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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:37:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you still get them? Like to get some Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/139520/images_jpeg-2752045.JPG I got some of these when WM was blowing them out. Best of neither world!  Can you still get them? Like to get some Looks like you can |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:45:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Seems like a KSG, federal flight control 00B and whatever slug would let OP have what he wants.
Keltecs web site says its 50 state legal. Dunno if that's true or not based on clown world rule tho. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:47:32 PM EDT
[#3]
If I had to use a shotgun, I’d take something like a Benelli Supernova Tactical or M4 12ga. They make it very easy to swap out the round in the chamber depending on the situation.
I generally keep the gun loaded with single 0 buckshot with a few slugs on the stock that can quickly be brought to bear. I’m not a warfighter, and the only real ‘experience’ I have shooting at living things is about 2 decades of hog hunting experience in central TX. In that time, I’ve learned that under 30 yards, I’ll take a 12ga with buckshot (preferably semi auto) over any rifle. Buckshot will absolutely ruin a hogs day up close and even a ‘sorta hit’ will usually slow them down enough for the next one. Beyond 30ish yards, give me the AR or the Galil 308 Here’s one of my favorites 
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:51:23 PM EDT
[#4]
My patterns at 12 yards, with a 20ga Mossberg Shockwave..
 Attached File Attached File Attached FileGranted I don't live in a mansion like the rest of you, but my reloads are moving at 1,350 fps out of a 14" barrel. Edit-> 3 shots/ target |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:53:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah ha. Saw you are in Cali. I spent a long time there. And still visit. Have done the same travel long gun thinking. Was going the .357 lever gun route with Cali legal revolver. When I lived there, I used my Mossberg 500, 18" barrel for similar role. It was my first gun, so I had to fuck with it. Top folding stock, pistol grip pump. That stock fucking hurt to shoot slugs. BUT, it was compact and surprisingly (to me) accurate. I did a really low level "class" for an afternoon out in San Dimas and found with slugs, I could reliably hit torso targets out to 50 yards with the bead sight and was 1/3 at 100 yards. And was able to smoke clay pigeons with birdshot as well. And buckshot is just fun. Moved to free state, got ARs. Unfucked the mossberg with a 20" barrel and wood furniture. Still have the old parts. May have to pick up a maverick 88 and put the old stuff on it for the next trip out. The front pistol grip did make it more likely to snag on crap, but it did help mitigate the fucking brick to the shoulder effect of the top folding stock. OP, I get it. Semi auto would be more comfy Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Picking up a new shotgun on Friday, trying to figure out what load to have on hand. Lots of testing in the future. I guess the shotgun will tell me what to reload. When I lived there, I used my Mossberg 500, 18" barrel for similar role. It was my first gun, so I had to fuck with it. Top folding stock, pistol grip pump. That stock fucking hurt to shoot slugs. BUT, it was compact and surprisingly (to me) accurate. I did a really low level "class" for an afternoon out in San Dimas and found with slugs, I could reliably hit torso targets out to 50 yards with the bead sight and was 1/3 at 100 yards. And was able to smoke clay pigeons with birdshot as well. And buckshot is just fun. Moved to free state, got ARs. Unfucked the mossberg with a 20" barrel and wood furniture. Still have the old parts. May have to pick up a maverick 88 and put the old stuff on it for the next trip out. The front pistol grip did make it more likely to snag on crap, but it did help mitigate the fucking brick to the shoulder effect of the top folding stock. OP, I get it. Semi auto would be more comfy I have ARs and a m1a. But a featureless shotgun would be “safe” in all 50, right? Traveling though New Mexico this summer. Did they pass a semi auto ban? Ironically, my gun rights here will be better than New Mexico (if the ban passes) |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:54:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would assume 00 buck works on people too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP never took an animal on the run hanging out the window of a moving truck. Buckshot works better I see you are familiar with out of the ordinary shooting.... that Merit Badge is the most fun to get. Prairie dogs at 40mph is a hoot. Eta Rolling a coyote is fun too In fairness, no human runs as fast a a coyote and humans are slower, bigger targets. I would assume 00 buck works on people too. Was thinking a slug as well.