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Posted: 8/30/2024 11:19:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LV1976: I see that you're still relying on conjecture and feelings to try to support your claims. And yes, I have dropped my not so expensive LPVO on concrete. I have also dropped my non-military grade Aimpoint CompC3. Both held zero. So I have actual experience with this. Do you want to keep telling everyone here what you think you know? Because every post you have made sounds like you're some kid with an airsoft setup that just wandered into the room. He has shown to have 0 experience with lpvo much less with quality lpvo or actual hard use much less in military service or combat. He just reads too much bs and thinks it applies and he spreads it like gospel with no real facts. He needs to go back to reddit where he can pretend to know it all and people will praise him.. Here he has shown to be a troll or just someone who should be ignored.. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 8/30/2024 2:40:58 PM EDT
[#2]
I would assume some are more durable than others, but the question is...what are you doing that would require it to be "combat ready"?
Is it gun falls of a table and keeps zero VS gun slides down a mountain side or gets tossed from a vehicle that hit IED and holds zero? I know my threat level is more of the "Fuck, my gun fell over on its side on cement, oh no,.....is the cerokote scratched?!?!?!"  |
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Posted: 8/30/2024 5:48:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? I’ve had that happen numerous times. It’s never been an issue with high quality optics. |
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Posted: 8/30/2024 6:43:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JohnDough]
[#4]
I don't think there is any issue with quality .mil tested and issued LPVOs that you would not also see with other types of optics. I've seen tables full of deadlined Aimpoints posted here and other places, for example. OP comments in the OP that they have "always used iron sights" and then wants to disparage LPVO reticles, sans power, in transitional lighting, and then wants to talk up ACOGs in transitional lighting, gets a good laugh from me. Real world use that could lead to these statements appears to be lower than the odds of even quality optics failure.
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Posted: 8/30/2024 7:01:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Cope. If illumination doesn't matter then why do all new LPVOs come with it? Do you plan on only shooting in ideal sunlight conditions? And you think that is a "duty rated" optic? Get real. Lpvos typically have etched reticles. No battery needed. I have 3 that I use for matches and in then deep woods and hollers out here. 0 issues. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/30/2024 9:50:55 PM EDT
[#6]
LPVO’s are here to stay, they have been what everyone uses in competition for nearly two decades and guys, myself included, have been buying their own to put on their work guns. You get what you pay for with a scope, my VCOG 1-8 has been great for 4 years. It hasn’t been to combat but it’s been to a bunch of training. Any LPVO made by Trijicon, NF, Steiner, Leupold, and Khales are optics I would trust. The razor is great glass but I have seen a lot break dues to the wire reticle and the gen 2 turrets. Vortex has a good warranty but their warranty department stays busy. That being said for a combat optic I would also suggest a good mount like Badger Condition one, Geissele, or Larue. The argument against LPVO’s is because there is a huge range of optics, some great some not. Every optic is a trade off but I used LPVO’s before the military and I’ll use them long after I’m out.
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USA
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Posted: 8/30/2024 9:55:04 PM EDT
[#7]
Get a leupold CQT
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Posted: 8/31/2024 10:51:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DOG556: Get a leupold CQT Been a long time since I even saw one of those. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 5:15:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Originally Posted By LV1976: So you're not stating fact, just your opinion or impression of what may or may not be true of LPVOs. I was pretty sure everyone here knew you were just making that up, thanks for confiming it. Like I said, this is a tech forum, not GD where you just pull stuff out of your ass. Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? I try not to drop things too often since I do have functioning opposable thumbs, but thus far I’ve still managed to drop both a 1-8 Trijicon and 1-6 Razor. Both right in the objective. It was fine. Anyway, I’d worry any time I dropped any optic. Dunno what the LPVO part has to do with that. They’re not cheap, or at least not a lot of what I have is cheap. Even when I was issued optics I winced when I bopped them on shit. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 5:20:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Before long a 1-n optic will be the issued optic of most every Joe, including across the modern industrialized world. We are only in the beginning of that.
