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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:06:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ Attack of facilities, works, or installations containing dangerous forces, such as dams, nuclear power plants, or facilities producing weapons of mass destruction, is permissible so long as it is conducted in accordance with other applicable rules, including the rules of discrimination and proportionality (section 5.13). DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:09:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ Attack of facilities, works, or installations containing dangerous forces, such as dams, nuclear power plants, or facilities producing weapons of mass destruction, is permissible so long as it is conducted in accordance with other applicable rules, including the rules of discrimination and proportionality (section 5.13). DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 Interesting |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:12:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: In Juneau right now... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By bigstick61: Where at? Maybe we'll cross paths. This week I'm sailing from Juneau to Haines, to Skagway, back to Haines, and then back to Juneau on a daily basis. Lots of cruise ships out and about. In Juneau right now... I'm sailing back there right now, although we're berthed well north of the cruise ship berth, in Auke Bay. If your ship ends up going to Skagway this week you'll be seeing my ship in the afternoon. We dock between the cruise ship berths. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:15:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 GD needs more posts like this. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:20:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarineGrunt: Is it me or does it look a little different? Are there different versions or possible decoy? Edit - after seeing some other pics of the system, the truck looks different on one side compared to the other. Probably legit. Still weird though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MarineGrunt: Originally Posted By Veccio: Why did they paint that fucker white? Is it me or does it look a little different? Are there different versions or possible decoy? Edit - after seeing some other pics of the system, the truck looks different on one side compared to the other. Probably legit. Still weird though. The truck is still probably painted tan like the one in the picture and the camera viewing it is IR sensitive (better in low light) which is why the colors all look a little off. The German paint is probably like our CARC paint in that it has IR camouflaging properties. As with the visual spectrum, tan stands out just as much in the IR spectrum in a woodland environment. I understand the need to get such a capable system deployed quickly but it might have been smarter to take the time to give it a paint job better suited to the terrain, especially with some proper CARC or equivalent. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:24:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ Attack of facilities, works, or installations containing dangerous forces, such as dams, nuclear power plants, or facilities producing weapons of mass destruction, is permissible so long as it is conducted in accordance with other applicable rules, including the rules of discrimination and proportionality (section 5.13). DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 From a lawyers point of view, the "may" there is key. No actual damage at all needs to occur, just a possibility. I doubt there's any solid precedent on this too. Regardless, the Russians have already violated so many other treaties and laws, no point in quibbling over this one. If they lose bad enough to have leaders put on trial, the dam attack will be the least of the charges, and if they don't lose that badly they won't care. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:26:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 I did read the article, but could not summarize it in one sentence. It is not my opinion; several EU leaders have specifically called it a war crime. https://fortune.com/2023/06/07/ukraine-dam-destroyed-allies-accuse-russia-war-crime/ From the previous article: "The military must consider whether the damage and loss incurred by civilians in such attacks are excessive compared to the concrete and direct military advantage, she said." We do not know the impact of blowing the dam yet, but it is very likely there will be many deaths. People drowning, denied drinking water, infections, and no ways to escape. All those photos of people and animals being rescued will all be used as evidence. I doubt the ICC will be lenient towards Russia, which is the aggressor in this war. Flooding whole cities to slow down a counter offensive will likely be deemed excessive. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:31:23 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I know right. Reagan too. Fuck those guys. We want a real republican like Christy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By bigstick61: Pretty much, especially considering how long he was a Democrat. I know right. Reagan too. Fuck those guys. We want a real republican like Christy. No comparison. Reagan was not a recent convert, did not destroy the party or movement and make everyone retarded, etc., unlike Trump. It does make it look more like sabotage (not that I think that's what's going on, but as was said, a case could be made for it). |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:33:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: Originally Posted By CharlieR: Originally Posted By castlebravo84: Internationally, attacking a dam like this to cause mass destruction is considered the same as using a WMD, and in fact it will have caused more loss of life and property than a small tactical nuke going off on the front line outside of a major unevacuated city. You guys need to drink some decaf. Do you know what the nickname of the RAF's 617 squadron is? I'll give you a guess. Then google it. Oder river dams. We blew them up. Killed civilians. Didn't care. The La Barquette locks in Normandy flooded the Douve River. Erwin Rommel came up with that idea. Drowned a whole lot of paratroopers in the 82nd The Roer River dams in 1944 were a US objective because we feared they would be flooded. Capturing and blowing up bridges has been a thing for hundreds of years. Water is an obstacle. Using water as an obstacle is a historical best practice. The Russians did it to hamper the Ukrainian ops and free up troops to shift right. Its not mass destruction. Its a tactical best practice. It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ This isn't a war so it doesn't count. It's a defensive operation by the brave Russian peoples to defend the world, and Ukraine, against the colonialistic expansion of NATO and the American pig-dogs. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:34:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: m24shooter]
[#10]
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:36:51 PM EDT
[#11]
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NZL
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:37:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Can we take the Trump good/bad arguments somewhere else, please?
