Quoted:
Length and weight as per ATF prerequisites

Why 26" > will not be accepted as per ATF logic

30831Federal Register / Vol. 86, No. 110 / Thursday, June 10, 2021 / Proposed Rules
BILLING CODE 4410–FY–C

Section I. Prerequisites
As a preliminary factor when
evaluating a submitted sample, certain
prerequisites will be applied to
determine if the firearm, without the
attached ‘‘stabilizing brace,’’ will even
be considered a suitable weapon for the
brace. As described above, ‘‘stabilizing
braces’’ were originally marketed as
being designed to assist persons with
disabilities and others lacking sufficient
grip strength to control heavier pistols.
Accordingly, FATD will first examine
the submitted sample’s weapon weight
and overall length.
Weapon Weight. Weapon weight is a
key prerequisite in determining whether
a ‘‘stabilizing brace’’ is appropriately
used on a weapon. A traditional
unloaded 1911-type pistol weighs
approximately 39 ounces. Similarly, the
polymer Glock 17 weighs 39 ounces
when fully loaded. Weighing just over 2
pounds, these firearms are easily held
and fired with one hand without the
need for a ‘‘stabilizing brace,’’ as such
‘‘braces’’ are designed. This stands in
contrast to the weight of the type of
pistols or other firearms for which the
‘‘stabilizing brace’’ was designed to be
attached. The AR-type pistol, a popular
large handgun design, for example,
weighs approximately 5 to 7 pounds
(i.e., 80 ounces to 112 ounces) based on
its configuration. Such weight is more
difficult to manipulate and to keep on
target, indicating the ‘‘stabilizing brace’’
is in fact intended to assist one-handed
fire. Based on the weights stated above,
firearms weighing less than 64 ounces/
4 pounds (weighed with unloaded
magazine and accessories removed) are
not considered weapons suitable for use
with a ‘‘stabilizing brace’’ accessory
because they are more easily held and
fired with one hand without the need
for a ‘‘stabilizing brace.’’
Overall Length. The overall length of
a weapon is relevant in classifying it as
a ‘‘rifle’’ or a ‘‘pistol’’ because, as a
firearm becomes excessive in length, it
is increasingly difficult to fire with one
hand. The AR-type pistol has an overall
length between 18 and 25 inches,
depending on barrel length (due to the
necessary inclusion of the buffer tube).
Other large frame pistols range between
14 and 22 inches, such as the AK-type
DRACO, HK SP5, and CZ Scorpion
EVO. Firearms possessing an overall
length between 12 and 26 inches may be
considered pistols for which a
‘‘stabilizing brace’’ could reasonably be
attached to support one-handed fire.
Firearms with an overall length of less
than 12 inches are considered too short
to indicate any need for a ‘‘stabilizing
brace.’’ Conversely, firearms exceeding
26 inches in overall length are
impractical and inaccurate to fire one
handed, even with a ‘‘stabilizing brace,’’
due to imbalance of the weapon.

Quoted:
So after reading every post in this thread at least three times, I'm still just as confused as I was  before reading the first post.

So hypothetically speaking..... I have an AR-15 pistol.... overall length is right at 26" from the rear most portion of the buffer tube to the tip of the barrel without the muzzle device... Palmetto State armory version of the SB3 brace.. 11.5"barrel..... Romeo 5 Red Dot and cheap flip up backup sites from Amazon...

How many points do I get?

Quoted:
So after reading every post in this thread at least three times, I'm still just as confused as I was  before reading the first post.

So hypothetically speaking..... I have an AR-15 pistol.... overall length is right at 26" from the rear most portion of the buffer tube to the tip of the barrel without the muzzle device... Palmetto State armory version of the SB3 brace.. 11.5"barrel..... Romeo 5 Red Dot and cheap flip up backup sites from Amazon...

How many points do I get?

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This in itself will put you over the limit.  The sights are another point.  What does the gun weigh?

Quoted:
So after reading every post in this thread at least three times, I'm still just as confused as I was  before reading the first post.

So hypothetically speaking..... I have an AR-15 pistol.... overall length is right at 26" from the rear most portion of the buffer tube to the tip of the barrel without the muzzle device... Palmetto State armory version of the SB3 brace.. 11.5"barrel..... Romeo 5 Red Dot and cheap flip up backup sites from Amazon...

How many points do I get?

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Being ''originally designed, made and intended to fire with one hand'' are the terms required to be defined as a pistol. How someone chooses to hold the 'pistol' after the fact doesn't change that. Yea, it's silly but the definitions are legally understandable.

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If I have an upper with an FSB but no rear MBUIS, how is that counted? (It would have a red dot).

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If I have an upper with an FSB but no rear MBUIS, how is that counted? (It would have a red dot).

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Where there is a will, there is a way.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/333164/lol_PNG-2321741.JPG

I ordered these bases for a Stribog, probably fine for a 9mm/good for lower sights.

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As I mentioned, this 'points' system isn't designed or intended to offer compliance, but to make it all but impossible to achieve it without appropriately creating new laws to ban.  And even if you somehow do make it under the demerits, if they want they can still call it an illegal SBR in 'purpose' anyway, and book you for it just as bad.  So ultimately, we're just making fools of ourselves and our guns by trying to chase our tails here.  It's like saying, "you're allowed to drive your car but can't start the engine or have it move, and you'll get a demerit for having less than four wheels, but also for more than three.  But let's be very clear here, we are not banning driving your car."

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Question about this one.   Looks like patches of velcro on the handguard?  

The ATF worksheet adds 4 points for "Presence of a Secondary Grip (indicating two-handed fire)".  

Think they'd count plastic grip panels attached to a slotted handguard as a "secondary grip"?   Thinking yes.