That statement is true whether or not I like LPVOs. Dunno why we have to cheer or boo entire categories of optics. That’s a weird category of fanboyism I don’t care to venture into. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 5:44:30 PM EDT
[#11]
doesn't work with nvg. only war in the daytime and you're fine. I am not trying to scaffold 18 optics to my rifle. ill pass.
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Posted: 8/31/2024 5:50:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: doesn't work with nvg. only war in the daytime and you're fine. I am not trying to scaffold 18 optics to my rifle. ill pass. That is incorrect.. there are plenty of clip on night vision for scopes. Hell even a pvs 14 can be used if needed though that is not ideal.. then you have laser aiming devices you can use or even mount a micro red dot on top. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 6:03:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: doesn't work with nvg. only war in the daytime and you're fine. I am not trying to scaffold 18 optics to my rifle. ill pass. wut |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 6:04:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: doesn't work with nvg. only war in the daytime and you're fine. I am not trying to scaffold 18 optics to my rifle. ill pass. 18? How about 2, tops. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 6:24:31 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LV1976: 18? How about 2, tops. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 6:31:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: have at it. I am not into that. I run eotech and or 1-2X prism optics that work with nvg. I own a LPVO but its on my larue stealth that is the last gun I would take into battle. Tell me you don't know wtf you are talking about without saying it out loud.. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 7:21:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Where am I supposed to get large volumes of data on LPVOs in military service when they've only been adopted for a couple years at most in the USA? . 15 or so years of significant adoption/issue in US SOF. Currently in common use/issue in US SOF. Yes, combat ready LPVOs exist, and you’d have to be very ignorant to think otherwise. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 7:30:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: have at it. I am not into that. I run eotech and or 1-2X prism optics that work with nvg. I own a LPVO but its on my larue stealth that is the last gun I would take into battle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: Originally Posted By LV1976: 18? How about 2, tops. You’re missing out. Piggyback RDS are great, even outside the NVG argument. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 8:51:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duck_Hunt]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: Before long a 1-n optic will be the issued optic of most every Joe, including across the modern industrialized world. We are only in the beginning of that. That statement is true whether or not I like LPVOs. Dunno why we have to cheer or boo entire categories of optics. That’s a weird category of fanboyism I don’t care to venture into. Well.. they’ve been around for over two decades now. What’s the rush lol. |
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FRA
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Posted: 8/31/2024 9:11:12 PM EDT
[#20]
I have vortex defender flip caps on my scope. If I drop the rifle on the scope hopefully they will take som of the shock.
I will probably top mount a T2 between the turret and ockular lens as back up/CQB/"sacrificial" dot. With the T2 mounted on the scope mount and not the tube the impact should not affect the scope in the same way as a direct impact on the scope would. And the T2 is a tank so hopefully it will survive. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 8/31/2024 10:03:38 PM EDT
[#21]
LPVOs broadly speaking are not as rugged as some other options, but good ones should hold up well enough.
A well built scope mount with a top dot, or a QD scope mount with buis is not a bad idea. No red dot is going to give you a nice 8x. |
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Posted: 8/31/2024 10:52:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By p51dee: LPVOs broadly speaking are not as rugged as some other options, but good ones should hold up well enough. A well built scope mount with a top dot, or a QD scope mount with buis is not a bad idea. No red dot is going to give you a nice 8x. Neither will most 1-8 LPVOs
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Posted: 9/1/2024 6:24:29 AM EDT
[#23]
