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Imagine this: Say Hitler wasn't obsessed with murdering Jews and bombing Great Britain. Even better, say his obsessive hated was for Muslims. Now say the Japanese had come to us diplomatically to state their intent to expand their sphere of influence in Asia. U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan are not hostile to each other. Communism is wiped the fuck out before it even take hold in USSR and China. Same possibly goes for Islam. How many of us would have the proverbial Coke? View Quote |
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One thing that doomed the Japanese at Guadalcanal and elsewhere was the lousy cooperation and communication between their navy and army. They could never get on the same page. View Quote |
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Here's a good one. (Not clickbait like most)
Midway: Why did the Japanese Lose? |
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Imagine this: Say Hitler wasn't obsessed with murdering Jews and bombing Great Britain. Even better, say his obsessive hated was for Muslims. Now say the Japanese had come to us diplomatically to state their intent to expand their sphere of influence in Asia. U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan are not hostile to each other. Communism is wiped the fuck out before it even take hold in USSR and China. Same possibly goes for Islam. How many of us would have the proverbial Coke? View Quote So its likely in your example that we still end up fighting Germany as soon as they turn on Russia. |
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There is a good argument to be had that the US' full mobilization during the war was due to the left at home realizing communism was in danger. So its likely in your example that we still end up fighting Germany as soon as they turn on Russia. View Quote |
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They intended to neutralize our ability to keep them from taking China and the Western Pacific. No real delusion to take the U.S., although they would have gone for Australia. They wanted to hurt us and then negotiate us into not interfering. It was doable. Not probable but doable. Adm. Yamamoto was never under the delusion they could defeat us. He tried to tell them. I read his biography a number of years ago. As an ensign, he had served with the Japanese embassy in the U.S. He hitchhiked around our country. He admired American will and had an appreciation for our industrial might. It troubled him greatly that his own countrymen grossly underestimated the strength of America. But he was loyal to his country and did his duty. Summary: Fanatical Japanese leadership hoped to take Asia and thought they could inflict enough to get America to back off. It failed. The end. View Quote Good read. |
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Essentially, hit the American Navy strong enough that we don't want to fight them, take the Philippines, etc to secure raw resources, then tell America to be quiet and color. There's no plan to invade mainland USA. View Quote However I would encourage everyone to learn more about the causes and development of the Pacific war. So maybe the OP nudges people in that direction. I hope. Battleships, folks, not carriers. |
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Actually, biggest part of plan was to lure remaining American fleet into a 'decisive battle' where they were confident they would win. Which is unlikely with how poorly they performed almost all the time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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they needed to catch the carriers in port. they failed. Which is unlikely with how poorly they performed almost all the time. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. |
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Their surface fleet was actually quite effective. They were caught with there pants down at Midway, but that involved a huge amount of luck on our part. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. View Quote |
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The American left quite clearly favored the Soviets, the idea that they were ambivalent because both Germany and the USSR were “socialist” is silly.
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The American left quite clearly favored the Soviets, the idea that they were ambivalent because both Germany and the USSR were “socialist” is silly. View Quote IIRC, the US public thought what the Nazi's were doing was quite impressive and inspiring, before 1939 at least. Also, Mussolini was a socialist, so that fits, even if the USSR and NatlSocGer didn't along. |
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No. 3 planes can’t make a decent strike, esp 3 slow, unmanuverable float planes. It would take 20 of those subs to equal one carrier. Plus you need escorts because holy shit were those subs going to be vulnerable during launch and recovery. Japan never had a chance. We could replace losses, Japan could not. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I am no expert. I have always been fascinated with the Jap I class sub It held 3 aircraft. And could launch and recover them I think they scheduled to build quite a few Think those could have made a difference. They did have worldwide reach also 3 planes can’t make a decent strike, esp 3 slow, unmanuverable float planes. It would take 20 of those subs to equal one carrier. Plus you need escorts because holy shit were those subs going to be vulnerable during launch and recovery. Japan never had a chance. We could replace losses, Japan could not. |
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They are still fighting WW2 by hijacking our industries, and there are plenty of people right here on Arfcom who are happy to help them win.
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The only time in my life El Paso looked like a good idea
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And a P38 shot the shit out of the planner of Pearl Harbor, perfect ending.