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:56:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like a KSG, federal flight control 00B and whatever slug would let OP have what he wants. Keltecs web site says its 50 state legal. Dunno if that's true or not based on clown world rule tho. Ended up getting this:  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:57:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: shotguns are absolutely brutal at home defense/yard distances. Like, as in removing chunks of people… slugs or 00B. Yes they can be very effective for home defense. No they are not really going to take chunks out of people short of popping someone's grape from 10 feet away. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 6:59:25 PM EDT
[#9]
I’ve been at several and post shootings that involved buck and slugs. The common thing? All the intended recipients assumed room temperature.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:02:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My patterns at 12 yards, with a 20ga Mossberg Shockwave.. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472049/20210629_102736_jpg-2752273.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472049/20210629_101412_jpg-2752274.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/472049/20210629_100014_jpg-2752278.JPG Granted I don't live in a mansion like the rest of you, but my reloads are moving at 1,350 fps out of a 14" barrel. Edit-> 3 shots/ target When I powdercoated my buckshot, I got tighter patterns, OOO buck  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:03:17 PM EDT
[#11]
I've recently came to the same conclusion. My bedside long arm is my Mossberg 500 with 18.5 inch slug barrel with a small light.
I have Winchester segmented slugs and federal flight control buckshot. It's small and easy to maneuver and the light has a cap switch that can be bumped on and off. I know two people that were shot with non-buckshot and not only lived to tell about it, they were hardly injured. One was my cousin's ex-husband who I guess was an overall jerk, he was shot in the face/upper body. I don't know the details, it could have been birdshot through a .410 for all I know. It only made him uglier. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:04:44 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/139520/images_jpeg-2752045.JPG I got some of these when WM was blowing them out. Best of neither world! I got a box of those but decided the other options were better. At 15ft it probably doesn't matter. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree with this. I have done the testing. Buck is impressive at short ranges. At longer ranges it is poor. And I am a shotgun guy. Shot Pattern Rule of Thumb: For every yard past the muzzle, the pattern opens up 1 inch. 5 yards, 5 inches. 40 yards, 40 inches. (LOTS of variables here, work with me.) Etc. At 100 yards, the pattern is 100 inches, very approximately. That's 9, .36 caliber round balls in a circle 8 feet in diameter. Slow round balls. Could it kill if you got real lucky? Sure. Just a guess, but I think a heavy coat over several layers would stop a 00 buck ball at 100 yds. Would be an interesting experiment. In our events, we used buck occasionally. It's just not impressive on steel past about 15 yards. I think highly of it at likely ranges inside a typical home. Typical building material has a good chance of stopping buck, or at least slowing it waaaaay down. Slugs are another animal. I would not use in a home. The risk of overpenetration is very large. Inside 150 yds. a slug is devastating. The segmented slugs aren't supposed to overpenatrate. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:08:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is not a cowitness with the current mount. It will be when I finally get around to ordering the Airdus. Best I can do with my ipotato. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/196752/C44F4E23-A7E8-4D75-8CAA-986FDCC67CAD_jpe-2752162.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @Lungbuster Does the front sight block any view of the dot? Can you take a pic looking down the sight? Is it a cowitness? It is not a cowitness with the current mount. It will be when I finally get around to ordering the Airdus. Best I can do with my ipotato. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/196752/C44F4E23-A7E8-4D75-8CAA-986FDCC67CAD_jpe-2752162.JPG @Lungbuster Cheaper alternative to cowitness might be a Browe ultra low mount?  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:12:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Shotguns are for birds. So neither.