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:38:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Freiheit8472]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Interesting Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ Attack of facilities, works, or installations containing dangerous forces, such as dams, nuclear power plants, or facilities producing weapons of mass destruction, is permissible so long as it is conducted in accordance with other applicable rules, including the rules of discrimination and proportionality (section 5.13). DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 Interesting So that technical subjective judgment is there. Also the ROE and unpunished actions of victors from previous wars shouldn’t be used as a standard for current ones. Times and judgment has changed. But tell that to the party acting in desperation-so it makes sense they would do it. I’d still hang ‘em tho. You gotta win to beat the noose. ETA- victors do write history… |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:38:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: I did read the article, but could not summarize it in one sentence. It is not my opinion; several EU leaders have specifically called it a war crime. https://fortune.com/2023/06/07/ukraine-dam-destroyed-allies-accuse-russia-war-crime/ From the previous article: "The military must consider whether the damage and loss incurred by civilians in such attacks are excessive compared to the concrete and direct military advantage, she said." We do not know the impact of blowing the dam yet, but it is very likely there will be many deaths. People drowning, denied drinking water, infections, and no ways to escape. All those photos of people and animals being rescued will all be used as evidence. I doubt the ICC will be lenient towards Russia, which is the aggressor in this war. Flooding whole cities to slow down a counter offensive will likely be deemed excessive. People die in war, and the EU clutching their pearls is nothing new. None of this specifically stands out as a war crime. Agree or not, it had a tangible military objective and the civilian deaths are not going to be staggering in number, or else it would already have been paraded on the media. Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up, which would have to be definitively proven in the first place. Stuff like destroying this dam and the use of chloropicrin irritant violating chemical weapon treaties are pretty absurd to think there will be future criminal trials over, especially if you are using infection and the displacement of animals as rationale. It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:44:47 PM EDT
[#15]
(From Russian TG)
"Here, our friends from the 40th Marine Brigade searched the abandoned bodies and equipment of their "colleagues" Marines from the 37th OBrMP of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Novodonetsk and brought various documents. Not only passports are interesting here. You would have seen how much waste paper the enemy brought with him to the assault. There are reports, and lists of personnel, and tables of callsigns together with combat control signals, staff schedules, distribution lists of dry rations and ammunition... Someone even went into the attack with a medical card, while someone held a bank contract under their heart. Now Novodonetsk is again under our control, the enemy was successfully defeated and cleared during the counterattack. Previously, the Armed Forces of Ukraine lost about 50 personnel."  Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:48:20 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigstick61: I'm sailing back there right now, although we're berthed well north of the cruise ship berth, in Auke Bay. If your ship ends up going to Skagway this week you'll be seeing my ship in the afternoon. We dock between the cruise ship berths. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bigstick61: Originally Posted By Zhukov: Originally Posted By bigstick61: Where at? Maybe we'll cross paths. This week I'm sailing from Juneau to Haines, to Skagway, back to Haines, and then back to Juneau on a daily basis. Lots of cruise ships out and about. In Juneau right now... I'm sailing back there right now, although we're berthed well north of the cruise ship berth, in Auke Bay. If your ship ends up going to Skagway this week you'll be seeing my ship in the afternoon. We dock between the cruise ship berths. Im jealous of both of you's.. love Alaska. I am going to Washington in August to do alittle fishing so Im looking forward to that! |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:51:05 PM EDT
[#17]
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MN, USA
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:53:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CS223: Never. Even in absentia, it makes not one wisp of difference to them. NATO, the UN & the West is nothing more than a paper tiger to Russia, they laugh at our legal dog & pony show. The only thing they understand is the complete and overwhelming use of force. Then they cry like the petulant little bitches they are because they got their asses spanked. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CS223: Originally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. Except for others that have pointed out that Europe has an absolute iron grasp on when warcrimes have been committed and the avenues they will employ to get their pound of flesh. |