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There surface fleet didn't do so well when later tested. They had some limited success and we suffered some chaotic night time embaressments early on... but those ended up being rare cases and soon couldn't keep up in quality or quantity, plus an embaressing end. Turns out it was easy to throw the Japanese navy into disarray in broad daylight with some destroyers. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There surface fleet was actually quite effective. They were caught with there pants down at Midway, but that involved a huge amount of luck on our part. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. Reality is a bit different, as 'shit happens' and 'no plan survives first contact with the enemy' get tossed into the mix. |
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They should have used the Kangaroo as their symbol rather than the "Rising Sun"
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Lots of people are unaware that the Japanese were establishing bases in the Aleutian Islands and we fought battles there. The shortest great circle distance to DC was through largely uninhabited Canada. Had they gained a foothold we would've had a front in Alaska and an enemy making their way to DC from the North. View Quote |
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There surface fleet was actually quite effective. They were caught with there pants down at Midway, but that involved a huge amount of luck on our part. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. A Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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they needed to catch the carriers in port. they failed. Which is unlikely with how poorly they performed almost all the time. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. A Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. |
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There surface fleet was actually quite effective. They were caught with there pants down at Midway, but that involved a huge amount of luck on our part. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn't be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By '44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. View Quote |
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Essentially, hit the American Navy strong enough that we don't want to fight them, take the Philippines, etc to secure raw resources, then tell America to be quiet and color. There's no plan to invade mainland USA. View Quote Since the diplomats and president they had recently dealt with were shifty shits devoid of honor, and honor being paramount in Japanese culture. they figured we as a culture (or at least our politicians) also lacked the remaining attributes of what makes men men, and would just fold out of cowardice after we had been bloodied well enough. What they didn't understand was democratic process, and, that our politicians at that time still answered to men of better character to maintain their position and status in government We responded beyond their means to anticipate or comprehend in any risk calculations they may have made beforehand |
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Breaking their code, and having radar on our ships, was a big part of that 'luck'. View Quote It wasn't that they performed poorly, its just that they were so behind the curve that they had no chance and constantly operated at a significant disadvantage after Midway, or even the Solomon campaign, in tech, in quantity, in quality, and in tactics. On the few rare occasions that forces were evenly matched, I'd say they performed well. Problem was once they bled off all their experienced CV pilots and a large portion of their fleet carriers there was nothing for all those other ships to do. Their fleets shrunk while ours grew ever larger and as evidenced by events in 1944, it was pointless from a naval aspect to even attempt to leave port. Even their "unsinkable carriers" were neutralized by airpower, lack of supply, or simply by being bypassed and ignored. Now, they came close to really pulling off an upset in the Philippines and it's only by pure luck that we didn't see our transports taken out had their fleet gone all YOLO (which, to be fair the Japanese had no problems with). Wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war, but still a rather embarrassing defeat |
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Quoted: Actually, biggest part of plan was to lure remaining American fleet into a 'decisive battle' where they were confident they would win. Which is unlikely with how poorly they performed almost all the time. View Quote War Plan Orange was common knowledge, and the Japanese plan was basically to counter War Plan Orange, and when War Plane Orange was defeated, negotiate a settlement. Unfortunately for them, their opening strike at Pearl Harbor rendered War Plan Orange impossible, so the U.S. did something very different - hit and run raids while they built up strength. Those raids played against a weakness the Japanese had - they were over-extended and under-manned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Orange Significant parts of War Plan Orange did take place, but the Mahanian "decisive engagement" never took place - rather a series of decisive battles replaced it. Midway, Coral Sea, the over-all Philippine naval battles, etc. Advancements in air power and submarine technology led to a greater reliance on cutting lines of communication with submarine action, and aerial interdiction and minefield emplacement. |
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Paul S. Dull's Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy explains it. The Japanese strategy was based on 1905 Russo-Japanese War. The enemy sails to Japan, is weakened along the way (Japanese submarines hunt down capitol ships and dwindles their number) and then deliver stunning defeat once they reach Japan. Worked in 1905.
It was hope that by destroying the carriers at Pearl Harbor, Japan would have the advantage in airpower. So when the Pacific fleet's battleships sails to Japan, they would be further decimated by the Japanese aircraft or subs and then the remnants would be destroyed by the superior (now in number) Japanese battleships. An honorable peace could then be negotiated in Japan's favor. The trouble is Japan doesn't destroy the American carriers at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese didn't consider anti-submarine warfare honorable and didn't want any effort spent on convoying or protecting merchant ships. They didn't anticipate Nimitz unleashing our subs with unrestricted warfare. They weren't aware of our War Plan Orange where we would build a support fleet for the battle fleet. That would take two years. The Pacific Fleet would then bypass many Japanese defenses and creep up the islands toward Japan, establishing bases along the way and starving the isolated Japanese garrisons slowly. |
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Lots of people are unaware that the Japanese were establishing bases in the Aleutian Islands and we fought battles there. The shortest great circle distance to DC was through largely uninhabited Canada. Had they gained a foothold we would’ve had a front in Alaska and an enemy making their way to DC from the North. View Quote We knew from War Plan Orange that Japan could not invade the West Coast. They could shell it, but to sustain a navy and an army landing force required a huge merchant marine force to ferry supplies across the Pacific to the West Coast. Japan didn't have a merchant marine capable of doing that. |
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as I've said before, I had 2 Uncles and my Dad's Uncle all serve on destroyers during WWll.
