It's so strange you're having these issues.  Staying on this thread to see how it works out.

I was still having issues with the wad height/stack height with the Remington STS hulls, Titewad powder, and the Claybuster 3/4 ounce wad….such that the crimps still looked like poop.  

So I took a closer look at the paper insert of reloading recipes that Claybuster includes inside the bag of wads.  
There was a recipe for Winchester AAHS hulls and Red Dot powder.  So I tried cranking out some of those with the pre-crimp die and the final crimp die still at the STS hull “settings”.  After about the 3rd buckled Winchester AAHS hull, I made some adjustments….loosened or raised the final crimp die….a bunch of 1/4 turns.  Then I tried cranking out a few more shells.  And now all the crimps had 1/8” holes in the middle.

Each shell went full on “salt shaker” as it rolled down the ramp and into the akro bin.

As a shotgun reloader, that is absolutely THEEE last sound you want to hear while making shells:  lead pellets hitting plastic and rolling around.  

So then I thought “Maybe my final crimp die is FUBAR’ed???"

I removed it which is no easy feat.  That die must  have 1” by 64 threads per inch.  I am not kidding.  A 12 point 7/8ths box end wrench wasn’t cutting it.  I removed the hull feeder’s clear plastic drop tube to give me more room.   It was taking way too long, so I started wondering if I had any ratchets handy.  I found a 7/8ths socket…1/2” drive.  The only ratchet I could find was like 18” long.  Trying to fit the ratchet and the socket on the final crimp die was a NO GO! because the shot dispenser’s bell crank assembly was in the way.  So I had to charge a hull with powder, then insert a wad, and bring the handle all the way down to lift the shot dispenser up.***.

Finally I was able to get the socket and ratchet onto the final crimp die.  After about one thousand quarter turns later, the die came out of the toolhead.  The toolhead has its own built in “ny-lock” for the dies, so there was absolutely NO turning dies by hand.

Here is what the final crimp die looks like:

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I referred back to this pic in the owner’s manual:

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So Ii set up the central crimp closer “punch” to those dimensions.  Then I used a silver paint marker to draw a line around the die at that 1.600” mark.  I used the stem end of my digital calipers to get that measurement.

Then I gingerly re-installed the die.  I say gingerly because with such fine threading, it would be really easy to cross thread it.  Then I would really be screwed.

So I got it threaded down to that silver painted line.  I tried cranking out some shells….well…dummies actually… no live primers yet.  It was back to buckling shells.  About 24 quarter turns counter clockwise it stopped buckling shells.  But, of course, the crimps were still over the place.

Because the wad height/stack height varied so much.

In fact this is the last shell I tried to crank out last night:

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There is no way in heck that crimp is ever going to close.

I think the general consensus that I have gathered from the Shotgun World Forum is that you need 0.400” from the top of the wad petal to the top of the hull to get a good crimp.

EDIT:  all those green STS hulls that you see in the background are the ones I caught by eye with their wads set too deep.  I just dumped the shot right back into the shot bucket.  At some later time, I’ll use needle nose pliers to pull the wads and then dump the powder.

From my previous post ^^^^

The **** means I learned something new last night.

Since everything is so cramped on the SL900….

AND….

the shot dispenser actually has to raise or lift up as the shot bar cycles….

The corner of the shot dispenser is right under the “cone” or “funnel” of the powder measure.

If you do NOT have a hull being charged with powder in station #2, the shot dispenser hits the powder measure.

The upward movement of the shot dispenser and thus the shot bar travel and thus the wad height placement is impeded by the powder measure.

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So the powder measure has to be getting raised up by charging a hull at the same time it is trying to “seat” a wad and drop shot.

EDIT:  I did remove the powder charging / hull belling die last night.  Again, 1” X about a gazillion threads to the inch.  At least this one I was able to twist out by hand… even with the built in “ny-lock”

Then I threaded the powder charging die back in about half way and tried charging some hulls.  That was just to double check that the powder bar was fully shuttling back and forth. I almost  ran out length on the powder fail safe rod I had to screw that blue plastic wingnut down so far.

I shoved a cardboard wedge into the shot dispenser to hold it in the up position.

It does now look like there is some clearance or a gap between the shot dispenser and the powder measure “funnel”..

EDIT #2:  the crimps were still looking bad with the grey Winchester AAHS hulls that I removed that smooth crimp and re-installed the 8 point crimp starter.  That helped.  A little.

I PM’ed/IM’ed a dude on another forum who was having the exact same TOWG issue.