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:12:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Rifles are better than shotguns for 99.9999999% of situations. I get it, ok? I disagree wholeheartedly. Rifles are good at doing rifle things which is placing a single projectile on target at distance. Especially if that projectile needs to penetrate body armor. Stopping a threat up close tends to take multiple projectiles to accomplish. But in looking at loads between buckshot and slugs. I’m thinking more and more of why even bother using buckshot? Because the power of buckshot comes from the near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. This overwhelms the elasticity of flesh and causes more tearing of tissue which, in turn, destroys more structures and causes more loss of blood. This is why it has proven to have the best record of stopping the hostile actions of a threat in a single application. It accomplishes this with a lower chance of overpenetration than slugs. Which is important if you are in an environment with other people...which most of us are. A hardened Brenneke slug that punches through a threat and then through your exterior wall and the exterior wall of your neighbor's house is not ideal for your defensive needs. A slug will be useful out to 100 yards while buckshot gets iffy past 35 yards. That's true. And if you are, say, hunting game along side a corn field or eliminating pests like coyotes then the distance at which you can put the projectile on target is crucial. In the specific field of self defense, engagements with long guns are happening inside the confines of a home or a suburban yard. Engagement distances are measured in feet more often than yards. And inside this envelope buckshot's superior ability to instantly stop a threat is a force multiplier for someone who is likely facing a larger number of armed opponents. In an actual shootout shotgun fight users argue “if needed” to take out a buck and load with a slug when needed. That takes time. And could end up you being dead to switch out loads. Slug select does take time. The reason why you would be doing a slug select is because you are beyond the effective range of buckshot which means you are dealing with a distance great enough to actually HAVE the time to do it. So, honest question, other than home defense where shots will always be within 25 yards why even bother with buckshot? Inside the United States, almost all violence takes place inside 25 yards. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:13:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you plan on finding yourself in mid to long range gunfights why the fuck wouldn't you just have a rifle? Maybe I like the shotgun more and am trying to make it fit all my hypothetical scenarios |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:15:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some professional African guides have their clients use 00 buck on baited leopards, at night. The guide and hunter wait in a blind just a few yards from a roped goat. Guide works the light, hunter works the shotgun. It works well, so I've read. If it works on a Big Five trophy, it must have a legit use. That’s not hunting. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:15:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oath Ammo is that which you seek, fellow traveller. https://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/OATH_12ga_expanding_D6A1893web-660x660.jpg http://oathammo.com/shotgun Garbage shells that might work, maybe |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:35:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When I powdercoated my buckshot, I got tighter patterns, OOO buck https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/60DB2BC9-FB89-498B-9CB3-AD97A9C64FCD_jpe-2752302.JPG With a 20ga? If you look in the background, you can see one of the Lee casting pots on the stainless steel bench. 
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:44:16 PM EDT
[#21]
Different tools for different jobs.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:47:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree wholeheartedly. Rifles are good at doing rifle things which is placing a single projectile on target at distance. Especially if that projectile needs to penetrate body armor. Stopping a threat up close tends to take multiple projectiles to accomplish. Because the power of buckshot comes from the near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. This overwhelms the elasticity of flesh and causes more tearing of tissue which, in turn, destroys more structures and causes more loss of blood. This is why it has proven to have the best record of stopping the hostile actions of a threat in a single application. It accomplishes this with a lower chance of overpenetration than slugs. Which is important if you are in an environment with other people...which most of us are. A hardened Brenneke slug that punches through a threat and then through your exterior wall and the exterior wall of