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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:01:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never argued that a hi power is more resilient than an average Glock. I have no idea and neither do you. 13k or 60k rounds are more than the majority of shooters or guns will ever experience. Regardless, every gun will fail eventually. A population value of 1 does not statistically mean anything. Just because your gun failed earlier than a Glock doesn’t mean that others will, especially when comparing guns with modern manufacturing against each other. You would need to compare large populations of guns against each other in order to develop any sort of statistical analysis. That comparison has already been done and that's why no modern Western military still uses Hi-Powers. You're welcome. I get it, Hi-Powers are seductive, beautiful creatures. I've been shooting them since before you were born and not dirt-clod shooting either. So, something to consider as we discuss our relative experiences. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:03:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Obligatory; that said when captured Saddam had a Glock 18 instead of his Hi-Power
 
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:15:19 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That comparison has already been done and that's why no modern Western military still uses Hi-Powers. You're welcome. Again, there is not a statistical analysis stating a p-value that correlates to any other pistol being more or less reliable than the pistol at hand. Any single anecdote is statistically insignificant in any analysis. Additionally, you are comparing apples and oranges. Metallurgy has significantly changed from the initial production of the hi power in 1935 to the first year of Glock production. You would need to compare like products to attempt at comparing them. I’ve already attempted to explain why no western military uses them. Obviously it’s related to cost and safety and not effectiveness. It’s clearly more cost effective for a western military to buy a polymer framed pistol that throws a 124gr chuck of lead at the same speed at half the cost. That all has nothing to do with what an individual has for choices. I respect your join date, I personally started following this forum around 2006 and only joined in 2009. Despite your experience and knowledge, I am challenging it and attempting to create dialogue on what I feel is a significantly better option for many people as opposed to the standard quo |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:15:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Israelis invented Israeli carry because they had a diverse armory of pistols and minimal time to train the people carrying them. That's a method that maximizes safety across a wide range of different pistols with limited training required. I used to be amazed, watching the Israeli’s soldiers showing off their quick draw skills. . It often looked kind of like they were drawing the pistol with two hands, and most of them were so fast you didn’t even realize they were racking the slide as they were bringing the pistol up to eye level. It took a lot of training to get that good. A lot. Your explanation might’ve made sense for the conscripts, but even Isayeret had to carry their hi powers with an empty pipe, and long after everyone had hi powers. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:34:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven’t been alive for 3 decades so can’t be wrong that long You started your arfcom account at 15 years old? |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:41:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You started your arfcom account at 15 years old? 14 |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 3:42:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, there is not a statistical analysis stating a p-value that correlates to any other pistol being more or less reliable than the pistol at hand. Any single anecdote is statistically insignificant in any analysis. Additionally, you are comparing apples and oranges. Metallurgy has significantly changed from the initial production of the hi power in 1935 to the first year of Glock production. You would need to compare like products to attempt at comparing them. I’ve already attempted to explain why no western military uses them. Obviously it’s related to cost and safety and not effectiveness. It’s clearly more cost effective for a western military to buy a polymer framed pistol that throws a 124gr chuck of lead at the same speed at half the cost. That all has nothing to do with what an individual has for choices. I respect your join date, I personally started following this forum around 2006 and only joined in 2009. Despite your experience and knowledge, I am challenging it and attempting to create dialogue on what I feel is a significantly better option for many people as opposed to the standard quo The metallurgy we are comparing is a mid-90s cast frame Hi-Power to modern polymer pistols. I can show you where FN quietly redesigned the slide stop on the Hi-Power around 2000, because it was a point of failure - like the firing pin retaining plate, the recoil spring guide, the extractor, etc. Secondly, you argue it is cost over effectiveness but have offered zero evidence on effectiveness over modern alternatives. Perhaps you'd like to provide some p-values there? In what world is a Hi-Power a better option than modern choices? It's bigger, heavier, has less capacity, costs more, doesn't last as long, etc. They're beautiful pistols. They're just obsolete. It happens to the best of us. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 4:04:18 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately the new “high power” is not a new version but a complete redesign. It’s a scam that they called it that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We'll see if FN's new version can change that; but they definitely aren't aiming at the cost-conscious market. Unfortunately the new “high power” is not a new version but a complete redesign. It’s a scam that they called it that. I’m not a Hipower guy, but I like the new version better than the old, simply for 17+1 capacity. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 4:22:09 AM EDT
[#9]
CZ 75 SP-01
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Posted: 4/18/2023 4:22:58 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 4/18/2023 4:28:29 AM EDT
[#11]
The 9mm 2011 basically destroyed any reason for the original Hi-Power to exist beyond style points. Same profile, better trigger, usually better capacity, etc. It's like John Browning didn't have to work around his earlier patent or something.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 4:57:42 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does the hi power take glock mags?  @xoldsmugglerx Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The gun that literally copies exactly what a hi power is but almost a century later? Thanks but I'll stick to the original Does the hi power take glock mags? @xoldsmugglerx r/fosscad |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 6:35:14 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:17:19 AM EDT
[#14]
G19
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:22:47 AM EDT
[#15]
There is no best, not anymore. Maybe best class of 9mm of which yall pretty much know the list.
And there's no turkish stuff or plastic sigs on it. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:37:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: P210 is cool and an extremely awesome pistol but it's still a single stack 8 rd mag. It's obsolete against its peers unlike the P35 Quote HistoryQuoted: P210 is cool and an extremely awesome pistol but it's still a single stack 8 rd mag. It's obsolete against its peers unlike the P35 Shoots like a dream though. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:41:20 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You started your arfcom account at 15 years old? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I haven’t been alive for 3 decades so can’t be wrong that long You started your arfcom account at 15 years old? Kinda puts things in perspective, as far as join date/post count equalling real life experience. Not talking shit, merely an observation. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:41:50 AM EDT
[#18]
Disappointing lack of HK slap in this thread.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 7:45:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, there is not a statistical analysis stating a p-value that correlates to any other pistol being more or less reliable than the pistol at hand. Any single anecdote is statistically insignificant in any analysis. Additionally, you are comparing apples and oranges. Metallurgy has significantly changed from the initial production of the hi power in 1935 to the first year of Glock production. You would need to compare like products to attempt at comparing them. I’ve already attempted to explain why no western military uses them. Obviously it’s related to cost and safety and not effectiveness. It’s clearly more cost effective for a western military to buy a polymer framed pistol that throws a 124gr chuck of lead at the same speed at half the cost. That all has nothing to do with what an individual has for choices. I respect your join date, I personally started following this forum around 2006 and only joined in 2009. Despite your experience and knowledge, I am challenging it and attempting to create dialogue on what I feel is a significantly better option for many people as opposed to the standard quo It's primarily cost, however there is a durability issue encountered when swapping to an alloy frame variant to compete from a weight standpoint. Modern metallurgy doesn't really solve that particular issue. It's inherent in the rail, firing mechanism and recoil impact surfaces of the assembly. A modern steel frame model will hold up just fine with competitive lifespan, but again, wont compete weight size. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:09:50 AM EDT
[#20]
This thread pretends the USP doesn't exist.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:17:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistorySwiss perfection, like a Rolex. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:22:29 AM EDT
[#22]
I regret selling my MKii, but meh. They weigh +/- 35oz which is a couple oz shy of a 4" GP100 or S&W 686 with a shaved barrel. Why carry a heavy 9mm when you can carry a heavy .357?
