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Posted: 5/26/2024 11:52:50 AM EDT
[#1]
AI should replace upper management first, they’re the most worthless employees.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:29:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think you understand how ML training works. The absolutely massive data sets to train these models are sourced in highly unethical ways, which can also often be legally problematic. I know of some people who tried to be responsible in their usage and thought that they had gotten proper permissions to keep things ethically sound, only to be informed after they produced content with it that they failed to consider the base models - their fine-tuning was all cleared by the specific artists who contributed, but the base models were still trained on questionable sources, so they still couldn't avoid the ethical problems. In this discussion, it is also important to distinguish generative models - that which produce content from prompts and such - versus other types of ML-powered tools that merely act as aids, reducing busywork components. This is primarily within the realm of animation, where ML systems can provide effective inbetweening, allowing the real artists to focus on the key frames. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, it literally isn't.  It takes a hundred drawings of "cthulhu" and figures out what is common to them. Then when you ask it for a picture of "cthulhu" it uses a bigass random number, runs it through its model of "what is cthulhu?" and presents what its random noise turned into when run through the model. At no point does it ever "copy" anything, any more than Rembrandt "copied" Da Vinci when doing portraits.I don't think you understand how ML training works. The absolutely massive data sets to train these models are sourced in highly unethical ways, which can also often be legally problematic. I know of some people who tried to be responsible in their usage and thought that they had gotten proper permissions to keep things ethically sound, only to be informed after they produced content with it that they failed to consider the base models - their fine-tuning was all cleared by the specific artists who contributed, but the base models were still trained on questionable sources, so they still couldn't avoid the ethical problems. In this discussion, it is also important to distinguish generative models - that which produce content from prompts and such - versus other types of ML-powered tools that merely act as aids, reducing busywork components. This is primarily within the realm of animation, where ML systems can provide effective inbetweening, allowing the real artists to focus on the key frames. Not all the models are trained that way. IBM's granite models are not for instance. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:34:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not all the models are trained that way. IBM's granite models are not for instance. Are you saying that their training data sets were sourced entirely from either public domain works or those with consent of the author/artist? I have not seen anything stating such. What I can find on a cursory search is that apparently they have "curated" their datasets, which says nothing about the ethical problems, only about "bad data" problems. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:42:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying that their training data sets were sourced entirely from either public domain works or those with consent of the author/artist? I have not seen anything stating such. What I can find on a cursory search is that apparently they have "curated" their datasets, which says nothing about the ethical problems, only about "bad data" problems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not all the models are trained that way. IBM's granite models are not for instance. Are you saying that their training data sets were sourced entirely from either public domain works or those with consent of the author/artist? I have not seen anything stating such. What I can find on a cursory search is that apparently they have "curated" their datasets, which says nothing about the ethical problems, only about "bad data" problems. Yes. Trusted: Train models on trusted and governed data for applications that require enterprise-level transparency, governance and performance. IBM Granite was trained on enterprise-relevant content that meets rigorous data governance, regulatory and risk criteria defined and enforced by IBM’s AI Ethics principles and its Office of Privacy & Responsible Technology. I know IBM well, they didn't just make this shit up. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:51:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Just as the dirty little secret about wireless is all of the wires the dirty little secret about EV you still need the energy. Batteries don't create energy they store it. Somebody has to produce it and it has to be distributed. The batteries are inserted to coerce you to buy a product you don't need.
