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Posted: 6/14/2024 12:32:10 PM EDT
[#1]
I’ve been conversing with them about the scope for almost a week in the industry forum.
I’ve never owned a 34mm tube or a second focal plan optic. Today my decision was made somewhat easier. Griffin is running a weekend Father’s Day sale of 15% sightwide. Coupon code is DAD24. I thought it lucrative enough I was planning on posting in TEAM.  Attached File Attached FileAs far as where it’s made I don’t know. I do have several years experience with their mounts and silencers. If you follow the industry forum it’s very apparent that the owner (former sniper) wouldn’t just relabel something for a buck. It also has some great feedback from long range shooters. Griffin backs all their products and I don’t see them going away anytime soon. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 12:35:59 PM EDT
[#2]
25.75 oz? PASSing on this one sorry
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Posted: 6/14/2024 12:48:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 25.75 oz? PASSing on this one sorry As compared to what? Who offers a 10x with electronics with significant weight savings and at what price point?  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 1:18:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 25.75 oz? PASSing on this one sorry Yep, the weight 100% kills it. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 1:44:13 PM EDT
[#5]
The Razor comes in at 21.5 oz
I understand the red dots are the answer to the shooting most do with an AR, but if your ‘scoping’ an AR for distance duty what 10x compares? I’m here for learning and always appreciate alternatives. edit- An etched reticle is also important to me. edit- Scoping AR was bad analogy because it’s going on an M1a. sorry for the confusion but it did berth a good discussion. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 2:06:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Razor comes in at 21.5 oz I understand the red dots are the answer to the shooting most do with an AR, but if your ‘scoping’ an AR for distance duty what 10x compares? I’m here for learning and always appreciate alternatives. Dump the 1x, if you think you need 10x. LVPO's are not the jack of all that some make them out to be. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 2:17:45 PM EDT
[#7]
You know where it's made.
That being said I hope it's a decent optic, but I'm not holding my breath. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 3:55:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dump the 1x, if you think you need 10x. LVPO's are not the jack of all that some make them out to be. I think LPVO has a place. My 1-6 is almost as fast as my T2 when on 1X and nice that it'll go up to 6X. That said, I agree that if you need that 10X, better off getting a real scope. A quality 3-9X with a top or 45 degree mounted RMR for 1X would make more sense. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 4:16:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think LPVO has a place. My 1-6 is almost as fast as my T2 when on 1X and nice that it'll go up to 6X. That said, I agree that if you need that 10X, better off getting a real scope. A quality 3-9X with a top or 45 degree mounted RMR for 1X would make more sense. I have a 1-6x LPVO that I do like. Key point, 1-6x. When you start stretching the top end it adds weight and combine that with FFP and illumination and you gain more weight. Weight drops when you increase the bottom end magnification. Most high mag LPVO's flat suck @ 8x and above when it comes to light and eyebox. The larger tube may help in that regard, but you pay a weight penalty. Get off the 1x bottom if you primarily want to shoot far far away as it does nothing significant for you. A compact 3-9x without illumination along a piggyback mrds will weigh a lot less than that pig and be more effective. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 4:32:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a 1-6x LPVO that I do like. Key point, 1-6x. When you start stretching the top end it adds weight and combine that with FFP and illumination and you gain more weight. Weight drops when you increase the bottom end magnification. Most high mag LPVO's flat suck @ 8x and above when it comes to light and eyebox. The larger tube may help in that regard, but you pay a weight penalty. Get off the 1x bottom if you primarily want to shoot far far away as it does nothing significant for you. A compact 3-9x without illumination along a piggyback mrds will weigh a lot less than that pig and be more effective. Yup, completely agree. 
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Posted: 6/14/2024 4:39:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Appreciate the well thought out advice.
It’s all in the details. It will replacing my Vortex Viper 2 x 10 on an M1a in EBR chassis. Not a clone but it’s a ton of fun. From the bench!  Attached File(My fault, no way you could have deduced that lol.) Again, I appreciate the perspective. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 5:21:19 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 6/14/2024 7:34:26 PM EDT
[#13]
This scope looks like the Primary Arms SLX 1-10x28 but with slightly different features. Feels like a cash-in.