your neighbor's house is not ideal for your defensive needs. That's true. And if you are, say, hunting game along side a corn field or eliminating pests like coyotes then the distance at which you can put the projectile on target is crucial. In the specific field of self defense, engagements with long guns are happening inside the confines of a home or a suburban yard. Engagement distances are measured in feet more often than yards. And inside this envelope buckshot's superior ability to instantly stop a threat is a force multiplier for someone who is likely facing a larger number of armed opponents. Slug select does take time. The reason why you would be doing a slug select is because you are beyond the effective range of buckshot which means you are dealing with a distance great enough to actually HAVE the time to do it. Inside the United States, almost all violence takes place inside 25 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Rifles are better than shotguns for 99.9999999% of situations. I get it, ok? I disagree wholeheartedly. Rifles are good at doing rifle things which is placing a single projectile on target at distance. Especially if that projectile needs to penetrate body armor. Stopping a threat up close tends to take multiple projectiles to accomplish. But in looking at loads between buckshot and slugs. I’m thinking more and more of why even bother using buckshot? Because the power of buckshot comes from the near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. This overwhelms the elasticity of flesh and causes more tearing of tissue which, in turn, destroys more structures and causes more loss of blood. This is why it has proven to have the best record of stopping the hostile actions of a threat in a single application. It accomplishes this with a lower chance of overpenetration than slugs. Which is important if you are in an environment with other people...which most of us are. A hardened Brenneke slug that punches through a threat and then through your exterior wall and the exterior wall of your neighbor's house is not ideal for your defensive needs. A slug will be useful out to 100 yards while buckshot gets iffy past 35 yards. That's true. And if you are, say, hunting game along side a corn field or eliminating pests like coyotes then the distance at which you can put the projectile on target is crucial. In the specific field of self defense, engagements with long guns are happening inside the confines of a home or a suburban yard. Engagement distances are measured in feet more often than yards. And inside this envelope buckshot's superior ability to instantly stop a threat is a force multiplier for someone who is likely facing a larger number of armed opponents. In an actual shootout shotgun fight users argue “if needed” to take out a buck and load with a slug when needed. That takes time. And could end up you being dead to switch out loads. Slug select does take time. The reason why you would be doing a slug select is because you are beyond the effective range of buckshot which means you are dealing with a distance great enough to actually HAVE the time to do it. So, honest question, other than home defense where shots will always be within 25 yards why even bother with buckshot? Inside the United States, almost all violence takes place inside 25 yards. Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:50:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With a 20ga? If you look in the background, you can see one of the Lee casting pots on the stainless steel bench. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When I powdercoated my buckshot, I got tighter patterns, OOO buck https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/170028/60DB2BC9-FB89-498B-9CB3-AD97A9C64FCD_jpe-2752302.JPG With a 20ga? If you look in the background, you can see one of the Lee casting pots on the stainless steel bench. 12ga. Yes, that Lee pot is a money saver. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:56:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. I wouldn’t say 00 is “useless” at 100-yards. Lucky gunner tested it and got 9” of penetration at that distance |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 7:59:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn’t say 00 is “useless” at 100-yards. Lucky gunner tested it and got 9” of penetration at that distance Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. I wouldn’t say 00 is “useless” at 100-yards. Lucky gunner tested it and got 9” of penetration at that distance Not the FBI minimum and how many shots to get a connecting pellet? How about mostly useless at 100 yards?
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:15:23 PM EDT
[#26]
My Mossberg 500 does fist size groups consistently at 50 yards with Brenneke KO slugs. I doubt, and pray, I’ll personally ever need to shoot at anything farther than that except for sporting or recreational purposes.