They absolutely hated the Japanese to the day they died. |
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What were they thinking? After they hit Pearl Harbor, had they won the next few battles by sinking our carrier fleet, what was their plan? Invade North America? Did they think we would sue for peace, after taking a few losses? Did they even have a plan to finish what they started? View Quote |
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There surface fleet was actually quite effective. They were caught with there pants down at Midway, but that involved a huge amount of luck on our part. We were in position to take advantage of that luck because of great intel and the miracle at Pearl Harbor to turn around a carrier in 24 hours. Still, we could have lost Midway very easily. The timing of our strikes was not planned, it was a clusterfuck of a strike that had no business succeeding honestly. Even if they had won at Midway though, they were done. Once we fixed our torpedoes, our subs sank almost the entire Japanese merchant fleet in short order. No merchant fleet = no logistics. No fuel for their ships, no spare parts, no food, no medicine, ect. The Japanese Navy was constrained by a chronic fuel shortage even before Pearl Harbor. With their logistics almost nonexistent, they could not take advantage of good fortune because they simply couldn’t be there to take advantage of the situation. You add to the fact that by mid 1943, our ship building had put even the chance of a decisive battle out of reach for them. By ‘44 they would have had to win something like 6 descisive victories in a row to just be able to fight on equal terms. Japan had no chance because of logistics and industrial capacity. View Quote |
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Quoted: Definitely part of it. It wasn't that they performed poorly, its just that they were so behind the curve that they had no chance and constantly operated at a significant disadvantage after Midway, or even the Solomon campaign, in tech, in quantity, in quality, and in tactics. On the few rare occasions that forces were evenly matched, I'd say they performed well. Problem was once they bled off all their experienced CV pilots and a large portion of their fleet carriers there was nothing for all those other ships to do. Their fleets shrunk while ours grew ever larger and as evidenced by events in 1944, it was pointless from a naval aspect to even attempt to leave port. Even their "unsinkable carriers" were neutralized by airpower, lack of supply, or simply by being bypassed and ignored. Now, they came close to really pulling off an upset in the Philippines and it's only by pure luck that we didn't see our transports taken out had their fleet gone all YOLO (which, to be fair the Japanese had no problems with). Wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war, but still a rather embarrassing defeat View Quote Japan planned for a short war, and thus had no pipeline in place to "build" trained naval aviators, and no program to pull veterans off of the front lines to pass their hard-won lessons to the next generation of pilots. Same problem with aircraft mechanics and other non-pilot support personnel. |
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“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success”-Yamato.
