA5D-4C4F-8847-2DB87E8E58D4_jpe-2274602.JPG I call this picture, “The Evolution of Someone Who Actually Shoots and Trains” ???? Nice. So the evolution is from shotgun, to AR, to AR, to ...pony? I was going to say boots … |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:29:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The issue I have with shotguns for self defense is what if I have to shoot more than 5-8 times? I'd rather have to fumble with one thing under stress every 30 shots than have to fumble with 5-8 things every 5-8 shots. That problem is easily solved with a VEPR 12 or SAIGA. ?????? |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:32:41 PM EDT
[#3]
I wonder how many home invasions in the past 20 years were unsuccessfully repelled by a shotgun wielding homeowner that ran out of rounds,failed to penetrate body armor,was overwhelmed by a squad of attackers.
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:32:56 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:36:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn’t watch the video and don’t care. Run what you know best for home defense. I have had training on shotguns and shoot them in 3 guns but would not use one for HD. I find them to be slow to operate and more prone to malfunctions in my experience. I will use my AR as I feel it gives me the best chance of winning a gun fight. I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Only twice have I seen one malfunction, when an extractor broke, and the other was a torsion bar. They are not my first choice, but they are fast and reliable if you train with it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:48:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see them make it up the L-shaped stairs to the second floor through a hail of 00 Buck and slugs I can fire one shot and put 41 .24 cal holes in the kill zone with my 12 ga. Its called #4 Buckshot 3" magnum loads. I can educate people on what the shotgun can do. I can even teach limp shouldered recoil shy how to shoot a shotgun. But I cant fix stupid. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:49:23 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:50:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Pretty sure infantry isn't issued shotguns due to international treaties. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 8:52:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder how many home invasions in the past 20 years were unsuccessfully repelled by a shotgun wielding homeowner that ran out of rounds,failed to penetrate body armor,was overwhelmed by a squad of attackers. Probably zero |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:00:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That problem is easily solved with a VEPR 12 or SAIGA. ?????? I don’t think I’ve seen one that wasn’t a Dissident make it all the way through a match without choking. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:01:59 PM EDT
[#11]
Shotgun positives.
1) They're cheap. Off the shelf, about $225.00 new for a shotgun that you really don't need to buy anything else for, in order to be able to use. 2) No 'How do I zero this gun?' Look down the barrel, put the bead on the target, blast and shuck shuck. 3) The King of one shot stops. Will drop a perp like crumpled newspaper. 4) They are really reliable. They just work. 5) No magazines, or anything else to buy. Just load the tube and go. Shotgun Negatives. 1) Most only hold between 5 and 8 rounds. That's not a lot of ammo. 2) They're long, and heavy, especially when loaded. 3) They are limited in range. 4) They kick like a rented mule. 5) Anything but a single point sling can foul the action. I tried to think of SBR negatives. I really can't. With the right ammo, they just rule for home defense. Mag changes are easy, ammo is lightweight, accessories aren't nearly an issue. They're shorter, more usable in tight quarters, and they are sexy. I really do love the shotgun, because they are so capable, and I wouldn't feel outgunned if it was all I could have. Any M4 platform is just leagues better at almost everything, except maybe breaching. If you have the budget, and are willing to train, the AR is much much better for everything. It just is. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:03:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't own a shotgun... yet Yet Once you start getting into clay shooting you will own many |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:10:51 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would be careful about using Supressed SBRs for HD. -if you have to shoot, your firearm will(depending on state/local area) possibly be taken into custody as evidence. You stand a good chance of never getting it back/“it vanished from the evidence locker”; never underestimate how much never gets back to their owners. -if your local DA has any liberal tendencies, you will get the “he used an eeevil weapon of war! It has a silencer on it, so it is obvious he wants to commit crimes”. And you can bet your ass the family will try to use it against you in civil court. Not this shit again.... On the extremely unlikely chance of this, being out 2k is the least of your problems. Also- easily alleviated by introducing into evidence photos of multiple police agencies using SBR’s with suppressors... |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:13:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotgun positives. 1) They're cheap. Off the shelf, about $225.00 new for a shotgun that you really don't need to buy anything else for, in order to be able to use. 2) No 'How do I zero this gun?' Look down the barrel, put the bead on the target, blast and shuck shuck. 3) The King of one shot stops. Will drop a perp like crumpled newspaper. 4) They are really reliable. They just work. 5) No magazines, or anything else to buy. Just load the tube and go. Shotgun Negatives. 1) Most only hold between 5 and 8 rounds. That's not a lot of ammo. 2) They're long, and heavy, especially when loaded. 3) They are limited in range. 