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Posted: 9/3/2023 4:53:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... Back the Kremlin, lol. You just can’t help yourself. How bout we stop paying for their pensions first? Haven’t seen one of the cult yet even try and defend my labor being used to fund Ukrainian pensions. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 4:58:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I appear to have poked the lion. Maybe more like cage of rabid chimps. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 4:58:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:00:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are deliberately keying in on one story to distort the pattern. Citing the Russian MoD is hardly the issue here. You were in the Egyptian Villa thread, proudly accepting it as unvarnished truth. That story, like so many others, likely started in the Kremlin. But, it's difficult to prove. What is easy to prove is it has zero credibility. And the media sources who managed to discover it and amplify it aways seem to find such obscure sources of information perfectly credible, with each link in the chain making bolder and bolder assertions of credibility, all while not even claiming to have done anything to validate the veracity of the story. And, these stories always seem to advance the same narrative. You never find, say, the many stories on the internet about Putin's alleged foreign property portfolio making the "ZeroHedge" cut. Funny that. Instead, we get articles about Putin's soaring domestic popularity or Russia's announcement of free grain for certain African countries. Zerohedge specializes in non mainstream stories and leaks about Putin always premiere on CNN and such. People's inclination to believe the Egypt villa story could be for similar reasons they pay special attention to This Website is Not Secure warnings for .ua domains. That shit is very commonplace over there. It doesn't take the Russain propaganda apparatus for them to know we are sending billions to a shady country. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:01:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A large number of the people who fall into that category do so as a reaction to constantly being told to ignore their lying eyes. People find it an insult to their intelligence when that happens. Not to mentioned being labeled a Russian agent if you even remotely have anything less than total agreement to unlimited support to Ukraine, including paying their pensions. Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You say this all the time and seem oblivious to the legal/ethical problems with targeting foreign civilians who have committed no crime in America, and then stealing their assets, and donating them to your favorite cause as "reparations". It's really quite telling of your mindset about people's individual rights. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:02:03 PM EDT
[#6]
I do think the Ukrainian threads point out a high level of proxy capture, i.e. that the end states of Ukraine are necessarily coherent with ours, and what to do when that happens.
I'd stress to Ukrainian partisans that policies that are necessarily good for Ukraine might be at a cost that's unacceptably high (even in risk, which is hard to quantify.) |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:10:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do think the Ukrainian threads point out a high level of proxy capture, i.e. that the end states of Ukraine are necessarily coherent with ours, and what to do when that happens. I'd stress to Ukrainian partisans that policies that are necessarily good for Ukraine might be at a cost that's unacceptably high (even in risk, which is hard to quantify.) Not to mention we have bumbled our way into this from Day 1. From flip flopping on which weapons we give them to now social programs we are paying for. And I have yet to see one coherent national strategy on Ukraine other than “however long it takes”. This would have been a dangerous endeavor even if it were war gamed and planned out. But making it up as you go against the country with the most nuclear weapons is downright idiotic and dangerous. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:16:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can Ukraine Win-- Define "win." The Ukrainian government view is both regime change in Moscow and return to the 1954 Boundaries of the Ukrainian SSR. Personally, I think both are highly aspirational Should they win.-- Define "should." That's moral ought. Personally, as an International Relations realist, I just don't think it matters. Should they? Yeah. Does it really matter to anyone? I don't know what the value is of that argument. Should America be supporting them: (this part of it alone, breaks down to a dozen different categories) Morally.-- Sure, but that gets back to your "should" question previously. This isn't some court of law where we appeal to some completely neutral judge to proclaim moral correctness. We certainly have no treaty obligation that compels us. Strategically.-- Can we get there from here? What is the cost to even get to a lower bar of Ukrainian success? Militarily-- That's likely an assessment difficult to make outside of the classified realm. Again, its a cost benefit question. Economically, etc, etc etc.-- Frankly, if we are arguing for the Ukrainian position on economic grounds, that's an incredibly weak argument. The ROI of a Ukrainian victory is measured in geologic time. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:17:21 PM EDT
[#9]
I consider it likely that Zerohedge is influenced by Russia and reddit is influenced by China. I always keep this in mind when reading these sites.
