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Posted: 6/12/2024 8:44:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I watch a lot of P&S on youtube, a lot of their talks about snubbies, wadcutters, carry, etc were fascinating. IIRC Chuck Haggard was the one of the bunch (if not him it's Daryl) who talked about the difference between clear gel and organic (the real standard). I wanna say the line was like, "Everything looks good in clear gel", but then there's calibrated proper organic gel, and the real world, and the results are often way different.  I'd rewatch to find the lines about this stuff but they're all like 3 hours long, each, and they've done a few  Some takeaways for the other guys to the best of my memory: - Clear gel performance is not a 1:1 with organic gel and FBI testing, it can be misleading - Gel isn't always 1:1 with reality, IIRC Daryl mentioned an LEO organization that was issued 230gr ball (no HPs) as a duty load, in on the street shootings no it wasn't blowing through both sides easily, they only ever had ~2 exits in actual OIS incidents. In both, they barely had any real energy left. - 38 is tough, by the time you get great expansion, now it doesn't penetrate well. If you have good penetration, now the expansion is Eh. If you drive the bullet fast enough to do both (with enough weight to carry some momentum), now recoil is a concern. It is a balance - There really aren't complaints about the performance of .357 . It's not "in its own category" per say, but it is still very good and under-rated today- Yes, wadcutters are a real choice. Makes depth in gel (with enough velocity, ~700fps range), recoil isn't crazy, match grade round, hits to the sights on a lot of older fixed sight guns And one that surprised me, - Actually there is a difference in the pocket 9mms of a 3.5in barrel and a 3.0in barrel. 3.5in might be JUST on the line for enough velocity to reliably expand with some loads, with 3.0 dropping below with some loads HPs are velocity dependent, what works great in a 4in barrel duty gun might run into issues once that barrel gets short, with a ~3in auto pistol being pretty analogous to the 2in revolver barrel - and IIRC the hornady critical defense .357 125gr chronos to about ~1240fps in a 2in barrel, which makes it hotter than most 9mm, even in longer barrels. At least most defensive 9mm loads in that weight range that i'm familiar with The idea that there's "zero benefit" in a short barrel is not true. There is, it might just be nightmare fuel recoil wise in an 11oz scandium gun If you drive .38 bullets fast enough to both penetrate what the FBI considers enough AND expand reliably that's called .357 Magnum. IIRC right before the autopistols took over, they found a load that was pretty well liked from what I can tell The old .38 Lead SWC HP (LSWCHP) 158gr +P https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/144599/1000079419_jpg-3174632.JPG Performed well, not as hot as real 357 (and supposedly back in the day before flash suppressant powders and all, 357 was a spicier experience ), worked well in a duty sized 38 without beating the gun to deathI look at it like this: The "good/great" range seems to be a zone between hot 38 and mild 357 The 2in barrel is the challenge for velocity, burning powders The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 1:51:07 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I watch a lot of P&S on youtube, a lot of their talks about snubbies, wadcutters, carry, etc were fascinating. IIRC Chuck Haggard was the one of the bunch (if not him it's Daryl) who talked about the difference between clear gel and organic (the real standard). I wanna say the line was like, "Everything looks good in clear gel", but then there's calibrated proper organic gel, and the real world, and the results are often way different. I'd rewatch to find the lines about this stuff but they're all like 3 hours long, each, and they've done a few Some takeaways for the other guys to the best of my memory: - Clear gel performance is not a 1:1 with organic gel and FBI testing, it can be misleading - Gel isn't always 1:1 with reality, IIRC Daryl mentioned an LEO organization that was issued 230gr ball (no HPs) as a duty load, in on the street shootings no it wasn't blowing through both sides easily, they only ever had ~2 exits in actual OIS incidents. In both, they barely had any real energy left. - 38 is tough, by the time you get great expansion, now it doesn't penetrate well. If you have good penetration, now the expansion is Eh. If you drive the bullet fast enough to do both (with enough weight to carry some momentum), now recoil is a concern. It is a balance - There really aren't complaints about the performance of .357 . It's not "in its own category" per say, but it is still very good and under-rated today- Yes, wadcutters are a real choice. Makes depth in gel (with enough velocity, ~700fps range), recoil isn't crazy, match grade round, hits to the sights on a lot of older fixed sight guns And one that surprised me, - Actually there is a difference in the pocket 9mms of a 3.5in barrel and a 3.0in barrel. 