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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 10:31:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nraheston: "Dear Mr. Joseph Biden, President of the United States of America! We express our sincere gratitude to you for the Abrams tanks that the United States is providing to Ukraine. As you probably know, we receive bonuses for destroying these tanks. We kindly ask you to send us more, as the already sent ones are very few, not enough for everyone. To find them, we will have to spend a lot of time and effort. We are ready to transfer 10% bonus to your MIR card for each destroyed tank. We believe that you are a true patriot and the best president of America. We sincerely hope for mutually beneficial cooperation."  10% for the big guy! 
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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 10:35:21 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: It does make me upset to read. It is every bit of advice I gave months ago about protecting these systems with other layered air defenses and decoys. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Lessons learned from the Patriot missile launcher attack.
Great find, I heard about that from one of the Russian sources, but couldn’t find the original. Naturally this version is rosier than the Russian one.’ It does make me upset to read. It is every bit of advice I gave months ago about protecting these systems with other layered air defenses and decoys. I don't mind Ukrainians ignoring instructions when they are not given the tools/resources to follow the instructions (see minefield breaching). But this is awful. And just plain dumb. If there's a warning of inbound, GTFO RFN! Don't form up, move as soon as there is power. And decoys...  Dumb Ukes. Hugely valuable strategic weapon systems, and they treat'em like any other piece of artillery. No! Relocate every other day. Deploy decoys for every piece in the system, multiple decoys, and crew & relocate them as well. 
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OK, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:06:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Turret thrown laterally toward the camera on left side.
Wowie! Spectacular is *definitely* the word that comes to mind. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:14:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: "Never let a good crisis go to waste." Winston Churchill. France has massive internal problems and the war in Ukraine is a great distraction. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By K0UA: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: I've got to say, I'm pretty surprised (in a good way) with the recent change in rhetoric from Macron. In addition to his recent statements, Ukraine is getting all of France's Caesar production this year, which amounts to around 75 guns. I suppose that since the next French election isn't for a few years, and since Macron won't be serving another term, that means he can ignore domestic concerns for a bit and focus on Ukraine. Since Scholtz won't take the lead, Macron has stepped in. May the Lord bless and keep him safe. At last a president with some balls. "Never let a good crisis go to waste." Winston Churchill. France has massive internal problems and the war in Ukraine is a great distraction. The war in Ukraine is an existential threat to the security of not only France but to the entire continent of Europe. And that is a fact Jack. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:36:32 PM EDT
[#6]
They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars?
Abrams? Himars? Leopards? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:45:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? Abrams? Himars? Leopards? https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html?m=1 |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 12:45:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? Abrams? Himars? Leopards? Very few. I think one confirmed HIMARS destroyed in 2 years? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:02:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:12:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Interesting. It sounds like a solid approach, and something one would miss looking just at the Division and above 'macro" level of the Ukrainian and Russian forces. Rather than attempt to meet the Russians "man for man", develop an overwhelming qualitative edge, utilizing better overall training and specialized units. Very similar to the Israeli approach, where unless they get invaded by Lichtenstein the Izzys will never be able to win in a quantitative manpower fight.  I also assume that there is probably a lot going on organizationally on both sides that we will only hear of in passing that the effectiveness will not be fully apparent until after the war.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By Easterner: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Easterner: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Capta: I think you’re buying into the Russian narrative. It took ten years to take Avdiivka, two years of which were all-out war. It cost them (per Murz, who may be close on troops but is well short on visually confirmed vehicles) 16,000 men and 300 armored vehicles. Visually confirmed vehicles losses were a lot higher than that.. Of course they have reserves, something like 8 million of them, but that is irrelevant. Yes, they go on using up their men at this rate for years. They can’t continue expending vehicles at this rate. This is a cost-benefit equation. They (most likely Putin) decided to take Avdiivka for political reasons. Reliable Russian sources like Girkin think that Avdiivka is irrelevant to the strategic situation. Ukraine defended it explicitly it to extract a cost in Russian armored vehicles, which they did. Russia invested