Patton knew what was up and what the USSR was going to become, he wanted to keep right on going.

It was obvious to anyone at the time who cared to look that the Soviets were not friends to the West.

Wars are won by logistics. You aren't going anywhere or killing anyone without them.

What's that old chestnut? "Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."

You're grossly overestimating the military  capabilities of the British and U.S. forces and grossly underestimating the Soviets' at the end of WWII. You're also ignoring the fact that the Brits and U.S. would have to deal with even worse logistics and supply chain problems than the ones that did the Germans in as they penetrated deep into Russia. Even if the Brits and the U.S. could win, what would they do then?

Patton also thought he was the reincarnation of Hanibal Barca and a Greek Hoplite

Lol a Californian Coloradan lecturing me about MAGA. What color was your state again?

2. Propaganda is Propaganda, a large part of figuring out what the truth is is reading both sides Propaganda. I'm not afraid of a failed ideologies propaganda. For Example, did you know Katyn was blamed on the Nazis for decades, turns out NKVD did it.
7. I do HATE Democracy, and so should you. The Founders made this joint a Republic for a reason, and every ill that it has has been exacerbated by more and more Democracy being introduced.
8. You are objecting to me saying " An unforgivable right-wing book which I found to be a waste of time." sold me on reading through it. Well that's explained by your location. Words, thoughts, and ideologies aren't dangerous. Actions are dangerous.

The Book IS 88er Hitler Dindu Nuffin/Jews deserved it propaganda mixed with Tinfoil (which is interesting cognitive dissonance), but it all isn't absolute BS (especially the part about US communist sympathsizers and the treatment of Germans by the Soviets).
Not in the slightest.

What did the Soviets have that could stop B29s? What did they have to compare with the P51 and P47? They didn't have nukes. The Sherman Easy 8 shits all over the T34/55 (as proven by the Israelis and UN crews) M26 Pershing is a rough analogue to their heavy tanks. The Soviets were grossly overextended at the end of the War and using our supplies, you cut that off and you got a replay of the first push of Barbarossa. Churchill and Patton were right, FDR was wrong and a Communist Sympathizer (along with possibly Eisenhower)

That's the same types of stupidity that I saw also. So this jackoff is saying that the American troops that freed the prisoners in Dachau and other death camps were all liars? The American troops that were tortured and witnessed their comrades summarily executed by SS were liars also? Or all the other survivors of SS and Gestapo torture and murder were all making it up? What a crock of BS and it's disgusting that these parasites are trying to make money with their revisionist history crap.

Well... It would explain a lot.

Supplies are kinda moot if you don't have anyone to give them to. Supplies, by themselves, don't win wars.

The US Army didn't even field 100 divisions. The Krauts had more than twice that. We would have needed over 200 divisions to win by ourselves.

I know what you are saying, truly I do. Try to see what I'm saying, please.

The point being he was known to say some fairly kooky stuff.

Brilliant people tend to be a little eccentric.

That depends on what we're calling a division. By the end of the war there were panzer  "divisions" that had less than a half dozen operational tanks.

Churchill asked for a staff plan of an attack on the Soviet Union just after the war. It was called "Operation Unthinkable." The conclusion was that the US/UK would get whipped by the Soviets, and the best course of action in the event of war was to evacuate the Continent.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/06/13/operation_unthinkable_churchills_plan_to_start_world_war_iii_26091

A photocopy of the plan is floating around somewhere. The link above is often silly in assessing motives. Churchill wanted the planning done in order to be fully informed of the consequences of various courses of action.

Well there are certainly degrees of it we are talking about. But the days of shooting the kulaks and massive command economies are long over.

Over? Nah. On Hiatus.

History says otherwise.  Over and over again.

We capped the number of Divisions we raised for various reasons, not because we couldn't have raised more of them but because the "brain trust" decided on the size the Army should be while keeping a percentage of men at home to work towards the war effort. It was a balancing act, and I'm not completely certain the formulas were right, but it's what we fought with. We sent enough lend-lease equipment to the Soviets alone that if it would have stayed here we could have fully outfitted 100 more divisions, if we weren't sending them that and didn't put a cap on our own Army size there isn't much the Germans could have done about it.

The Germans would have still lost, but overall final casualties would have been different if it stayed totally conventional, lower final casualties for the Germans and higher for us; not because we couldn't kill as many of them as the Russians did, but when they started to surrender en masse we'd actually take care of them instead of sending them to Siberia to die off or just shoot them on the spot. That's aside from using nukes, if the Germans were still resisting in Aug. 45 whether we were winning or not or even just in a stalemate, mushrooms were going to start growing over the Reich as that was the plan all along; if both Germany and Japan were in it at that point the Germans would have gotten the nukes not the Japanese. While public opinion would have favored nuking the Japanese over the Germans, the Japanese were so wrecked at that point that nuking them as soon as we had the bomb wouldn't have been a priority, we could take our time with dropping on them but using them on the Germans would have had a larger overall effect on not only that theater of war, but also the post-war situation so it would have gotten a priority and Berlin would likely be the first target. We could hold off on nuking Japan as long as we weren't considering invading the Home Islands immediately, with Germany still in the mix at that point the Japanese would have been back-burnered so the Germans wouldn't have had to wait until '46 to get nuked.