3.5in might be JUST on the line for enough velocity to reliably expand with some loads, with 3.0 dropping below with some loads HPs are velocity dependent, what works great in a 4in barrel duty gun might run into issues once that barrel gets short, with a ~3in auto pistol being pretty analogous to the 2in revolver barrel - and IIRC the hornady critical defense .357 125gr chronos to about ~1240fps in a 2in barrel, which makes it hotter than most 9mm, even in longer barrels. At least most defensive 9mm loads in that weight range that i'm familiar with The idea that there's "zero benefit" in a short barrel is not true. There is, it might just be nightmare fuel recoil wise in an 11oz scandium gun If you drive .38 bullets fast enough to both penetrate what the FBI considers enough AND expand reliably that's called .357 Magnum. IIRC right before the autopistols took over, they found a load that was pretty well liked from what I can tell The old .38 Lead SWC HP (LSWCHP) 158gr +P https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/144599/1000079419_jpg-3174632.JPG Performed well, not as hot as real 357 (and supposedly back in the day before flash suppressant powders and all, 357 was a spicier experience ), worked well in a duty sized 38 without beating the gun to deathI look at it like this: The "good/great" range seems to be a zone between hot 38 and mild 357 The 2in barrel is the challenge for velocity, burning powders The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 2:07:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I watch a lot of P&S on youtube, a lot of their talks about snubbies, wadcutters, carry, etc were fascinating. IIRC Chuck Haggard was the one of the bunch (if not him it's Daryl) who talked about the difference between clear gel and organic (the real standard). I wanna say the line was like, "Everything looks good in clear gel", but then there's calibrated proper organic gel, and the real world, and the results are often way different. I'd rewatch to find the lines about this stuff but they're all like 3 hours long, each, and they've done a few Some takeaways for the other guys to the best of my memory: - Clear gel performance is not a 1:1 with organic gel and FBI testing, it can be misleading - Gel isn't always 1:1 with reality, IIRC Daryl mentioned an LEO organization that was issued 230gr ball (no HPs) as a duty load, in on the street shootings no it wasn't blowing through both sides easily, they only ever had ~2 exits in actual OIS incidents. In both, they barely had any real energy left. - 38 is tough, by the time you get great expansion, now it doesn't penetrate well. If you have good penetration, now the expansion is Eh. If you drive the bullet fast enough to do both (with enough weight to carry some momentum), now recoil is a concern. It is a balance - There really aren't complaints about the performance of .357 . It's not "in its own category" per say, but it is still very good and under-rated today- Yes, wadcutters are a real choice. Makes depth in gel (with enough velocity, ~700fps range), recoil isn't crazy, match grade round, hits to the sights on a lot of older fixed sight guns And one that surprised me, - Actually there is a difference in the pocket 9mms of a 3.5in barrel and a 3.0in barrel. 3.5in might be JUST on the line for enough velocity to reliably expand with some loads, with 3.0 dropping below with some loads HPs are velocity dependent, what works great in a 4in barrel duty gun might run into issues once that barrel gets short, with a ~3in auto pistol being pretty analogous to the 2in revolver barrel - and IIRC the hornady critical defense .357 125gr chronos to about ~1240fps in a 2in barrel, which makes it hotter than most 9mm, even in longer barrels. At least most defensive 9mm loads in that weight range that i'm familiar with The idea that there's "zero benefit" in a short barrel is not true. There is, it might just be nightmare fuel recoil wise in an 11oz scandium gun If you drive .38 bullets fast enough to both penetrate what the FBI considers enough AND expand reliably that's called .357 Magnum. IIRC right before the autopistols took over, they found a load that was pretty well liked from what I can tell The old .38 Lead SWC HP (LSWCHP) 158gr +P https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/144599/1000079419_jpg-3174632.JPG Performed well, not as hot as real 357 (and supposedly back in the day before flash suppressant powders and all, 357 was a spicier experience ), worked well in a duty sized 38 without beating the gun to deathI look at it like this: The "good/great" range seems to be a zone between hot 38 and mild 357 The 2in barrel is the challenge for velocity, burning powders The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat If you can find any Unique. |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 2:38:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can find any Unique. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I watch a lot of P&S on youtube, a lot of their talks about snubbies, wadcutters, carry, etc were fascinating. IIRC Chuck Haggard was the one of the bunch (if not him it's Daryl) who talked about the difference between clear gel and organic (the real standard). I wanna say the line was like, "Everything looks good in clear gel", but then there's calibrated proper organic gel, and the real world, and the results are often way different. I'd rewatch to find the lines about this stuff but they're all like 3 hours long, each, and they've done a few Some takeaways for the other guys to the best of my memory: - Clear gel performance is not a 1:1 with organic gel and FBI testing, it can be misleading - Gel isn't always 1:1 with reality, IIRC Daryl mentioned an LEO organization that was issued 230gr ball (no HPs) as a duty load, in on the street shootings no it wasn't blowing through both sides easily, they only ever had ~2 exits in actual OIS incidents. In both, they barely had any real energy left. - 38 is tough, by the time you get great expansion, now it doesn't penetrate well. If you have good penetration, now the expansion is Eh. If you drive the bullet fast enough to do both (with enough weight to carry some momentum), now recoil is a concern. It is a balance - There really aren't complaints about the performance of .357 . It's not "in its own category" per say, but it is still very good and under-rated today- Yes, wadcutters are a real choice. Makes depth in gel (with enough velocity, ~700fps range), recoil isn't crazy, match grade round, hits to the sights on a lot of older fixed sight guns And one that surprised me, - Actually there is a difference in the pocket 9mms of a 3.5in barrel and a 3.0in barrel. 3.5in might be JUST on the line for enough velocity to reliably expand with some loads, with 3.0 dropping below with some loads HPs are velocity dependent, what works great in a 4in barrel duty gun might run into issues once that barrel gets short, with a ~3in auto pistol being pretty analogous to the 2in revolver barrel - and IIRC the hornady critical defense .357 125gr chronos to about ~1240fps in a 2in barrel, which makes it hotter than most 9mm, even in longer barrels. At least most defensive 9mm loads in that weight range that i'm familiar with The idea that there's "zero benefit" in a short barrel is not true. There is, it might just be nightmare fuel recoil wise in an 11oz scandium gun If you drive .38 bullets fast enough to both penetrate what the FBI considers enough AND expand reliably that's called .357 Magnum. IIRC right before the autopistols took over, they found a load that was pretty well liked from what I can tell The old .38 Lead SWC HP (LSWCHP) 158gr +P https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/144599/1000079419_jpg-3174632.JPG Performed well, not as hot as real 357 (and supposedly back in the day before flash suppressant powders and all, 357 was a spicier experience ), worked well in a duty sized 38 without beating the gun to deathI look at it like this: The "good/great" range seems to be a zone between hot 38 and mild 357 The 2in barrel is the challenge for velocity, burning powders The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat If you can find any Unique. I do have 1lb of Unique |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 4:37:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do have 1lb of Unique Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I watch a lot of P&S on youtube, a lot of their talks about snubbies, wadcutters, carry, etc were fascinating. IIRC Chuck Haggard was the one of the bunch (if not him it's Daryl) who talked about the difference between clear gel and organic (the real standard). I wanna say the line was like, "Everything looks good in clear gel", but then there's calibrated proper organic gel, and the real world, and the results are often way different. I'd rewatch to find the lines about this stuff but they're all like 3 hours long, each, and they've done a few Some takeaways for the other guys to the best of my memory: - Clear gel performance is not a 1:1 with organic gel and FBI testing, it can be misleading - Gel isn't always 1:1 with reality, IIRC Daryl mentioned an LEO organization that was issued 230gr ball (no HPs) as a duty load, in on the street shootings no it wasn't blowing through both sides easily, they only ever had ~2 exits in actual OIS incidents. In both, they barely had any real energy left. - 38 is tough, by the time you get great expansion, now it doesn't penetrate well. If you have good penetration, now the expansion is Eh. If you drive the bullet fast enough to do both (with enough weight to carry some momentum), now recoil is a concern. It is a balance - There really aren't complaints about the performance of .357 . It's not "in its own category" per say, but it is still very good and under-rated today- Yes, wadcutters are a real choice. Makes depth in gel (with enough velocity, ~700fps range), recoil isn't crazy, match grade round, hits to the sights on a lot of older fixed sight guns And one that surprised me, - Actually there is a difference in the pocket 9mms of a 3.5in barrel and a 3.0in barrel. 