I have a delta Stryker 1-6, hardly the pinnacle of lpvo’s, but not a $150 bushnell either. I have never intentionally abused the optic or rifle it’s mounted on but I do not go out of my way to make sure they don’t get scratched and i don’t baby them. They get shot quite a bit. It gets crammed into my elite survival systems bag, typically along with another rifle (single rifle bag) and is most always on the bottom of various other bags and equipment when I want to shoot farther than the 50 yards I have available at my house. Gets banged around shooting drills and from barricades, etc. I’ve never dropped it but have knocked it over from resting on the buttstock more than a couple of times. I’ve never had to re zero it for anything other than removing it from the rifle, sometimes if I want to test hand loads I’ll take it off and put my gen 2 razor 4.5-27 on. This makes me confident that the lpvo’s that are geared towards mil use, are perfectly capable of the job
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Posted: 9/1/2024 7:26:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By No1MAXIMUS: I have vortex defender flip caps on my scope. If I drop the rifle on the scope hopefully they will take som of the shock. I will probably top mount a T2 between the turret and ockular lens as back up/CQB/"sacrificial" dot. With the T2 mounted on the scope mount and not the tube the impact should not affect the scope in the same way as a direct impact on the scope would. And the T2 is a tank so hopefully it will survive. Your top dot is potentially going to shift. Ring halves should not "be solid", which means it the tube is deformed, anything mounted to the top ring could shift. The tube of the scope is still the main source of zero retention for this item. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2024 9:48:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: Neither will most 1-8 LPVOs 
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MP, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2024 1:03:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: Your top dot is potentially going to shift. Ring halves should not "be solid", which means it the tube is deformed, anything mounted to the top ring could shift. The tube of the scope is still the main source of zero retention for this item. This. I prefer offset red dots on a general purpose carbine. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 9/1/2024 1:04:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: Neither will most 1-8 LPVOs Well played. In all seriousness, I personally keep my 1-8s around 5.5 - 6x as it’s plenty of magnification and gives a much more forgiving eyebox and exit pupil. |
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Posted: 9/1/2024 1:28:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mini14jac]
[#28]
I’ve currently got a Leupold VX Freedom with a 1” tube on my AR.
I’ve had a few Leupolds and have come to trust them. I don’t hunt but in similar discussions before, several hunters have commented on the abuse that they expect their scopes to withstand. Leupold scopes always get high marks. I have seen several pictures from over 20 years ago of Spec Ops guys with Vortex Razors on their ARs. So I would guess that the answer to your question is “yes”. |
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Posted: 9/1/2024 4:11:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doty_soty: Neither will most 1-8 LPVOs  Attached FileAnother comparison no one likes to talk about with ACOG’s too. Even at the same magnification an ACOG looks better than about any LPVO I’ve looked through. Light transmission matters, and a 1-8 or 1-10 LPVO is about as bad as it gets. |
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Posted: 9/1/2024 4:35:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/giphy-359.gif Another comparison no one likes to talk about with ACOG’s too. Even at the same magnification an ACOG looks better than about any LPVO I’ve looked through. Light transmission matters, and a 1-8 or 1-10 LPVO is about as bad as it gets. I’m not a fan of 1-8/10’s for general use. Like at all. |
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Posted: 9/1/2024 4:36:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: I’m not a fan of 1-8/10’s for general use. Like at all. I am using a 1-8 atacr on two of my builds.. I really like them. I sold my razor gen iii to buy the second atacr. Was not a big fan of the razor. |
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Posted: 9/1/2024 5:35:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1168RGR]
[#32]
For general use (the LPVO’s strength) I like the 1-6 Razor more than the 1-10. Then again, I also like the 1-6 VCOG more than the 1-8x. I think 4 to 6 x’s on the top end is the sweet spot for LPVOs.
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FRA
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Posted: 9/1/2024 8:29:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Hopefully the top mounted red dot will save the ockular Bell from getting bent. If the red dot shifts I can zero it to my scope and get a usable zero for Short distances.