Would they count the velcro strips(assuming they are velcro,) as a secondary grip?  

The QD sling mount looks like an interesting idea.  Thanks.

Quoted:
As I mentioned, this 'points' system isn't designed or intended to offer compliance, but to make it all but impossible to achieve it without appropriately creating new laws to ban.  And even if you somehow do make it under the demerits, if they want they can still call it an illegal SBR in 'purpose' anyway, and book you for it just as bad.  So ultimately, we're just making fools of ourselves and our guns by trying to chase our tails here.  It's like saying, "you're allowed to drive your car but can't start the engine or have it move, and you'll get a demerit for having less than four wheels, but also for more than three.  But let's be very clear here, we are not banning driving your car."

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If this goes through and we can't beat it I'm probably just going to keep mine the same other than taking off the braces.    AR pistols shoot just fine w/o them.

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If it is at 26 inches, the proposal implies that it is not eligible for a brace (and thus if you have one it would be an SBR with the 11.5" barrel).

If it is under 26 inches, that particular brace (SBA3) is already a show stopper.  If you removed the brace (and left the buffer tube), you are GTG.  Or, you can install in approved braces, and depending on the weight of your weapon, and LOP/style of the brace, you could be GTG.

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I think the kak shockwave brace actually works better than the SB3 for me anyways.... When I strap the SB3 onto my forearm it's very uncomfortable and cuts into my skin

Quoted:

If this goes through and we can't beat it I'm probably just going to keep mine the same other than taking off the braces.    AR pistols shoot just fine w/o them.

Quoted:


Question about this one.   Looks like patches of velcro on the handguard?  

The ATF worksheet adds 4 points for "Presence of a Secondary Grip (indicating two-handed fire)".  

Think they'd count plastic grip panels attached to a slotted handguard as a "secondary grip"?   Thinking yes.

Would they count the velcro strips(assuming they are velcro,) as a secondary grip?  

The QD sling mount looks like an interesting idea.  Thanks.

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Well, to be honest it was not designed for that

The Shockwave is likely to be in the same boat as the SBA3 if it is the "adjustable" version, and it doesn't have the (all important to AFT for some reason) strap.  I think the only braces that will actually pass are going to have to be clamped on or slipped on with no quick way to adjust for length, and be under 12.5" LOP.

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Right, as @Capt_Destro mentioned in his post about his Stribog, a single point sling + tension works pretty well.    

Otherwise, just to keep the brace you have to remove the backup sights (unless you use the notched pistol rear sight and that's an assumption), the grip panels on the handguard, the hand stop and watch the weight (which shouldn't be that much of an issue.)

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My guess to any such question like this is 'They would and you'd have to prove in court that they aren't', which is the main purpose....deterrence.

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Well, even if they didn't reduce the SBR/tax stamp prices as was mentioned the first times this whole hubbub came up, I'd still be fine with registering at least a few more.

Of course that means you're registered, but if they wanted to come after you they would anyway, I have a feeling that this registry doesn't make it much easier than what they can just find on you as easily as Google can map your algorithm if desired.  At this point I already have a suppressor and SBR, so they've already 'got me'.  Problem at least in my state is that the lower has to start as a pre-ban, it's not like I can just SBR an Aero lower I got stripped and built into an 'other' (compliant configuration for my state).  And if you've looked up prices for pre-bans these days.....otherwise I would already have SBR'd a couple.

So anyway, I wish luck to anyone who is going to attempt a 'compliant' braced pistol.  But at a certain point, it's a call between compliance and dignity....and in that case fuck them.  If you are in free-enough states, then great if you can still go with rifles and SBR's.  I thankfully have enough pre-ban configurations that I don't have to depend solely on pistols/'other' versions.  And if/when they come after those, then we've truly gone to hell anyway so it's gonna be game time.

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SBR in IL is a waste imo. ATF wont approve it here unless it has a 26" OAL. Kinda fucks over SMG/PDW SBRs.

Thats why pistol braces make sense here atleast. That and its legal under ccw and gets state pre-emption

Id rather just go with a 16" AR or a PW in that case.

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If you have one registered SBR, a few more isn't going to hurt (other than the wallet).  I don't have one and never will.  Sure they can find out if I have bought guns, but they can't prove I still have them.  Registering an SBR or even a can, puts you squarely in their crosshairs should they decide that you should no longer have them.  I doubt that this will happen in my lifetime, but I expect it will eventually happen and my kids will have "undocumented" momentos to do with however they please.

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I suspect this whole point system will kill manufacture of uppers with barrels less than 16 inches (outside of military and government contracts) and any lowers that start life as a pistol. End of story. For a company it's just not worth the potential liability. This is their first step in choking off the supply. Of course, I hope there's an army of 2A lawyers giving them a full broadside of injunctions against enforcement by the ATF 5 seconds after the final rule is posted.

Quoted:
I suspect this whole point system will kill manufacture of uppers with barrels less than 16 inches (outside of military and government contracts) and any lowers that start life as a pistol. End of story. For a company it's just not worth the potential liability. This is their first step in choking off the supply. Of course, I hope there's an army of 2A lawyers giving them a full broadside of injunctions against enforcement by the ATF 5 seconds after the final rule is posted.

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That might be something where you can just pin it at the length you want.   That should solve both length and quick adjust.   Pin it at something under 12.5 and call it good.  Anyone know why that wouldn't work?

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That might be something where you can just pin it at the length you want.   That should solve both length and quick adjust.   Pin it at something under 12.5 and call it good.  Anyone know why that wouldn't work?

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How are they going to let the rifle stock for pistol still be in use ?
https://i.ibb.co/3dj01Cv/Rifle-Stock.jpg" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/3dj01Cv/Rifle-Stock.jpg