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Posted: 6/14/2024 7:54:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think this is the next evolution in AR optics. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0529_jpeg-3240865.JPG Other than the fact that they forgot to consider a piggyback mrds location. They could have extended the shroud in front for ARD and a platform for a reflex, but they went all in on the compact aspect. Another near-miss by PA |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 8:06:36 PM EDT
[#15]
I envision that technology and maybe even ‘style’ but with variable power somewhat like zoom on a camera.
They are probably working on stuff beyond that. I’m not very mobile these days but it looks like it rocks for drills. I’ve seen a lot of good reviews but have not handled one yet. |
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Posted: 6/14/2024 9:02:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Other than the fact that they forgot to consider a piggyback mrds location. They could have extended the shroud in front for ARD and a platform for a reflex, but they went all in on the compact aspect. Another near-miss by PA Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think this is the next evolution in AR optics. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0529_jpeg-3240865.JPG Other than the fact that they forgot to consider a piggyback mrds location. They could have extended the shroud in front for ARD and a platform for a reflex, but they went all in on the compact aspect. Another near-miss by PA I would absolutely jump on the 5x if they had a built in MRDS platform on it. I may still try one one of these days with the Heromod mount. I really wish they would add a non chevron reticle to that one and some others though. 
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Posted: 6/15/2024 12:37:39 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would absolutely jump on the 5x if they had a built in MRDS platform on it. I may still try one one of these days with the Heromod mount. I really wish they would add a non chevron reticle to that one and some others though. Amen, brother! |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 3:38:10 AM EDT
[#18]
1X exit pupil and you.
Exit pupil is the viewing width in which the optic can transmit light. This equates to two things: Light gathering, and eye box. This model is listed as 8.8mm, so let’s break that down. This means you’re going to have a darker picture than most other LPVO’s, but where it really hurts is eye box. Pull a 9mm barrel out of a pistol and move it around while trying to look through it. This has less forgiveness than that. When you add in eye relief it constricts it even further. In addition the 28mm objective divided by the 8.8mm exit pupil tells us the native magnification is about 3.2X. Meaning it uses a reduction lens for magnification below 3.2X, and a magnification lens above 3.2X. The further away it is from 1X, the more likely you are to experience fish eye as the capability of the reduction lens is pushed to its limit. What does all this amount to? You’re going to get an optic with a compromised low end magnification. It’s going to be darker than about anything else, and it’s going to have a very sensitive eye box at the magnification levels you need forgiveness. Looking at the price point, even more compromise has to be made to even make a 1-10, and that compromise was likely in glass quality. I’d pass. If you need 1X and 10X, you should buy a MPVO and an offset red dot. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1X exit pupil and you. Exit pupil is the viewing width in which the optic can transmit light. This equates to two things: Light gathering, and eye box. This model is listed as 8.8mm, so let’s break that down. This means you’re going to have a darker picture than most other LPVO’s, but where it really hurts is eye box. Pull a 9mm barrel out of a pistol and move it around while trying to look through it. This has less forgiveness than that. When you add in eye relief it constricts it even further. In addition the 28mm objective divided by the 8.8mm exit pupil tells us the native magnification is about 3.2X. Meaning it uses a reduction lens for magnification below 3.2X, and a magnification lens above 3.2X. The further away it is from 1X, the more likely you are to experience fish eye as the capability of the reduction lens is pushed to its limit. What does all this amount to? You’re going to get an optic with a compromised low end magnification. It’s going to be darker than about anything else, and it’s going to have a very sensitive eye box at the magnification levels you need forgiveness. Looking at the price point, even more compromise has to be made to even make a 1-10, and that compromise was likely in glass quality. I’d pass. If you need 1X and 10X, you should buy a MPVO and an offset red dot. @-OdieGreen- Factual knowledge shared in a very understandable post. Unique these days. I respect that. Thank You. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 12:24:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @-OdieGreen- Factual knowledge shared in a very understandable post. Unique these days. I respect that. Thank You. No sweat. Most people think 1-X LPVO’s are 1X that gets magnified so people overlook low end exit pupil. In reality most are 2-3X that gets reduced to 1X, so the objective divided by magnification formula doesn’t work the same as it does for higher magnification optics. (When you see a 1.25-1.5X LPVO they typically don’t use reduction and are true native magnification.) And I will say outright that I can’t say this optic is bad as I’ve never had my hands on one. The physics of optics are impossible to escape but sometimes there are tweaks you can do that can make them anomalies. Additionally if you plan to use it as a DMR role or such, that 1X eye box might be worth the trade off for your use. |