My Spuhr mount will keep the tube straight. I prefer my red dot to be top mounted for larger field of view. With a side mounted dot the scope will be blocking som of the FOV. |
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Posted: 9/2/2024 12:19:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: I've been through 3 comp m5's in the last 3 years Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: Originally Posted By John-in-austin: Mine lasted a hell of a lot longer than the issued Aimpoint did. I've been through 3 comp m5's in the last 3 years Just get a T2 and be done with the M5 series 
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2024 1:08:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: Your top dot is potentially going to shift. Ring halves should not "be solid", which means it the tube is deformed, anything mounted to the top ring could shift. The tube of the scope is still the main source of zero retention for this item. Actually, the rings will help reinforce the tube and if the piggyback mrds is attached via a top ring half there should be very little shift. If the piggyback mrds is attached via a separate set of ring halves it might be more prone to shift. |
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Posted: 9/2/2024 3:34:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Actually, the rings will help reinforce the tube and if the piggyback mrds is attached via a top ring half there should be very little shift. If the piggyback mrds is attached via a separate set of ring halves it might be more prone to shift. The top half of the rings are fully supported BY the tube. Impact to the top ring half (or mrd mounted thereon) can theoretically deform the scope as that is the only thing supporting the ring top half. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2024 9:28:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: The top half of the rings are fully supported BY the tube. Impact to the top ring half (or mrd mounted thereon) can theoretically deform the scope as that is the only thing supporting the ring top half. It would take one hell of a strategic "impact", for one. All rings are not created equal, and a circlular metal tube wrapped in a cylindrical ring is a lot tougher that you give credit. It is a non-concern in "reality" |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2024 10:49:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Nice thing about a lvpo is the ability to stuff a rh25 l/small clip on in front of it. An American made version should be standard load out for our boys. Ya you could do it with a acog, but then you are already zoomed in from the gitgo instead of being close to 1x.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 9/2/2024 4:53:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Stukas87]
[#39]
During the 2003 invasion of Iraq I tripped and fell on concrete Aimpoint lost zero.
LPVOs have been a thing since 2003, regular Army purchased some Trijicon Accupoints and issued them out. LPVOs have been a thing with Army SF at least 2012. With guys using their own purchased ones. Id say the VCOG I used in 2015 more robust than any red dot I have used, I fell numerous times it held zero. While they do have illume, I never turned my on for daytime ops. Yes Ive seen everything from Vortex Viper PST being used to every high-end brand you can think of in the hands of SF during my time. (Yes the PSTs held up). The question is not, are LPVOs a thing? It's are single optic carbines still a thing? And the answer is no. Last few years most Spec Ops running dual optics LPVO with a red dot. |
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Posted: 9/2/2024 7:41:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stukas87: During the 2003 invasion of Iraq I tripped and fell on concrete Aimpoint lost zero. LPVOs have been a thing since 2003, regular Army purchased some Trijicon Accupoints and issued them out. LPVOs have been a thing with Army SF at least 2012. With guys using their own purchased ones. Id say the VCOG I used in 2015 more robust than any red dot I have used, I fell numerous times it held zero. While they do have illume, I never turned my on for daytime ops. Yes Ive seen everything from Vortex Viper PST being used to every high-end brand you can think of in the hands of SF during my time. (Yes the PSTs held up). The question is not, are LPVOs a thing? It's are single optic carbines still a thing? And the answer is no. Last few years most Spec Ops running dual optics LPVO with a red dot. Asked and answered. |
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ID, USA
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Posted: 9/3/2024 9:11:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HawkinsID]
[#41]
The question is not, are LPVOs a thing?
It's are single optic carbines still a thing? And the answer is no. Last few years most Spec Ops running dual optics LPVO with a red dot. Bingo. This is the real issue. You need instant 1X. But, an LPVO with a red dot is not the best choice. LPVOs have crappy eyeboxes and poor low light performance at higher magnification. Since it is an established fact that you need two optics, choose a MPVO and a red dot or an ACOG and a red dot. You will have better performance and a better eyebox. The military had it right with the ACOG and RMR. But, they just had to ape the gamer crowd and go to an LPVO. You have a choice. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 9:27:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: It would take one hell of a strategic "impact", for one. All rings are not created equal, and a circlular metal tube wrapped in a cylindrical ring is a lot tougher that you give credit. It is a non-concern in "reality" I'm not saying it's likely, just that the scope is what takes that impact. This is a small part of why I use Nightforce. Thicc tube. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 10:29:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: hoody2shoez]
[#43]
*edit*
Not worth it. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 11:16:06 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HawkinsID: The question is not, are LPVOs a thing? It's are single optic carbines still a thing? And the answer is no. Last few years most Spec Ops running dual optics LPVO with a red dot. Bingo. This is the real issue. You need instant 1X. But, an LPVO with a red dot is not the best choice. LPVOs have crappy eyeboxes and poor low light performance at higher magnification. Since it is an established fact that you need two optics, choose a MPVO and a red dot or an ACOG and a red dot. You will have better performance and a better eyebox. The military had it right with the ACOG and RMR. But, they just had to ape the gamer crowd and go to an LPVO. You have a choice. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 11:57:36 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By hoody2shoez: *edit* Not worth it. lol. You were right, though. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 6:09:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tarheel7734: That is incorrect.. there are plenty of clip on night vision for scopes. Hell even a pvs 14 can be used if needed though that is not ideal.. then you have laser aiming devices you can use or even mount a micro red dot on top. The PVS-14 actually comes with a weapon mount in the issue bag, we were using them as CNVDs back in 2006. |
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Posted: 9/3/2024 6:17:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#47]
Anyone who has actually been to combat long enough can tell you stories of just about any weapon optic failing. I've seen dozens of Comps and ACOGs trashed in real world use. The vast majority of failures of equipment is typically not random falls on concrete, its banging around the inside of military vehicles with hard metal surfaces for months on end. Comps love to break their knobs off, ACOGs tend to break at the adjustment gears, but I've seen the glass shatter too.