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:18:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back the Kremlin, lol. You just can’t help yourself. How bout we stop paying for their pensions first? Haven’t seen one of the cult yet even try and defend my labor being used to fund Ukrainian pensions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... Back the Kremlin, lol. You just can’t help yourself. How bout we stop paying for their pensions first? Haven’t seen one of the cult yet even try and defend my labor being used to fund Ukrainian pensions. You didn't answer. Do you support seizing Russian assets and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? Come on, let the mask slip a little |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:20:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You say this all the time and seem oblivious to the legal/ethical problems with targeting foreign civilians who have committed no crime in America, and then stealing their assets, and donating them to your favorite cause as "reparations". It's really quite telling of your mindset about people's individual rights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A large number of the people who fall into that category do so as a reaction to constantly being told to ignore their lying eyes. People find it an insult to their intelligence when that happens. Not to mentioned being labeled a Russian agent if you even remotely have anything less than total agreement to unlimited support to Ukraine, including paying their pensions. Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You say this all the time and seem oblivious to the legal/ethical problems with targeting foreign civilians who have committed no crime in America, and then stealing their assets, and donating them to your favorite cause as "reparations". It's really quite telling of your mindset about people's individual rights. What an impassioned defense of the oligarchs! |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:20:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer. Do you support seizing Russian assets and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? Come on, let the mask slip a little Again, calling me a Russian supporter. Tiresome. And in this thread we have people boasting that the pro Ukraine posters just want to have a reasonable conversation. Here is example one million of that being a lie. Do you support seizing my personal assets to give to Ukraine as reparations? Come on, let the mask slip a little. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:21:24 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every Ukraine thread posted on GD is a continuation of the last. You have members who joined a decade before this war went hot calling other longtime members propogandists and trolls. I've done it myself recently and felt bad about it. @Ryan_Ruck You probably don't remember but I apologize for the attacks a while back. Still have the same issues with you, but it doesn't excuse my behavior. I logged off for about 5 days after to get my head straight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I appear to have poked the lion. You have members who joined a decade before this war went hot calling other longtime members propogandists and trolls. I've done it myself recently and felt bad about it. @Ryan_Ruck You probably don't remember but I apologize for the attacks a while back. Still have the same issues with you, but it doesn't excuse my behavior. I logged off for about 5 days after to get my head straight. Good observation on the senior accounts going all in. While we've had a "teener" issue since 2013 that hasn't really abated (even in this thread we have some single-purpose new accounts), but there's plenty of accounts older than ours who have become rather fixated. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:22:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Here come the excuses. Providing weapons and intelligence makes us much more a party to the war. US investors are already under threat but Russia. We're already into a full on trade war and cold war. This is just shilling for Russia |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:24:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to mention we have bumbled our way into this from Day 1. From flip flopping on which weapons we give them to now social programs we are paying for. And I have yet to see one coherent national strategy on Ukraine other than “however long it takes”. This would have been a dangerous endeavor even if it were war gamed and planned out. But making it up as you go against the country with the most nuclear weapons is downright idiotic and dangerous. The Ukrainian partisans have a singular problem that their pet foreign policy problem is in the hands of, shall we say, a military and foreign policy team pretty unencumbered by prior success. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:24:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here come the excuses. Providing weapons and intelligence makes us much more a party to the war. US investors are already under threat but Russia. We're already into a full on trade war and cold war. This is just shilling for Russia ShiLLiNG foR ruSSiA Example number one million and one. Low energy my guy. Up your game. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:25:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer. Do you support seizing Russian assets and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? Come on, let the mask slip a little See, this is trolling. Nearly definitionally. Trolling of the sort that Ukrainian partisans should clearly denounce, but they don't. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:26:30 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here come the excuses. Providing weapons and intelligence makes us much more a party to the war. US investors are already under threat but Russia. We're already into a full on trade war and cold war. This is just shilling for Russia I'm a Russian shill? I think you're a Russian elicitation shill. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:32:11 PM EDT
[#19]
If you don’t have zman dna on your mustache you’re a Russian agent. I thought this was well established.