4) They kick like a rented mule. 5) Anything but a single point sling can foul the action. I tried to think of SBR negatives. I really can't. With the right ammo, they just rule for home defense. Mag changes are easy, ammo is lightweight, accessories aren't nearly an issue. They're shorter, more usable in tight quarters, and they are sexy. I really do love the shotgun, because they are so capable, and I wouldn't feel outgunned if it was all I could have. Any M4 platform is just leagues better at almost everything, except maybe breaching. If you have the budget, and are willing to train, the AR is much much better for everything. It just is. For one - whether one is defending or attacking. For another, selection of arms and ammunition constrained by international treaty and existing inventories. For a third, the presence or absence of backup. For a third, the likelyhood that the party defending the structure has advance warning and help. For a fourth, the availability of the home attackers to have artillery, air, back-up teams. For a fifth, the desire, or lack their of, of the attackers to take someone in the dwelling alive for intelligence purposes. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:16:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For one - whether one is defending or attacking. For another, selection of arms and ammunition constrained by international treaty and existing inventories. For a third, the presence or absence of backup. For a third, the likelyhood that the party defending the structure has advance warning and help. For a fourth, the availability of the home attackers to have artillery, air, back-up teams. For a fifth, the desire, or lack their of, of the attackers to take someone in the dwelling alive for intelligence purposes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Shotgun positives. 1) They're cheap. Off the shelf, about $225.00 new for a shotgun that you really don't need to buy anything else for, in order to be able to use. 2) No 'How do I zero this gun?' Look down the barrel, put the bead on the target, blast and shuck shuck. 3) The King of one shot stops. Will drop a perp like crumpled newspaper. 4) They are really reliable. They just work. 5) No magazines, or anything else to buy. Just load the tube and go. Shotgun Negatives. 1) Most only hold between 5 and 8 rounds. That's not a lot of ammo. 2) They're long, and heavy, especially when loaded. 3) They are limited in range. 4) They kick like a rented mule. 5) Anything but a single point sling can foul the action. I tried to think of SBR negatives. I really can't. With the right ammo, they just rule for home defense. Mag changes are easy, ammo is lightweight, accessories aren't nearly an issue. They're shorter, more usable in tight quarters, and they are sexy. I really do love the shotgun, because they are so capable, and I wouldn't feel outgunned if it was all I could have. Any M4 platform is just leagues better at almost everything, except maybe breaching. If you have the budget, and are willing to train, the AR is much much better for everything. It just is. For one - whether one is defending or attacking. For another, selection of arms and ammunition constrained by international treaty and existing inventories. For a third, the presence or absence of backup. For a third, the likelyhood that the party defending the structure has advance warning and help. For a fourth, the availability of the home attackers to have artillery, air, back-up teams. For a fifth, the desire, or lack their of, of the attackers to take someone in the dwelling alive for intelligence purposes. Sorry, I am not sure exactly what you are trying to address? |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:17:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The real down side is for pumps having to use two hands. Its real advantageous to be able to use one hand to operate your weapon if you have to. Plenty of shootings end up with people shot through the wrist arm and hand. Because thats whats in front of you. having to use both if someone is shooting back is not ideal. I still have an hd pump shotgun and wouldn't hesitate to use it but a high capacity semi auto is better no matter what platform. Yep. Happens a fair amount. And running a shotgun one handed is a bitch. Totally possible, assuming you have trained on it. Everyone trains to run all their firearms one handed- right? Right?? Well you should. Get some training people...you can run pistols, rifles, and shotguns all one handed if needed, clear malfunctions, reload, etc. But I guarantee if a gunfight is the first time you do it you will wish you had training. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:17:13 PM EDT
[#17]
But what about the "tossing against a steel plate" test? Everyone knows that's a requirement for a reasonable testing regimen
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:17:16 PM EDT
[#18]
 mag change after 5 or 10 rnds depending on what you start with. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:18:48 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Only twice have I seen one malfunction, when an extractor broke, and the other was a torsion bar. They are not my first choice, but they are fast and reliable if you train with it. That’s why I said in my experience. I have a broken 870 sitting in the safe right now. As a RSO I seen them fail/malfunction and watched them fail/malfunction in training classes. I have seen more 1911s malfunction then anything else oh. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:21:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Only twice have I seen one malfunction, when an extractor broke, and the other was a torsion bar. They are not my first choice, but they are fast and reliable if you train with it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Didn’t watch the video and don’t care. Run what you know best for home defense. I have had training on shotguns and shoot them in 3 guns but would not use one for HD. I find them to be slow to operate and more prone to malfunctions in my experience. I will use my AR as I feel it gives me the best chance of winning a gun fight. I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Only twice have I seen one malfunction, when an extractor broke, and the other was a torsion bar. They are not my first choice, but they are fast and reliable if you train with it. Shotgun malfunctions are almost always user induced.... And I have broken shotguns, and fixed plenty as well. Most people over estimate their skill level and just assume that since it is a shotgun, they don’t need to train or stay proficient.... then they induce a problem.... followed by ”unreliable shotguns!” Hmmm... |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:22:54 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryBasically a Claymore. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:23:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Only downside I can think of is lack of penetration on iiiA soft armor. For an unarmored target, it would be a bad day. I would like to see some information about guys that have been hit with soft armor by 12 gauge slugs and the results. I am betting the fight was over for them right there as far as attacking goes. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:23:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure infantry isn't issued shotguns due to international treaties. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have been trained on shotguns in the Army and Law Enforcement and taught its use for thirteen years as an instructor. Pretty sure infantry isn't issued shotguns due to international treaties. You would be wrong on that. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:26:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Shotguns for home defense
Which PC OS is best (OS/2 Warp is the right answer) I remember these being hot topics in the early 90s on Usenet. Someone is really out of ideas. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:32:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotguns belong in the trash can. congrats because you got proned out by the cops or worse shot by them. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:33:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, I am not sure exactly what you are trying to address? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotgun positives. 1) They're cheap. Off the shelf, about $225.00 new for a shotgun that you really don't need to buy anything else for, in order to be able to use. 2) No 'How do I zero this gun?' Look down the barrel, put the bead on the target, blast and shuck shuck. 3) The King of one shot stops. Will drop a perp like crumpled newspaper. 4) They are really reliable. They just work. 5) No magazines, or anything else to buy. Just load the tube and go. Shotgun Negatives. 1) Most only hold between 5 and 8 rounds. That's not a lot of ammo. 2) They're long, and heavy, especially when loaded. 3) They are limited in range. 4) They kick like a rented mule. 5) Anything but a single point sling can foul the action. I tried to think of SBR negatives. I really can't. With the right ammo, they just rule for home defense. Mag changes are easy, ammo is lightweight, accessories aren't nearly an issue. They're shorter, more usable in tight quarters, and they are sexy. I really do love the shotgun, because they are so capable, and I wouldn't feel outgunned if it was all I could have. Any M4 platform is just leagues better at almost everything, except maybe breaching. If you have the budget, and are willing to train, the AR is much much better for everything. It just is. For one - whether one is defending or attacking. For another, selection of arms and ammunition constrained by international treaty and existing inventories. For a third, the presence or absence of backup. For a third, the likelyhood that the party defending the structure has advance warning and help. For a fourth, the availability of the home attackers to have artillery, air, back-up teams. For a fifth, the desire, or lack their of, of the attackers to take someone in the dwelling alive for intelligence purposes. Sorry, I am not sure exactly what you are trying to address? My bad bro, I'm just saying the war I prepare for is....different. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:37:11 PM EDT
[#27]
For some, mostly older, people they are the best choice. Most have never fired an AR or a Glock.
They do know how to run a shotgun, even if it's a limited knowledge. They are not going to invest time or resources in learning another platform. Logic don't work much with that bunch. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:37:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They don't suck for home defense. Rifles are just better. This. There’s some incorrect perceptions about what the strengths of various firearms are. The true strength of a shotgun is versatility. Shotguns have a load for almost every purpose except long range precision. The strength of rifles are range, terminal performance, and capacity. It is the latter two that make rifles great for home defense. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:42:28 PM EDT
[#29]
For my response to the content of OP...
Ive got all this magnesium dust and shavings laying around here. A man's lawn is sacred |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:48:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shotguns belong in the trash can. THis is true for 3-gun. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:49:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the skeptics - remember the old TV show "SWAT"? Notice the M-16s? Ever wonder why the TV show made the producers use those, when real SWAT teams were using shotguns? TV execs said the shotguns were too intimidating and made the audience uncomfortable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotdungs are gross. Peak screen-door protection over here y'all https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/139707/66702.GIF For the skeptics - remember the old TV show "SWAT"? Notice the M-16s? Ever wonder why the TV show made the producers use those, when real SWAT teams were using shotguns? TV execs said the shotguns were too intimidating and made the audience uncomfortable. That quote was fucking nuts. Lmao. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:49:32 PM EDT
[#32]
A shotgun with 00 Buck will absolutely fuck up anyone inside a home, provided you do your part.