3.5in might be JUST on the line for enough velocity to reliably expand with some loads, with 3.0 dropping below with some loads HPs are velocity dependent, what works great in a 4in barrel duty gun might run into issues once that barrel gets short, with a ~3in auto pistol being pretty analogous to the 2in revolver barrel - and IIRC the hornady critical defense .357 125gr chronos to about ~1240fps in a 2in barrel, which makes it hotter than most 9mm, even in longer barrels. At least most defensive 9mm loads in that weight range that i'm familiar with The idea that there's "zero benefit" in a short barrel is not true. There is, it might just be nightmare fuel recoil wise in an 11oz scandium gun If you drive .38 bullets fast enough to both penetrate what the FBI considers enough AND expand reliably that's called .357 Magnum. IIRC right before the autopistols took over, they found a load that was pretty well liked from what I can tell The old .38 Lead SWC HP (LSWCHP) 158gr +P https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/144599/1000079419_jpg-3174632.JPG Performed well, not as hot as real 357 (and supposedly back in the day before flash suppressant powders and all, 357 was a spicier experience ), worked well in a duty sized 38 without beating the gun to deathI look at it like this: The "good/great" range seems to be a zone between hot 38 and mild 357 The 2in barrel is the challenge for velocity, burning powders The problem is somewhere along the way they started making the bullet harder and now they don’t expand well. My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat If you can find any Unique. I do have 1lb of Unique That comes to 1400 rounds. Or 1 full ammo can |
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Posted: 6/12/2024 5:34:56 PM EDT
[#6]
442 gets 135gr +P Gold Dots.
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Posted: 6/12/2024 6:27:55 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 442 gets 135gr +P Gold Dots. I don’t think Speer has produced any since Covid. |
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Posted: 6/13/2024 7:41:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat For std LSWC 158gr, 4-4.4gr of AA#2 is clean, FR, and not position sensitive. 4.4gr gets to +p. So, you’re firearm dependent. You can stay at 4 gr at std pressure. AA is sometimes hard to find, but usually Easier to find or substitute Clean Shot / Shooter World / Lovex than unique. You could go 238 also. Save unique for larger and heavier doses in pistol calibers like 44/45. Maybe 7 gr and above. I call it a beat, but ymmv. For HPs, I like #5 (really fine with either bullet.) I use rimrock for both bullets. |
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Posted: 6/13/2024 10:01:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For std LSWC 158gr, 4-4.4gr of AA#2 is clean, FR, and not position sensitive. 4.4gr gets to +p. So, you’re firearm dependent. You can stay at 4 gr at std pressure. AA is sometimes hard to find, but usually Easier to find or substitute Clean Shot / Shooter World / Lovex than unique. You could go 238 also. Save unique for larger and heavier doses in pistol calibers like 44/45. Maybe 7 gr and above. I call it a beat, but ymmv. For HPs, I like #5 (really fine with either bullet.) I use rimrock for both bullets. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For SWC 158s 5gr of unique is hard to beat For std LSWC 158gr, 4-4.4gr of AA#2 is clean, FR, and not position sensitive. 4.4gr gets to +p. So, you’re firearm dependent. You can stay at 4 gr at std pressure. AA is sometimes hard to find, but usually Easier to find or substitute Clean Shot / Shooter World / Lovex than unique. You could go 238 also. Save unique for larger and heavier doses in pistol calibers like 44/45. Maybe 7 gr and above. I call it a beat, but ymmv. For HPs, I like #5 (really fine with either bullet.) I use rimrock for both bullets. I’ll add the above data to the stash thank you for it |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 9:45:07 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My FIL left me thousands of older WC and SWC projectiles. I need to work up a load. My “happy place” 158gr SWC standard pressure load is with Win244. Clean and accurate. 158gr X-treme/Summit SWC 4gr Win244, 1.46” COAL, Remington SP 17.4” Henry Summit: 1050fps 4” 19-3 Summit: 822fps 3.25” 66-5 X-Treme: 760fps 3.25” 66-5 Summit: 815fps 2.5” 66-7 X-Treme: 715fps 2.5” 66-7 Summit: 770fps 2” Magnum Carry X-Treme: 649fps |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:30:38 AM EDT
[#11]
