User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 11:46:38 AM EDT
M27 replaced the M249 in the fire team in 2010 and eventually all the M16 and M4s as well. We're 13 years into this little experiment w/ no organic belt-fed at the basic team level. How's it going? I know the Army hasn't followed suite. Is it the mistake everyone said it would be and something will come along to supplement the all-M27 equipped team or are the Marines ahead of the curve?
ETA: Current US Marine squad: 
And current US Army squad: 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:18:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: M27 replaced the M249 in the fire team in 2010 and eventually all the M16 and M4s as well. We're 13 years into this little experiment w/ no organic belt-fed at the basic team level. How's it going? I know the Army hasn't followed suite. Is it the mistake everyone said it would be and something will come along to supplement the all-M27 equipped team or are the Marines ahead of the curve? ETA: Current US Marine squad: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_d70863f38f214180a619a2cc3a5c28c7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_398,h_498,al_c,q_85,usm_0.33_1.00_0.00,enc_auto/Future%20USMC%20Squad-01.png And current US Army squad: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/a137e0_5565feb8eb7b483a82a151213d5fca65~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_390,h_490,al_c,q_85,usm_0.33_1.00_0.00,enc_auto/NEW%20US%20Army%20Rifle%20Squad-01.png I would expect that a lot fewer captured PKMs and belts are going to be making their way to the rear.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:20:40 PM EDT
[#2]
You’re going to want belt feds in the jungles, that is for sure.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:30:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Has it already been 13 years since the M27 was adopted? Holy cow, it seems like that was an active discussion here just a few months ago. Time is going by way too fast these days.
 As for OP question, I am interested to hear the responses. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:30:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Well they should be conserving ammo, right?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:31:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Sad 0331 noises.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:31:50 PM EDT
[#6]
I have actually wondered what grunts thought of this.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:34:22 PM EDT
[#7]
I had a conversation with an experienced Vietnam vet a few years ago. "Things start going your way when the beltfeds start."
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:37:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Volume of fire denies the enemy the ability to maneuver. If you can pin them down, air support or arty can do the rest. In the event of a near peer conflict they will regret this decision.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:42:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Asked my son who was a 0311 from 2013 to 2017 and he says the Saws were so clapped out and unreliable they were not missed.
That's one grunts opinion, this old grunt says a mag fed wpn cannot replace a belt fed wpn. Sometimes you need to gain fire superiority. How come the U.S. hates drum mags ? They are a bitch to hump and make noise but maybe a decent compromise? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:42:52 PM EDT
[#10]
I’ve casually talked about this with two different experienced GWOT-era Marine infantry guys and they both thought it was a good change.
Their opinion was that increased speed and mobility of the rifle squad was worth the reduction in firepower. Truly light infantry I guess. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:42:59 PM EDT
[#11]
tHiRTy rOuNDs iS sUfFiCiEnT
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:47:06 PM EDT
[#12]
What the fuck USMS? And getting rid of scout snipers?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:48:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Hard to gain fire superiority without a belt fed to lay suppressive fire. 30 rounds is gonna go pretty fast in the use.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:50:56 PM EDT
[#14]
This is the shit right here. Sig Fury .277 with a 16" barrel smokes everything else with a longer barrel.
  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 12:57:09 PM EDT
[#15]
My buddy says:
"Bring back the Stoner 63A." |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:02:13 PM EDT
[#16]
I have nothing good to say about the SAW.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:09:12 PM EDT
[#17]
I might be biased, but I think it was a poor choice. The mobility angle seems far fetched. When you start looking at all the add ons the m27 is getting pretty heavy itself. Sustained belt fed fire can be pretty effective at facilitating movement too.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:13:05 PM EDT
[#18]
How many 240s are in the weapons platoon and are attached out to the rifle platoons?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:14:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hard to gain fire superiority without a belt fed to lay suppressive fire. 30 rounds is gonna go pretty fast in the use. SF in Vietnam mostly had 20 rounders. They were tickled pink when they got 30 rounders. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:17:22 PM EDT
[#20]
I’m guessing that “maneuver” part of the equation is cheaper.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:20:46 PM EDT
[#21]
I have little doubt that they will eventually re-adopt a belt fed for the fireteams. Whether it's going to be an older system or something new like the Sig or the KAC will remain to be seen.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:21:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I might be biased, but I think it was a poor choice. The mobility angle seems far fetched. When you start looking at all the add ons the m27 is getting pretty heavy itself. Sustained belt fed fire can be pretty effective at facilitating movement too. My thought as well. I wonder if the combined rate of a fire team is now more, less, or the same since the adoption of the M27. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:27:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad 0331 noises. I'm pretty sure my cousin was still using the 249 a year ago. Maybe just exercising with it, but not issued? I've only seen him once in the last three years and he's at Lejeune now anyway. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:29:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many 240s are in the weapons platoon and are attached out to the rifle platoons? Early GWOT it was 6 guns. 2 per line platoon when attached out. No idea how weapons out was affected by the organizational changes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:31:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Early GWOT it was 6 guns. 2 per line platoon when attached out. No idea how weapons out was affected by the organizational changes. We used one 240 per squad and two SAWs in the Army as of 3 years ago, but I was mech for most of my time in. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:34:18 PM EDT
[#26]
One round, one kill.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:36:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Asked my son who was a 0311 from 2013 to 2017 and he says the Saws were so clapped out and unreliable they were not missed. That's one grunts opinion, this old grunt says a mag fed wpn cannot replace a belt fed wpn. Sometimes you need to gain fire superiority. How come the U.S. hates drum mags ? They are a bitch to hump and make noise but maybe a decent compromise? If they were clapped out, that doesn’t mean the weapon system sucks, it just means they’re worn and need to go back for depot-level maintenance/rebuild. I don’t l know about the SAW, but Shrikes need new piston rod springs and extractors periodically if you actually shoot them. Also, I thought SAWs were still available for use at the company commander’s discretion? Did that change? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:38:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... this old grunt says a mag fed wpn cannot replace a belt fed wpn. Sometimes you need to gain fire superiority. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:40:03 PM EDT
[#29]
In the airwing we were still slingin’ lead with the mini gau and m240 when I got out in ‘21.