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:53:51 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 6/7/2023 11:59:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ryan_Ruck]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up They've also said they did. Originally Posted By daemon734: It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. Well, when you have so many folks in GD going around calling it a "minor border dispute" there's bound to be some confusion. Imagine if you showed the same zeal in correcting them. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:00:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: People die in war, and the EU clutching their pearls is nothing new. None of this specifically stands out as a war crime. Agree or not, it had a tangible military objective and the civilian deaths are not going to be staggering in number, or else it would already have been paraded on the media. Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up, which would have to be definitively proven in the first place. Stuff like destroying this dam and the use of chloropicrin irritant violating chemical weapon treaties are pretty absurd to think there will be future criminal trials over, especially if you are using infection and the displacement of animals as rationale. It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: I did read the article, but could not summarize it in one sentence. It is not my opinion; several EU leaders have specifically called it a war crime. https://fortune.com/2023/06/07/ukraine-dam-destroyed-allies-accuse-russia-war-crime/ From the previous article: "The military must consider whether the damage and loss incurred by civilians in such attacks are excessive compared to the concrete and direct military advantage, she said." We do not know the impact of blowing the dam yet, but it is very likely there will be many deaths. People drowning, denied drinking water, infections, and no ways to escape. All those photos of people and animals being rescued will all be used as evidence. I doubt the ICC will be lenient towards Russia, which is the aggressor in this war. Flooding whole cities to slow down a counter offensive will likely be deemed excessive. People die in war, and the EU clutching their pearls is nothing new. None of this specifically stands out as a war crime. Agree or not, it had a tangible military objective and the civilian deaths are not going to be staggering in number, or else it would already have been paraded on the media. Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up, which would have to be definitively proven in the first place. Stuff like destroying this dam and the use of chloropicrin irritant violating chemical weapon treaties are pretty absurd to think there will be future criminal trials over, especially if you are using infection and the displacement of animals as rationale. It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. Instead of sharing your opinion prematurely, take the time to read what the world leaders say on the topic. They are the ones with access to classified information and the actual power to make policy and prosecute wars. I do not know you personally, but I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion in comparison is not even worth sharing. It just shows me that you don't have a grasp on the situation. "This is a crystal clear war crime," German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius told reporters on Wednesday during a visit to Mumbai. "This is an unbelievable act of violence and destruction which I thought even Putin would not be capable of." He said the incident was just the latest of "the many, many crimes which we have seen in Ukraine and which were committed by Russian soldiers." UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak: "I think it's abhorrent, and if indeed this attack does turn out to be intentional, it will represent a new low in the form of Russian barbarism," he told TalkTV during a trip to Washington. "It's causing enormous suffering to the Ukrainian people." Prime Minister Mark Rutte (Dutch) said he is "absolutely" operating under the assumption that Russia was responsible for blowing up a dam in the south of Ukraine. "This is a violation of international humanitarian law, which directly targets non-military, civilian infrastructure." This makes it "a real war crime," Rutte said before a debate in parliament regarding the separate issue of gas extraction in Groningen. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:04:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: Instead of sharing your opinion prematurely, take the time to read what the world leaders say on the topic. They are the ones with access to classified information and the actual power to make policy and prosecute wars. I do not know you personally, but I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion in comparison is not even worth sharing. It just shows me that you don't have a grasp on the situation. "This is a crystal clear war crime," German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius told reporters on Wednesday during a visit to Mumbai. "This is an unbelievable act of violence and destruction which I thought even Putin would not be capable of." He said the incident was just the latest of "the many, many crimes which we have seen in Ukraine and which were committed by Russian soldiers." UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak: "I think it's abhorrent, and if indeed this attack does turn out to be intentional, it will represent a new low in the form of Russian barbarism," he told TalkTV during a trip to Washington. "It's causing enormous suffering to the Ukrainian people." Prime Minister Mark Rutte (Dutch) said he is "absolutely" operating under the assumption that Russia was responsible for blowing up a dam in the south of Ukraine. "This is a violation of international humanitarian law, which directly targets non-military, civilian infrastructure." This makes it "a real war crime," Rutte said before a debate in parliament regarding the separate issue of gas extraction in Groningen. Im not presenting my opinion, I presented the statute, which doesn't support your claim. What you posted were two statements from politicians, which are designed to elicit an emotional response for a second order effect. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:18:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: People die in war, and the EU clutching their pearls is nothing new. None of this specifically stands out as a war crime. Agree or not, it had a tangible military objective and the civilian deaths are not going to be staggering in number, or else it would already have been paraded on the media. Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up, which would have to be definitively proven in the first place. Stuff like destroying this dam and the use of chloropicrin irritant violating chemical weapon treaties are pretty absurd to think there will be future criminal trials over, especially if you are using infection and the displacement of animals as rationale. It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. The death toll from all the foreseeable effects, such as the lack of clean drinking water, the spread of disease, etc, can easily get into the tens of thousands even if the kinetic force of the flooding only directly kills dozens of people. Especially on the Russian controlled side where they failed to effectively evacuate people in time. But as someone else said this is just today's war crime. Russia has been targeting civilians, hospitals, water and heating infrastructure in winter, civilian train stations, movie theaters, as well as abducting children, extra judicial killings, torture... Not like this is the one thing that makes them criminal. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:20:15 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Im not presenting my opinion, I presented the statute, which doesn't support your claim. What you posted were two statements from politicians, which are designed to elicit an emotional response for a second order effect. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: Instead of sharing your opinion prematurely, take the time to read what the world leaders say on the topic. They are the ones with access to classified information and the actual power to make policy and prosecute wars. I do not know you personally, but I'm going to hazard a guess that your opinion in comparison is not even worth sharing. It just shows me that you don't have a grasp on the situation. "This is a crystal clear war crime," German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius told reporters on Wednesday during a visit to Mumbai. "This is an unbelievable act of violence and destruction which I thought even Putin would not be capable of." He said the incident was just the latest of "the many, many crimes which we have seen in Ukraine and which were committed by Russian soldiers." UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak: "I think it's abhorrent, and if indeed this attack does turn out to be intentional, it will represent a new low in the form of Russian barbarism," he told TalkTV during a trip to Washington. "It's causing enormous suffering to the Ukrainian people." Prime Minister Mark Rutte (Dutch) said he is "absolutely" operating under the assumption that Russia was responsible for blowing up a dam in the south of Ukraine. "This is a violation of international humanitarian law, which directly targets non-military, civilian infrastructure." This makes it "a real war crime," Rutte said before a debate in parliament regarding the separate issue of gas extraction in Groningen. Im not presenting my opinion, I presented the statute, which doesn't support your claim. What you posted were two statements from politicians, which are designed to elicit an emotional response for a second order effect. You mean 3 statements from various EU leaders. The effects of this destruction will impact Ukraine for several years. This is not something Russia will be able to wipe off the table as a standard military maneuver. Even Putin is smarter than to believe that. He himself calls the destruction of the dam a war crime. "Vladimir Putin yesterday accused Ukraine of destroying the Kakhovka dam at the suggestion of the West, in what he called a "barbaric" war crime that escalated the conflict with Moscow." https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/vladimir-putin-claims-kyiv-carried-out-barbaric-war-crime-of-destroying-dam-at-the-suggestion-of-the-west/ar-AA1cgvWS |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:25:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3211-2843641.jpg https://www.mynet.com/son-dakika-dunyayi-tedirgin-eden-patlama-sonrasi-erdogan-dan-kritik-gorusme-turkiye-hazir-dedi-onerisini-zelenskiy-e-iletti-110107132465 Jeesh, never mind.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3212-2843656.jpg https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-regions/3719498-u-hersoni-pidtopleni-129-transformatornih-pidstancij-minenergo.html I would be very leery of a commission to investigate if any decisions are pinned to that. Fantastic way to drag it out for years, inconclusive, both sides share blame, let’s not escalate huh? Anyone with two brain cells knows Russia did this. They are doing it to other dams right now to flood the Donetsk area. Turning away from that for a fucking UN investigation is a hair short of Russia collusion. All of these wannabe negotiators carefully avoid suggesting they will try to convince Putin to go home. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:32:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coralreefer: I am kinda like you as well. Always enjoyed this site but this is really the first thread I have responded to. This site is full of kids, just look at all of the threads in GD that is about gaming!! All of the adults ended up in this thread and I felt like posting in something I felt close to. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By coralreefer: Originally Posted By MelGibsonEnthusiast: Originally Posted By 1Andy2: Honestly, this isn't really the place I thought it was. Outside of this thread and possibly a few of the technical forums, I'm done. I don't really care to know any more arfcommers outside of the ones I already know on a personal basis. Foreign politics has ruined this forum. I know my join date says 2021, but I've lurked here off and on since ~ 2015. It isn't even the same site it was when I first started coming here, which wasn't that long ago, really. It's sad, but I suppose it's just a reflection of American society at large. I am kinda like you as well. Always enjoyed this site but this is really the first thread I have responded to. This site is full of kids, just look at all of the threads in GD that is about gaming!! All of the adults ended up in this thread and I felt like posting in something I felt close to. Same here, joined because of this thread. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:33:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PolarBear416: The death toll from all the foreseeable effects, such as the lack of clean drinking water, the spread of disease, etc, can easily get into the tens of thousands even if the kinetic force of the flooding only directly kills dozens of people. Especially on the Russian controlled side where they failed to effectively evacuate people in time. But as someone else said this is just today's war crime. Russia has been targeting civilians, hospitals, water and heating infrastructure in winter, civilian train stations, movie theaters, as well as abducting children, extra judicial killings, torture... Not like this is the one thing that makes them criminal. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PolarBear416: Originally Posted By daemon734: People die in war, and the EU clutching their pearls is nothing new. None of this specifically stands out as a war crime. Agree or not, it had a tangible military objective and the civilian deaths are not going to be staggering in number, or else it would already have been paraded on the media. Not to mention Russia says they didn't blow it up, which would have to be definitively proven in the first place. Stuff like destroying this dam and the use of chloropicrin irritant violating chemical weapon treaties are pretty absurd to think there will be future criminal trials over, especially if you are using infection and the displacement of animals as rationale. It just shows me you don't have a grasp on how brutal large scale conflict really is. The death toll from all the foreseeable effects, such as the lack of clean drinking water, the spread of disease, etc, can easily get into the tens of thousands even if the kinetic force of the flooding only directly kills dozens of people. Especially on the Russian controlled side where they failed to effectively evacuate people in time. But as someone else said this is just today's war crime. Russia has been targeting civilians, hospitals, water and heating infrastructure in winter, civilian train stations, movie theaters, as well as abducting children, extra judicial killings, torture... Not like this is the one thing that makes them criminal. exactly the totality of russias actions in this war makes them criminal for war crimes |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:34:13 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: For some reason, Marines and cruise missiles don't sound right  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: Originally Posted By RockNwood: Not that this relates directly to Ukraine but it is something I think eventually needs to happen in the supplied weapons to Ukraine. Tomahawks, Harpies and other long range cruise missiles beyond range of Storm Shadow.
They started off carry it toward the target when the Navy corpsman pointed out it came with a mobile launcher. Much disappoint. Fix tomahawks! |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:36:47 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ERNURSE: Yes but he amount of water and destructions rivals all that put together. Ever wonder why we all got immunized for Typhus, Typhoid fever etc. it was because maybe we would have to operate in enviroments like this. This is nothing like flooded potential landing points for gliders and airborne troops. just IMO. And that was total War with the whole world openley involved Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ERNURSE: Originally Posted By CharlieR: You guys need to drink some decaf. Do you know what the nickname of the RAF's 617 squadron is? I'll give you a guess. Then google it. Oder river dams. We blew them up. Killed civilians. Didn't care. The La Barquette locks in Normandy flooded the Douve River. Erwin Rommel came up with that idea. Drowned a whole lot of paratroopers in the 82nd The Roer River dams in 1944 were a US objective because we feared they would be flooded. Capturing and blowing up bridges has been a thing for hundreds of years. Water is an obstacle. Using water as an obstacle is a historical best practice. The Russians did it to hamper the Ukrainian ops and free up troops to shift right. Its not mass destruction. Its a tactical best practice. Yes but he amount of water and destructions rivals all that put together. Ever wonder why we all got immunized for Typhus, Typhoid fever etc. it was because maybe we would have to operate in enviroments like this. This is nothing like flooded potential landing points for gliders and airborne troops. just IMO. And that was total War with the whole world openley involved Yeah, by that time we were fire bombing cities too. Is that now allowed since dams are OK? Moscow already got started! |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:44:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By strykr: Even Putin is smarter than to believe that. He himself calls the destruction of the dam a war crime. You mean political theater? Or do you really think Putin is concerned with the laws of war application of this event? For the largest IW-based conflict in history you sure do put a lot of literal faith in press releases. |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:47:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: They started off carry it toward the target when the Navy corpsman pointed out it came with a mobile launcher. Much disappoint. Fix tomahawks! |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 12:57:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Zam18th]
[#32]
Found the threads I wanted to post yesterday. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1666352735132995584.html
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Posted: 6/8/2023 1:51:42 AM EDT
[#33]
Sounds far worse for Russia than many posts so far. And I think the UA is just doing serious pressing probes yet.
