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Posted: 7/14/2024 7:33:26 PM EDT
[#1]
You don’t need to tell me anything as I’ve got a great load for the 77 TMK, it just took a little more work than I expected.
I think there are other bullets that are easier to find accurate loads with, and most here will agree with me. I’d bet $5 he finds some great loads with the 69 and 52 SMK without trying very hard! -ZA Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Zhukov: The 68 stuff you have MIGHT be BHA....... ? At one time (and maybe stiil do) they sold loaded 68 ammo as one of their "Blue box" offerings. Tx: There are alot of good tests for both bullets posted online, including some great ones by Molon. Here's a test I posted of other ammo but the "validation groups" are from 77 TMK and SMK respectively. (So look at the 1st two groups in the imgur photos). https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/200yd-Groups-Velocities-of-Winchester-62OT-mk318-64-GD-and-others-/16-744061/?page=1&anc=bottom#bottom But I'll post some more groups down below........... Za206: Sir: I don't know what to tell you.......... When the TMK's came out I rapidly found great groups by following Sierras advice- load them like the SMK's. I'm sorry............. just load them to mag length (2.25) and get them going about 2750 -20" barrel and be done. They aren't a complicated bullet, just do that and be done with this. If you aren't getting good groups with that............ it's you or the barrel. Various 77TMK 200yd groups here: https://imgur.com/a/BpZ0Uwi Various 77SMK 200yd groups here: PS last one is factory mk262 https://imgur.com/a/XT6Xazp |
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Posted: 7/14/2024 8:53:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote History Originally Posted By TGH456E:Zhukov: The 68 stuff you have MIGHT be BHA....... ? At one time (and maybe stiil do) they sold loaded 68 ammo as one of their "Blue box" offerings. You know - that might be it! It's weird that I have zero memory of how I got it. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/14/2024 10:02:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#3]
I'd say start with 77 SMK. Don't necessarily buy a bazillion of them but do start there.
They will provide you with a performance benchmark. If you are unhappy with their price, try some of the others you mentioned. Compare them to the 77 SMK benchmmarks. The Hornady 75 HPBT-M is not as good as the 77 SMK but it is still very, very good and is a LOT less expensive. As a guesstimate - 1/4 MOA larger groups BUT half the price. |
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Posted: 7/15/2024 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#4]
I have a bunch of Hornady 68's which many people claim won't shoot. 24.0 grains of VihtaVuori N140 and they consistently shoot under 1 moa in most of my rifles. That's a modest load, almost 1.0 grain under .223 maximum. Estimated velocity is 2700 fps from a 20" WOA service rifle upper.
1 moa is the cut line for me. I love smaller groups than that, but 1 moa is very good ammo in my book. It is impossible to predict what individual bullet or powder charge is going to shoot best in any individual rifle. There are a lot of loads that are known to be good performers in most rifles, that doesn't mean you shouldn't experiment a little going up (if safe) or down in small incremental powder charges. Sometimes a .3 grain change can improve groups in your specific circumstances. I continue to get my smallest groups when using 52/53 grain match bullets at 100 yards, even though they aren't supposed to work well from 1:7 and 1:8 twist barrels. I have never had one blowup in flight because of too many RPM's. |
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Posted: 7/16/2024 4:35:50 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 7/19/2024 6:14:11 PM EDT
[#6]
I loaded up a ladder of 10 rounds with 77gr SMKs, 2.250", 23.2-25.0gr (0.2gr increments) of MP518 (Winchester StaBall Match equivalent). Now I just need my upper to come in.
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CO, USA
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Posted: 7/19/2024 7:42:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ZA206: You don’t need to tell me anything as I’ve got a great load for the 77 TMK, it just took a little more work than I expected. I think there are other bullets that are easier to find accurate loads with, and most here will agree with me. I’d bet $5 he finds some great loads with the 69 and 52 SMK without trying very hard! -ZA Yes, there are alot of bullets that are accurate............ I was merely explaining my exact opposite experience to yours; ".......As for the TMK’s, they can be very accurate, but are very picky on powder and seating depth, so they are tougher to get ultra precise loads with......... I found neither to be the case............... To each his own. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 7/19/2024 7:44:05 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38579/2024-07-16_13-29-26-3268606.jpg You will find good accuracy in all those, no doubt............ Well unless there is something odd with your barrel. |
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Posted: 7/19/2024 8:12:02 PM EDT
[#9]
I was hardcore 69gr. guy until I saw the light and went to 77gr. Matchkings. I load the same round for every course of fire now.