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:37:44 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Now I see arfcommers repeating this bullshit. Is there validity to it? Seems like most of their articles are simply reposted from other sites, with a few being organically zerohedge. I've been reading ZH for quite a while, there's most assuredly a bias (but show me a "news" site with no bias and I'll show you the image of a sucker in a mirror). The first time I heard this it was on some leftist media watchlist or something, now arfcommers are calling it Russian Prop as well? I call BS. Show me, prove it, or at least provide some reasonable evidence. Just read the site for 2 seconds... First Ukraine article on the homepage: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/dire-warning-against-us-plan-turn-ukraine-europes-big-israel Written by Tyler Durden and sourced from a known Russian shill who really just wants to complain about not getting his GoFundMe dollars: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:52:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you’re an expert in some military matters, of Course, you are going to identify times where people are wrong. This argument is happening on several layers simultaneously: Can Ukraine Win Should they win. Should America be supporting them: (this part of it alone, breaks down to a dozen different categories) Morally. Strategically. Militarily Economically, etc, etc etc. Being an expert in Artillery, gives you insight, but also blinds you to other possibilities. This is the first large scale drone war. Things change. You don’t know everything, and even the smartest people can’t predict much. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then, some pro Ukraine guys will earnestly try to set the record straight. I have seen them try to set the record strait many times in which they had no idea what they were talking about just because the facts on the ground did not look great for their side. If you’re an expert in some military matters, of Course, you are going to identify times where people are wrong. This argument is happening on several layers simultaneously: Can Ukraine Win Should they win. Should America be supporting them: (this part of it alone, breaks down to a dozen different categories) Morally. Strategically. Militarily Economically, etc, etc etc. Being an expert in Artillery, gives you insight, but also blinds you to other possibilities. This is the first large scale drone war. Things change. You don’t know everything, and even the smartest people can’t predict much. UAS was in my portfolios prior to retirement (why do you think that may be?). But I will be the first to admit being a neophyte on the subject only have a couple years worth of work on it I think they can win, but what they have defined as winning may be an impossibility The probably should also win, but may again it gets back to their definition of winning, and their definition of winning may draw my nation into a war it may not be prepared to fight. The problem most of the pro-Ukraine side will not acknowledge is the group we have running the whole affair is long on moral preening, but short on actual moral authority, and do you actually they have any real acumen at running the economy much less run an economic war? |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:53:15 PM EDT
[#22]
I thought this thread was about legitimacy of news sites.
I was wrong. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 5:54:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:33:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What an impassioned defense of the oligarchs! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A large number of the people who fall into that category do so as a reaction to constantly being told to ignore their lying eyes. People find it an insult to their intelligence when that happens. Not to mentioned being labeled a Russian agent if you even remotely have anything less than total agreement to unlimited support to Ukraine, including paying their pensions. Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You say this all the time and seem oblivious to the legal/ethical problems with targeting foreign civilians who have committed no crime in America, and then stealing their assets, and donating them to your favorite cause as "reparations". It's really quite telling of your mindset about people's individual rights. What an impassioned defense of the oligarchs! This could make an interesting poll. "Do you support the US government targetting foreign citizens who are not wanted for any crimes and stealing their assets to donate to Ukraine?" Do you want to pull their gold teeth also? 
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:39:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:41:30 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. And we have members here who have hoped that crossing a red line will trigger Russia to nuke the parts of the USA that they don’t like. Sounds pretty un-American to me |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:43:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you don’t have zman dna on your mustache you’re a Russian agent. I thought this was well established.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 6:52:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:07:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. Russia superceded the precedents and norms for nations when it illegally invaded Ukraine. We are well supported by the community of nations in bringing Russia to justice. What we're discussing is how. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:09:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’ve got such a hard on for me, but you’re just spewing nonsense. Trying to argue, over literally Nothing. You haven’t even answered the first basic question that I asked. Let me simplify it: US To Arm Ukraine With Toxic Depleted Uranium Munitions Tyler Durden's Photo BY TYLER DURDEN SUNDAY, SEP 03, 2023 - 07:35 AM In the latest manifestation of the War State's depraved indifference to human suffering in Ukraine, the United States will soon pour depleted-uranium munitions into its proxy war against Russia, according to an exclusive report from Reuters. I posted This, as an example of Pro-Russian propaganda. Do you agree, or do you dispute it? We can’t have an argument unless you take a position. Stop equivocating and answer the Question. It’s the Internet for Christ sake. There’s nothing to be scared of. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: EVERY single news website makes money by selling ads. Generating clicks with eyeballs looking at those ads is done by selling people what they want to hear. It's even more effective and profitable when you can trigger the "outrage index". WaPo markets news to liberals just like Fox News markets news to conservatives (heh). The truth is nuanced, and the gratification of a site legitimizing what you want to hear is a dopamine hit. ETA - They also sell the analytics information from your activity.... So for the old dudes out there, that's why every ad you see on Fox is for horny grannies after you watch some grey bush porn. Your premise happens to be a bit wrong. ZeroHedge and Epoch times don’t make a ton of money selling ads. That should have been the first clue. Here you make a factual statement about their income. Do you have any citations to support this claim? Do you work for them? Go ahead and post up the numbers. The ads I’ve seen, don’t look very lucrative to me. At all. Post up the financials though, if you can find them. We all know they can’t be faked. I have to cut grass today and air conditioning to fix, etc, but I’ll check back in later to see what you’ve revealed. I’m curious, but not curious enough to waste hours searching. There’s only so much time in each day. YOU made a "factual" statement. " ZeroHedge and Epoch times don’t make a ton of money selling ads. " When asked for proof, it turns out it was just your opinion......and then demand that someone else find the information to support YOUR assertion.  First you change the subject. Then can't remember what I may have posted, but call me out for what you can't remember.  At one point you said: "That’s how propaganda works. You take well known Facts, and then you twist and redirect them with your own skillful wording." Clearly you know this well, as it is an apt description of your posting style. As I said before: "You aren't interested in conversation, debate or finding answers. You are berating people into agreeing with you, or if not, then deriding their viewpoint." Like the good propagandist. You’ve got such a hard on for me, but you’re just spewing nonsense. Trying to argue, over literally Nothing. You haven’t even answered the first basic question that I asked. Let me simplify it: US To Arm Ukraine With Toxic Depleted Uranium Munitions Tyler Durden's Photo BY TYLER DURDEN SUNDAY, SEP 03, 2023 - 07:35 AM In the latest manifestation of the War State's depraved indifference to human suffering in Ukraine, the United States will soon pour depleted-uranium munitions into its proxy war against Russia, according to an exclusive report from Reuters. I posted This, as an example of Pro-Russian propaganda. Do you agree, or do you dispute it? We can’t have an argument unless you take a position. Stop equivocating and answer the Question. It’s the Internet for Christ sake. There’s nothing to be scared of. Correct, I have not answered your questions. They are a distraction and purposely tangential on your part to avoid discussing your posting style as I questioned in my very first quote of one of your posts. I don't have a "hard on" for you. You just happen to be the perfect example to point out the posting style and behavior that haunts any thread on Ukraine. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:10:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia superceded the precedents and norms for nations when it illegally invaded Ukraine. We are well supported by the community of nations in bringing Russia to justice. What we're discussing is how. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. Russia superceded the precedents and norms for nations when it illegally invaded Ukraine. We are well supported by the community of nations in bringing Russia to justice. What we're discussing is how. Iraq war was illegal and breached UN charter, says Annan The United Nations secretary general, Kofi Annan, declared explicitly for the first time last night that the US-led war on Iraq was illegal. It must suck to lack historical perspective |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:11:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:13:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it So only if we agree with you can that prove we're not a Russian shill? People ask for examples of post modernist thought in action, and one shows up like a Greek plays ending. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:13:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? Whether you are for or against the seizure of Russian assets, doing so is a radical shift in geopolitical maneuvering. A shift that is likely to have consequences long after this war is over. Discussed in detail and context here: I suggest just listening, as nothing to be gained by watching.  E144: Biden targets Elon, BRICS challenges the West, Tiger hit piece & more |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:13:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I figured you had pretty thick skin but still was dumb on my part. Right after I finished posting that I clicked on the rototiller thread to get updates saw you were stoked about yours too. . . . just made me realize how dumb it all is arguing with people I'd probably get along with. I logged off for a while after. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I appreciate it and I know I can lay on the snark a bit thick sometimes. Just my nature. I honestly don't take 95% of the stuff here very seriously. They're just words on the internet. I figured you had pretty thick skin but still was dumb on my part. Right after I finished posting that I clicked on the rototiller thread to get updates saw you were stoked about yours too. . . . just made me realize how dumb it all is arguing with people I'd probably get along with. I logged off for a while after. 