I normally don’t do this, but he replied back with this:

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Well….that’s the thing.  I don’t have to save up any pennies.  And I will just leave it at that.

I have been researching this issue with the Dillon for the past month or two.

I guess you make about person #11 that I know about in these past two months who have ditched the Dillon and bought a Spolar.

You know “aircooledracer” from the BE forums?

He always starts his posts with “Hello: ….  “. And ends them with “….  Eric” .

A’yup, ditched the Dillon,  Bought a Spolar.  

In fact, he must have had the same issue to end up with two swing arms:

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I am reminded of the quote by Ruskin on price:

There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

And then Ruskin has another quote on quality:

Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives, the cumulative experience of many masters of craftsmanship. Quality also marks the search for an ideal after necessity has been satisfied and mere usefulness achieved.

For the past few years now, the Spolar booth has been empty st the Grand.

I think I first saw one in operation there back about 2010.  It was a hydraulically powered unit.  And the blonde operating it had her hands freed up so she could insert hulls and wads as she used her feet to work the pedals.

It was like magic…. Hearing the clunk of the shells fall through the table top and into the drawer below.

It would be nice if they would return to the Grand this year.

All of economics is based on what a reasonable person or a rational person would do.  Which I think is a polite way of saying 90% of people are cheap bastards who are going to pick the least expensive option.  

So the least expensive option for me, for now is to buy a 3/4 ounce bar for my Mec 9000 and see if it can crank out some good looking  3/4 ounce loads with either the metallic green STS’s and Titewad and/or grey Winchester AAHS’s with Red Dot.

And then resetting the Dillon SL900 back to 9/8ths trap loads with the red Winchester AAHS’s and what remaining Clays powder I have.  I guess I could start shooting doubles trap.

Seconded, however though I’ll humbly submit that there’s a whole boatload of good gouge out there past the aforementioned.  

Queried DF a while back (thx for the gouge DF) and it was my first book. Am close to having (and read) everything out there I could possible find. Am putting up great product(s) these days.  Am looking to give back -

Pls DM w/any immediate questions.

Don’t post too often but here soon I’ll drop a thread to what I’m messin’ with.   (Lead and steel only thus far).

Cheers Gents

My brother from another mother.

(Will stay on topic!)

I finally made it to the skeet range:

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But I forgot my prescription shooting glasses at home.





I wasn’t having much luck breaking clays today, so I went to the patterning board:

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From 22 paces.

Since skeet is supposed to be a shorter range game….shorter than trap anyway.

Looks like a good 50/50 pattern to me.

Thanks!

I couldn’t hit anything with my 20 gauge yesterday either.

Over 30 years ago, I couldn “t pass the depth perception test of my grad physical until my prescription glasses came in.


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Those dang floating doughnuts!

I've never seen a test like that.   Huh...

You tell the med tech giving you the test which doughnut sticks out or appears to be floating above the other doughnuts.

Fast forward to the 3:30 mark:

That makes sense.

Especially for trying to figure out how many ohms a resistor is:

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I am half tempted to pick up flying again.  I ASSume I would see something like that floating doughnut test during a class 3 physical.

When the Grand comes around this year, there is a Dr. Rively from Pennsylvania who sets up an optometry “shop” there.  He does prescription Randolph Engineering glasses:

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He grinds them there at the Grand, and he can color them to whatever tint.  He said it is very similar to coloring Easter eggs.

He was super nice and we went over to the pistol berms and he had me wear a set of these:

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While I aimed my pistol at a brown cardboard USPSA target, he did the whole “which is better, 1 or 2?” spiel.

Then he had a lens tint sample thing that was on a stick that he held in front of the fancy glasses pictured above.  I picked out a brown-ish tint because it made the targets jump out from the brown earthen berms.

I have two sets of glasses from him….the browns  with both lenses having my distance correction


and some yellows with just the left (non-dominant eye) with the distance correction….for shooting handguns indoors, mostly..

There is one other eye doc who shows up to the Grand, but I can’t remember his name.  I hear Pilla glasses are all the rage now with the hard core trap and skeet shooters.  So I am wondering if this other eye doc specializes in Pilla instead of Randolph Engineering.

Back more on topic….

I met up with a lawyer friend yesterday and just kind of in passing  metioned I used to be like a one gun a month buyer, but now it has turned into a one 8 pounder of powder per month habit instead.  My lawyer friend went on to say he gave up on reloading because stuff is so hard to find now, and expensive when you do find it.