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110
High priced standard .38 special. LSWCHP 158 gr. https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/train-protect/train-protect/11-TP38VHP1.html Lower priced standard .38 special LSWCHP 168 gr. The federal load, and the buffalo bore, are approximations of the Federal Nyclad load used by LEO until they transitioned to 9mm. The velocity difference between the two, out of a short barrel, is about 20 FPS, with the Buffalo Bore clocking in about 850, and the Federal T&P at about 830. The old Nyclad +p was around the same velocity. I guess the difference is achieved by using a slower burning powder. Ballistics tests on both of these loads are kind of 'meh' by today's standards. However, where the metal meets the bone, in the real world, some of the loads which do great in gel don't give the expected results on the street. The Nyclad isn't one of those. In fact, pretty much the opposite. In other words, not so good in gel, but a solid performer where it really matters. Of course, there are thousands of variables in play, and we are talking about a short barrel and lower velocities. You want one shot stops and consistent performance, carry a 4 in .357. The recoil and flash are an added feature, especially at night, but they are reliably proven to be effective. I'd trust my life to real world data over Jello any day. You do you. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:33:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Up until a few years ago, my agency authorized us to carry J frame revolvers. My entire career until they disallowed them, always were issued federal Hydrashock, 147gr +P+. Apparently the extensive amount of ballistics testing that we do showed that that particular round in a short barrel revolver, had a significant tendency to y’all and create some really nasty wound channels.
Now that we don’t carry them on duty anymore when I’m off duty and carrying a revolver, it’s either that load or an underwood + P 158 grain LWSCHP |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 9:41:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110 High priced standard .38 special. LSWCHP 158 gr. https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/train-protect/train-protect/11-TP38VHP1.html Lower priced standard .38 special LSWCHP 168 gr. The federal load, and the buffalo bore, are approximations of the Federal Nyclad load used by LEO until they transitioned to 9mm. The velocity difference between the two, out of a short barrel, is about 20 FPS, with the Buffalo Bore clocking in about 850, and the Federal T&P at about 830. The old Nyclad +p was around the same velocity. I guess the difference is achieved by using a slower burning powder. Ballistics tests on both of these loads are kind of 'meh' by today's standards. However, where the metal meets the bone, in the real world, some of the loads which do great in gel don't give the expected results on the street. The Nyclad isn't one of those. In fact, pretty much the opposite. In other words, not so good in gel, but a solid performer where it really matters. Of course, there are thousands of variables in play, and we are talking about a short barrel and lower velocities. You want one shot stops and consistent performance, carry a 4 in .357. The recoil and flash are an added feature, especially at night, but they are reliably proven to be effective. I'd trust my life to real world data over Jello any day. You do you. Where is this real world data and how is it documented? |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:10:46 PM EDT
[#14]
I carry Hornady critical defense .38 SPL +P
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:12:22 PM EDT
[#15]
I use Nyclads and Golden Sabers. Don’t know if they are the best but they are what I have.
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:49:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Aight folks I gotta ask the question since this is a snub ammo thread
Y’all that know who I am also know I have made a S&W revolvers specific parts set for years That said Had a feller email a week or so ago asking if I would make a DIY hollow point tool He couldn’t find one like he had back in the day There’s one out there already but I think I could make one that’s different and accomplished more than just drilling a hole in the tip of the projo Do y’all think there’s any interest in such a tool to take any factory loaded 38/357 etc round and DIY it into an effective hollow point so you can just do a few at a time whenever you want |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 11:19:31 PM EDT
[#17]
No.
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Posted: 6/15/2024 11:30:23 PM EDT
[#18]
158gr copper washed RN .38
in the little Cobra that could....and did 
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Posted: 6/15/2024 11:55:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Lyman 358432 loaded +P.