Besides that, at anything further than striking distance buck shot runs the risk of having a stray unintentionally hit something or someone other than my intended recipient If you’re concerned about over penetration they do make low recoil 1oz lead slugs. I have some of those as well. And yes I do keep some 00 around too but would only grab them if true rioting was happening in my very immediate area |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:18:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not the FBI minimum and how many shots to get a connecting pellet? How about mostly useless at 100 yards? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. I wouldn’t say 00 is “useless” at 100-yards. Lucky gunner tested it and got 9” of penetration at that distance Not the FBI minimum and how many shots to get a connecting pellet? How about mostly useless at 100 yards? Anyone smart is only going to be showing you alittle bit of their shoulder arm and head when they are shooting at you. A gun is useful as far as you can hit a target that size, or turn cover into concealment. I know most criminals that wind up inside your house or on the police radar are the opposite of smart. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:22:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Mossberg 500 does fist size groups consistently at 50 yards with Brenneke KO slugs. I doubt, and pray, I’ll personally ever need to shoot at anything farther than that except for sporting or recreational purposes. Besides that, at anything further than striking distance buck shot runs the risk of having a stray unintentionally hit something or someone other than my intended recipient If you’re concerned about over penetration they do make low recoil 1oz lead slugs. I have some of those as well. And yes I do keep some 00 around too but would only grab them if true rioting was happening in my very immediate area Low recoil slugs often deform less and penetrate more. The Remington “reduced recoil” slug particularly so. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:24:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My dad's old shotgun used to pattern quite well at 100 yards. I'd say the pattern was a foot wide at that range. Perfectly acceptable. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/74831/Ruger-Mini-14-Right-Magazine_jpg-2752063.JPG  |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:25:00 PM EDT
[#30]
Both. I cache a 4-1 ratio of 00 to slugs. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:26:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A salvo of 00 buck is screwing shit up at 100 yards, mayby not DRT but will put them out of the fight. What do you honestly think you’re reliably hitting at 100 yards with 00 buck? Minute of barn? |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:28:18 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Low recoil slugs often deform less and penetrate more. The Remington “reduced recoil” slug particularly so. Thank you for saying this- seriously. I honestly had no idea! |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:30:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you honestly think you’re reliably hitting at 100 yards with 00 buck? Minute of barn? Test it out and see what happens. A couple months ago I was demonstrating buckshot to a new shooter at 50-yards. 7 shots in three seconds resulted in 36 hits on a piece of printer paper. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:32:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Garand Thumb did a "how far are shotguns effective" video. I think it was Hornaday 00 buck load that put all 9 pellets on the torso and I think they all exited the torso. He (as well as myself) was surprised.
Bird shot bounced off the torso's tee-shirt.  How Far are Shotguns Deadly? BirdShot, Slugs, and 00 Buckshot |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:34:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Federal Flite Control OO is your friend
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:38:24 PM EDT
[#36]
My shotgun "work" includes competitive skeet shooting and slug hunting white tails in (formerly) shotgun only areas. 10's of thousands of skeet and probably 20-25 deer with slugs. Never shot buckshot other than for blowing up squash or cabbage. All I know is that a 1oz slugs at 30 yards on a broadside deer is outright damn horrendous and impressive. I've never felt undergunned in the woods and still carry the shotgun more often than the rifle.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:39:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for saying this- seriously. I honestly had no idea! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Low recoil slugs often deform less and penetrate more. The Remington “reduced recoil” slug particularly so. Thank you for saying this- seriously. I honestly had no idea! https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/amp/ Rem reduced recoil about 32” Win Super X about 18” |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:40:20 PM EDT
[#38]
00, slug,00, slug,00,slug etc etc