Germany's production did indeed go up as the war went on because the German industry never went on a wartime production footing until 1942-3 in many sectors of their economy, they were still churning out civilian goods to keep the people at home happy and show that since they conquered Western Europe all was well everywhere. They didn't get better at making things as the war went on, but it finally took them that long to realize total war means that the hausfraus may have to be disappointed when they go to the store. Even after they ramped up production their numbers were orders of magnitude worse than ours on an apples to apples, month to month basis. And despite the German tech edge in certain areas the fact remains that in '44-45 the bulk of their infantry divisions were still using horses, you aren't going to win a war with horses hauling your equipment when your enemy is completely motorized, your trains are just strafing run practice for escort fighters on their way back to base, and you're trying to make aviation gas out of coal.

Wars are eventually won by killing the enemy and taking his real estate, but without beans and bullets your army isn't combat effective and you're not going to be doing much killing. When only 10% of your divisions have motorized transport (and that mainly just being the Panzer and Panzer Grenadier units) you're not going to fare well against an enemy that has 100% motorization through every unit type when it comes to taking real estate either.

The Germans started a war they could only win (or just break even on) with a negotiated peace, and their actions during the course of the war made even suggesting a negotiated peace with them a complete non-starter. It wouldn't have been a walkover, but we would have won in the end, nukes or not.

I actually do see your point, I'm not trying to be argumentative just for argument's sake, but if the Russians are taken out of the equation it's not a net gain for just the Germans in a theoretical Germany vs. US showdown. A lot of resources that were wasted on the Soviets (and yes much of it was idiotically wasteful and done for propaganda/making Stalin happy sort of reasons) would have been available to us that weren't otherwise. The Army size cap would be more problematic to solve, but I'm sure if Eisenhower said,"We can't win without 50 more infantry divisions..." he would have gotten them, and equipping them would have been far less of a problem than getting authorization for the manpower increase.

My gosh, I can't believe some of what I am reading.

Thank you!

Why couldn't the allies minus the USSR have opened up a second front? Churchill wanted another front in the Balkans. Stalin was already eyefucking eastern and central Europe so he advocated for what became Operation Dragoon.

A successful Balkans invasion would have taken away oil from the Nazis and created a 2nd front closer to Germany than where the eastern front lines were at the time of Overload.



The Balkans were ripe for the taking, but FDR was more concerned about keeping Stalin happy and wanted to make sure Britain never became imperial after the war. (Areas in pink were controlled by Yugoslav resistance)



A Balkans landing in the Summer of '44 might have made V-E Day 6 months sooner and definitely would have caused the post war Iron Curtain to be a hell of a lot closer to the USSR. The fact that FDR agreed to let Stalin have Poland after the USSR's joint invasion of Poland with the Nazis should be unforgivable.

It seems like a good movie could be made on the subject at hand. Allies defeat Axis, then the US splits and goes after Russia.

Very little of what we see today would be how it is, had that story been real.

So pretty much like half the threads on the front page of GD?  Globalists stole my lunch, globalists gave me a flat tire, blah blah blah.

Wow, and I just wanted to know if anyone read the book.

Certainly learning alot from the responses.

I skimmed the book, looks like shit.  Jews this, jews that.  Good thread though.

This is why Patton had to die.

I know hiyaboa is banned, but I think he's trying to focus on the distinction between concentration camps and extermination camps.   Yes, many deaths occurred at concentration camps, but killing prisoners was not their primary focus.  Extermination camps operated primarily to kill those sent there, either directly or indirectly.  The problem with this distinction is that one of the satellite facilities for Dachau, Hartheim Castle, WAS used for mass murder, although not on the same scale as at the dedicated extermination camps (200-250/week, reportedly taken from Dachau to Hartheim Castle's gas chamber), and the extermination was stopped primarily because of growing interest in using the prisoners as forced labor.

I knew my OST would pay off.

Ideally we and the other Allied powers dial back Lend-Lease and other logistic aid to the Soviets to a perfect point where the Eastern Front becomes a long, bloody stalemate near the Soviet border.  Let both sides bleed themselves white while Patton sweeps through Germany, and the A-bomb gets finished.

  That isn't what Roosevelt wanted,he was a fellow traveller.

I like the cut of your gib.

I think the best course would have been to cut the rail stock and locomotives out of lend lease.  That would have curtailed Soviet ability to mass for the push beyond their own border.  After that use the avgas supply as a fine tuner.

So, basically skinhead propaganda.

Patton was outspoken about the need to fight the Commies.  The OSS killed Patton for the commies in Washington D.C.

Enjoy. It may be satire, but the fact of the matter, it's all true.

Patton was already put out to pasture by moving him to the head of Fifteenth Army, made up entirely of historians. He was a non-entity so far as the Army was concerned at that point, driven home by the fact that he wasn't going to the Pacific, and he knew it. Besides, Ma and Pa Kettle weren't going to be swayed to fight the Russians, our "allies", regardless of what sabers were rattled. Our economy was stretched to the breaking point and they just wanted their sons and husbands home.

cracks me up each time I hear that