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Posted: 6/16/2024 12:05:25 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It shoots well. But it’s expensive and I’m not sure it performs better than a flat nosed TMJ. Quote HistoryQuoted: It shoots well. But it’s expensive and I’m not sure it performs better than a flat nosed TMJ. Is there any real world data on this type ammunition? I’ve seen it against gelatin and Boston butts, but I haven’t seen where it’s been used in a self defense case. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 12:14:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 158gr copper washed RN .38 in the little Cobra that could....and did https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/183309/oswald1-3242226.jpg Sort of a weird victory lap. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 12:16:13 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aight folks I gotta ask the question since this is a snub ammo thread Y’all that know who I am also know I have made a S&W revolvers specific parts set for years That said Had a feller email a week or so ago asking if I would make a DIY hollow point tool He couldn’t find one like he had back in the day There’s one out there already but I think I could make one that’s different and accomplished more than just drilling a hole in the tip of the projo Do y’all think there’s any interest in such a tool to take any factory loaded 38/357 etc round and DIY it into an effective hollow point so you can just do a few at a time whenever you want Factory hollowpoints for SD use are defined as effective if they expand consistently in calibrated ballistic gelatin, and consistently penetrate at least 12" in that medium. Factory hollowpoints are carefully controlled for velocity range, external shape, hardness, & composition. Thus, we can evaluate a given commercial hollowpoint load as effectively meeting the FBI criteria of expansion & penetration. Here's the problem. Your tool would presumably make a specific shape of hollowpoint, no matter the composition, hardness, shape, & velocity of the bullet. Without controlling the other factors, how will you define effectiveness? |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 12:17:43 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sort of a weird victory lap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 158gr copper washed RN .38 in the little Cobra that could....and did https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/183309/oswald1-3242226.jpg Sort of a weird victory lap. It's a pretty well documented shooting. Perhaps better documented than the murder of President Kennedy. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 1:37:50 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there any real world data on this type ammunition? I’ve seen it against gelatin and Boston butts, but I haven’t seen where it’s been used in a self defense case. I read somewhere that it was a 200 Grain super police load. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 6:39:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Factory hollowpoints for SD use are defined as effective if they expand consistently in calibrated ballistic gelatin, and consistently penetrate at least 12" in that medium. Factory hollowpoints are carefully controlled for velocity range, external shape, hardness, & composition. Thus, we can evaluate a given commercial hollowpoint load as effectively meeting the FBI criteria of expansion & penetration. Here's the problem. Your tool would presumably make a specific shape of hollowpoint, no matter the composition, hardness, shape, & velocity of the bullet. Without controlling the other factors, how will you define effectiveness? Wasn’t so much about me defining effectiveness. Just something to make more of a cavity rather than a hole drilled in end of projo More about if folks thought it would be useful for them Personally I just run plain ol winchester white box 38s with the flatter meplat in my snubs and call it a day |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:37:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Factory hollowpoints for SD use are defined as effective if they expand consistently in calibrated ballistic gelatin, and consistently penetrate at least 12" in that medium. Factory hollowpoints are carefully controlled for velocity range, external shape, hardness, & composition. Thus, we can evaluate a given commercial hollowpoint load as effectively meeting the FBI criteria of expansion & penetration. Here's the problem. Your tool would presumably make a specific shape of hollowpoint, no matter the composition, hardness, shape, & velocity of the bullet. Without controlling the other factors, how will you define effectiveness? "effective" produces the Lee Harvey clinch |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 8:44:27 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 158 grain lead semi wadcutter hollowpoint + p Yup... There were some lubaloy one from Winchester many years ago, but the dead soft lead SWC-HP from Remington were about as easy to get and very reliable. Speer also had some at one point. They still sell the components. |
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Posted: 6/16/2024 9:18:09 PM EDT
[#28]
vintage Nyclad coated lead, 125gr HP's
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Posted: 6/16/2024 9:25:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Unfortunately all three of my 38s have different ammo weight preferences. That the gun shoots to point of aim is at the top of my list of requirements
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Posted: 6/16/2024 10:54:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately all three of my 38s have different ammo weight preferences. That the gun shoots to point of aim is at the top of my list of requirements At what range? |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 2:01:29 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At what range? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unfortunately all three of my 38s have different ammo weight preferences. That the gun shoots to point of aim is at the top of my list of requirements At what range? For snubs 7-Yards. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 7:22:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For snubs 7-Yards. I don't believe significant POI difference at 7 yards due to different ammo is a thing that happens. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 7:49:56 AM EDT
[#33]
I did this a while back and settled on wadcutters, standard pressure. Most of my .38 specials are lightweight or very old or both. I have Buffalo Bore and Black Hills. One has more punch cant remember which.
