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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:38:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn that western water is cheap. I pay 8 cents per gallon, and I can see Lake Michigan from my house.... That's interesting I just looked for comparison the Milwaukee Water Works treats an average of 100 MGD with ozone and serves 867,000 people and charges $2 per 1000 gallons. The Southern Nevada Water Authority has 900 MGD capacity ( I'm not sure what the average is but we see more than 600 MGD during the summer) we also treat with ozone, serve ~2 million people and roughly 32 million visitors a year and rates charges start at $1.40 / 1000 but the tiered system takes it over $5 if you're a heavy user. A big part of the difference in cost is probably operational strategy, The source said the Milwaukee Water Works began pumping in 1874, SNWS started drawing water from Lake Mead in the 1970's. We have some older infrastructure and an early intake that dates to World War 2, but the bulk of our infrastructure is still considered "new" so the M part of O & M is likely far far less. Las Vegas also does something interesting, we have huge connection fees based on the size of a service connection, every new home is a several thousand dollars, large casino resorts are charged several million for their service connection, this one time fee places the burden of growth on the growth itself so billion dollar infrastructure projects are mostly being funded by the growth that necessitates those projects. This is one of the larger pump stations built in the late 1990's, it's an impressive facility, the ceiling of this room is at ground surface and I think it's max flow is around the Milwaukee Water works average daily output. 
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Posted: 6/13/2022 4:19:28 AM EDT
[#2]
I haven’t followed the thread, but I think it’s a big deal.
Not because climate change, or anything like that. But simply because the SW is in a bad position with water, that I hate to see it in. It is in many ways the best part of the country. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:56:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The tip of the tail is about 75 feet from the surface, from the latest report about two weeks ago. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How deep is that B-29 now? The tip of the tail is about 75 feet from the surface, from the latest report about two weeks ago. Won’t be long… |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 6:45:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Oh noes salt brine.
Pump it into some corner of the vast wastland desert. Hell, it used to be salt water ocean at some point in history. Theres plenty of space to shuffle off the undesirable salt waste where absolutely nobody is going to live. Ever drive phoenix to california? Throw a dart somewhere. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 6:56:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Hey let’s move 80 million people into a desert and wonder why they’re running out of water
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Posted: 6/13/2022 7:02:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Nuclear power and desalination plants make too much sense, so we don't do that. That's bad stuff.
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Posted: 6/13/2022 10:01:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Hmm... why could that be....
 Got to love leftists. Worry about the environment in one hand. Slam as many humans as possible into the USA from lower impact 3rd world venues. Want to solve environmental and resource issues - it's all about population size. Windfarms and electric cars doesn't mean jack shit. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 10:53:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hey let’s move 80 million people into a desert and wonder why they’re running out of water Why don’t you read the thread dope, then maybe you’d understand where the water is actually going. Hint, it isn’t peoples’ faucets and toilets. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 11:05:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If thats what it takes to live in a desert sustainably then thats what it takes. It's not. When I worked in real estate in Los Angeles I would go into apartments that had things like broken faucets that ran tub fillers at full volume 24/7/365 for the last ten years. The proper order is conservation, efficiency, recycling... and only then desalination. ETA: And the guy above me is right, most of the water goes to farmers to grow alfalfa and almonds in the desert. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 11:16:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why don’t you read the thread dope, then maybe you’d understand where the water is actually going. Hint, it isn’t peoples’ faucets and toilets. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hey let’s move 80 million people into a desert and wonder why they’re running out of water Why don’t you read the thread dope, then maybe you’d understand where the water is actually going. Hint, it isn’t peoples’ faucets and toilets. No, it's the food being grown, to feed the large increase in number of people. Speaking of which, all conservation measurements seem to always start focusing on the faucets and toilets, btw. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 11:17:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it's the food being grown, to feed the large increase in number of people. Speaking of which, all conservation measurements seem to always start focusing on the faucets and toilets, btw. Farmers are converting to more efficient systems as well but you just don't hear much about it. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 12:08:15 PM EDT
[#12]
4 years ago I visited the Hoover Damn and this is a shame. Do we tear down the damn when it does go dry. I mean its like its not needed anymore when the water is gone. Hopefully they recover some bones proving the place was wet once before.