 Starting June 4, Ukraine launched small attacks of platoon and company size across the front to identify hidden Russian artillery and other positions, then reportedly "methodically" smashed them with a hellfire of HIMARS and other strikes, according to the site Volya, an independent Russian-language site with security contacts in Russia and Ukraine Panicking Russian commanders "demanded reinforcements and defined the situation as critical," perceiving Ukraine's probing attacks "as the main offensive actions almost everywhere" "But the main strike of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has not yet begun, and a third of the reserves of [Russia's] Zaporizhya group are already participating in battles and suffering losses" Other details: -A Ukrainian advance west of Vuhledar threatens to cut off two Russian brigades at Velyka Novosilka. -A second Ukrainian assault developed today near Orikhiv toward Tokmak. -Russia's Dnipro Group of Forces is considering an "imminent" withdrawal from occupied Kherson to prepared defenses near Crimea and Melitopol. -Ukrainian forces are advancing around Bakhmut and may soon encircle the city. "It can be assumed that in the next two weeks or faster the city will either be completely surrounded by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, or liberated.' -Russia pulled large numbers of troops out of Luhansk to defend Bilhorod from rebel incursions and potentially mount a desperate attack on northeastern Ukraine toward Kupyansk in hopes of flanking Ukrainian forces further to the south. telegra.ph/Svodka-na-vech… |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 1:58:42 AM EDT
[#34]
“Yes Mr Han our loan was just approved and we were wondering if it’s OK if we swing by this weekend to pick up our hardware rather than waiting for normal freight? Yes, it is rather urgent, what with our inbred neighbor and all. “
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Posted: 6/8/2023 2:05:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Neat crossing of paths months later, both still alive out of Mariupol!
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IRL
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Posted: 6/8/2023 2:14:42 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 6/8/2023 2:23:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Im not presenting my opinion, I presented the statute, which doesn't support your claim. What you posted were two statements from politicians, which are designed to elicit an emotional response for a second order effect. The problem for Russia is that they have to admit that they did it to present a defense. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 4:53:45 AM EDT
[#38]
"I have kept quiet on the counteroffensive and this is by design. But I want to say this: The Russian troops at many parts of the frontline are getting pounded by tubed and rocket artillery, Storm Shadow, JDAMs etc. Sometimes tanks and IFVs join the fray. The long range strikes such as in Tokmak and Melitopol in the last hours are even more interesting. Most if not all of that "repelled" attacks Russians claim are in fact them surviving barrage after another one and having a chance to report them. In some limited cases Ukrainian forces launch probing attacks and even get through. There are already permanent liberated areas, but that is not the purpose of probing attacks. Those few videos which sometimes appear are almost all videos from Russian sources and obviously cherry-picked. But they are not impressive either. Yes, when an army advances or launches probing attacks there are inevitable losses. During D-Day allies lost 2000 men in the first hour. But the enemy loses far more and, more importantly, the enemy has already to react in a forced way. The main strike hasn't arrived, yet. It can arrive anywhere and anytime at the front, even areas which have not been intensively shelled. Btw. I'm still on track with my predictions. Russians, however, are currently burning down their limited (mobile) reserves which they have in order to deal with the current situation. Intelligence gathering plays an important role at this stage, too, without going into details. Overall what I see right now is what I would expect from an Ukrainian counteroffensive. Keep calm and wait for the events to unfold" |
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UKR
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Posted: 6/8/2023 4:54:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Good afternoon friends.
 in touch Charitable Foundation Garrison, Ukraine, Dnipro. surely you have already heard a little about us. We received from you, sweets and disguises, US flags, medicine, knives. We received your donations on our way to the front. Photo from the last trip to the front. Thank you very much to everyone who helps. But the war is not over yet and this is not a war of Ukraine, but of the entire civilized world. Again, we ask you for help. If you can send donations or boxes with help! We ask you about it! [instagram]https://www.instagram.com/cf_garnizon/[/instagram] Pay Pal: [email protected] |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 4:56:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#40]
⚡️Journalist Kazansky reported that the "cotton" in Luhansk happened on the territory of the October Revolution and Luhansk Centrokuz factories, as well as the Gloria Jeans factory.