With that said, my last three deployments I used an LPVO. Elcan Spectre, then Vortex Razor, then ATACR. I had no issue with any of them. I don't think I ever turned on the illumination once on any of them, outside of just range use. It was much better knowing I didn't even need batteries versus my first deployment as a private and having to take my eotech off because my COP didn't get batteries in resupply for a few months. The only Vortex Razor I have seen break was when an unqualified armorer torqued it down to a ridiculous amount and the vertical adjustment was bound. We got it replaced by vortex, that was one out of probably 30 in our arms room right now. I've yet to see an ATACR break. My last trip.  
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Posted: 9/3/2024 7:06:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Anyone who has actually been to combat long enough can tell you stories of just about any weapon optic failing. I've seen dozens of Comps and ACOGs trashed in real world use. The vast majority of failures of equipment is typically not random falls on concrete, its banging around the inside of military vehicles with hard metal surfaces for months on end. Comps love to break their knobs off, ACOGs tend to break at the adjustment gears, but I've seen the glass shatter too. With that said, my last three deployments I used an LPVO. Elcan Spectre, then Vortex Razor, then ATACR. I had no issue with any of them. I don't think I ever turned on the illumination once on any of them, outside of just range use. It was much better knowing I didn't even need batteries versus my first deployment as a private and having to take my eotech off because my COP didn't get batteries in resupply for a few months. The only Vortex Razor I have seen break was when an unqualified armorer torqued it down to a ridiculous amount and the vertical adjustment was bound. We got it replaced by vortex, that was one out of probably 30 in our arms room right now. I've yet to see an ATACR break. My last trip. https://i.imgur.com/uJd0B4V.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FOjMnZx.jpg But that's not possible! Instant 1x is needed or you WILL die |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 9/3/2024 7:29:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JohnDough: I'm not saying it's likely, just that the scope is what takes that impact. This is a small part of why I use Nightforce. Thicc tube. Well, yea that Murphy guy figures out a way to F anything up that is F'able doesn't he 
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SD, USA
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Posted: 9/3/2024 11:16:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Anyone who has actually been to combat long enough can tell you stories of just about any weapon optic failing. I've seen dozens of Comps and ACOGs trashed in real world use. The vast majority of failures of equipment is typically not random falls on concrete, its banging around the inside of military vehicles with hard metal surfaces for months on end. Comps love to break their knobs off, ACOGs tend to break at the adjustment gears, but I've seen the glass shatter too. With that said, my last three deployments I used an LPVO. Elcan Spectre, then Vortex Razor, then ATACR. I had no issue with any of them. I don't think I ever turned on the illumination once on any of them, outside of just range use. It was much better knowing I didn't even need batteries versus my first deployment as a private and having to take my eotech off because my COP didn't get batteries in resupply for a few months. The only Vortex Razor I have seen break was when an unqualified armorer torqued it down to a ridiculous amount and the vertical adjustment was bound. We got it replaced by vortex, that was one out of probably 30 in our arms room right now. I've yet to see an ATACR break. My last trip. https://i.imgur.com/uJd0B4V.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FOjMnZx.jpg Why is your optic half mounted to your handguard? |
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