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:43:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 00, slug,00, slug,00,slug etc etc Awerbuck had a great drill. Multiple targets. With shooter in the move he would call out what target to shoot. Paper targets got slugs. Steel targets got buckshot. The drill was used to show how hard it is to count rounds in a gunfight and the problem with alternative ammunition in the mag tube. Much simpler to load with buckshot and select slugs as needed. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:44:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. Other than HD, why limit yourself using buckshot? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Way back I hunted an elk area with shotgun slugs. They can be pretty accurate. 3" Mag. 1.25 oz. When I loaded a shotgun for SD/HD I used #4 buck. Absolutely. Other than HD, why limit yourself using buckshot? Even for HD, slugs solve one of the shotgun's problems - keeping every projectile on target (OO pellets will penetrate more layers of drywall than 5 56) |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 8:48:28 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rifles are better than shotguns for 99.9999999% of situations. I get it, ok? I disagree wholeheartedly. Rifles are good at doing rifle things which is placing a single projectile on target at distance. Especially if that projectile needs to penetrate body armor. Stopping a threat up close tends to take multiple projectiles to accomplish. But in looking at loads between buckshot and slugs. I’m thinking more and more of why even bother using buckshot? Because the power of buckshot comes from the near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. This overwhelms the elasticity of flesh and causes more tearing of tissue which, in turn, destroys more structures and causes more loss of blood. This is why it has proven to have the best record of stopping the hostile actions of a threat in a single application. It accomplishes this with a lower chance of overpenetration than slugs. Which is important if you are in an environment with other people...which most of us are. A hardened Brenneke slug that punches through a threat and then through your exterior wall and the exterior wall of your neighbor's house is not ideal for your defensive needs. A slug will be useful out to 100 yards while buckshot gets iffy past 35 yards. That's true. And if you are, say, hunting game along side a corn field or eliminating pests like coyotes then the distance at which you can put the projectile on target is crucial. In the specific field of self defense, engagements with long guns are happening inside the confines of a home or a suburban yard. Engagement distances are measured in feet more often than yards. And inside this envelope buckshot's superior ability to instantly stop a threat is a force multiplier for someone who is likely facing a larger number of armed opponents. In an actual shootout shotgun fight users argue “if needed” to take out a buck and load with a slug when needed. That takes time. And could end up you being dead to switch out loads. Slug select does take time. The reason why you would be doing a slug select is because you are beyond the effective range of buckshot which means you are dealing with a distance great enough to actually HAVE the time to do it. So, honest question, other than home defense where shots will always be within 25 yards why even bother with buckshot? Inside the United States, almost all violence takes place inside 25 yards. Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. You aren’t getting the point. Your chances of needing the range of a slug are up there with winning the lottery. And if you hit the jackpot, you will have time to swap to slugs provided you have found cover. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 9:08:10 PM EDT
[#42]
Not sure. Shotguns are impressive up close. But even my 590 only holds 9 rounds. It’s great until you’re empty.
That said, the family and me shot the piss out of it today with 7.5 shot, 00 buck, and 1oz slugs. Tons of power up close. Here’s an 18”x12” silhouette freshly painted that I popped at 25 yards today with cheapo S&B 00 buck. All nine pellets on target.  Attached FileAnd an old skillet we put a 1oz slug through.  Attached File Attached FileNot that this proves a whole lot, other than shotguns fuck shit up. If not in the house, I’d still take an AR or my M1 Garand  But a 12ga is still bad news to whoever catches what’s sent from it. With proper ammo, of course. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 9:10:04 PM EDT
[#43]
No point limiting yourself to either slugs or buckshot. That said, a RDS or good GR sights (or both) extends your practical range to about 150 yds with a little practice.
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Posted: 3/19/2023 9:11:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Having used both on deer as an experiment the slugs performed way better than the buckshot
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Posted: 3/19/2023 9:39:12 PM EDT
[#45]
This is interesting as I shot both slugs and 00 today. At 50 yards, the slugs are accurate and make BIG holes in the backstop. At 50 yards, 00 makes smaller holes and are no where near as accurate as slugs. On a 24 x 24 target one shell only hit 3 places, that's not very many. Now, at 10 yards, all 9 make a big hole and even the wad makes a big hole in paper.
I still like shooting slugs for the shear fun of the total destruction they impart to stuff. I will need to replace my wood target holders and get some big steel. Semi auto AR pattern shotguns are fun! |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 9:57:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Shotguns are for shooting birds, with bird shot. /thread Ok that's fair, you can shoot two-legged varmints with bird shot in the face! I'd follow up with a slug. 
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Posted: 3/19/2023 10:00:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Are you fighting birds?