Then I told him I really liked Clays powder, but that plant in Canada is now too busy cranking out powder for 155mm Howitzers for Ukraine.



EDIT: I am wondering what powder to go to for ounce and an eighth trap loads once I run out of Clays.

I was diagnosed as color blind, however I was able to read and see resistor color codes.

Funny thing was it didn't matter because when the company switched to surface mount, the resistors had their values printed on them (102=1k)

I have 4 pounds of Green Dot that the wife picked up for by accident a few years ago when I wanted Blue Dot.
With all the components I received last week I have been cranking out 1.25 oz/ figure 8 wad/ 19 grains of Green Dot/ Win 209 in a Remington hull.
Nice shooting at around 1,250 fps and patterns well.

An ounce and a quarter?

Is this for trap?

Or live birds?

I headed back out today to shoot some more skeet.

It is a gorgeous day today:

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And I did remember to bring my prescription shooting glasses.

Afterwards I went over to the patterning board with my 20ga.

Here is a factory Winchester AA shell, 7/8ths of an ounce with #9’s:

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Then here is one of my reloads with 7/8ths of #8’s:

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About 22 steps away, bottom barrel, skeet choke tube

Sorry about that, 1 1/8 oz
Target and dove loads, though I mostly use 20ga.
Buddies son is getting into reloading and wants to run some for his Winchester.

Okay, that makes more sense.

I had posted those pics on the Shotgun World Forums  of my 20 gauge patterns at 22 paces.

Somebody commented that this:

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looked like a really tight or dense pattern for a skeet choke tube at 22 yards.

I will have to see what I have in my choke tube collection from Briley.  I think they sold me a cylinder choke.

Anyways….that led me down a rabbit hole of:

A.  Windjammer wads

and

B.  Spred-R shotgun shells

The Windjammer wads have 8 petals instead of the usual 4.  The theory being that the 8 petals open up sooner and cause the pattern to be wider.

It looks like you can still buy Spred-R tacks to go into your reloads:

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I've never used either of those, but would like to see your results if you do.

The consensus I get from SGW is it is either hot or cold about the Windjammers.  People either love them and think they are the greatest thing sliced bread.  Or people hate them.  It seems like there are no people in the middle.

I sent an email to Briley to ask about what they thought about those two patterns.

It is just two pics, so it is not much to go by.

EDIT:  I also called and left a message with Polywad.  There have been a few recent threads  on SGW that are like “Is Polywad still in business?”

I tried calling Polywad again.

I got their answering machine again.

And I did a little more searching at SGW and TS.

Yep! Sounds like Polywad went out of business:

https://polywad.com/

Then I tried their “email” via their contact us page.



As far as the WindJammers go, I have been told that because they have eight petals, the petals are skinnier.

And skinny enough to fit up inside the shot drop tube and get stuck.

Of course, if the shot bar is in such a position, then maybe half the shot drops inside the wad.  The other half of the payload is stuck between the wad and the hull.

AAAAAHHHHH YYYEEEAAAHHH!!



Look at what a member  at the local club gave me this morning:

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I am going to try to find a local plastics place that can duplicate them.

These are meant for 12 gauge.

I wouldn't expect a doable price having those molded for you. They need to make a mold and that will be at least $5k-20k depending on number of cavities in the mold. Setup for each run will cost and then there's a minimum cost per run. Cost breaks are prototype, 1k, 5k, 10k per run typically.  

There are online offshore options that are available but even those aren't cheap.

Might try having them printed. Upfront cost is less but cost per unit is higher. Need to figure how many of these you plan on using.

Machining them would be possible but not cost effective either.

Try those you have and see if you even want to go down this hole.... it sounds deep.

One alternative that I heard about this weekend was in a normal wad, dump in a 1/4 ounce of shot, then insert a thin cardboard or fiber disc (like an overshot card) pour in another 1/4 ounce of shot, add another thin disc, another 1/4 ounce of shot , another disc, then finally another quarter ounce of shot.

It would be tedious / time consuming to load.  

A guy on another forum is looking to 3D print them.

Ballistic Products sells a spreader insert.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/X-Stream-spreader-insert-

Yeah, I have seen those, but I have heard they are kind of a pain to reload.

I made it down to the Shooting Complex today.  The AIM shoot is still going on.  It is the kids’s shoot prior to the Grand.  A lot of the vendor booths were open including Mec.  The gentleman there was nice enough to give me some “gouge” on setting up my Mec 9000GN in 12 gauge for 3/4 ounce wads.  