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Posted: 6/15/2024 3:34:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @-OdieGreen- Factual knowledge shared in a very understandable post. Unique these days. I respect that. Thank You. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1X exit pupil and you. Exit pupil is the viewing width in which the optic can transmit light. This equates to two things: Light gathering, and eye box. This model is listed as 8.8mm, so let’s break that down. This means you’re going to have a darker picture than most other LPVO’s, but where it really hurts is eye box. Pull a 9mm barrel out of a pistol and move it around while trying to look through it. This has less forgiveness than that. When you add in eye relief it constricts it even further. In addition the 28mm objective divided by the 8.8mm exit pupil tells us the native magnification is about 3.2X. Meaning it uses a reduction lens for magnification below 3.2X, and a magnification lens above 3.2X. The further away it is from 1X, the more likely you are to experience fish eye as the capability of the reduction lens is pushed to its limit. What does all this amount to? You’re going to get an optic with a compromised low end magnification. It’s going to be darker than about anything else, and it’s going to have a very sensitive eye box at the magnification levels you need forgiveness. Looking at the price point, even more compromise has to be made to even make a 1-10, and that compromise was likely in glass quality. I’d pass. If you need 1X and 10X, you should buy a MPVO and an offset red dot. @-OdieGreen- Factual knowledge shared in a very understandable post. Unique these days. I respect that. Thank You. Agreed |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 2:15:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As far as where it’s made I don’t know. CHINA |
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Posted: 6/17/2024 6:13:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think this is the next evolution in AR optics. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0529_jpeg-3240865.JPG Yet more Chinesium. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 11:57:25 AM EDT
[#24]
I think it is easy for a lot of people to forget these are affordable optics for working class people. They aren’t intended to convert a wealthy person from Nightforce to something else. They are for people who like to have a few guns and put optics and cans on them without experiencing financial hardships.
We asked Nightforce if they had an optics bundling program- they responded with hostility, suggesting our inclusion of our American made mount for free with their optic at MAP, would be a MAP violation. They have no interest in helping customers afford their optics even if it is subsidized by the reseller. They obviously viewed that as illegal activity- too competitive of a sales practice- it offered an illegal level of value to the consumer. I like the concept of the NX8, but I proposed that idea because I could not see it selling in volume at its price. The new 2-10 leupold mk 5 is 23 ounces and $2100. It has 2mm more objective lens diameter. FFP really doesn’t render a reticle to be highly useable until about 3-6x depending on reticle design so thats one of the obvious drawbacks of FFP in an LPVO. The FFP also wouldn’t allow our optical ranging feature to work. The optics of the 1-10x28 are pretty impressive and clear- partially facilitated by the SFP design and partially the 34mm tube and 28mm objective lens. A lot of heavier optics have better optical performance. S&B’s 1-8 is 22.25 ounces- S&B’s are typically heavier. I would agree that it is 6-7 ounces heavier than light 10 power optics with smaller 30mm tubes, but for a reasonable price, the weight may not be as big of a factor for people. I see the optic as a good option for bolt rifles and .308 gas guns. It looks good on AR’s as well. Another comparison is an MST-100- obsolete but something like 33 ounces, and possessing similar zero stops and magnification- this optic could be used in a similar role without an issue, making it extremely affordable for possessing functions like that, and adding illumination of the reticle and ability to reduce power down to one power if desired. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 12:09:49 PM EDT
[#25]
I will say that I'm glad someone finally put in .1 mil adjustments in a budget 1-10 when almost everyone else are going with 1/2 moa and .2 adjustments.