Use a fucking ar. No advantage to a shotgun. |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 10:02:10 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What do you honestly think you’re reliably hitting at 100 yards with 00 buck? Minute of barn? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A salvo of 00 buck is screwing shit up at 100 yards, mayby not DRT but will put them out of the fight. What do you honestly think you’re reliably hitting at 100 yards with 00 buck? Minute of barn? I can dump my Benelli M4 accurately in about 3-4 seconds. Last ammo I tested, I hade the best group with an IM choke IIRC about a 48" group. We are not talking birdshot here. That's 7 rounds with 9 pellets each. So 63 pellets on a shipping pallet size "area" do the math. It will still be effective. Will it punch threw a level 4 plate carrier? No Will it put a clown out of commission? yes Is an AR better past 50 yards? yes How often will u need to shoot past 10 yards to defend yourself? yeah, probably not gunna happen |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 10:03:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/amp/ Rem reduced recoil about 32” Win Super X about 18” Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Low recoil slugs often deform less and penetrate more. The Remington “reduced recoil” slug particularly so. Thank you for saying this- seriously. I honestly had no idea! https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/amp/ Rem reduced recoil about 32” Win Super X about 18” Omg- that’s insane! My assssumption was way wrong |
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Posted: 3/19/2023 10:12:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You aren’t getting the point. Your chances of needing the range of a slug are up there with winning the lottery. And if you hit the jackpot, you will have time to swap to slugs provided you have found cover. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Rifles are better than shotguns for 99.9999999% of situations. I get it, ok? I disagree wholeheartedly. Rifles are good at doing rifle things which is placing a single projectile on target at distance. Especially if that projectile needs to penetrate body armor. Stopping a threat up close tends to take multiple projectiles to accomplish. But in looking at loads between buckshot and slugs. I’m thinking more and more of why even bother using buckshot? Because the power of buckshot comes from the near simultaneous impact of multiple projectiles. This overwhelms the elasticity of flesh and causes more tearing of tissue which, in turn, destroys more structures and causes more loss of blood. This is why it has proven to have the best record of stopping the hostile actions of a threat in a single application. It accomplishes this with a lower chance of overpenetration than slugs. Which is important if you are in an environment with other people...which most of us are. A hardened Brenneke slug that punches through a threat and then through your exterior wall and the exterior wall of your neighbor's house is not ideal for your defensive needs. A slug will be useful out to 100 yards while buckshot gets iffy past 35 yards. That's true. And if you are, say, hunting game along side a corn field or eliminating pests like coyotes then the distance at which you can put the projectile on target is crucial. In the specific field of self defense, engagements with long guns are happening inside the confines of a home or a suburban yard. Engagement distances are measured in feet more often than yards. And inside this envelope buckshot's superior ability to instantly stop a threat is a force multiplier for someone who is likely facing a larger number of armed opponents. In an actual shootout shotgun fight users argue “if needed” to take out a buck and load with a slug when needed. That takes time. And could end up you being dead to switch out loads. Slug select does take time. The reason why you would be doing a slug select is because you are beyond the effective range of buckshot which means you are dealing with a distance great enough to actually HAVE the time to do it. So, honest question, other than home defense where shots will always be within 25 yards why even bother with buckshot? Inside the United States, almost all violence takes place inside 25 yards. Glad you joined the thread. My reasoning was a KISS load. 1 load that does it all. Yes buck is better up close but a slug is no slouch I don’t really think the target would notice the difference. But same slug will work to 100 yards where the buckshot is useless. You aren’t getting the point. Your chances of needing the range of a slug are up there with winning the lottery. And if you hit the jackpot, you will have time to swap to slugs provided you have found cover. I got his point. I’m just pointing out they a slug can reliably hit a man sized target from 0-100 yards. With the shooter doing his part. Can’t say the same for buckshot. Which is my point. In a firefight, why stop, drop a shell from buck to a slug? You can train for it but targets don’t follow your training. A target might appear out of nowhere when your load was for another target. A slug can handle all within shotgun ranges. |
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