AR vs 00 is stupid. Both will kill, but a shotgun will do it quicker. This argument is stupid. I'd rather be shot 5 times by a 9mm than 1 round of 00 buck. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:49:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used to say shotguns were for poor people but now ARs are cheaper True, the .22 caliber bullet just adequate enough to be consistently sufficient for hunting deer sized game. Not saying you can not kill a deer with a .22 caliber bullet, just saying that it is recognized by those who hunt that the .22 is a little inadequate. I'd want a 12ga shotgun over the .223 if I had to face something as big as a bear. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:50:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Like I said in the OTHER 87 threads on this topic:
If all I had available to me was a good old fashioned 12 ga. pump, then I'd make do.  Attached FileFortunately for me, there are other options, so my primary HD firearm is a suppressed AR in .300 BK.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:53:16 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. Happens a fair amount. And running a shotgun one handed is a bitch. Totally possible, assuming you have trained on it. Everyone trains to run all their firearms one handed- right? Right?? Well you should. Get some training people...you can run pistols, rifles, and shotguns all one handed if needed, clear malfunctions, reload, etc. But I guarantee if a gunfight is the first time you do it you will wish you had training. Train for what you suck at. I suck at off side shooting so I work on it. One hand shooting should be something we all work on |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:55:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why have 8 shots when you can have 18 or 30? Why would you pull the trigger 5 times when pulling it once will have a similar amount of lead on target. 
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:55:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Versatile? Yes. Sort of a jack of all trades, master of none though. For home defense, it's better than a pistol but not as good as a rifle.
I disagree with his concern about someone grabbing it from around a corner being a big issue- at least not when compared to a 16" barrel carbine. You can train to mitigate that. Where shotguns lose me is precision (in the unlikely event of family hostage event), rate of fire and capacity (in the unlikely event of multiple determined invaders), and penetration (in the unlikely event invader(s) is wearing soft armor). Close range hunting? Hell yeah. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:57:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryLove the special field English stock… |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:57:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Full Auto > Rifles > PCC > Shotgun > Pistol I wouldn't go so far as to say any choice sucks (except maybe pistol grip only shotguns), just that some are more non-optimal than others. Fixed it |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 9:57:54 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:03:04 PM EDT
[#41]
I posted these a while a go,
The first is 4 rounds of my trap reloads at 7 yards. The second is 5 rounds of 00 buckshot at 7 yards.   Looks good for my for home defense. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:03:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They don't suck for home defense. Rifles are just better. Sorta this. If you have someone that wants to throw $300 at home defense, a Maverick 88 12ga is going to be way more effective, easier to use, and cheaper than a handgun and will be cheaper than a rifle - so long as you're good with just the shells in the tube, the same way that millions of Americans are OK with just the rounds in their wheelguns. You're probably not going to reload either, but reloading the shotgun will probably be easier for people than reloading the wheelgun. We're not talking about the kind of people that actually learn a manual of arms or practice reloading under stress. Viewed through that lens, they're a good choice for many. Notice how I don't say any stupid shit about pellet dispersion or "don't hafta aim". It's a repeating arm, it kills things just fine, and being a long arm it's easier to hit stuff with than a handgun. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:04:45 PM EDT
[#43]
I think mac is right. Shotguns are pretty much dumb in this era, especially in the hands of the untrained/barely trained.
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:08:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think mac is right. Shotguns are pretty much dumb in this era, especially in the hands of the untrained/barely trained. If they're going to be untrained - and most will be, let's be serious here - good luck getting them to operate a semiauto rifle vs. a shotgun, even if the rifle would be way more effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:14:41 PM EDT
[#45]
Like...
How much training does it take, to walk outside the house and fire two blasts? |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:14:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because you live in a commie state where you can only have 10 round mags? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why have 8 shots when you can have 18 or 30? Because you live in a commie state where you can only have 10 round mags? Lol who the fuck would do that |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:16:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they're going to be untrained - and most will be, let's be serious here - good luck getting them to operate a semiauto rifle vs. a shotgun, even if the rifle would be way more effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:21:42 PM EDT
[#48]
I've not found anyone willing to do a practical application test with live fire. Even with a lowly 20ga Shockwave and #3 Buck.
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:21:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure infantry isn't issued shotguns due to international treaties. 
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Posted: 2/10/2022 10:22:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Like... How much training does it take, to walk outside the house and fire two blasts?  Attached File |
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