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Posted: 6/19/2024 12:12:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will say that I'm glad someone finally put in .1 mil adjustments in a budget 1-10 when almost everyone else are going with 1/2 moa and .2 adjustments. Smaller knobs only allow tactile clicks at a more coarse value, so part of the weight here is the huge knobs that help allow the .1mil clicks to be tactile. The zero stops and push pull locking features also add weight. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 3:00:17 PM EDT
[#27]
10x on the top end in SFP kind of sucks and that’s coming from someone who shoots a 1-8 SFP as a primary
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Posted: 6/19/2024 3:49:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 10x on the top end in SFP kind of sucks and that’s coming from someone who shoots a 1-8 SFP as a primary I think the 10X top end is fine personally. In the Army the sniper rifles when I was in had either 10X40 or 3.5-10x40 optics and we shot to 800 meters often with them successfully, sometimes out to 1000 meters. Those had resolution about the same as this optic. If you can hit a 100meter target with irons, that's what 10x at a 1000 looks like. In 04-05 the New York 2-108? guard Designated marksmen I replaced in Samarra had some documented 800meter kills from the Samarra offensive in November 04 with M14's and 3 or 4 power ACOGs, showing that 800meters can be done with 4X. I will admit that I sort of thought it would have been cool to pull a 4.5-14x50 off a XM107 and put it on an M24, but I never did that, and today 14.5" 6.5's and 16" .308's are common and have a shorter range emphasis than the M24 at more like 650meters or closer, and that's territory where 10X is totally fine. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 3:56:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the 10X top end is fine personally. In the Army the sniper rifles when I was in had either 10X40 or 3.5-10x40 optics and we shot to 800 meters often with them successfully, sometimes out to 1000 meters. Those had resolution about the same as this optic. In 04-05 the New York 2-108? guard Designated marksmen I replaced in Samarra had some documented 800meter kills from the Samarra offensive in November 04 with M14's and 3 or 4 power ACOGs, showing that 800meters can be done with 4X. I will admit that I sort of thought it would have been cool to pull a 4.5-14x50 off a XM107 and put it on an M24, but I never did that, and today 14.5" 6.5's and 16" .308's are common and have a shorter range emphasis than the M24 at more like 650meters or closer, and that's territory where 10X is totally fine. Do you like having 10x for a 400 yd target though? If it’s SFP, your hashes/drops are only accurate at 10x. I’d rather dial down to only 6x so I don’t lose so much FOV. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 4:08:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you like having 10x for a 400 yd target though? If it’s SFP, your hashes/drops are only accurate at 10x. I’d rather dial down to only 6x so I don’t lose so much FOV. I know I will be on 10x when taking a 400+ yard shot, but I would never own an LPVO with 10x on top. |
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Posted: 6/19/2024 4:10:52 PM EDT
[#31]
@PacNW5 There is a feature in this optic that harkens back to Vietnam (Redfield ART TEL) and the shooter can bracket some known size objects at 4X to range 400 meters, 5X for 500meters etc, however this optic would be more of a dial elevation deal unless you then zoomed to 10 afterward to use the mils for holds. Or I suppose you could zoom to 5X and each half mil will represent one mil, because the image is 1/2 size- that could be a theoretical way to use the mil scale at a lesser power than 10. Example at 5X if you need 2.5 mils, hold 1.25 on the scale.