He was right |
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Paul S. Dull's Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy explains it. The Japanese strategy was based on 1905 Russo-Japanese War. The enemy sails to Japan, is weakened along the way (Japanese submarines hunt down capitol ships and dwindles their number) and then deliver stunning defeat once they reach Japan. Worked in 1905. It was hope that by destroying the carriers at Pearl Harbor, Japan would have the advantage in airpower. So when the Pacific fleet's battleships sails to Japan, they would be further decimated by the Japanese aircraft or subs and then the remnants would be destroyed by the superior (now in number) Japanese battleships. An honorable peace could then be negotiated in Japan's favor. The trouble is Japan doesn't destroy the American carriers at Pearl Harbor. The Japanese didn't consider anti-submarine warfare honorable and didn't want any effort spent on convoying or protecting merchant ships. They didn't anticipate Nimitz unleashing our subs with unrestricted warfare. They weren't aware of our War Plan Orange where we would build a support fleet for the battle fleet. That would take two years. The Pacific Fleet would then bypass many Japanese defenses and creep up the islands toward Japan, establishing bases along the way and starving the isolated Japanese garrisons slowly. View Quote Many things the US did back then weren't planned, and even plans made after Pearl Harbor were changed as needed. Again IIRC, Plan Orange was really simple, and easy enough to guess. Also, very fitting for the times, with a large decisive battle with battleships, cruisers, etc; and rescuing the Philippines garrison. Something like that. I never focused much on it, same with Olympic, as they never happened. Biggest problem with the Japanese, they were just foolish imitators. Imitating the European empires of the world got them some success, but they were extremely prone to underestimating the US due to what most historians love to wrongly call 'racism.' By todays measure, the Japanese were the biggest racists around. The reason the US was surprised was most of our intel was from when they really were terribly equipped, which momentum kept alive through a period of a lack of intel. There was some though, so who knows how 'surprised' those at the top really were... other than that though, we had the Japanese down... Either way... Japan had no chance. They were relying on the US rolling over, as they didn't understand Americans at all. |
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“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success”-Yamato. He was right View Quote Too bad those guys didn't know ahead of time what being a POW of the Japanese would mean... |
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The only problem with that line of thinking, no serious leader should consider any of their early war mop-ups as 'victories.' Taking some small outposts an ocean away from their country. The loss of the Philippines was nearly a certainty, so it's unfortunate that they were kept there in the first place. Especially true of all the small islands, like Wake. Too bad those guys didn't know ahead of time what being a POW of the Japanese would mean... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success”-Yamato. He was right Too bad those guys didn't know ahead of time what being a POW of the Japanese would mean... |
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Yorktown's strike was very well coordinated and executed. At Coral Sea as well. TF16 was a complete joke. In reality, that's Halsey's fault. View Quote |
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Imagine this: Say Hitler wasn't obsessed with murdering Jews and bombing Great Britain. Even better, say his obsessive hated was for Muslims. Now say the Japanese had come to us diplomatically to state their intent to expand their sphere of influence in Asia. U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan are not hostile to each other. Communism is wiped the fuck out before it even take hold in USSR and China. Same possibly goes for Islam. How many of us would have the proverbial Coke? View Quote |
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I'm convinced to the day I die the absence of carriers at Pearl turned the Pacific war. Imagine all the fleet carries sunk beyond recovery. There's no Doolittle raid. Until we build more Japan has total air superiority. That means vastly superior reconnaissance. They know where we are but we can't find them. Naval gunnery was of very minimal effectiveness, which I know some people here deny, ignoring the story of Taffy 3. The proximity fuse wasn't in mass production until the end of 1942. AA fire at sea is very ineffective without that, we're not splashing meaningful numbers of Japanese planes. Imagine the US sailing a surface fleet with no carriers to the Coral Sea and losing most if not all of them without ever even seeing the enemy. Midway never happens and Japan retains all its fleet carries and the majority of its aircraft and aircrew. Japan sinks nearly the entire US Pacific fleet then asks for peace terms. All they want is a lifting of sanctions and for the US to stay out of the Asian Pacific waters. There'll be no more attacks on US forces, no invasion of the US, no loss of sovereign territory, Japanese forces won't cross a specified latitude line for any reason.. Those are very attractive terms for an isolationist US, that wants to focus on Europe anyway. I suppose we knuckle down and say we're taking you on no matter what, but it'll take a long time to rebuild the fleet to a point we overwhelm Japan. There's a decent chance we focus on battleships instead of carriers since we've never seen them in action on our side and big gun navy was still considered king. Remember that we lost nearly every experienced seaman and officer at Coral Sea in this scenario.