In terms of the lost jobs...yea it is going to decimate work as we know it in many well paying sectors. I view the emergence of AI as a disrupter that is going to shake the tree making a ton of opportunities that didn't exist exist. The dust had settled and found some steady state existence since the last major disruptor (dotcom). I also don't think the big corps you know for the most part are in a position to survive it. They are going to blockbuster, circuit city or sears themselves. Too big to fail isn't really accurate. It is more like too big to succeed and socialism bailed them out. They acquired competition and assets for decades with money stolen out of the system and donated to them. Very few innovate. Very few manufacture. They just are not producers of really anything in any sense. Money is no longer cheap and most companies you can name are run like shit. Due to the lack of production (ideas or physical assets) they can only improve their bottom line by telling their employees to fuck off. They will use AI, even when it isnt read for what they want, to do that. Planning to work for someone in many industries is going to be pretty bleak. Ultimately I think you can leverage it to actually work for yourself and have your own company. You can make a company today with AI agents on your home PC that runs pretty well. I built a marketing team and working on my programming team at the moment. I also have a R&D team in the works. TL;DR big corps are jerking off to AI not knowing they stand to lose it all because of AI and they just suck at doing successful company shit. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:53:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. I know IBM well, they didn't just make this shit up. None of that addresses what I asked. I am looking through their publications but have yet to find anything that actually addresses exactly what is in their training datasets and how they obtained them. I am highly skeptical that they were able to source sufficient base training data in the manner I said - either in the public domain, or with explicit permission. Note that one may be able to exploit existing broad agreements to legally reuse content for training purposes that was originally uploaded for other purposes. That doesn't address the ethical issue. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:54:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are sending out notices to copyright holders stating that they have done just that. The biggest players have "updated our terms of service" to rope in even more works. It's an area where Adobe has fallen behind because of ... ethics. Quote HistoryQuoted: They are sending out notices to copyright holders stating that they have done just that. The biggest players have "updated our terms of service" to rope in even more works. It's an area where Adobe has fallen behind because of ... ethics. Who is sending the notices, law firms hoping to lead the lawsuits? Training an AI model isn't "copying". Again, show me what that image was copied from. Hint: you can't. Quoted: I don't think you understand how ML training works. The absolutely massive data sets to train these models are sourced in highly unethical ways, which can also often be legally problematic. I absolutely do understand how ML training works, but let's pretend I don't so you can explain it to the class. Quoted: the base models were still trained on questionable sources, so they still couldn't avoid the ethical problems. Ah, "ethics", another way of saying "artists were copying from each other for centuries, but now that someone's programmed a computer to do it, they're pissed!" |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:56:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AI art rocks: https://img10.reactor.cc/pics/post/full/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%84%D1%83%D1%80%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8-furry-f-furry-art-8443266.jpeg https://img10.reactor.cc/pics/post/full/%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%84%D1%83%D1%80%D1%80%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8-furry-f-furry-art-8443276.jpeg Sure does let the mentally ill create a visual representation of their perversions! |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:59:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure does let the mentally ill create a visual representation of their perversions! 
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:03:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Training an AI model isn't "copying. Quote HistoryQuoted: Training an AI model isn't "copying. Creating derivative works does not require direct copying. They're derivative works. Quoted: Again, show me what that image was copied from. Hint: you can't. Does the image exist in the training data set for the model? Then it can be argued that the product of the model can be a derivative work. I will note, however, that it may be possible to legally wiggle your way out of this because of the fact that computer-generated content - such as the output from generative ML systems - is not copyrightable in the first place. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:04:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: None of that addresses what I asked. I am looking through their publications but have yet to find anything that actually addresses exactly what is in their training datasets and how they obtained them. I am highly skeptical that they were able to source sufficient base training data in the manner I said - either in the public domain, or with explicit permission. Note that one may be able to exploit existing broad agreements to legally reuse content for training purposes that was originally uploaded for other purposes. That doesn't address the ethical issue. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. I know IBM well, they didn't just make this shit up. None of that addresses what I asked. I am looking through their publications but have yet to find anything that actually addresses exactly what is in their training datasets and how they obtained them. I am highly skeptical that they were able to source sufficient base training data in the manner I said - either in the public domain, or with explicit permission. Note that one may be able to exploit existing broad agreements to legally reuse content for training purposes that was originally uploaded for other purposes. That doesn't address the ethical issue. Believe whatever you want, but if IBM says it's good, that's good enough for me. Millions of businesses world wide stake their entire business on IBM not fucking them over. https://research.ibm.com/blog/granite-code-models-open-source |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:05:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Art can only be created by humans.
AI Art is a nonsense term. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:05:17 PM EDT
[#13]
I will say that this discussion really exposes the broader divide - those who actually see art as being capable of being, well, art, and those who see art only as a commodity and nothing more.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:05:48 PM EDT
[#14]
If you don't understand how art is different I won't be able to explain it to you.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:07:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Believe whatever you want, but if IBM says it's good, that's good enough for me. Millions of businesses world wide stake their entire business on IBM not fucking them over. https://research.ibm.com/blog/granite-code-models-open-source Most companies only care about legality. Very few actually care about behaving ethically. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:09:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most companies only care about legality. Very few actually care about behaving ethically. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Believe whatever you want, but if IBM says it's good, that's good enough for me. Millions of businesses world wide stake their entire business on IBM not fucking them over. https://research.ibm.com/blog/granite-code-models-open-source Most companies only care about legality. Very few actually care about behaving ethically. You can read the links, IBM has put a lot of work into AI Ethics, probably more than a lot of companies. Or just pontificate if it makes you feel better. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:12:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can read the links, IBM has put a lot of work into AI Ethics, probably more than a lot of companies. Or just pontificate if it makes you feel better. Virtually everything I have been reading so far is about using their models. The most I have seen said about how they built them in the first place is that they filtered the data. But they haven't said what that data encompassed in the first place. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:14:26 PM EDT
[#18]
The purpose of art is to convey emotion. I dont think machines have emotion. It may be mildly amusing but will always lack sincerity. if AI art is exciting to you I think you need to look at yourself.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:14:34 PM EDT
[#19]
I am all in favor of replacing every smooth-brain that enabled duct taping a banana to a wall and calling it art.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:24:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just want more big titties I may not know much about art but I know what I like. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:27:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Let's say you want to write and self publish a novel. But you have no artistic talent and no money to pay someone who does. With AI, you can describe what you want and the AI can create it for you. So you get your cover art and it's hard to say anyone is missing out.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:33:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Big difference between a manual or skilled labor job and an artist...especially if it is an "artist" as so many are.