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Posted: 6/13/2022 12:09:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Desal plants are only "relatively cheap to run" when contrasting costs to bringing in water by tanker or by aircraft, otherwise it doesn't get more expensive than desal. Lake Mead water is treated and delivered for $1.40 per 1000 gallons in Las Vegas Desal based on local energy costs $3 to $4 per 1,000 gallons was cited for Texas. The Huntington Beach plant that was proposed was going to cost $9 to $10 per 1000 gallons. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Aruba is a desert island with literally no fresh water. The entire island runs off one of the largest and best desalination plants. I can't believe that there aren't more desalination plants. They are relatively cheap to run, don't harm the environment and make some if the tastiest drinking water I have had. Heck my brother's sailboat mainly runs off solar, batteries and has a water maker....  Desal plants are only "relatively cheap to run" when contrasting costs to bringing in water by tanker or by aircraft, otherwise it doesn't get more expensive than desal. Lake Mead water is treated and delivered for $1.40 per 1000 gallons in Las Vegas California urban ratepayers rarely pay more than $1 to $3 per thousand gallons for their water. Desal based on local energy costs $3 to $4 per 1,000 gallons was cited for Texas. The Huntington Beach plant that was proposed was going to cost $9 to $10 per 1000 gallons. Still better than no water, though. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 12:25:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still better than no water, though. That's not at all the choice. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 12:31:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This +1000. Stop supplying water to california so that it will be forced to build desalinization plants. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Stop building giant cities, suburbs, and golf courses in the desert? Stop supplying water to california so that it will be forced to build desalinization plants. Yep, then the byproduct can kill off all the coastal marine life. TANSTAAFL. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 12:57:40 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still better than no water, though. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Aruba is a desert island with literally no fresh water. The entire island runs off one of the largest and best desalination plants. I can't believe that there aren't more desalination plants. They are relatively cheap to run, don't harm the environment and make some if the tastiest drinking water I have had. Heck my brother's sailboat mainly runs off solar, batteries and has a water maker.... Desal plants are only "relatively cheap to run" when contrasting costs to bringing in water by tanker or by aircraft, otherwise it doesn't get more expensive than desal. Lake Mead water is treated and delivered for $1.40 per 1000 gallons in Las Vegas California urban ratepayers rarely pay more than $1 to $3 per thousand gallons for their water. Desal based on local energy costs $3 to $4 per 1,000 gallons was cited for Texas. The Huntington Beach plant that was proposed was going to cost $9 to $10 per 1000 gallons. Still better than no water, though. Most water billing is based on the cost of treating and transmitting the "free" water, that is just there. What happens is The Tragedy Of The Commons', where the item value itself (water in this case) is not taken into account until it's gone. As to desal plants, the water commeth from the sea, the water returnith to the sea. And the water that was drawn, eventually returns to the sea via sewer or rainfall in the end anyway. Overfixation on localized salinity increases can be easily managed by extending the reject (concentrate) return lines back to sea further out. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 1:58:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If thats what it takes to live in a desert sustainably then thats what it takes. Except that isn't what it takes. That's what people that don't live in California think California should do. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:01:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As to desal plants, the water commeth from the sea, the water returnith to the sea. And the water that was drawn, eventually returns to the sea via sewer or rainfall in the end anyway. Overfixation on localized salinity increases can be easily managed by extending the reject (concentrate) return lines back to sea further out. You do know that sewerage isn't pumped into the ocean, right? They clean the water and then pump it into aquifers where they can withdraw it again. I'm not sure where evaporation ends up. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:05:57 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it's the food being grown, to feed the large increase in number of people. Speaking of which, all conservation measurements seem to always start focusing on the faucets and toilets, btw. Probably because folks don't riot over toilets nearly as much as they do about food shortages. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:06:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do know that sewerage isn't pumped into the ocean, right? They clean the water and then pump it into aquifers where they can withdraw it again. I'm not sure where evaporation ends up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As to desal plants, the water commeth from the sea, the water returnith to the sea. And the water that was drawn, eventually returns to the sea via sewer or rainfall in the end anyway. Overfixation on localized salinity increases can be easily managed by extending the reject (concentrate) return lines back to sea further out. You do know that sewerage isn't pumped into the ocean, right? They clean the water and then pump it into aquifers where they can withdraw it again. I'm not sure where evaporation ends up. Not everywhere. Most wwtp effluent goes into a creek or river and ends up in the ocean. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:11:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not. When I worked in real estate in Los Angeles I would go into apartments that had things like broken faucets that ran tub fillers at full volume 24/7/365 for the last ten years. The proper order is conservation, efficiency, recycling... and only then desalination. ETA: And the guy above me is right, most of the water goes to farmers to grow alfalfa and almonds in the desert. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If thats what it takes to live in a desert sustainably then thats what it takes. It's not. When I worked in real estate in Los Angeles I would go into apartments that had things like broken faucets that ran tub fillers at full volume 24/7/365 for the last ten years. The proper order is conservation, efficiency, recycling... and only then desalination. ETA: And the guy above me is right, most of the water goes to farmers to grow alfalfa and almonds in the desert. I agree with you on all of that. I'm just saying if we've reached the end of that line, which I know we have not. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:12:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that isn't what it takes. That's what people that don't live in California think California should do. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If thats what it takes to live in a desert sustainably then thats what it takes. Except that isn't what it takes. That's what people that don't live in California think California should do. Why did you respond to my post twice?  But if you read my other posts in this thread, you'll know that I don't think it's the next step. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:25:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmm... why could that be.... https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2022/03/Annual-World-Population-since-10-thousand-BCE.png Got to love leftists. Worry about the environment in one hand. Slam as many humans as possible into the USA from lower impact 3rd world venues. Want to solve environmental and resource issues - it's all about population size. Windfarms and electric cars doesn't mean jack shit. i am not sure why we are looking at a world population graph going back 12k years when we are discussing a regional drought over a couple of decades? lake mead was essentially full in 2000. the population of the us has increased by 47 million in that time. It doesn't really compare to the scale of world population growth. CA is responsible for 6m az 2m nv 1m ut 1m co 2m wyo 100k nm 300k |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:34:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But golf courses, and lawn are green, fuck growing food though. Respectfully, they already do what you suggested, and it's part of the problem. Roughly 80% of the water used by businesses and households in CA is used for agriculture. Or looked at differently (in terms of where all the water goes), 40% of all water in California ends up being used for agriculture. In CA, water is heavily subsidized for farmers, which empowers them to grow produce that otherwise wouldn't grow in California's climate. So while it may be the case that golf courses are wasteful, the agriculture you're wishing they'd use the water for actually IS where a large portion of the water already goes. As you can imagine, that might make a dent in reservoirs. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:38:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why did you respond to my post twice? But if you read my other posts in this thread, you'll know that I don't think it's the next step. I saw it twice and it bugged me twice. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:39:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not everywhere. Most wwtp effluent goes into a creek or river and ends up in the ocean. We are talking about CA, AZ and NV here, I don't really care about PA. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:45:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i am not sure why we are looking at a world population graph going back 12k years when we are discussing a regional drought over a couple of decades? lake mead was essentially full in 2000. the population of the us has increased by 47 million in that time. It doesn't really compare to the scale of world population growth. CA is responsible for 6m az 2m nv 1m ut 1m co 2m wyo 100k nm 300k Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hmm... why could that be.... https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2022/03/Annual-World-Population-since-10-thousand-BCE.png Got to love leftists. Worry about the environment in one hand. Slam as many humans as possible into the USA from lower impact 3rd world venues. Want to solve environmental and resource issues - it's all about population size. Windfarms and electric cars doesn't mean jack shit. i am not sure why we are looking at a world population graph going back 12k years when we are discussing a regional drought over a couple of decades? lake mead was essentially full in 2000. the population of the us has increased by 47 million in that time. It doesn't really compare to the scale of world population growth. CA is responsible for 6m az 2m nv 1m ut 1m co 2m wyo 100k nm 300k Humans and food product is more fungible than one might think. It's an indicator of the rapid rate of demand growth, and while obviously an exagreation on the time scale, the reality is the population of the planet has doubled in my lifetime. And in the USA, close to that. That's a huge uptick in food supply demand as well. All of which adds up to drain water resources from areas that have limited water resources. Humans = food consumption = water consumption. And CA grown food travels far and wide. |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 2:54:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Maybe the will be able to recover that B-29 that sank in the lake...