I made it a point to stop by the shellhouse to check out their prices on factory shells:

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And I stopped by Mike Graf’s way down on the east end.  

He has powder, shotgun primers, wads, and shot:

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But buying an 8 pounder of powder comes with stipulations:

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Then I had to go look at shotguns:

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That I shouldn’t buy.

I did learn one neat thing today….Kolar shotguns are made here in the States….Racine, Wisconsin.

Lastly, I had to peek into the dumpsters:

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They will be overflowing in a few days.

The shellhouse guys said their .410 and 28 gauge ammo was all Winchester and $150 a flat.  I didn’t actually get to see any of it, so I don’t know if they were double A’s???

Uh....

When I was shooting clays and hunting with collectible SxSs from the 1800s and early 1900s that I was unwilling to alter the chokes, or add choke tubes I spent a lot of time working up loads to improve and alter the patterns.

I had loads that would tighten the patterns in my Cylinder Choked barrels and loosen the patterns in my Full Choke barrels.

This is not the entry level stuff OP is asking about, but there is just as much to shotshell loading as there is for centerfire rifle and pistol cartridges.

EDIT:  Look at number of pages before replying.....

Pinto beans.
One on top of the shot will open patterns.

One (or two) under the shot to reduce shot load.  Ex: Using a 7/8oz wad for a 3/4oz  shot load.
I used to regularly shoot 3/4oz out of a 12ga.
At 1100fps they will pattern better/tighter than you might expect.

I used them in a 12 gauge load when I was doing a lotta dove hunting, using a fixed choke Mossberg 500.

Just drop them into the wad and drop your normal shot charge. Might have to shake it or tap the hull to settle the shot a bit.

I went back to the Grand yesterday.

I bought an 8 pounder of  Red Dot and a case of these wads:

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That’s for 1 ounce and an eighth.

Kevin from DownRange wads was there yesterday, so he was really helpful and had lots of advice.

He recommended using a Remington “gun club” type hull.

So this is the data from Alliant website:

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The DRHF8 is just the 8 petal version of the DRF8, so use the same data.

I had to ask Mike and  Kevin if they had any DRA12 wads.  Ha, ha!  LOL!  That got Kevin’s attention, so he asked “What do you want to use those for?”

I said, “Buckshot in a Winchester AA hull.”

So that really got the conversation started.  Kevin knows his stuff.

Anyone reload any of the Mini shells?

Nope, not me.

But I did reload some full size shells tonight.

I switched back to the Mec 9000GN tonight.

I went with Remington STS’s, about 16.7 grains of Red Dot, Cheddite primers, and these Down Range wads:

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They are a windjammer style, and I learned there is a technique to inserting them into or onto the Mec.

I went with 9/8ths of my homemade shot.

The Mec sure does put a nice crimp on them:

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That sharp crease or “rollover” reminds me of how Rangers used to do their patrol caps:

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EDIT:  yeah, I see my “whoops”.  I am winding down….time to call it night.

"Benchrest" Shotguns  

I bought a used Spolar this morning.  It is currently set up for 20 gauge, but also came with everything to switch it over ti 12 gauge:

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The guy I bought it off of had 3 Spolars.

One machine on another bench was set up for .410 and was still manually operated.

Then the other machine was in 12 gauge set on the Spolar table/bench.  It had hydraulics, so he could keep his hands free to insert hulls and wads.  His right foot was on the petal for the hydraulics.

I happened to snap a pic of its “odometer reading”:

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I think he said he got that in an estate sale.  I am ASSuming there is a way to reset it back to zero, so I don’t know if it is 31,000 shells made total.  Or if he reset it once he got it to his house.

The .410 machine had the black Spolar cover on, so I never got go see the odometer.

The third machine was sitting on his tailgate when I pulled into the driveway.

We took the powder and shot bottles off it, so I could load it in my car.

He just got back from a prairie dog shoot in Colorado, so he showed his rifle::  

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.204 Ackley Improved.

I just an IDPA match this morning.  Then I started on mounting the Spolar.

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I added some plywood spacers so I wouldn’t have to use a hole saw for the loaded shell chute.  I also didn’t want to drill a hole through the top of my tool box.  Besides the top drawer is very shallow.

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My thought process being that I would get a shallow cardboard box or plastic tray to fit under there to catch the loaded shells.

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“….but Spolar Gold number  0331 is mine….”




The guy I bought it off of said P/W powder/shot bushings will fit in the bar.