In this case, I will welcome our AI overlords. Let the starving artists cry to computes to save them. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:39:21 PM EDT
[#23]
AI art is best art. It’s going to revolutionize the art world. Everyone will become artists with AI.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:42:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AI art is best art. It’s going to revolutionize the art world. Everyone will become artists with AI. lol |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:52:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: AI art is best art. It’s going to revolutionize the art world. Everyone will become artists with AI. lol lol all you want. Watch and see… |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 8:53:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that this discussion really exposes the broader divide - those who actually see art as being capable of being, well, art, and those who see art only as a commodity and nothing more. Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that this discussion really exposes the broader divide - those who actually see art as being capable of being, well, art, and those who see art only as a commodity and nothing more. Quoted: If you don't understand how art is different I won't be able to explain it to you. Art is in the eye of the beholder...not in the hand of the creator |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:07:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Meh. I don't really feel like having a conversation about this. But I'll just say I probably pay closer attention to this than most and IMO AI art in some ways has turned out to be a total failure. It sucks. And before someone says it's awesome because they can prompt a program to make an image of a dog holding a gun or whatever that's not even remotely what I'm talking about. Although it is an example of one of the reasons it's a failure and why studios thinking they can have AI artists producing things for them hasn't worked out.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:15:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol all you want. Watch and see |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:24:58 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know how you answer that question. Is why I am asking it. Machines now weld better, consistently, than most average welders.... That's a good thing. I want the best welds on my car, even though it was the 2000th one made that day. Computers now simulate very complex mathematical problems way better than our best mathematicians could even dream of being able to. Which results in all kinds if crazy good heath care outcomes and products in the world that I enjoy. If AI does a better job at creating art than artists.....is that a bad thing? I don't know if the answer is yes. It doesn't seem like it's a bad thing or that big of a deal really. Like...what's going to happen in the world if tomorrow suddenly that's true. We wake up in the morning and it's 100% true that AI now makes just better art than humans. What will have actually changed that is so horrible? Machines already do all manner of shit way better than we can. That's the whole point of machines. Only when the thing is in a place where the machine can do the work, and there is an energy source for it to work. A person is still more mobile and adept to getting into human size spaces without outside power supply (at least for now). Plus, in terms of art, machines have yet to evoke as much emotion in humans as human made art can. That is where true art lies. AI just winds up copying what has already been proven to evoke emotions, but it is not really original. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:31:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the purpose of art? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: lol all you want. Watch and see Not sure honestly. Most of it is purposeless crap. AI enables the average human to create the art they personally enjoy. Anything humans can create, AI can do better. You can acknowledge it now or you can acknowledge later. You will acknowledge it though. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:34:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Although it is an example of one of the reasons it's a failure and why studios thinking they can have AI artists producing things for them hasn't worked out. They won't be relying on pure prompters... they'll use a combination of human and AI techniques. I know a professional who has done work for online gaming companies and she just uses AI to generate draft concepts, which she will use as a loose reference/starting point and completely redraw things from scratch. Her approach is more conservative - other artists could just as easily use the AI to generate a semi-finished image and then repaint/redraw portions of it to get a result in line with their expectations - this saves them 25-50% of the work easily, depending on how much of it they wish to utilize. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:37:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure honestly. Most of it is purposeless crap. AI enables the average human to create the art they personally enjoy. Anything humans can create, AI can do better. You can acknowledge it now or you can acknowledge later. You will acknowledge it though. Right. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:38:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They won't be relying on pure prompters... they'll use a combination of human and AI techniques. I know a professional who has done work for online gaming companies and she just uses AI to generate draft concepts, which she will use as a loose reference/starting point and completely redraw things from scratch. Her approach is more conservative - other artists could just as easily use the AI to generate a semi-finished image and then repaint/redraw portions of it to get a result in line with their expectations - this saves them 25-50% of the work easily, depending on how much of it they wish to utilize. Tools are helpful. I'm talking about AI doing a lot more than that. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:38:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure honestly. Most of it is purposeless crap. AI enables the average human to create the art they personally enjoy. Anything humans can create, AI can do better. You can acknowledge it now or you can acknowledge later. You will acknowledge it though. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:46:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AI can make anything that can be digitized. Show me an AI created sculpture, painting, etc... Also if art to you is something to be personally enjoyed, then enjoy all the AI art. You might also be interested in corporate sponsored art, music, and media. It's enjoyable too. AI has already been used to create sculptures...through both 3d printing, and multi axis cnc, techniques. Physical media is not a limitation. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:53:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AI has already been used to create sculptures...through both 3d printing, and multi axis cnc, techniques. Physical media is not a limitation. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:55:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Despite my best efforts, I’ve never been able to automate myself out of a job.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 9:56:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about stone carving? Wood working? You are mistaking a human loading material into a man made machine and then an algorithm that combines existing art into a sculpture that has no real reason to make the item. Call me skeptical. AI will only solidify the artists of the world once people get over the novelty of it. Agreed. I was worried but I'm not anymore. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:02:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not sure honestly. Most of it is purposeless crap. AI enables the average human to create the art they personally enjoy. Anything humans can create, AI can do better. You can acknowledge it now or you can acknowledge later. You will acknowledge it though. Right. Snark but no answer from you. Just what is the purpose of art?!? Don’t give me some romanticized crap about enriching humanity. What purpose does it serve? |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:02:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. I was worried but I'm not anymore. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How about stone carving? Wood working? You are mistaking a human loading material into a man made machine and then an algorithm that combines existing art into a sculpture that has no real reason to make the item. Call me skeptical. AI will only solidify the artists of the world once people get over the novelty of it. Agreed. I was worried but I'm not anymore. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:04:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about stone carving? Wood working? You are mistaking a human loading material into a man made machine and then an algorithm that combines existing art into a sculpture that has no real reason to make the item. Call me skeptical. AI will only solidify the artists of the world once people get over the novelty of it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: AI has already been used to create sculptures...through both 3d printing, and multi axis cnc, techniques. Physical media is not a limitation. Meh, I’m sure it will be adapted to any of those endeavors. AI’s creativity and possible uses are limitless. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:05:31 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Snark but no answer from you. Just what is the purpose of art?!? Don't give me some romanticized crap about enriching humanity. What purpose does it serve? |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, I'm sure it will be adapted to any of those endeavors. AI's creativity and possible uses are limitless. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:08:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Snark but no answer from you. Just what is the purpose of art?!? Don’t give me some romanticized crap about enriching humanity. What purpose does it serve? omg. This is why I didn't want to have this conversation. You want me to explain the purpose of art? Something so nebulous, subjective, in other ways objective, important, historical, emotional, comical, tragic, and so many other things. Probably the only thing that actually separates humanity from animals. That and the awareness needed to be inspired to create it. That's fucking crazy. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:09:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, I’m sure it will be adapted to any of those endeavors. AI’s creativity and possible uses are limitless. AI, as it is now, is not creative. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:09:53 PM EDT
[#46]
I wanna listen to a computer write a song about depression, suicide, and death. I'm sure it will be really sincere since the computer deals with those emotions on a day to day basis. Sincerity is important in music and there is nothing more sincere than an algorithm searching and combining existing song patterns.
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:12:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wanna listen to a computer write a song about depression, suicide, and death. I'm sure it will be really sincere since the computer deals with those emotions on a day to day basis. Sincerity is important in music and there is nothing more sincere than an algorithm searching and combining existing song patterns. AI can write a song based on Chris Cornell's music. But without his fucked up brain and life experience that original music wouldn't exist. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:14:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: omg. This is why I didn't want to have this conversation. You want me to explain the purpose of art? Something so nebulous, subjective, in other ways objective, important, historical, emotional, comical, tragic, and so many other things. Probably the only thing that actually separates humanity from animals. That and the awareness needed to be inspired to create it. That's fucking crazy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Snark but no answer from you. Just what is the purpose of art?!? Don’t give me some romanticized crap about enriching humanity. What purpose does it serve? omg. This is why I didn't want to have this conversation. You want me to explain the purpose of art? Something so nebulous, subjective, in other ways objective, important, historical, emotional, comical, tragic, and so many other things. Probably the only thing that actually separates humanity from animals. That and the awareness needed to be inspired to create it. That's fucking crazy. The only way AI creates "better" things for humans is if humans allow it to. And given how sheeple were so willing to obey during pandemics and also be shaped by social media, AI certainly has a chance at being allowed to. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:14:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Music has further considerations beyond those of drawn art.
 Why AI is Doomed to Fail the Musical Turing Test |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 10:15:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Music has further considerations beyond those of drawn art.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8NyEjB_XeAWriting in general. |
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