This thread got me looking again and I ordered some Underwood black cherry coated 150gr wadcutters to try out. Numbers look good comparatively. They must really like me! They email me multiple times per day. Awesome. So the 442 will get whichever wadcutter has the most punch. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 8:19:49 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aight folks I gotta ask the question since this is a snub ammo thread Y’all that know who I am also know I have made a S&W revolvers specific parts set for years That said Had a feller email a week or so ago asking if I would make a DIY hollow point tool He couldn’t find one like he had back in the day There’s one out there already but I think I could make one that’s different and accomplished more than just drilling a hole in the tip of the projo Do y’all think there’s any interest in such a tool to take any factory loaded 38/357 etc round and DIY it into an effective hollow point so you can just do a few at a time whenever you want I have used these for making sold mini ball into hollow points for muzzle loading rifles https://www.amazon.com/Anytime-Tools-Center-Countersink-Tooling/dp/B000N216SU But I have a metal lathe so it is centered properly when drilled A drill press can work with mounting a peace of wood and drill the hole for holding the bullet and then switch to the center drill. Hold the bullet with a soft jaw pliers |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:01:29 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't believe significant POI difference at 7 yards due to different ammo is a thing that happens. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For snubs 7-Yards. I don't believe significant POI difference at 7 yards due to different ammo is a thing that happens. Take a box of 158Gn and a box of 110Gn to the range and see for yourself. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:06:27 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal HST https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/ https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 9:37:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Federal HST https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/ https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. IIRC, other testers did not get as good results (and Lucky Gunner uses clear ballistic gelatin). That said, I bought all of it that the local Wal-Mart was clearancing out at $5/box; I think it got six or seven boxes and have shot maybe two boxes of them. I have no idea why Federal list is as a +P round, even subjectively shooting them without a chrono you can tell they're very middle of the road. The Rossi under my desk has five of them in it and I have no qualms about shooting them despite the "+P" label. If I have to pull the Rossi things have really, really gone awry though since there's 30rnds of 5.56 on tap at hand too (and a bandoleer with six more mags in the closet next to it; obviouly no kids in the house).  
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Posted: 6/17/2024 12:23:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Federal HST https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/ https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. They stopped production because it's a shit bullet. All they need to do is load their 9mm 147gr bullet to 1k fps in a 4" barrel and they'd have the best .38. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 9:37:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They stopped production because it's a shit bullet. All they need to do is load their 9mm 147gr bullet to 1k fps in a 4" barrel and they'd have the best .38. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Federal HST https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/ https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. They stopped production because it's a shit bullet. All they need to do is load their 9mm 147gr bullet to 1k fps in a 4" barrel and they'd have the best .38. that would probably be terrific bullet shape is a big factor for me, not in terms of performance, but reloads, and their 147 bullet would do nicely. I frequently carry Hornady loads as my reload purely because of the bullet shape for reload speed and reliability. |
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Posted: 6/18/2024 11:10:20 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that would probably be terrific bullet shape is a big factor for me, not in terms of performance, but reloads, and their 147 bullet would do nicely. I frequently carry Hornady loads as my reload purely because of the bullet shape for reload speed and reliability. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Federal HST https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/tested-federal-hst-38-special-p/ https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/HST-pulled-bullet.jpg That particular round is no longer in production sadly, would be the best choice. They stopped production because it's a shit bullet. All they need to do is load their 9mm 147gr bullet to 1k fps in a 4" barrel and they'd have the best .38. that would probably be terrific bullet shape is a big factor for me, not in terms of performance, but reloads, and their 147 bullet would do nicely. I frequently carry Hornady loads as my reload purely because of the bullet shape for reload speed and reliability.  Attached FileYup, they reload just fine |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 12:47:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did this a while back and settled on wadcutters, standard pressure. Most of my .38 specials are lightweight or very old or both. I have Buffalo Bore and Black Hills. One has more punch cant remember which. This thread got me looking again and I ordered some Underwood black cherry coated 150gr wadcutters to try out. Numbers look good comparatively. They must really like me! They email me multiple times per day. Awesome. So the 442 will get whichever wadcutter has the most punch. Follow up to above. The Underwoods have a definitely more noticable kick to them. Not terrible. Not +p. Plus they are hardcast. My new SD .38 spcl round for my 442.  Attached FileThe Black Hills were not as powerful and got replaced by the Underwoods. The Double Taps were way weaker and like shooting black powder. Crazy smokey. The Underwoods were the least smokey out of the group. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 12:57:36 PM EDT
[#42]
How powerful do you need wadcutters to be? Standard 700 fps 148 wadcutters act like a hole saw.