According to the journalist, there was a base of the occupiers. Channel 24 https://twitter.com/treaschest/status/1666718927336906755 Arrival at the military bases of the Russian invaders in different areas of Lugansk. After the missile strike, a huge fire started. Pillars of black smoke visible from afar
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:02:06 AM EDT
[#41]
Timely
   
  
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:02:15 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fund_GARISSON: Good afternoon friends. in touch Charitable Foundation Garrison, Ukraine, Dnipro. surely you have already heard a little about us. We received from you, sweets and disguises, US flags, medicine, knives. We received your donations on our way to the front. Photo from the last trip to the front. Thank you very much to everyone who helps. But the war is not over yet and this is not a war of Ukraine, but of the entire civilized world. Again, we ask you for help. If you can send donations or boxes with help! We ask you about it! [instagram]https://www.instagram.com/cf_garnizon/[/instagram] Pay Pal: [email protected] https://ibb.co/3Rc2bRc @Stryker @DK-Prof @elcope |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:22:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Did anyone pick June 7 as the start date of the offensive? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kpacman: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Did anyone pick June 7 as the start date of the offensive? It was the dark of the moon On the sixth of June in an mrap hauling grunts So we crashed the gate doin' 98 I says let that armour roll Ten-Four |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:27:48 AM EDT
[#44]
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:34:43 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey:
"I have kept quiet on the counteroffensive and this is by design. But I want to say this: The Russian troops at many parts of the frontline are getting pounded by tubed and rocket artillery, Storm Shadow, JDAMs etc. Sometimes tanks and IFVs join the fray. The long range strikes such as in Tokmak and Melitopol in the last hours are even more interesting. Most if not all of that "repelled" attacks Russians claim are in fact them surviving barrage after another one and having a chance to report them. In some limited cases Ukrainian forces launch probing attacks and even get through. There are already permanent liberated areas, but that is not the purpose of probing attacks. Those few videos which sometimes appear are almost all videos from Russian sources and obviously cherry-picked. But they are not impressive either. Yes, when an army advances or launches probing attacks there are inevitable losses. During D-Day allies lost 2000 men in the first hour. But the enemy loses far more and, more importantly, the enemy has already to react in a forced way. The main strike hasn't arrived, yet. It can arrive anywhere and anytime at the front, even areas which have not been intensively shelled. Btw. I'm still on track with my predictions. Russians, however, are currently burning down their limited (mobile) reserves which they have in order to deal with the current situation. Intelligence gathering plays an important role at this stage, too, without going into details. Overall what I see right now is what I would expect from an Ukrainian counteroffensive. Keep calm and wait for the events to unfold" Tendar's assessment receives the coveted Geroman endorsement. 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:40:02 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UKjohn: It was the dark of the moon On the sixth of June in an mrap hauling grunts So we crashed the gate doin' 98 I says let that armour roll Ten-Four Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UKjohn: Originally Posted By kpacman: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Did anyone pick June 7 as the start date of the offensive? It was the dark of the moon On the sixth of June in an mrap hauling grunts So we crashed the gate doin' 98 I says let that armour roll Ten-Four I picked June 6 way back like 500 pages ago. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 5:55:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Phocks: From a lawyers point of view, the "may" there is key. No actual damage at all needs to occur, just a possibility. I doubt there's any solid precedent on this too. Regardless, the Russians have already violated so many other treaties and laws, no point in quibbling over this one. If they lose bad enough to have leaders put on trial, the dam attack will be the least of the charges, and if they don't lose that badly they won't care. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Phocks: Originally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By strykr: It likely is a war crime, and chances are we will see Russian leaders prosecuted for it at some point. "The Geneva Conventions and its protocols explicitly ban war-time attacks on "installations containing dangerous forces" such as dams due to the risk posed to civilians, a prohibition likely to come into focus after the destruction of a huge Ukrainian dam." https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-when-do-attacks-civilian-installations-amount-war-crimes-2023-06-06/ Nope. Read the rest of it. It requires a disproportionate number of civilian casualties, not just property destruction. The US DOD allows attacks on dams if the military objective is proportional to the loss of civilian life. Article 15 - Protection of works and installations containing dangerous forces Works or installations containing dangerous forces, namely dams, dykes and nuclear electrical generating stations, shall not be made the object of attack, even where these objects are military objectives, if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces and consequent severe losses among the civilian population. https://lieber.westpoint.edu/attacking-dams-part-i-customary-international-law/ Attack of facilities, works, or installations containing dangerous forces, such as dams, nuclear power plants, or facilities producing weapons of mass destruction, is permissible so long as it is conducted in accordance with other applicable rules, including the rules of discrimination and proportionality (section 5.13). DOD Law of War manual https://tjaglcspublic.army.mil/documents/27431/61281/DoD+Law+of+War+Manual+-+June+2015+Updated+Dec+2016/5a02f6f8-eff3-4e79-a46f-9cd7aac74a95 From a lawyers point of view, the "may" there is key. No actual damage at all needs to occur, just a possibility. I doubt there's any solid precedent on this too. Regardless, the Russians have already violated so many other treaties and laws, no point in quibbling over this one. If they lose bad enough to have leaders put on trial, the dam attack will be the least of the charges, and if they don't lose that badly they won't care. Ukraine will need an Israeli Mossad style agency to hunt down Russian war criminals. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 6:09:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: This appears to be a drone dropped munition fashioned from a Pitbull Energy Drink can. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203719/IMG_3208-2843475.jpg Place: #Opytne Date: 06.2023 Unit: 53 OMBr Geolocation: Description: The copter finishes off the BMP-2. Near the village of Opytne, Donetsk region. Source Subscribe | Chat channel https://t.me/WarArchive_ua/1602 Twitter post claiming Russian drop on Ukrainian BMP. https://twitter.com/maimunkanews/status/1666506165394571267 |
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USA
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Posted: 6/8/2023 6:10:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Leopard 2A4 in combat, allegedly a failed attack Beware, it's from a Russian source! What kind of optics do the A4's have? If it's real, I'm wondering why they'd attack in daylight. |
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Posted: 6/8/2023 6:14:09 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ERNURSE: Yes but he amount of water and destructions rivals all that put together. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ERNURSE: Yes but he amount of water and destructions rivals all that put together. No, it isnt. Not even close. Operation Chastise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise The two direct mine hits on the Möhnesee dam resulted in a breach around 250 feet (76 m) wide and 292 feet (89 m) deep. The destroyed dam poured around 330 million tons of water into the western Ruhr region. A torrent of water around 33 feet (10 m) high and travelling at around 15 miles per hour (24 km/h) swept through the valleys of the Möhne and Ruhr rivers. A few mines were flooded; 11 small factories and 92 houses were destroyed and 114 factories and 971 houses were damaged. The floods washed away about 25 roads, railways and bridges as the flood waters spread for around 50 miles (80 km) from the source. Estimates show that before 15 May 1943 steel production on the Ruhr was 1 million tonnes;[citation needed][clarification needed] this dropped to a quarter of that level after the raid. The Eder drains towards the east into the Fulda which runs into the Weser to the North Sea. The main purpose of the Edersee was then, as it is now, to act as a reservoir to keep the Weser and the Mittellandkanal navigable during the summer months. The wave from the breach was not strong enough to result in significant damage by the time it hit Kassel, approximately 22 miles (35 km) downstream. The greatest impact on the Ruhr armaments production was the loss of hydroelectric power. Two power stations (producing 5,100 kilowatts) associated with the dam were destroyed and seven others were damaged. This resulted in a loss of electrical power in the factories and many households in the region for two weeks. In May 1943 coal production dropped by 400,000 tons which German sources attribute to the effects of the raid.[37] According to an article by German historian Ralf Blank [de],[38] at least 1,650 people were killed: around 70 of these were in the Eder Valley, and at least 1,579 bodies were found along the Möhne and Ruhr rivers, with hundreds missing. Of the bodies found downriver of the Möhne Dam, 1,026 were foreign prisoners of war and forced labourers in different camps, mainly from the Soviet Union. Worst hit was the city of Neheim (now part of Neheim-Hüsten) at the confluence of the Möhne and Ruhr rivers, where over 800 people perished, among them at least 493 female forced labourers from the Soviet Union. Some non-German sources cite an earlier total of 749 for all foreigners in all camps in the Möhne and Ruhr valleys as the casualty count at a camp just below the Eder Dam.[32]) One source states that the raid was no more than a minor inconvenience to the Ruhr's industrial output, although that is contradicted by others.[39] The bombing boosted British morale.[40] |
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