We have a 1-8 with what we call an ICO (Ideal Carbine Optic) reticle that allows bracket and shoot at magnification ~3-8X where more like an ACOG where you range and shoot in the same place with an FFP optic. The 1-10 might have potential to be more popular as it supports a plethora of calibers using good old fashioned JBM ballistics dope laminated to the stock and either held in mils or adjusted on the dials. A page from the PDF manual demonstrating a non-mil based ranging method that is supported aside from mil relation formula at 10X.  Optical calibration involves focusing the ocular lens at a place where 10 mils subtends 39.37" (like a meter stick) at 100 meters distance. It is known that ocular lens focus to a limited extent, effects the appearance of the size of objects in riflescopes, and thus the relationship of the mil-scale to the image/objects in image. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 12:18:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @PacNW5 There is a feature in this optic that harkens back to Vietnam (Redfield ART TEL) and the shooter can bracket some known size objects at 4X to range 400 meters, 5X for 500meters etc, however this optic would be more of a dial elevation deal unless you then zoomed to 10 afterward to use the mils for holds. Or I suppose you could zoom to 5X and each half mil will represent one mil, because the image is 1/2 size- that could be a theoretical way to use the mil scale at a lesser power than 10. Example at 5X if you need 2.5 mils, hold 1.25 on the scale. Zooming to 5X would be an interesting idea to test. It seems like you'd have to be dead on with your magnification lever though in order to be precisely 1/2 size. That seems hard to do in practice. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 1:07:19 PM EDT
[#33]
It is $382
That is your biggest clue. I hate to be the one that explains there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. But, you are going to get a pure crap 1-10x scope for this price. Consider it a test. "You can't cheat an honest man." Because an honest man knows you don't get something for nothing. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 7:49:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zooming to 5X would be an interesting idea to test. It seems like you'd have to be dead on with your magnification lever though in order to be precisely 1/2 size. That seems hard to do in practice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Zooming to 5X would be an interesting idea to test. It seems like you'd have to be dead on with your magnification lever though in order to be precisely 1/2 size. That seems hard to do in practice. Your premise was shooting 400 yds, so if you are shooting 5.56mm that's like ~2 mils of drop with 62 grain from a 16" barrel, and then your saying like being at 5.25 power if you aren't good at looking at the dial, and putting your one mil hold for 2 real mils at half scale image to full scale SFP reticle would be getting you 1.9 mils and your shot would be 0.8" low at 400 yds because you were slightly out of scale. I don't think it's going to matter really because no normal AR is going to shoot a 1 inch group with 62 grain ammo at 400 yds to begin with. Quoted: But, you are going to get a pure crap 1-10x scope for this price. Ultimately you have to handle and use an optic to have an opinion that has real correlation to the item. Where a price is set, can be related to where the company wanted to set it also. Like I hear stories about luxottica and how maybe Oakleys cost less than $10 to make and get sold for ~$170. But maybe if they priced them at $34 you might have a negative opinion of them if you had never handled a pair of the sunglasses. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 8:58:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve been conversing with them about the scope for almost a week in the industry forum. I’ve never owned a 34mm tube or a second focal plan optic. Today my decision was made somewhat easier. Griffin is running a weekend Father’s Day sale of 15% sightwide. Coupon code is DAD24. I thought it lucrative enough I was planning on posting in TEAM. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0519_jpeg-3240599.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0518_jpeg-3240601.JPG As far as where it’s made I don’t know. I do have several years experience with their mounts and silencers. If you follow the industry forum it’s very apparent that the owner (former sniper) wouldn’t just relabel something for a buck. It also has some great feedback from long range shooters. Griffin backs all their products and I don’t see them going away anytime soon. Sub $400 1-10? That’s a rebranded Chinese OEM clone. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 8:59:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Razor comes in at 21.5 oz I understand the red dots are the answer to the shooting most do with an AR, but if your ‘scoping’ an AR for distance duty what 10x compares? I’m here for learning and always appreciate alternatives. edit- An etched reticle is also important to me. edit- Scoping AR was bad analogy because it’s going on an M1a. sorry for the confusion but it did berth a good discussion. Razor isn’t Chinese. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 9:44:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Razor isn’t Chinese. https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope+reticle-EBR-9~MOA Is this $3999 optic what you are talking about? Is it relevant to compare a $3999 MSRP optic to one that is $450 as if spending 9 times as much money should be considered a blessing to the customer? Last I looked you could get a Leupold MK5 machined and assembled in the USA for $2100 with illumination in a 2-10. Maybe that is Japanese glass in the MK5- I guess they aren't claiming manufacture of the glass. I'm busy comparing a South Korean DN Solutions CNC machine to a Japanese Mazak machine this week, of a similar axis combo and size, and the price difference is 32% additional cost $245K to $323K on the base machine before high pressure coolant, and bar feeder, and I'm having a hard time seeing the Japanese machine as a great idea. The concept of putting that much value in the Japanese design is amazing to me, and I think they do great stuff. In the case of the machine it weighs 30% more and that's considered a good idea because the machine is more rigid, but 10,000 more lbs at $3.60 a pound stainless American mill prices is $36,000 of material- mostly in a couple large castings (which is liberal as the machine is made of cheaper iron), so it doesn't actually close the entire gap and leaves 42K in the cost of being Japanese camp. There are other hidden costs- the DN solutions requires no additional employee training whereas the Mazatrol control would be a new control in the shop so everyone would have to learn the new control. The sales guy told me in 6 local counties he has sold one of those mazaks in 4 years, whereas I bought 3 DN solutions machines of that comparable model alone on my floor alone in the last 4 years. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 9:57:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10x24-riflescope+reticle-EBR-9~MOA Is this $3999 optic what you are talking about? Is it relevant to compare a $3999 MSRP optic to one that is $450 as if spending 9 times as much money should be considered a blessing to the customer? Do they give you your name on a wall tile at the Vortex headquarters for buying that or what is the intangible value to ego? Last I looked you could get a Leupold MK5 made in USA for $2100 with illumination in a 2-10. I can see some pride in that. I'm busy comparing a South Korean DN Solutions CNC machine to a Japanese Mazak machine this week, of a similar axis combo and size, and the price difference is 32% additional cost $245K to $323K on the base machine before high pressure coolant, and bar feeder, and I'm having a hard time seeing the Japanese machine as a great idea. The concept of putting that much value in the Japanese is amazing to me, and I think they do great stuff. In the case of the machine it weighs 30% more and that's considered a good idea because the machine is more rigid, but 10,000 more lbs at $3.60 stainless prices is $36,000 of material, so it doesn't actually close the entire gap and leaves 42K in the cost of being Japanese camp. There are other hidden costs- the DN solutions requires no additional employee training whereas the Mazatrol control would be a new control in the shop so everyone would have to learn the new control. I would rather have 6X LOW glass on the top end than 10X Chinese glass, any day of the week. I’m not really going to take the bait on the whole “name on the wall” thing, but the Razor is a standard in the class for a reason. Personally, it’s worth it to me with my needs to generally pay more for the incremental performance increases in a Kahles K16i, but I still have a couple of Razors on beater guns. Hard pass on the 1-10 because the optical qualities suck and there are a couple of very high quality1-8’s which surpass it in every meaningful way. You can certainly make an argument as to why there’s a market segment for it, because there is. But we both know performance isn’t the reason. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:01:36 PM EDT
[#39]
You have never held the product. You assume you know something about it when you don't. It's really not a good position to hold.
I understand I may be undervaluing the Mazak. One of the issues in valuing something you don't have, is you haven't experienced it. So maybe the Mazak kills it, and makes the owner more money. I can be wrong. I have a Razor HD but it might be a Gen 2. We got it in a co-marketing exchange that as far as I know Vortex never honored as we did marketing for them and I'm told they never marketed for us. I thought it was a nice optic, but I don't think it is better than this optic for $450. I have owned Mazaks, but not turning machines. I think they make pretty nice machines. We have one of their horizontal pallet changer mills on order because in horizontals their reputation is that of being the best as far as I know. I think their reputation in turning is also really solid. I just have never had a Mazak turning machine and part of the Japanese pride is that they will never help you into the first machine to get an idea of what they are capable of. They have way too much pride to give you a deal. |
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:04:57 PM EDT
[#40]
The concept of putting that much value in the Japanese is amazing to me, and I think they do great stuff. It is all political posturing. Peeps like to hate on China. It was Japan that stabbed us in the back in 1941. Most folks can do fine with $300 glass. Where there's going to be issues is with the eyebox, weight and light gathering ability. This is why I stop LPVO's @ 6x on top. If you need more than 6x to hit a target, you can probably get by without 1x on the low end, and have a lighter and brighter optic with a generous eyebox for similar money. Piggyback an mrds and dump illumination and save even more weight. I bet most members on here just drive to the range and set their guns on a bench so don't give 2 shits about weight. Shoot only on sunny days and no worries about low light ability. It's all about priorities, or lack thereof 
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Posted: 6/20/2024 10:07:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is all political posturing. Peeps like to hate on China. It was Japan that stabbed us in the back in 1941. Most folks can do fine with $300 glass. Where there's going to be issues is with the eyebox, weight and light gathering ability. This is why I stop LPVO's @ 6x on top. If you need more than 6x to hit a target, you can probably get by without 1x on the low end, and have a lighter and brighter optic with a generous eyebox for similar money. Piggyback an mrds and dump illumination and save even more weight. I bet most members on here just drive to the range and set their guns on a bench so don't give 2 shits about weight. Shoot only on sunny days and no worries about low light ability. It's all about priorities, or lack thereof I'd give you a 50% off coupon to take a look at one, if you promise to tell people here what you think of the product. At least you have an open mind for it. Not suggesting you need an optic. You may not. The Japanese put my Grandfather in a prison camp for 3.5 years on Bataan. I don't think about that in business, but your point is salient. If they had starved him completely to death I wouldn't exist. He lost 130lbs down to 120 at 6'2" in the camp. |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 12:25:12 AM EDT
[#42]
I have no interest in a 1-10 (from anybody). You guys have always given me solid products and great customer service. I hope he takes you up on it. I can understand people's hesitancy. A 1-10 at that price point is pretty questionable, but I hope you prove them wrong.