If you’re going to go down in power to a weak 9mm, the P365 and ilk have pretty much perfected effortless carry. If we’re talking a range toy, well then yeah. A P229 or P226 is a better gun with a better trigger though and no safety to deal with. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:23:40 AM EDT
[#23]
LOL, the P35 with its Rube Goldberg trigger is far from the best anything.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:32:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, the P35 with its Rube Goldberg trigger is far from the best anything.  I LIKE hipowers a lot, but you can never get quite as good of a trigger on one than on a 1911 (or SIG P210, CZ, etc) because the slide to frame fit is involved, and you have 3 extra parts in the system compared to a 1911. I've also broken a hi power barrel, which isn't super uncommon at higher round counts. There was no warning at all, just a non-functioning pistol. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:38:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It'll break long before most pistols built in the last three decades will. It's expensive to manufacture as are the replacement parts. I've broken multiple Hi-Powers. One of my favorite pistols ever; but I just gave up on it, like everyone else has. Also, the various issues you mention are factors; but cost and durability (lack of) are the real reasons it is being abandoned. We'll see if FN's new version can change that; but they definitely aren't aiming at the cost-conscious market. This. The "cost conscious market" is that the vast majority of gun buyers are cheap. The reason Glocks got so popular, is that they were low cost and a better step up from the Ravens/Hi-Points of the day. There are so many high quality 9mm's today, it'd be hard to say which one is best. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:44:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Meh.
CZ-75 did it better. But for carry give me a polymer frame. I ain't hauling that heavy shit around all the time. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:45:24 AM EDT
[#27]
That’d be the Beretta 92.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 8:52:45 AM EDT
[#28]
The best all around 9mm handgun is the CZ P07 or P09 depending on the size you want.
You can have it DA/SA or SAO, and it absolutely does not stop... I've got over 10K rounds through my P07, and I have never had a malfunction with it. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:24:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryAs late as 2015, people in the .mil were still getting hurt by Beretta slide failures. I've never heard of a Hi-Power launching a slide half into anyone's face, so its about 80 years ahead on that front.  |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:40:28 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As late as 2015, people in the .mil were still getting hurt by Beretta slide failures. I've never heard of a Hi-Power launching a slide half into anyone's face, so its about 80 years ahead on that front. https://www.billstclair.com/weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Beretta_M9_FAIL.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.billstclair.com/weaponsman.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Beretta_M9_FAIL.jpg Yeah, but how many Marines carried Hi-Powers in an area with fine sand? We'll destroy every gun. haha I carried a 92 in Iraq for a few years and that thing was a rattle trap. Plus the fact on some of the bigger bases you had to carry it Condition 4 on your leg holster. So in order for sand not to enter every crevice, we would stuff the magwell with a rag. Lot of people didn't and that fine moondust sand got everywhere. You would clean the gun and a few hours try to rack the slide and it sounded like you just found your gun buried on a beach for the past week. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:47:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Over 90 year-old design and still going strong. I don't think many realize how innovative that pistol was in its day...for me, it's the grip; very few handguns get it right and Browning (and FN) got this one right. https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/v440/ROCK-6/Firearms/.highres/RangeDay-4.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds" target="_blank">https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/v440/ROCK-6/Firearms/.highres/RangeDay-4.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds There are two handguns in this world that I have personally held that feel like I went to a gun smith and had them custom made for me out of their box...the Kahr P9 and the Hi-Power. I own neither. I have no use for a P9 and the right deal for what i want in a HP has not presented itself and I have not looked that hard. I began working LE almost 25 years ago as the Glock .40 became king. As I type this, getting ready to go to work, I have my duty gun on my hip, a Glock G45. It has 2 more rounds on board than the HP and sights and holsters are all I need to add to shoot perfect quals with it. My holster is a Safariland from Amazon or some other online mega site. The HP is a wonderful gun and honestly does not get the credit it deserves against the 1911, but it's got a lot of cons compared to the modern fighting handgun. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:49:23 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 4/18/2023 9:55:33 AM EDT
[#33]
Before owning one, I'd have argued.
It really is an exceptional handgun though, especially considering its history. Its gotten carried a ton in the year I've owned it. There is no perfect handgun, but its definitely a contender for my favorite.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:11:53 AM EDT
[#34]
I’m a huge fan of the BHP and have been shooting them for decades. My Dad gave me one for Christmas when I was in the fourth grade so I literally mean decades.