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You need to crack open a history book sometime. Terrible thing is I read the above answers/actual facts with my 9th grade daughter as she learned this stuff that's over your head View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Imagine this: Say Hitler wasn't obsessed with murdering Jews and bombing Great Britain. Even better, say his obsessive hated was for Muslims. Now say the Japanese had come to us diplomatically to state their intent to expand their sphere of influence in Asia. U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan are not hostile to each other. Communism is wiped the fuck out before it even take hold in USSR and China. Same possibly goes for Islam. How many of us would have the proverbial Coke? it's amazing how absolutely wrong some people are in their beliefs about history of the 1st half of 20th century |
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Japan was absolutely dwarfed by the USA in terms of resources and GDP right from the get go. They were completely retarded to pick that fight. View Quote Their conclusion was that the Japanese were fucked before they started attacking Pearl Harbor. Since the HI attack had zero impact on our economic power, it was only a matter of time before our economic engine went to full throttle, at which point there was NO hope Japan could keep up. |
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If pearl harbor did not work out their back up plan was to get US with tapedecks
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IIRC, that sounds more like mixing a LOT of what did actually happen with what was planned as happening. Many things the US did back then weren't planned, and even plans made after Pearl Harbor were changed as needed. Again IIRC, Plan Orange was really simple, and easy enough to guess. Also, very fitting for the times, with a large decisive battle with battleships, cruisers, etc; and rescuing the Philippines garrison. Something like that. I never focused much on it, same with Olympic, as they never happened. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
IIRC, that sounds more like mixing a LOT of what did actually happen with what was planned as happening. Many things the US did back then weren't planned, and even plans made after Pearl Harbor were changed as needed. Again IIRC, Plan Orange was really simple, and easy enough to guess. Also, very fitting for the times, with a large decisive battle with battleships, cruisers, etc; and rescuing the Philippines garrison. Something like that. I never focused much on it, same with Olympic, as they never happened. In fighting its battles in the Pacific, the Japanese jealously husbanded its big ships, hoping for a repeat of 1905. We on the other hand would not sail all the way to Japan and kept chipping away at the edges of the Empire. Thus the Japanese battle fleet was squandered piecemeal. Hara ("Japanese Destroyer Commander") complained about this strategy as many smaller Japanese ships were lost first and then larger units later. Biggest problem with the Japanese, they were just foolish imitators. Imitating the European empires of the world got them some success, but they were extremely prone to underestimating the US due to what most historians love to wrongly call 'racism.' By todays measure, the Japanese were the biggest racists around. The reason the US was surprised was most of our intel was from when they really were terribly equipped, which momentum kept alive through a period of a lack of intel. There was some though, so who knows how 'surprised' those at the top really were... other than that though, we had the Japanese down... Remember, the move of the US battle fleet to Hawaii was after the Royal Navy demonstrated that aircraft launched torpedoes can destroy anchored battleships. The RN did this in Toronto to Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy) with fabric covered biplanes (Swordfish). The fleet was very exposed and the move ordered by FDR there was considered provocative by the Japanese. So it wasn't a question of whether there would be war but when. Either way... Japan had no chance. They were relying on the US rolling over, as they didn't understand Americans at all. If you read Saburo Sakai, he covers the high level of training the pre-war IJN aviator received. The Japanese never kept up the training to replace pilots and air crews. Hence the later Japanese carriers were never as good as the ones lost at Midway. Ship crews for newer carriers were never trained up to the standard needed for modern warfare. Loss of the carriers Taiho and Shinano are illustrative of this. America on the other hand had a massive aviation program that trained thousands of pilots. Experienced combat pilots were rotated back to become trainers so as to pass on the newest information to the novices. By late 1944 we began slowing down the training as we were getting a glut and many civilian instructors wanted commissions (this is why the WASPs were never commissioned unlike the WAVES or the women marines). Besides aviators, in anticipation of WW II, we began designing and building new ships in the late '30s. This includes carriers (Essex class), battleships (North Carolina class), cruisers (Baltimore class heavy cruisers and Cleveland class light cruisers), destroyers (Fletcher class). What came late for us was the escorts ships (destroyer escorts, light carriers (which were Baltimore class cruisers built as carriers) and escort carriers), transport ships, LSTs, and a multitude of other ships needed to support a battlefleet. We were f*cking awesome back then and the industrial might of America along with better technology (radar, asdic, proximity fuses, better aircraft and engines) allowed the USN to grind down and destroy the once third largest navy in the pre-war era. |
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I'm convinced to the day I die the absence of carriers at Pearl turned the Pacific war. View Quote Although the IJN wanted to take out the carriers at Pearl Harbor, their primary focus was the battleships, with the carriers being #2. What is ironic is that their attack on Hawaii was made possible by the aircraft carrier, thus showing that it was to become the pre-eminent battle vessel in WW2, in spite of the fact that Japan focused on the battleships first and foremost. |
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The torpedo bombers, Douglas Devastator's, totally sucked. They were wiped out by the AA and zeros. Waste of pilots and fuel. The torpedo's weren't wasted, since they were likely duds, at that time in the war. View Quote |
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What is ironic is that their attack on Hawaii was made possible by the aircraft carrier, thus showing that it was to become the pre-eminent battle vessel in WW2, in spite of the fact that Japan focused on the battleships first and foremost. View Quote Japan like the US also had its own internal struggles with big gun oriented admirals v. aircraft/aircraft carrier oriented admirals. There was absolutely no need to build the Yamato or her sister. The resources would have been better used building 25,000 tons aircraft carriers with large air wings (as well as a good anti-submarine force). |
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Even Yamamoto thought attacking the US was a bad idea.
Say what you will, they picked the wrong people to fuck with. |
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