the resources to prove they could take it at any cost. So what? If the Russians could press Ukraine more broadly with the intensity they did in Avdiivka, they would be. They can’t. Also understand that Russian efforts in the field always coincide with Russian info ops. Sine the beginning of the war the thrust of info ops has been to to say “no level of aid will help anyway, if we have to throw ten million men at Ukraine we will.” Combine this with demoralized quislings in the west who suddenly became committed isolationists, and you get the effect Russia is looking for. It is possible for everything you said to be correct, and also for Ukraine to be unable to beat Russia and for Russia to continue making incremental and costly territorial gains for the near term. How long that situation lasts, who knows? Russian (and Ukrainian) manpower will not run out in the short to medium term. But if Russia wants to take Ukraine one Avdiivka at a time, I’m all for it. Manpower is becoming a problem for Ukraine because their mobilization system is awful, and because they continue to refuse to fix it. The longer the problem goes unchecked, the worse it's going to get. There's a reason that Western observers such as Kofman who have been to Ukraine recently have been talking about how big of a problem it is. Russia is having a difficult time standing up new units, but Ukraine is having a difficult time replacing losses. Unfortunately, I think it might take something like a Kharkiv style collapse for Ukrainian political leadership to finally wake up. Even then, it'll take about an additional two to three months to get any hypothetical mobiks trained up to the standards of this war. Equipment and ammunition is a bigger problem for Ukraine. I don't think some of you realize how much damage a well equipped group of motivated individuals are causing. In my eyes, we have a lot of specialized units that plan "hunting" trips. For example, one of our drone teams is averaging 10 pieces of equipment a day (+crews). They are doing some nasty things with explosives and drones/FPVs. Guys defending the trenches 2+ years undoubtedly need a break. The whole idea of replenishment is not solely losses. Guys eventually need a break. With our specialized units, we plan a task, complete it, and come back to plan/ carry out the next. Thanks for the insight. A lot of Western observers on the ground that I generally trust (e.g., Kofman and Lee) have been mentioning manpower issues for awhile, which is what I've been basing my opinions on. But, I'll defer to you on equipment and ammo being the largest issues. The point about rotations necessitating more manpower is also well taken. More generally, how uniform is the training system on a average, if you're at liberty to say? The reason I ask is that a source I'm following on another forum has indicated that training standards aren't universal, and that this is a holdover from the static days of the Donbas War, where low attrition enabled guys to learn on the job. Would you say that's accurate? Well training to guard a trench and basic soldiering is one thing. I'd say the reason for a higher age average is that the older guys tend to have more experience. Where I am now, there is no room for inexperience or guys unwilling to do the work. You can be f'd off from these units if you aren't performing your tasks as ordered. That helps us complete tasks with better success. Command notices if we are performing to their standards. I know Ukraine regularly sends troops back to training areas for whatever their specific roles may be. Some are obviously training on new equipment. Many of the seasoned soldiers get "stuck" in a role perhaps because you can't expect extraordinary things from everyone. Others advance and gain new specializations/improve. There is a lot more to the Ukrainian military than the regular army. Drone operators are moving towards their own branch. The amount of damage they cause is amazing. Special forces battalions can also be quite the thorn in the side to Russia in completing their specialized missions. Simply put, as time goes by, good soldiers are cherry picked for more specialized roles thus increasing the effectiveness of the military as a whole. Others continue in their roles as originally intended. These are the guys that spend more time on the front holding an area. Most of the young kids go through the academy program. Others join 3rd Assault, etc, or other units if they pass selection. ETA: There are some billboards up advertising for the Armed Forces. A picture of one guy in the gym, and the other guy kitted up. "Want to look really cool?" "Join the ЗСУ"  Interesting. It sounds like a solid approach, and something one would miss looking just at the Division and above 'macro" level of the Ukrainian and Russian forces. Rather than attempt to meet the Russians "man for man", develop an overwhelming qualitative edge, utilizing better overall training and specialized units. Very similar to the Israeli approach, where unless they get invaded by Lichtenstein the Izzys will never be able to win in a quantitative manpower fight. I also assume that there is probably a lot going on organizationally on both sides that we will only hear of in passing that the effectiveness will not be fully apparent until after the war.Remember the tale about blind men describing an elephant?Easterner is dealing with one of the best parts of the said elephant. The folks who never wanted to be there and got forcibly drafted describe the units they ended up in as indistinguishable from Soviet Army. Now, of course they could be biased in their assessment because they never wanted to be there in the first place. We only have anecdata here and no hard numbers to tell what is the rule and what is an exception. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:14:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: Equipment and ammunition is a bigger problem for Ukraine. I don't think some of you realize how much damage a well equipped group of motivated individuals are causing. In my eyes, we have a lot of specialized units that plan "hunting" trips. For example, one of our drone teams is averaging 10 pieces of equipment a day (+crews). They are doing some nasty things with explosives and drones/FPVs. Guys defending the trenches 2+ years undoubtedly need a break. The whole idea of replenishment is not solely losses. Guys eventually need a break. With our specialized units, we plan a task, complete it, and come back to plan/ carry out the next. thanks for that update. i realize you can't share much based on security issues. but keep up informed as you can. we appreciate your insights and putting a 'known face' on the war -- (even though we don't know your face) stay safe -- and i wish you many successes |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:15:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Per Oryx. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. Is that destroyed HIMARS? I saw the 2 returned that were scratched up with a flat tire. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:21:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Per Oryx. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. Those are casualty figures, not losses. Heck, one of the damaged Leopards links to an article about superhuman Polish efforts to return the damaged vehicles to service. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:25:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: The war in Ukraine is an existential threat to the security of not only France but to the entire continent of Europe. And that is a fact Jack. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:31:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Then France and the rest of Europe should start ponying up more aid instead of letting the majority of the heavy lifting always fall on the backs of the same Americans they seem to despise. I think Germany is the turd in the punch bowl when it comes to Europe |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:32:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Things stay the same, until they change. When a change happens, there's a new state that doesn't look like the previous one. Russia broke the defense of Avdiivka. While it was costly, they still have reserves available to throw into the fight, to pressure anew or exploit a breakthrough. With functional reserves, with better ISR & quicker targeting of high-value targets, with guided glide bombs - the advantages are all in Russia's favor at the moment. If they continue to press and break Ukraine defense more broadly, there could be a new rate of ground & casualty losses. Past results do not assure future ones. The numbers don't lie. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:33:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Per Oryx. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. 2 of those HIMARS were NOT DESTROYED, they were sent back to the US for repairs and overhaul due to lots of effective use, and I mean LOTS of use. Leopards took quite a beating during that Spring Counter Offensive, however of those 30, multiple Leopards are being repaired in Poland and should return to service in the near future. As for the Abrams, I am unsure if any of the tank losses are total losses, I do know that all 4 of the Abrams hit had the crew survive the attacks which is what the Abrams was designed to do. High Survivability, high lethality to the enemy, capable of defeating near peer armored adversaries. These being M1A1 SA's means they are not anywhere near what the US Army / USMC has in the M1A2 SEP v3's. I believe 2 of them were also side hit, and had they been equipped with TUSK those side hits would likely not have even disabled them. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 1:56:00 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: I don't mind Ukrainians ignoring instructions when they are not given the tools/resources to follow the instructions (see minefield breaching). But this is awful. And just plain dumb. If there's a warning of inbound, GTFO RFN! Don't form up, move as soon as there is power. And decoys... Dumb Ukes. Hugely valuable strategic weapon systems, and they treat'em like any other piece of artillery. No! Relocate every other day. Deploy decoys for every piece in the system, multiple decoys, and crew & relocate them as well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Originally Posted By Prime: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Lessons learned from the Patriot missile launcher attack.
Great find, I heard about that from one of the Russian sources, but couldn’t find the original. Naturally this version is rosier than the Russian one.’ It does make me upset to read. It is every bit of advice I gave months ago about protecting these systems with other layered air defenses and decoys. I don't mind Ukrainians ignoring instructions when they are not given the tools/resources to follow the instructions (see minefield breaching). But this is awful. And just plain dumb. If there's a warning of inbound, GTFO RFN! Don't form up, move as soon as there is power. And decoys... Dumb Ukes. Hugely valuable strategic weapon systems, and they treat'em like any other piece of artillery. No! Relocate every other day. Deploy decoys for every piece in the system, multiple decoys, and crew & relocate them as well. Yes, I hope that a lot of lessons are being learned fast, this is standard procedure for us on how we use the system. I feel bad that good people had to die before the lessons were learned. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:00:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spartan0536: 2 of those HIMARS were NOT DESTROYED, they were sent back to the US for repairs and overhaul due to lots of effective use, and I mean LOTS of use. Leopards took quite a beating during that Spring Counter Offensive, however of those 30, multiple Leopards are being repaired in Poland and should return to service in the near future. As for the Abrams, I am unsure if any of the tank losses are total losses, I do know that all 4 of the Abrams hit had the crew survive the attacks which is what the Abrams was designed to do. High Survivability, high lethality to the enemy, capable of defeating near peer armored adversaries. These being M1A1 SA's means they are not anywhere near what the US Army / USMC has in the M1A2 SEP v3's. I believe 2 of them were also side hit, and had they been equipped with TUSK those side hits would likely not have even disabled them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spartan0536: Originally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. 2 of those HIMARS were NOT DESTROYED, they were sent back to the US for repairs and overhaul due to lots of effective use, and I mean LOTS of use. Leopards took quite a beating during that Spring Counter Offensive, however of those 30, multiple Leopards are being repaired in Poland and should return to service in the near future. As for the Abrams, I am unsure if any of the tank losses are total losses, I do know that all 4 of the Abrams hit had the crew survive the attacks which is what the Abrams was designed to do. High Survivability, high lethality to the enemy, capable of defeating near peer armored adversaries. These being M1A1 SA's means they are not anywhere near what the US Army / USMC has in the M1A2 SEP v3's. I believe 2 of them were also side hit, and had they been equipped with TUSK those side hits would likely not have even disabled them. The one Abrams was hit in the side going into a TUSK ERA tile with a Kornet, it shrugged it off, the second hit the side of the turret though, where there was no ARAT ERA and the blowout panels for the ammo storage did their job. So yeah, I also advised that ARAT be put on the turret sides and top to protect against heavy anti tank and drone munitions. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:03:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spartan0536: 2 of those HIMARS were NOT DESTROYED, they were sent back to the US for repairs and overhaul due to lots of effective use, and I mean LOTS of use. Leopards took quite a beating during that Spring Counter Offensive, however of those 30, multiple Leopards are being repaired in Poland and should return to service in the near future. As for the Abrams, I am unsure if any of the tank losses are total losses, I do know that all 4 of the Abrams hit had the crew survive the attacks which is what the Abrams was designed to do. High Survivability, high lethality to the enemy, capable of defeating near peer armored adversaries. These being M1A1 SA's means they are not anywhere near what the US Army / USMC has in the M1A2 SEP v3's. I believe 2 of them were also side hit, and had they been equipped with TUSK those side hits would likely not have even disabled them. The M1A1SA is used by the guard and is functionally similar though technically different to the USMC tanks. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:12:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Then France and the rest of Europe should start ponying up more aid instead of letting the majority of the heavy lifting always fall on the backs of the same Americans they seem to despise. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Originally Posted By K0UA: The war in Ukraine is an existential threat to the security of not only France but to the entire continent of Europe. And that is a fact Jack. This talking point may have had some legitimacy a few months ago. Now that US aid has more or less stopped due to a mixture of incompetence, retardation, and IO, it no longer does. Europe now is doing the heavy lifting and likely will be for the foreseeable future, given the prospects of the aid bill in Congress. We also might get to see the end of Atlanticism and what a truly geopolitically independent Europe looks like, which I don't think will be beneficial to the US. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:13:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: Is that destroyed HIMARS? I saw the 2 returned that were scratched up with a flat tire. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: Originally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. Is that destroyed HIMARS? I saw the 2 returned that were scratched up with a flat tire. No, I posted Oryx's summarized "loss" numbers. Didn't want to take the time to list individual losses and damaged items because of the Leopards. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:14:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Per Oryx. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: Originally Posted By NEXT23: They have lost how many PATRIOT launchers? Radars? 2 Launchers only Abrams? 4 Himars? 4 (Oryx missed one of the two brought back to the US for repairs) Leopards? 30 in total Per Oryx. Stridsvagn is also essentially a Leopard. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:14:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: Remember the tale about blind men describing an elephant?Easterner is dealing with one of the best parts of the said elephant. The folks who never wanted to be there and got forcibly drafted describe the units they ended up in as indistinguishable from Soviet Army. Now, of course they could be biased in their assessment because they never wanted to be there in the first place. We only have anecdata here and no hard numbers to tell what is the rule and what is an exception. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: Originally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By Easterner: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Easterner: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Capta: I think you’re buying into the Russian narrative. It took ten years to take Avdiivka, two years of which were all-out war. It cost them (per Murz, who may be close on troops but is well short on visually confirmed vehicles) 16,000 men and 300 armored vehicles. Visually confirmed vehicles losses were a lot higher than that.. Of course they have reserves, something like 8 million of them, but that is irrelevant. Yes, they go on using up their men at this rate for years. They can’t continue expending vehicles at this rate. This is a cost-benefit equation. They (most likely Putin) decided to take Avdiivka for political reasons. Reliable Russian sources like Girkin think that Avdiivka is irrelevant to the strategic situation. Ukraine defended it explicitly it to extract a cost in Russian armored vehicles, which they did. Russia invested the resources to prove they could take it at any cost. So what? If the Russians could press Ukraine more broadly with the intensity they did in Avdiivka, they would be. They can’t. Also understand that Russian efforts in the field always coincide with Russian info ops. Sine the beginning of the war the thrust of info ops has been to to say “no level of aid will help anyway, if we have to throw ten million men at Ukraine we will.” Combine this with demoralized quislings in the west who suddenly became committed isolationists, and you get the effect Russia is looking for. It is possible for everything you said to be correct, and also for Ukraine to be unable to beat Russia and for Russia to continue making incremental and costly territorial gains for the near term. How long that situation lasts, who knows? Russian (and Ukrainian) manpower will not run out in the short to medium term. But if Russia wants to take Ukraine one Avdiivka at a time, I’m all for it. Manpower is becoming a problem for Ukraine because their mobilization system is awful, and because they continue to refuse to fix it. The longer the problem goes unchecked, the worse it's going to get. There's a reason that Western observers such as Kofman who have been to Ukraine recently have been talking about how big of a problem it is. Russia is having a difficult time standing up new units, but Ukraine is having a difficult time replacing losses. Unfortunately, I think it might take something like a Kharkiv style collapse for Ukrainian political leadership to finally wake up. Even then, it'll take about an additional two to three months to get any hypothetical mobiks trained up to the standards of this war. Equipment and ammunition is a bigger problem for Ukraine. I don't think some of you realize how much damage a well equipped group of motivated individuals are causing. In my eyes, we have a lot of specialized units that plan "hunting" trips. For example, one of our drone teams is averaging 10 pieces of equipment a day (+crews). They are doing some nasty things with explosives and drones/FPVs. Guys defending the trenches 2+ years undoubtedly need a break. The whole idea of replenishment is not solely losses. Guys eventually need a break. With our specialized units, we plan a task, complete it, and come back to plan/ carry out the next. Thanks for the insight. A lot of Western observers on the ground that I generally trust (e.g., Kofman and Lee) have been mentioning manpower issues for awhile, which is what I've been basing my opinions on. But, I'll defer to you on equipment and ammo being the largest issues. The point about rotations necessitating more manpower is also well taken. More generally, how uniform is the training system on a average, if you're at liberty to say? The reason I ask is that a source I'm following on another forum has indicated that training standards aren't universal, and that this is a holdover from the static days of the Donbas War, where low attrition enabled guys to learn on the job. Would you say that's accurate? Well training to guard a trench and basic soldiering is one thing. I'd say the reason for a higher age average is that the older guys tend to have more experience. Where I am now, there is no room for inexperience or guys unwilling to do the work. You can be f'd off from these units if you aren't performing your tasks as ordered. That helps us complete tasks with better success. Command notices if we are performing to their standards. I know Ukraine regularly sends troops back to training areas for whatever their specific roles may be. Some are obviously training on new equipment. Many of the seasoned soldiers get "stuck" in a role perhaps because you can't expect extraordinary things from everyone. Others advance and gain new specializations/improve. There is a lot more to the Ukrainian military than the regular army. Drone operators are moving towards their own branch. The amount of damage they cause is amazing. Special forces battalions can also be quite the thorn in the side to Russia in completing their specialized missions. Simply put, as time goes by, good soldiers are cherry picked for more specialized roles thus increasing the effectiveness of the military as a whole. Others continue in their roles as originally intended. These are the guys that spend more time on the front holding an area. Most of the young kids go through the academy program. Others join 3rd Assault, etc, or other units if they pass selection. ETA: There are some billboards up advertising for the Armed Forces. A picture of one guy in the gym, and the other guy kitted up. "Want to look really cool?" "Join the ЗСУ" Interesting. It sounds like a solid approach, and something one would miss looking just at the Division and above 'macro" level of the Ukrainian and Russian forces. Rather than attempt to meet the Russians "man for man", develop an overwhelming qualitative edge, utilizing better overall training and specialized units. Very similar to the Israeli approach, where unless they get invaded by Lichtenstein the Izzys will never be able to win in a quantitative manpower fight. I also assume that there is probably a lot going on organizationally