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Posted: 6/13/2022 3:48:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe the will be able to recover that B-29 that sank in the lake... Who's going to be the first to float a conspiracy: "The government is CAUSING Lake Mead to dry up! This is the only way they can recover the top-secret reconnaissance equipment they installed on it!" |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 5:03:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are talking about CA, AZ and NV here, I don't really care about PA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not everywhere. Most wwtp effluent goes into a creek or river and ends up in the ocean. We are talking about CA, AZ and NV here, I don't really care about PA. It isn’t everywhere in those places either. ETA. 15 years in the industry. What’s your background? |
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Posted: 6/13/2022 7:56:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who's going to be the first to float a conspiracy: "The government is CAUSING Lake Mead to dry up! This is the only way they can recover the top-secret reconnaissance equipment they installed on it!" No no, the fourth A-bomb is on board! |
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Posted: 6/14/2022 2:59:13 AM EDT
[#32]
 #632 The Emerging Secrets of Lake Mead: Is It Really As Bad As They Say? |
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Posted: 6/14/2022 3:04:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, then the byproduct can kill off all the coastal marine life. TANSTAAFL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Stop building giant cities, suburbs, and golf courses in the desert? Stop supplying water to california so that it will be forced to build desalinization plants. Yep, then the byproduct can kill off all the coastal marine life. TANSTAAFL. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem that can't be overcome. You don't have to just have one giant pipe/outlet dumping briney water directly into the ocean directly on the coastline. |
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Posted: 6/14/2022 3:39:50 AM EDT
[#34]
Just make a big circular train track and dump the salt in the deserts of NV. I just read a story that our landfill has enough capacity to run until 2175. I'm sure we can find another to hold salt.
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Posted: 6/14/2022 8:32:04 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not sure why you think this is a problem that can't be overcome. You don't have to just have one giant pipe/outlet dumping briney water directly into the ocean directly on the coastline. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Stop building giant cities, suburbs, and golf courses in the desert? Stop supplying water to california so that it will be forced to build desalinization plants. Yep, then the byproduct can kill off all the coastal marine life. TANSTAAFL. I'm not sure why you think this is a problem that can't be overcome. You don't have to just have one giant pipe/outlet dumping briney water directly into the ocean directly on the coastline. Exactly. The salinity issue is a canard. |
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Posted: 6/14/2022 11:59:19 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 6/14/2022 1:00:01 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It isn’t everywhere in those places either. ETA. 15 years in the industry. What’s your background? Not water. But I have lived in places where water is used to charge aquifers, run thermal plants and for potable reuse for most of my life. |
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Posted: 6/14/2022 1:18:44 PM EDT
[#38]
weird double
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Posted: 6/14/2022 1:18:56 PM EDT
[#39]
Waste water is either (after treatment) used to service golf courses and such or dumped back into Mead via the Las Vegas wash.
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Posted: 6/14/2022 2:44:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Wonder if any of this massive rain and flooding in MT will make it down there? Looks like no...it ends up in the MS river.
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Posted: 6/14/2022 3:21:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Well, I guess they just SOL. And the rest of us are just gonna have to accept the fact that we're not gonna be able to eat stuff that's outta season.
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:09:42 PM EDT
[#42]
 Is Lake Mead Still Drying Up? Weeds Growing - 30 Day Update |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:15:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryI am surprised she did a video without taking off her clothes. She really pushes her modeling and nudity adventures. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:18:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hmm... why could that be.... https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2022/03/Annual-World-Population-since-10-thousand-BCE.png Got to love leftists. Worry about the environment in one hand. Slam as many humans as possible into the USA from lower impact 3rd world venues. Want to solve environmental and resource issues - it's all about population size. Windfarms and electric cars doesn't mean jack shit. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not water. But I have lived in places where water is used to charge aquifers, run thermal plants and for potable reuse for most of my life. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It isn’t everywhere in those places either. ETA. 15 years in the industry. What’s your background? Not water. But I have lived in places where water is used to charge aquifers, run thermal plants and for potable reuse for most of my life. It is very controversial and isn’t nearly universally accepted. It is often a technique of last resort. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:34:37 PM EDT
[#46]
Eh. SW is a desert. It was abnormally wet for most of the 20th century. They'll cut a big chunk of the farmers' and ranchers' water off, kill off all the lawns in the SW, and ban pools. Shower heads will approximate a stream of piss, a toilet flush will throw a quart of water in the bowl.
By then, everyone reading this will be dead and it won't be a problem for us anymore. Ag land out there is in for price correction if you don't water. Oh, all our grocery bills are going up even more. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:37:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who's going to be the first to float a conspiracy: "The government is CAUSING Lake Mead to dry up! This is the only way they can recover the top-secret reconnaissance equipment they installed on it!" Well, the water level of every man-made lake on the Colorado is, MAN MADE! It's as if we control the dams and release rates somehow. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:40:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Mean while in the Midwest the great lakes are above level.
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:43:02 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mean while in the Midwest the great lakes are above level. Need to dig a big canal and bring that water out west. Heck, might as well make it a huge shipping lane as well. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 1:46:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Yellowstone had a flood.
Is the drought over? 
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