23.2 of 8208 is my go to, when my supply runs out I don't know what I'm gonna do. Lots of guys love the 80's but in my personal testing I could not measure a difference. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/19/2024 8:41:20 PM EDT
[#10]
I have had a little better luck with the 69gr SMK than 77 SMK. I can only shoot out to 300 though
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Posted: 7/19/2024 9:18:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I loaded up a ladder of 10 rounds with 77gr SMKs, 2.250", 23.2-25.0gr (0.2gr increments) of MP518 (Winchester StaBall Match equivalent). Now I just need my upper to come in. Fuck yeah, dude- go get ‘em |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/24/2024 8:42:38 PM EDT
[#12]
I tested out some 77 matchburners today. Rifle was a 20" Wilson 1/8 Wylde chamber. Omega 300 suppressor. They shot very well for me.
23.0 RL15, 22.0 XBR 8208, 23.0 Tac, and 23.8 CFE 223 all turned in 5 shot groups measuring 0.5" or less. My rifle preferred then in the 2600-2650 fps range. I like them well enough that I ordered 3k more. |
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Posted: 8/27/2024 12:05:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Anxiously awaiting results from the 52gr. After having great success with 50gr vmax and 53gr bthp Hornady offerings, I’ve been thinking about trying some of the 52gr smk
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Posted: 8/27/2024 12:11:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blk99sleekbeak: Anxiously awaiting results from the 52gr. After having great success with 50gr vmax and 53gr bthp Hornady offerings, I've been thinking about trying some of the 52gr smk My upper is finally out for delivery TODAY! It's taken almost 8 weeks since ordering... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/27/2024 8:39:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: My upper is finally out for delivery TODAY! It's taken almost 8 weeks since ordering... I know that feels good i remember waiting on my WOA upper. I'm waiting on a Bartlien 26" brl right now for the "ultimate" 223 bolt gun test bed i'm assembling. I'll be interested to see how the AR's stack up against it in group size. |
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Posted: 8/27/2024 10:05:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: carcrazysammy]
[#16]
What are the specs on your upper?
I've got a standard service rifle upper that shoots very well. It really likes 77 SMK with 2520 and Tac powders. Got my PB 5 shot group with this upper. Couldn't repeat it but it regularly gets sub half inch groups 5 shot groups with regularity.   
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KY, USA
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Posted: 8/28/2024 11:53:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: I have a bunch of Hornady 68's which many people claim won't shoot. 24.0 grains of VihtaVuori N140 and they consistently shoot under 1 moa in most of my rifles. That's a modest load, almost 1.0 grain under .223 maximum. Estimated velocity is 2700 fps from a 20" WOA service rifle upper. 1 moa is the cut line for me. I love smaller groups than that, but 1 moa is very good ammo in my book. It is impossible to predict what individual bullet or powder charge is going to shoot best in any individual rifle. There are a lot of loads that are known to be good performers in most rifles, that doesn't mean you shouldn't experiment a little going up (if safe) or down in small incremental powder charges. Sometimes a .3 grain change can improve groups in your specific circumstances. I continue to get my smallest groups when using 52/53 grain match bullets at 100 yards, even though they aren't supposed to work well from 1:7 and 1:8 twist barrels. I have never had one blowup in flight because of too many RPM's. I can attest to the 68 gr Hornady bullets shooting out of WOA service rifle barrels. Sighting mine at the start of the year, I shot some groups with the 68s and held moa or less. |
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Posted: 8/28/2024 3:30:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: What are the specs on your upper? I've got a standard service rifle upper that shoots very well. It really likes 77 SMK with 2520 and Tac powders. Got my PB 5 shot group with this upper. Couldn't repeat it but it regularly gets sub half inch groups 5 shot groups with regularity. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230617_140516-2857339.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230722_145953-2894783.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230722_150002-2894784.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: What are the specs on your upper? I've got a standard service rifle upper that shoots very well. It really likes 77 SMK with 2520 and Tac powders. Got my PB 5 shot group with this upper. Couldn't repeat it but it regularly gets sub half inch groups 5 shot groups with regularity. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230617_140516-2857339.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230722_145953-2894783.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/109231/20230722_150002-2894784.jpg From WOA's website: White Oak Predator Uppers (.223/5.56) The Predator series was introduced as a lighter version of our Varmint uppers while maintaining the benfits of a heavy barrel. This beefy barrel is turned to a slightly smaller outer diameter than our Varmint barrel. The Predator is .900" under the handguard, .875" at the gas block, and .760" forward of the gas block, this results in a barrel about half a pound lighter than our varmint barrels, but retains a heavy profile that heats up more slowly that a lighter barrel and has the rigidity of a heavier barrel. The muzzle is threaded 5/8x24 and a thread protector is installed. Predator barrels have our custom WOA Varmint chamber which is designed for optimal performance with magazine length ammunition in both .223 and 5.56. Barrels are available in 18-inch and 20-inch lengths. The twist rate is 1-8 twist which will handle a wide variety of ammunition. For those who will be shooting exclusively lighter ammunition and light varmint loads we also offer the 20" Predator upper with a 1-12 twist barrel. Our White Oak TR Series handguard has a picatinny rail the full length lthe top and M-LOK on the sides and bottom. The tube is hardcoat anodized, the steel barrel nut and screws are nitride finished which provides excellent corrosion resistance in the harshest conditions. Our handguards are designed for increased rigidity and minimal flex by incorporating a long barrel nut with a full 2.5 inches of contact between the barrel, nut, and handguard. The 18" Upper has our custom gas system length which is 1" shorter than rifle length, this aids in reliable function and accuracy. The 20" Uppers have a rifle length gas system. As with all White Oak uppers the bolt carrier group and charging handle are included with our Predator uppers. Specifications: A4 Forged Flattop Receiver with white t-marks Mil Spec Bolt Carrier Assembly, headspaced Mil Spec Charging Handle Stainless Steel, Match Grade Barrel Muzzle Threaded 5/8x24 with Thread Protector installed TR Series MLOK Handguard |
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Posted: 8/28/2024 6:30:08 PM EDT
[#19]
IMHO
People's guns do the talking period! Coupled with the components they have. A lot variables so to speak. The 77gr SMK with Varget or TAC has always been very good in my guns from 1/8-1/7 uppers. And, in rebarreled R700 with 1/8 very nice results. From a price point the Match Burners look to be cheaper, but they only come 100ct boxes that I have seen. Nosler 77 and 69 gr CC bullets have always been good work with. Especially if you snag some seconds from Nosler. |
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Posted: 8/28/2024 6:55:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TxRabbitBane: Lol just received another 500 77TMKs from palmetto/AAC. Not SMK, but good enough for now. |
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Posted: 8/28/2024 7:28:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rn22723: IMHO People's guns do the talking period! Coupled with the components they have. A lot variables so to speak. The 77gr SMK with Varget or TAC has always been very good in my guns from 1/8-1/7 uppers. And, in rebarreled R700 with 1/8 very nice results. From a price point the Match Burners look to be cheaper, but they only come 100ct boxes that I have seen. Nosler 77 and 69 gr CC bullets have always been good work with. Especially if you snag some seconds from Nosler. Here's my overall motivation about the Barnes MBs: If they're virtually indistinguishable from the SMKs, then I'd rather save the money. If the SMKs consistently produce measurably better results: I'd rather spend the extra money. I suppose buying 100 of the Barnes is no big deal though. Might as well test them myself. |
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Posted: 8/29/2024 10:54:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cvtrpr]
[#22]
77TMK versus a 77TMK....ETA: @100Y
One shot. (Practiced on an empty case, which took me 2 rounds)  Attached File Attached File |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/30/2024 8:16:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: molar]
[#23]
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KS, USA
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Posted: 9/6/2024 1:32:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Somerled]
[#24]
The Sierra 77 grain bests the Barnes Match Burner slightly when you look at ballistics coefficients. You can buy the Sierra bullets in 500-round bulk packages when you can find them.