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:14:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Things would change is a war were declared, but right now we have people wanting the US to take further actions permissible in war, but not at the current state of peace. The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. It's a wedge question that brings out the hypocrisy in those claiming to be thinking only of the poor American taxpayer. The Russians have executed a very successful propaganda campaign. They have taken distrust of the American government and done a bit of jujitsu to turn people from critics of the government to opponents of the United States, and aligned them to outright pro Russian positions. We literally now have people who present themselves as partiots but who believe and say things like the US government is a bigger threat to freedom than the Kremlin, who think everything is a CIA plot while forwarding talking points generated by the FSB, and consider their own country to be their primary enemy. So the UN supersedes 100s of years of precedence and norms for nations? You are aware the UN has declared climate change a global emergency,as such what will you allow them to seize based on that proclamation? I think a pretty good argument could be made that elements of the so called deep are as greater a threat to the survival of the US than the Russians. Remember the FBI making up the Russia Hoax? Suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop? And it was not 51 Russian officials cited by POTUS to shut down any questions of him receiving bribes during the last campaign. And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it So you don’t think the FBIs action from 2016 forward present a risk to the Nation? |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:14:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it Frame this post. Decades from now when discussing the Uke ARF wars, this is the post that should be in the museum. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:16:43 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frame this post. Decades from now when discussing the Uke ARF wars, this is the post that should be in the museum. I do admire their singlemindedness. But it's not groupthink or bias. Nope, none of that to be seen! |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:20:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The United Nations has already declared the invasion illegal. We have already imposed various sanctions on Russia as a result. These are assets belonging to Russian oligarchs that are within the territory of NATO countries. Seizing them and giving them to Ukraine is really quite in line with what we have already done and far less belligerent than sending weapons. There are very good arguments that seizing assets without due process is far more belligerent. Note, I do not say I agree with or am against the seizures, but I AM reading and listening to those who are more familiar. These seizures are huge shift in policy/manipulation and the long term outcomes may not be "pretty". |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:23:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here come the excuses. Providing weapons and intelligence makes us much more a party to the war. US investors are already under threat but Russia. We're already into a full on trade war and cold war. This is just shilling for Russia Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you in favor of seizing Russian assets in Western countries and giving them to Ukraine as reparations? I'm guessing no, you will find some excuse to back the Kremlin even on things that don't cost the US taxpayer a penny. So then all your protestations... You've posted this before, and a number of people pointed out that would make the US a more direct party to the war than it is already, and put US companies and investors at a heighted risk of expropriation in their turn, as many parts of the US economy have direct dealing supporting the DOD or US Government more broadly. So your position is based off a false premise, namely that your obvious policy of seizure of assets is even legal, let alone a good policy for the majority of Americans. Here come the excuses. Providing weapons and intelligence makes us much more a party to the war. US investors are already under threat but Russia. We're already into a full on trade war and cold war. This is just shilling for Russia  ...
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:28:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frame this post. Decades from now when discussing the Uke ARF wars, this is the post that should be in the museum. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And yeah, I am not surprised at all that you think the United States is a big threat to the world and that you have all your FSB talking points ready as to why Americans should see their own government as the enemy. I doubt you are in direct cahoots with the FSB, that doesn't fit your profile. What does fit is that you have been well and truly turned by their propaganda so that you have effectively become an enemy of your own country, even if that's not how you see it Frame this post. Decades from now when discussing the Uke ARF wars, this is the post that should be in the museum. This guy is off his rocker. "Seize assets from the private citizens and give them to Ukraine, it doesn't matter that they haven't been charged with a crime there Russians!" "Anyone against this is a Russian agent and an enemy of the US!" "If you point out that our government lied you are an enemy of the state and a Russian sympathizer!" |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:31:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do admire their singlemindedness. But it's not groupthink or bias. Nope, none of that to be seen! Uke guys crying about the discourse of the topic and at the same time saying you are an enemy of your own country. Tiresome and transparent. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:32:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia superceded the precedents and norms for nations when it illegally invaded Ukraine. We are well supported by the community of nations in bringing Russia to justice. What we're discussing is how. I doubt you are in a position to argue with R0n on how. The question are attempting to posit, is "at what risk?" |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:33:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can Ukraine Win-- Define "win." The Ukrainian government view is both regime change in Moscow and return to the 1954 Boundaries of the Ukrainian SSR. Personally, I think both are highly aspirational Should they win.