on both sides that we will only hear of in passing that the effectiveness will not be fully apparent until after the war.Remember the tale about blind men describing an elephant?Easterner is dealing with one of the best parts of the said elephant. The folks who never wanted to be there and got forcibly drafted describe the units they ended up in as indistinguishable from Soviet Army. Now, of course they could be biased in their assessment because they never wanted to be there in the first place. We only have anecdata here and no hard numbers to tell what is the rule and what is an exception. Yep. Sort of like the US Army, and how morale and capability can vary widely between units. Especially regarding our reserves/national guard; we have Reserve and Guard units that need significant work just to be useful and we simultaneously have Reserve and Guard units that would give the Ranger Batts or the 3rd ID a hard fight right out of the box and would compare favorably to the "elite" units of most other countries. This trend tends to be more pronounced in wartime when you are drafting folks; such as comparing the combat records of units like the "Regular" divisions, the Airborne divisions, and a few of the better Guard formations like the 37th and the 45th as opposed to the "hard luck" US Army units from the same period. Patton's true genius as a combat leader was the ability to motivate and train potential hard luck units in very short periods to function like a machine and fight like heroes. Instead of firing a lot of subordinate leaders, he ruthlessly curb-stomped the ones he considered salvageable into complying with his way of doing things and fearing pissing him off more than they feared the enemy. Unfortunately, though a lot of people like to imitate him, actual Pattons are a rare breed. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:33:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: This talking point may have had some legitimacy a few months ago. Now that US aid has more or less stopped due to a mixture of incompetence, retardation, and IO, it no longer does. Europe now is doing the heavy lifting and likely will be for the foreseeable future, given the prospects of the aid bill in Congress. We also might get to see the end of Atlanticism and what a truly geopolitically independent Europe looks like, which I don't think will be beneficial to the US. Oh come on, that's fear mongering at the highest level. NATO is not going to dissolve. The economic ties and co-dependency between Europe and the USA are too great to see that happen. The EU is a long, long way from having the military necessary to go it alone. No matter what the outcome in Ukraine the U.S. will continue to have significant influence and deep ties to Europe. Nobody is going to "go it alone." The introductory paragraph of "Red Dawn" is not going to happen, sorry to bust your bubbles folks. In fact, this entire debacle is making NATO stronger already. We just got done having the largest joint NATO exercises since the end of the Cold War (still too small, but it's a good start). We've picked up two well developed nations to the alliance, things are not bad and they're not going to get catastrophic for NATO. Let's not forget that the collective GDP of the EU is equal to or at times slightly larger than the GDP of the USA. The EU's collective GDP is roughly $17.8 Trillion! Russia's GDP is approximately $1.78 Trillion. The EU should easily be able to fund Ukraine. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:40:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capta]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Easy to explain, Putin stopped sending money. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 4xGM300m: Originally Posted By Prime:
Dear French friends, how can you explain this and what is the reason for the shift in rhetoric? Easy to explain, Putin stopped sending money. Could be a number of reasons. Yes, maybe the money stopped. However, if money continued to be effective I’m sure Russia would find a way to get it into the right hands. More likely increased scrutiny about past financial dealings would make Le Pen reluctant to continue. Miloni in Italy is a pretty good example. She’s an Italian “right wing” analog to Le Pen whom many thought would turn out to be very pro-Russia in power. However she has been relatively helpful with military aid to Ukraine and absolutely scathing in her criticism of the war. She regularly blasts Putin and Putin apologists. Before the war Italy had the most pro-Russian public opinion polling of any nation in Europe outside of Greece. That has completely flipped in the largest swing to the negative of any country in Europe. They figured out the Russian propaganda was all lies, as did Miloni. If Le Pen’s only fascination with Putin was ideological, I don’t discount the idea that the war has been a rude but genuine awakening to her. However, if Putin’s hold is compromise, then you will probably see something like Orban, where nothing matters because the FSB has a “support us or else” option. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:47:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: I don't mind Ukrainians ignoring instructions when they are not given the tools/resources to follow the instructions (see minefield breaching). But this is awful. And just plain dumb. If there's a warning of inbound, GTFO RFN! Don't form up, move as soon as there is power. And decoys... Dumb Ukes. Hugely valuable strategic weapon systems, and they treat'em like any other piece of artillery. No! Relocate every other day. Deploy decoys for every piece in the system, multiple decoys, and crew & relocate them as well. It's war. Humans are imperfect creatures that make mistakes. Could have been a comm issue, bad intelligence, complacent crew, or any combination of the above. It could also be improved detection by russia. They could have zero systems losses if they don't use the equipment. Expect bad things to happen when people are actively trying to kill you, and destroy you stuff. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:49:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Then France and the rest of Europe should start ponying up more aid instead of letting the majority of the heavy lifting always fall on the backs of the same Americans they seem to despise. Do you have any clue as to how much aid europe has given so far? |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:51:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Then France and the rest of Europe should start ponying up more aid instead of letting the majority of the heavy lifting always fall on the backs of the same Americans they seem to despise. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Quiganomics: Originally Posted By K0UA: The war in Ukraine is an existential threat to the security of not only France but to the entire continent of Europe. And that is a fact Jack. First, they are giving aid, and a lot of it. Second, the reality is that the US has the deep stocks of things Ukraine needs and the Europe does not. Simple as that. You can’t send GMLRS missiles that you don’t have. Europe thought the Cold War was over and won and they got suckered by Putin just like we got suckered. They let their defense bases atrophy, just like we did. Saying “fuck you” when they’re in need is both unjust and exactly what Putin wants. Wake up. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:54:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: Oh come on, that's fear mongering at the highest level. NATO is not going to dissolve. The economic ties and co-dependency between Europe and the USA are too great to see that happen. The EU is a long, long way from having the military necessary to go it alone. No matter what the outcome in Ukraine the U.S. will continue to have significant influence and deep ties to Europe. Nobody is going to "go it alone." The introductory paragraph of "Red Dawn" is not going to happen, sorry to bust your bubbles folks. In fact, this entire debacle is making NATO stronger already. We just got done having the largest joint NATO exercises since the end of the Cold War (still too small, but it's a good start). We've picked up two well developed nations to the alliance, things are not bad and they're not going to get catastrophic for NATO. Let's not forget that the collective GDP of the EU is equal to or at times slightly larger than the GDP of the USA. The EU's collective GDP is roughly $17.8 Trillion! Russia's GDP is approximately $1.78 Trillion. The EU should easily be able to fund Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: This talking point may have had some legitimacy a few months ago. Now that US aid has more or less stopped due to a mixture of incompetence, retardation, and IO, it no longer does. Europe now is doing the heavy lifting and likely will be for the foreseeable future, given the prospects of the aid bill in Congress. We also might get to see the end of Atlanticism and what a truly geopolitically independent Europe looks like, which I don't think will be beneficial to the US. Oh come on, that's fear mongering at the highest level. NATO is not going to dissolve. The economic ties and co-dependency between Europe and the USA are too great to see that happen. The EU is a long, long way from having the military necessary to go it alone. No matter what the outcome in Ukraine the U.S. will continue to have significant influence and deep ties to Europe. Nobody is going to "go it alone." The introductory paragraph of "Red Dawn" is not going to happen, sorry to bust your bubbles folks. In fact, this entire debacle is making NATO stronger already. We just got done having the largest joint NATO exercises since the end of the Cold War (still too small, but it's a good start). We've picked up two well developed nations to the alliance, things are not bad and they're not going to get catastrophic for NATO. Let's not forget that the collective GDP of the EU is equal to or at times slightly larger than the GDP of the USA. The EU's collective GDP is roughly $17.8 Trillion! Russia's GDP is approximately $1.78 Trillion. The EU should easily be able to fund Ukraine. NATO countries on Europe's Eastern flank view this war as being fundamentally existential, and they aren't as confident about the security promises of NATO when its largest partner is preemptively writing legislation so that the frontrunner of one of its two parties can't unilaterally withdraw (sorry if that gets too far into domestic politics). This war has gotten Finland and Sweden into NATO, but it's also been a big failure in many ways, in that it has revealed a lack of readiness and commitment on several levels. This goes for defense production and national will especially. And, GDP is only relevant to these discussions insofar as its committed to the defense industry. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:48:32 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:53:58 PM EDT
[#33]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:07:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#34]
We overlay the supply chain of components for Russian weapons. One of the examples is that they have already blocked the supply of servomotors for the production of 1,600 Shaheds and 4,000 microcircuits for cruise missiles ." |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:59:07 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:04:50 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:11:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Unknown drones reported. 5 minutes ago.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:20:33 PM EDT
[#38]
It appears as though Greece will continue supplying weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, some of which will be going through the Czech Republic and directly to Ukraine.