They were way ahead of their time and when tuned up are an absolute dream to shoot. That being said, they have flaws and are far from perfect: -The trigger can be tuned up to be extremely crisp once the magazine disconnect is removed (another problem). However, you’ll never be able to fix the long reset which is a burden when you want to run it fast. When you shoot more modern guns and then go back to it you notice how significant this is. -It won’t reliably feed HP without work and tuning. It’s not terribly difficult to do, but it’s still a concern. -It’s not rated for +p ammunition. -The safety sucks in stock form. That can be fixed but it absolutely needs to be fixed. -They self destruct at high round counts. You cannot just beat on them for years and stack up tens of thousands of rounds like you can a G17, CZ-75, P226 or even a 1911. -Difficulty integrating optics, lights etc which is really a tangential issue but important for keeping it relevant. It saddens me that FN/Browning failed to keep updating the BHP over the years to address these issues and to keep it relevant in the modern world. Think about what CZ has done with the -75. It’s borne the SP01, P01, Shadow, Shadow 2, TS series, etc. there should have been similar development and improvement of the BHP over the years. Unfortunately that relegates it to a historical status of interest more than a truly useful handgun in the modern age. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:17:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m a huge fan of the BHP and have been shooting them for decades. My Dad gave me one for Christmas when I was in the fourth grade so I literally mean decades. They were way ahead of their time and when tuned up are an absolute dream to shoot. That being said, they have flaws and are far from perfect: -The trigger can be tuned up to be extremely crisp once the magazine disconnect is removed (another problem). However, you’ll never be able to fix the long reset which is a burden when you want to run it fast. When you shoot more modern guns and then go back to it you notice how significant this is. -It won’t reliably feed HP without work and tuning. It’s not terribly difficult to do, but it’s still a concern. -It’s not rated for +p ammunition. -The safety sucks in stock form. That can be fixed but it absolutely needs to be fixed. -They self destruct at high round counts. You cannot just beat on them for years and stack up tens of thousands of rounds like you can a G17, CZ-75, P226 or even a 1911. -Difficulty integrating optics, lights etc which is really a tangential issue but important for keeping it relevant. It saddens me that FN/Browning failed to keep updating the BHP over the years to address these issues and to keep it relevant in the modern world. Think about what CZ has done with the -75. It’s borne the SP01, P01, Shadow, Shadow 2, TS series, etc. there should have been similar development and improvement of the BHP over the years. Unfortunately that relegates it to a historical status of interest more than a truly useful handgun in the modern age. Great post, couldnt have said it better. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:18:56 AM EDT
[#36]
...the one on your hip. For me that's a CZ P01.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:19:19 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Optics cut? Does it use plates or is it cut for a specific optic? Could be done but it's not for me: https://i.postimg.cc/156rdxJZ/hi-power6.jpg Oh my |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:20:04 AM EDT
[#38]
I probably lean CZ-75, but i dont own any Hi-Powers yet. I keep eyeballing the Girsan clones at my local shop.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:24:54 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Before owning one, I'd have argued. It really is an exceptional handgun though, especially considering its history. Its gotten carried a ton in the year I've owned it. There is no perfect handgun, but its definitely a contender for my favorite. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/350579/20220418_204905_jpg-2787182.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/350579/20230319_090309__1__jpg-2787181.JPG This post is enough to make me want to buy one. That Springfield looks great. G.A.S. = gun acquisition syndrome. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:37:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I regret selling my MKii, but meh. They weigh +/- 35oz which is a couple oz shy of a 4" GP100 or S&W 686 with a shaved barrel. Why carry a heavy 9mm when you can carry a heavy .357? If you’re going to go down in power to a weak 9mm, the P365 and ilk have pretty much perfected effortless carry. If we’re talking a range toy, well then yeah. A P229 or P226 is a better gun with a better trigger though and no safety to deal with. Because a heavy 9mm has higher capacity and is significantly more effective in every relevant way. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:46:58 AM EDT
[#41]
In on a Hi Power thread:
 Going to shoot a USPSA match with it next month I think. Should be fun to see how it does. Hi Powers are awesome, 1911’s are awesome, hell even Tupperware is awesome. Buy what you like and shoot it. 