But most of my infantry buddies happily handed over their m249s. They hated the saw. A lot of them were combat vets, too. I think it was more than just getting rid of the saw, they completely reconfigured the fire teams. Most of the guys I knew thought it was a positive change. Right or wrong, good or bad, the USMC has really shifted focus. They spent 20 years fighting as a conventional Army. They’re clearly reshaping towards being an actual light infantry naval force. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:50:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad 0331 noises. M249 was carried primarily by 11s. M240, M2 and Mk.19 are 31s, I can't imagine any 31 would be happy having to carry a SAW. Small, weak and unreliable, I mean who made this thing, it's like a gun for ants! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 1:59:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Resident KAC shill here. They should have bought KAC LMGs
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:09:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the shit right here. Sig Fury .277 with a 16" barrel smokes everything else with a longer barrel. https://cdn-bjekh.nitrocdn.com/fBAuxVeMPubiNczggfkZcthToPByJOXU/assets/static/optimized/rev-59d27d9/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/XM250.jpg https://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/SIG-Fury-stats-1536x1107.jpg https://mcarbo.americommerce.com/.Blog%20Pages%20Images/277%20Fury%20Ballistics%20Chart/277-fury-ballistics-chart.jpg Are the Marines adopting it as well? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:10:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Interesting. I was in when they were introduced. They were stone cold reliable and welcomed. You can’t run the piss out and f something for 30 years and still expect perfection. Buy some replacements.
As for the .277. Nope. Commonality of ammo is important at the squad level. Everywhere really, but especially in the squad. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:13:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If they were clapped out, that doesn’t mean the weapon system sucks, it just means they’re worn and need to go back for depot-level maintenance/rebuild. I don’t l know about the SAW, but Shrikes need new piston rod springs and extractors periodically if you actually shoot them. Also, I thought SAWs were still available for use at the company commander’s discretion? Did that change? That sounds exactly like the 249s we had in my guard units from '02-'08. Needed a depot level rework or scrap and new replacement. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:14:51 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I was in when they were introduced. They were stone cold reliable and welcomed. You can’t run the piss out and f something for 30 years and still expect perfection. Buy some replacements. As for the .277. Nope. Commonality of ammo is important at the squad level. Everywhere really, but especially in the squad. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:15:32 PM EDT
[#36]
I miss it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:20:08 PM EDT
[#37]
I was an 0351 when we went from M60 to the SAW. So, if I remember correctly, we had an M60 per squad, that the SAW replaced.
I liked both of them. Carrying either the 60 or the SAW sucked ass because that was in addition to whatever components of the weapon system we were carrying in WPNS Plt (my case, Dragon). I remember the 60 was only slightly better to hump than the SAW. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:26:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SF in Vietnam mostly had 20 rounders. They were tickled pink when they got 30 rounders. Banana clips, Brah! |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:37:58 PM EDT
[#39]
The last year or so I was in, I was an AR in the phasing between the 60 and the 240. If we didn't have the pig up and running on one or both ends of most any position or maneuver, EVERYONE looked at me (and the 249) and I was happy to help push heads down. Unfortunately with the pig(s), it was quite often that I had eyes on me.
 I had no problem with it and could see it's utility in many applications. I loved the platform except for humping the ammo along with it (but I'd been an AG in a rotation, so it was STILL lighter than the extra 60 rounds/tripod/barrel...) and I kept it in tip-top shape. I knew where/when to run whatever dry and where/when to run whatever lubed. That being said, I can't imagine what condition it was in 20 years later, especially in the hands of someone who didn't value it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:46:44 PM EDT
[#40]
Long live the belt feds!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:48:59 PM EDT
[#41]
I killed the fuck out of a Toyota hi-lux technical with a 249!
Properly maintained, the 249 was a killing machine! 18Z50 |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:52:36 PM EDT
[#42]
Its all fun and games until the enemy has belt feds, and you dont.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 2:59:25 PM EDT
[#43]
I was a SAW gunner for a time and they were worn out 20 years ago.
In the defense (a position we haven’t really been in, in decades) or supporting an assault there is nothing a belt fed. I don’t know that the SAW is the answer but a let fed machine gun of some kind is. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:01:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. I was in when they were introduced. They were stone cold reliable and welcomed. You can’t run the piss out and f something for 30 years and still expect perfection. Buy some replacements. As for the .277. Nope. Commonality of ammo is important at the squad level. Everywhere really, but especially in the squad. We had an M2 in Iraq that would only fire one shot at a time. An armorer came out and said the bitch dated back to WW2. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:01:38 PM EDT
[#45]
That was their stealthy way of getting a new rifle lol
But isn’t the SIG wunderwaffen going to be adopted by the army, so maybe the usmc too? |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:12:17 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We had an M2 in Iraq that would only fire one shot at a time. An armorer came out and said the bitch dated back to WW2. We had one that was reliable as fuck in 2014 that had 1917 stamped on the reciever. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:15:47 PM EDT
[#47]
They are going to miss it against a peer or near peer when fire superiority is required. Nothing beats a belt fed when that is the case
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:37:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Resident KAC shill here. They should have bought KAC LMGs Let me show you something. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:38:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Double.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/11/2023 3:42:05 PM EDT
[#50]
How are you supposed to implement a new weapons system (and secure a sweet post retirement board seat) with out a capacity gap?
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
.jpg)