Yes, it's clear gel, but not bad from a 2" barrel: 
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Posted: 6/28/2024 12:59:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How powerful do you need wadcutters to be? Standard 700 fps 148 wadcutters act like a hole saw. Yes, it's clear gel, but not bad from a 2" barrel: https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/1200/75a76d4fa13ee04d6fa0776e64acebfb.jpg Well, that's clear gel so deduct anywhere from 10-30%. So a little extra velocity would help get them back up to 16" |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 1:44:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, that's clear gel so deduct anywhere from 10-30%. So a little extra velocity would help get them back up to 16" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How powerful do you need wadcutters to be? Standard 700 fps 148 wadcutters act like a hole saw. Yes, it's clear gel, but not bad from a 2" barrel: https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/1200/75a76d4fa13ee04d6fa0776e64acebfb.jpg Well, that's clear gel so deduct anywhere from 10-30%. So a little extra velocity would help get them back up to 16" Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 2:24:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 2:28:49 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How powerful do you need wadcutters to be? Standard 700 fps 148 wadcutters act like a hole saw. Yes, it's clear gel, but not bad from a 2" barrel: https://cdn-secure.luckygunner.com/media/catalog/product/cache/geltest/1200/75a76d4fa13ee04d6fa0776e64acebfb.jpg Well, that's clear gel so deduct anywhere from 10-30%. So a little extra velocity would help get them back up to 16" Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. That 12" is the minimum. It gives no wiggle room when you need to defeat hard barriers or hit bone. The underwood gets 1k in a 4" so would probably be around 850 in a j frame. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 2:29:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. If I only have 5 shots and a slow reload I want all the penetration I can get. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 2:30:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A flash-bang in the perp's face when you shoot them has to help your case... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. A flash-bang in the perp's face when you shoot them has to help your case... I don't think it helps the speed or accuracy of followup shots. If we just needed a single flash bang, we could all just carry a single barrel Bond Arms .45-70. |
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Posted: 6/28/2024 2:33:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I only have 5 shots and a slow reload I want all the penetration I can get. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. If I only have 5 shots and a slow reload I want all the penetration I can get. Why I sell my customers 6 shot .38 snubs and encourage them to get something more modern as a primary. Do we have any documented evidence in any US non-police civilian lawful shooting that the good guy has reloaded a revolver or semi-auto pistol during the action? |
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Posted: 7/3/2024 9:44:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why I sell my customers 6 shot .38 snubs and encourage them to get something more modern as a primary. Do we have any documented evidence in any US non-police civilian lawful shooting that the good guy has reloaded a revolver or semi-auto pistol during the action? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Given we need a minimum of 12", I'm pretty comfortable w/ standard velocity wadcutters for my customers. I have Underwood available if they want more, but I don't know how much more penetration you're going to get out of a 2" .38. Certainly a lot more noise & flash. If I only have 5 shots and a slow reload I want all the penetration I can get. Why I sell my customers 6 shot .38 snubs and encourage them to get something more modern as a primary. Do we have any documented evidence in any US non-police civilian lawful shooting that the good guy has reloaded a revolver or semi-auto pistol during the action? I know of no reload non-LE shooting that was done during contact. Though I’ve seen a few videos where someone either produced a second firearm or ran dry on the first gun and had to leave, couple theory’s with all that. One being the percentage of people carrying a firearm is relatively low the actual use is a slim percentage of that already small percentage. Within that the chances of running into someone who both runs dry and has a reload is smaller still. The other side of the same coin is you don’t tend to see the fights stretch out that long it does occur but most are looking for an easy mark and don’t continue once resistance is met. You also have a higher percentage of firearms being carried that hold more rounds than the j frame thus they have more chances prior to needing a reload in the first place. I carry a reload for a few reasons but as it pertains to the above I’ve also seen shootings in which there’s shooting a lull then more shooting because the person or persons come back or the shooting stopped because no more rounds were available. I’m also in a different use case then above and carrying a spare is to easy for me to question why I didn’t later. |
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