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:48:17 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: The P-35 Hi-Power. I think a lot of people are really missing out without ever experiencing the awesomeness of a hi-power. It has: -Double stack mag around the size of a Glock 19 with an excellent grip contour that comes on target naturally -Single action trigger as smooth as a 1911 (remove the mag safety first) -Can be modernized and updated just like a 1911 including Novak sights, extended safety, etc. For a pistol designed in the 1930's, it was so far ahead of everything else on the market and is still very relevant. I own all of the Sigs, CZ-75's, Beretta's, Glocks, 1911's, etc. and I always come back to the Hi-Power as my favorite design. My first experience with this pistol was a 1942 era Pistole 640(b) that my great uncle brought back with him from the Battle of the Bulge. I shot it plenty when I was young and fell in love with the design. I've since owned multiple FN hi-powers and am planning on buying an SA-35 eventually. https://i.postimg.cc/HkNJnWgF/hi-power1.webp https://i.postimg.cc/C1GdcjqV/hi-power2.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/kGysP6L0/hi-power3.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/4xXd3Kq8/hi-power4.jpg Sure, in 1935. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:51:27 AM EDT
[#43]
I love the P-35. A MK II was my first semi-auto when I turned 21 in 1985. I was in the Navy, and it took a long time to accumulate the $400 that it cost new back then.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:56:05 AM EDT
[#44]
Owned a few HP's over the years and my keeper is an Izzy Belgium. Better trigger after taking the mag safety spring and plunger out. They point naturally and easy to shoot well.
I have a love hate relationship withy it because it draws my blood every time I fire it from hammer bite. Not the spur but the base of the hammer.   My favorite 9mm goes to the CZ family. They fit the hand and point well , better sights, run great and they do not bite ham hands.     |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 10:58:27 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:02:39 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In on a Hi Power thread: https://i.imgur.com/Jvx4Y5Z.jpg Going to shoot a USPSA match with it next month I think. Should be fun to see how it does. Hi Powers are awesome, 1911’s are awesome, hell even Tupperware is awesome. Buy what you like and shoot it. Unfortunately that puts you in Limited Minor. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:06:54 AM EDT
[#47]
Yeet Cannon, takes every mag (including .50BMG), can be concealed anywhere, and goes with every pair of shoes you own.
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:35:55 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because a heavy 9mm has higher capacity and is significantly more effective in every relevant way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I regret selling my MKii, but meh. They weigh +/- 35oz which is a couple oz shy of a 4" GP100 or S&W 686 with a shaved barrel. Why carry a heavy 9mm when you can carry a heavy .357? If you’re going to go down in power to a weak 9mm, the P365 and ilk have pretty much perfected effortless carry. If we’re talking a range toy, well then yeah. A P229 or P226 is a better gun with a better trigger though and no safety to deal with. Because a heavy 9mm has higher capacity and is significantly more effective in every relevant way. Not sure about that. In fact I’ll just say you’re wrong. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:37:23 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately that puts you in Limited Minor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In on a Hi Power thread: https://i.imgur.com/Jvx4Y5Z.jpg Going to shoot a USPSA match with it next month I think. Should be fun to see how it does. Hi Powers are awesome, 1911’s are awesome, hell even Tupperware is awesome. Buy what you like and shoot it. Unfortunately that puts you in Limited Minor. Probably, don’t really care though, I’m not a serious competitor by any means. |
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Posted: 4/18/2023 11:45:01 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure about that. In fact I’ll just say you’re wrong. 100% unmitigated horseshit. A full size 9mm allows you to put more rounds on target, faster and more accurately with faster, more efficient reloads and more rounds available for the same form factor. Run both over a COF and the difference is measurable. As the complexity of the COF increases the difference becomes more significant. Performance can be measured. Performance is all that matters. |
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