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Posted: 6/21/2024 8:25:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no interest in a 1-10 (from anybody). You guys have always given me solid products and great customer service. I hope he takes you up on it. I can understand people's hesitancy. A 1-10 at that price point is pretty questionable, but I hope you prove them wrong. The funny thing is I could have priced it at $600 or $800. This is the volume sale price. We priced it low because we want to move more units, not because the optic is low quality. If the scope was crap, Zach at Mountains Mullets Merica wouldn't have been shooting it our to nearly 800 meters successfully on a chrome lined, 16" .308 gun that was only holding about 1.75MOA. Zach wouldn't run it if it was crap, and I wouldn't sell it if it wasn't high quality. |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 11:54:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Appreciate the well thought out advice. It’s all in the details. It will replacing my Vortex Viper 2 x 10 on an M1a in EBR chassis. Not a clone but it’s a ton of fun. From the bench! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0522_jpeg-3240824.JPG (My fault, no way you could have deduced that lol.) Again, I appreciate the perspective. I have that scope and don't think that you'd be gaining anything with the griffin one. |
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Posted: 6/21/2024 11:55:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Other than the fact that they forgot to consider a piggyback mrds location. They could have extended the shroud in front for ARD and a platform for a reflex, but they went all in on the compact aspect. Another near-miss by PA Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think this is the next evolution in AR optics. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/467962/IMG_0529_jpeg-3240865.JPG Other than the fact that they forgot to consider a piggyback mrds location. They could have extended the shroud in front for ARD and a platform for a reflex, but they went all in on the compact aspect. Another near-miss by PA You don't need a mrds on the 3x. The 5x sure, maybe. |
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Posted: 6/22/2024 1:20:55 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't need a mrds on the 3x. The 5x sure, maybe. Perhaps, but in my case use the mrds is the primary with the prism mounted as close to the rail as as possible, regardless of X's. The prism is for PID and the occasional long poke. |
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Posted: 6/29/2024 3:58:10 PM EDT
[#47]
@Green0
Any specials coming up for the 4th of July? I need a SOB buffer and the 1-10 scope |
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Posted: 6/29/2024 6:03:48 PM EDT
[#48]
It's pretty amazing that anyone was able to make a 1-10x scope in the first place. It seems they made a lot of people realize 6x is about as high as you want to go on a scope that has 1x on the low end.
Maybe next people will start to re-examine the costs and benefits of giant main tubes on scopes that don't need to dial big elevations. Replacing a Viper 2-10x on an M1A, particularly one in that chassis, with this scope makes about as much sense as a football bat, IMO. It might be an awesome scope for $382. I have no idea. But under these circumstances, that seems to me like a waste of $382. Which is kind of the problem with cheap optics in the first place. A lot of them turn out to just increase the overall price of good optics. |
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Posted: 6/30/2024 1:13:03 PM EDT
[#49]
I'd love to see one of these in person. I've run GA products for years and generally like everything I've purchased. Very curious how these do.
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Posted: 7/1/2024 7:21:27 PM EDT
[#50]
@bmarshall1 JULY4 is a coupon code good for 17.76% off optics this week, 30% off parts and accessories, and 35% off apparel.
Quoted: I'd love to see one of these in person. I've run GA products for years and generally like everything I've purchased. Very curious how these do. Thanks for that- we try really hard to ensure the products are good performing products so that the end users have the interaction you're mentioning. |
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