"Athens has notified the European Union officials in charge of coordinating assistance to Kyiv that it can supply Ukraine with ammunition this year through the Czech Republic, namely 2,000 5-inch Zuni rockets; 180 2.75-inch rockets, used in Ukraine’s successful anti-tank warfare and close to the top of the list of Ukrainian requests; 90,000 90mm projectiles, also used in anti-tank warfare, as well as anti-aircraft weapons; 4 million bullets; and 70 M114A1 US-made 155mm howitzers." 70 Howitzers is definitely good. That's in addition to the 75 or so Caesars that are coming from France this year. One thing that stands out to me as interesting is the 90,000 90mm shells. I wonder what systems those are going to be used in. Maybe M67 recoilless rifles? |
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USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:20:40 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: This talking point may have had some legitimacy a few months ago. Now that US aid has more or less stopped due to a mixture of incompetence, retardation, and IO, it no longer does. Europe now is doing the heavy lifting and likely will be for the foreseeable future, given the prospects of the aid bill in Congress. We also might get to see the end of Atlanticism and what a truly geopolitically independent Europe looks like, which I don't think will be beneficial to the US. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Quiganomics: Originally Posted By K0UA: The war in Ukraine is an existential threat to the security of not only France but to the entire continent of Europe. And that is a fact Jack. This talking point may have had some legitimacy a few months ago. Now that US aid has more or less stopped due to a mixture of incompetence, retardation, and IO, it no longer does. Europe now is doing the heavy lifting and likely will be for the foreseeable future, given the prospects of the aid bill in Congress. We also might get to see the end of Atlanticism and what a truly geopolitically independent Europe looks like, which I don't think will be beneficial to the US. If the Euros finally put up and see to their own defense it would be sorta ironic if the first POTUS they tell to go fuck themselves when he tries to make them do something is one of the “Constitutional Conservative” Fuck Ukraine crowd. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:32:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIvKH2CXUAAcc5C?format=jpg&name=medium I'm counting 9. In 2 1/2 months. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:35:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: It appears as though Greece will continue supplying weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, some of which will be going through the Czech Republic and directly to Ukraine. 70 Howitzers is definitely good. That's in addition to the 75 or so Caesars that are coming from France this year. One thing that stands out to me as interesting is the 90,000 90mm shells. I wonder what systems those are going to be used in. Maybe M67 recoilless rifles? Too bad they are the old and terribly outclassed M114 howitzers. I guess anything that can send a 155mm projectile downrange is better than nothing, but these old guns with short barrels don't have anywhere close to the same range of the M198, M777, FH-70, M109 or their Russian counterparts. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:39:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Charging_Handle: Too bad they are the old and terribly outclassed M114 howitzers. I guess anything that can send a 155mm projectile downrange is better than nothing, but these old guns with short barrels don't have anywhere close to the same range of the M198, M777, FH-70, M109 or their Russian counterparts. Pretty close to the d20/d30s |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:42:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jaehaerys]
[#43]
deaidua.
Following the meeting of the Weimar Triangle (France-Germany-Poland) today in Berlin, Germany's Chancellor announces the following immediate measures together with the French President and Polish Prime Minister to support Ukraine: -Immediately more procurement of military aid for Ukraine on the entire world market -Expansion of the production of military equipment, also in cooperation with Ukraine -Establishment of a new capability coalition (“far-reaching rocket artillery”) -Increasing support for Ukraine within the EU framework (5 billion euros via EPF, strengthening the training mission, using profits from frozen Russian assets to buy weapons for Ukraine) Tusk, Macron, and Scholz also met today. Afterwards, the three announced that a number of actions are going to be taken. One big point was that more weapons are going to be bought from outside of the EU. According to Scholz, windfall-profits of the frozen Russian investments are also going to be used for that: "We will use windfall profits from Russian assets frozen in Europe to financially support the purchase of weapons for Ukraine," announced Scholz. There was also an announcement about increasing equipment production in cooperation with Ukraine. That echoes Zelenskyy's statement from yesterday when talking with Scholtz: We also discussed defense cooperation between our states and defense companies, as well as the localization of defense manufacturing in Ukraine. I informed the Federal Chancellor about the priority needs of Ukrainian defenders: armored vehicles, artillery, and air defense. I also want to thank Germany for joining Czech efforts to obtain artillery ammunition for Ukraine. The new capability coalition will be similar to the air-defense, tank, and drone coalitions that have recently been formed. Not much more is known beyond that. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:42:50 PM EDT
[#44]
4 minutes ago.
assistance in evacuating the crew and eliminating the consequences of blocking the R-30 (SS-NX-30) "Bulava" missile in the launch silo Starting Part. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:50:07 PM EDT
[#45]
European Union: The Commission allocates €500 million to ramp up ammunition production, out of a total of €2 billion to strengthen EU's defence industry
With the support of ASAP, Europe is expected to reach an annual ammunition shell production capacity 2 million by the end of 2025. The Commission completed the evaluation under the ASAP Regulation in record time and 31 projects to assist European industry in increasing its ammunition production and readiness. The selected projects cover five areas: explosives, powder, shells, missiles, and testing and reconditioning certification. The projects will be funded with €513 million from the budgets of the EU and Norway. This funding will leverage additional investment from industry through co-financing, resulting in a total investment of around €1.4 billion in the supply chain. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:51:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#46]
Kursk, Russia drones.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:26:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 4 minutes ago.
translation? |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:30:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 4 minutes ago.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#49]
Originally Posted By doc540: translation? Originally Posted By CS223: Ain't gonna be pretty if that sucker pops. Wonder where the sub is. I can't find other reports that correlate this, but a problem with a nuclear missile and the crew leaving the submarine would be big news fast. Even a test missile problem would be news.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:41:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: 4 minutes ago.
So many Russian surface warships have become submarines, I guess it is only appropriate that we have a Russian submarine trying its best to become a surface vessel.
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