-- Define "should." That's moral ought. Personally, as an International Relations realist, I just don't think it matters. Should they? Yeah. Does it really matter to anyone? I don't know what the value is of that argument. Should America be supporting them: (this part of it alone, breaks down to a dozen different categories) Morally.-- Sure, but that gets back to your "should" question previously. This isn't some court of law where we appeal to some completely neutral judge to proclaim moral correctness. We certainly have no treaty obligation that compels us. Strategically.-- Can we get there from here? What is the cost to even get to a lower bar of Ukrainian success? Militarily-- That's likely an assessment difficult to make outside of the classified realm. Again, its a cost benefit question. Economically, etc, etc etc.-- Frankly, if we are arguing for the Ukrainian position on economic grounds, that's an incredibly weak argument. The ROI of a Ukrainian victory is measured in geologic time. Yes, exactly. That question alone probably has 10 subcategories. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:33:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This guy is off his rocker. "Seize assets from the private citizens and give them to Ukraine, it doesn't matter that they haven't been charged with a crime there Russians!" "Anyone against this is a Russian agent and an enemy of the US!" "If you point out that our government lied you are an enemy of the state and a Russian sympathizer!" Every time I read Ukraine partisan post like that all I can think of is Chris Rock saying "never drive with an angry woman." |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:33:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt you are in a position to argue with R0n on how. The question are attempting to posit, is "at what risk?" Risking Kansas City for Kiev is not something I’m signing up for. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:35:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uke guys crying about the discourse of the topic and at the same time saying you are an enemy of your own country. Tiresome and transparent. It's why I really think many of the posters without a compelling and understandable reason to be invested in the process (familial ties, etc) are really Russians making the Ukrainians look unhinged. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:39:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, exactly. That question alone probably has 10 subcategories. Exactly. I think to a degree these discussions are irrelevant as the US has staked so much on a successful outcome we are married to the Ukrainians regardless if this is alliance commitment of waking up in Vegas married to a stripper, from a planning standpoint. However, it does asks some questions of our government, which it's been less than inclined to offer an answer. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:39:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not really. More than and by far the bulk of Ukraine threads and the bulk of the antagonizing is from the anti Ukraine crowd. Many time the pro Ukraine crowd does make attempts to provide reasonable post on the topic. Meanwhile the anti crowd pumps a thread of worthless in before, play victim and such post. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ukraine broke this website The mods have allowed a handful of posters to "own" an issue in stark contrast to the actual sentiment of the userbase. Truth. |
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Posted: 9/3/2023 7:40:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: UAS was in my portfolios prior to retirement (why do you think that may be?). But I will be the first to admit being a neophyte on the subject only have a couple years worth of work on it I think they can win, but what they have defined as winning may be an impossibility The probably should also win, but may again it gets back to their definition of winning, and their definition of winning may draw my nation into a war it may not be prepared to fight. The problem most of the pro-Ukraine side will not acknowledge is the group we have running the whole affair is long on moral preening, but short on actual moral authority, and do you actually they have any real acumen at running the economy much less run an economic war? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Then, some pro Ukraine guys will earnestly try to set the record straight. I have seen them try to set the record strait many times in which they had no idea what they were talking about just because the facts on the ground did not look great for their side. If you’re an expert in some military matters, of Course, you are going to identify times where people are wrong. This argument is happening on several layers simultaneously: Can Ukraine Win Should they win. Should America be supporting them: (this part of it alone, breaks down to a dozen different categories) Morally. Strategically. Militarily Economically, etc, etc etc. Being an expert in Artillery, gives you insight, but also blinds you to other possibilities. This is the first large scale drone war. Things change. You don’t know everything, and even the smartest people can’t predict much. UAS was in my portfolios prior to retirement (why do you think that may be?). But I will be the first to admit being a neophyte on the subject only have a couple years worth of work on it I think they can win, but what they have defined as winning may be an impossibility The probably should also win, but may again it gets back to their definition of winning, and their definition of winning may draw my nation into a war it may not be prepared to fight. The problem most of the pro-Ukraine side will not acknowledge is the group we have running the whole affair is long on moral preening, but short on actual moral authority, and do you actually they have any real acumen at running the economy much less run an economic war? You and SJ would have a better idea of who is calling the shots?, and whether they are capable. I think we can all agree it’s not Biden? |
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