However, each rifle's got a mind of its own. Tinkering, trying to find that perfect combination, can be fun if you have the time and patience. As far as the poll question goes, you pick a bullet based on what you want to use it for keeping variables in mind, such as wind, range, twist of the rifling, etc. I'm partial to Sierra Matchkings, I will admit, across the board. I have a sizeable stockpile of the 52-grain BTHP for rifles with 1-9" twists. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2024 4:34:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By molar: I made it out to the range today and shot a few of the 77 match burners at 200. Do an overlay of the two to see what you've really got in terms of group size. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2024 7:00:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Raven Rocks has 100 for $189 shipped.
https://ravenrocksprecision.com/22-cal-224-diam-77gr-hpbt-match-burner-bullets-w-cannelure-updating/ |
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USA
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Posted: 9/6/2024 10:04:30 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OHBuckeyes: Raven Rocks has 1,000 for $189 shipped. Fixed it for you. |
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Posted: 9/6/2024 11:08:47 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By molar: I made it out to the range today and shot a few of the 77 match burners at 200. 23.0 gr RL15, LC case, CCI 450 https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53959595258_83b2a184e3_z.jpgUntitled by Adam C, on Flickr" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53959595258_83b2a184e3_z.jpgUntitled by Adam C, on Flickr https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53958452607_19fe61d01d_z.jpgUntitled by Adam C, on Flickr" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53958452607_19fe61d01d_z.jpgUntitled by Adam C, on Flickr Amazing groups!! I've got some RL15 but never found a good load using it with 77g projectiles. I'll have to give it a try. Do you know your velocity? |
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USA
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Posted: 9/7/2024 2:51:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#29]
I could not resist.
I assumed the center of the orange dot is the point of aim for both groups. I overlaid the two 5 shot groups and found the smallest circle that circumscribes all 10 shots. That circle was 0.66 MOA in diameter. An interesting observation - the shot that looks like "a flier" in one group fits nicely inside the other group and does not look like a flier in the overlay. So, yeah, that is pretty darned good shooting.  At 19 cents a piece, that is half the price of 77 gr MatchKings. |
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Posted: 9/7/2024 10:33:42 AM EDT
[#30]
I'll probably order some Match Burners and try them out. Sounds like they're real close and I probably won't be able to tell the difference with the SMKs.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2024 2:32:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By carcrazysammy: Amazing groups!! I've got some RL15 but never found a good load using it with 77g projectiles. I'll have to give it a try. Do you know your velocity? 2580 from a 20”. Not terribly fast. I could another 100 fps going to 24.0 gr, but accuracy falls off a little. Still MOA though |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/7/2024 3:47:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: molar]
[#32]
Loaded up a few match burners with 24.3 gr CFE 223 to try at 200. My MCX loves the 77 SMK's over this charge of CFE 223.
This was shot yesterday afternoon. It's got me curious if the one flyer was me or not, but even with the one stray, it's still around 0.6 MOA. I'm going to load some more and see what they do next weekend.  Untitled by Adam C, on Flickr" />ETA Found this target I shot with 77 SMK pulls from AR a few weeks ago. Same rifle, 200 yards, with 24.3 gr CFE 223. I thought the flyer was likely because they were pulls, but the same thing happened with the matchburners. I wonder if it's a last round flyer and has something to do with the mag? I'll shoot a 10 round group next time and see if there is still a single flyer.  Untitled by Adam C, on Flickr" />
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Posted: 9/9/2024 12:35:13 PM EDT
[#33]
I hate to start a new thread because I don’t have any specifics, and the various weights of TMK’s are discussed pretty heavily here
I just had some excellent results with the 60gr tmk and n133 powder. Like I said, didn’t measure or anything but I’ll for sure be buying a couple more hundred bullets to load up |
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USA
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Posted: 9/9/2024 1:57:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#34]
Blk99sneekbeak, no one is saying anything bad about the MatchKings, they are praising the MatchBurners as offering comparable performance.
I've never had a bad MatchKing. As a result, I've never tried MatchBurners. It seems, at half the price, they may be worth looking at. I've been looking to reduce the cost growth for shooting, so I tried some 77 gr "factory seconds". They were about the same price as Match Burners but they sucked! |
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Posted: 9/9/2024 2:48:30 PM EDT
[#35]
I'm still running a ton of experiments with my new rifle using the 77/69/52gr SMK, StaBALL Match HD and TAC. Once I get a good load with the SMKs, I'll try the same load with some Match Burners. At some point in time, I might even settle on one load.
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Posted: 9/9/2024 3:12:35 PM EDT
[#36]
One has to consider that the Tipped SMK was initially a product only for BHA.
I still stick with the 69 SMK, old school. Or the 69gr Nosler is good for my expectations. Especially if some blems come across the radar. One thing to consider is that Barnes bullets have never been a high volume producer. Sure in their varmint bullet line they offer some larger packages. The Match Burner line up is sort of hit and miss. The only only I have tried have been the 30 cal 175, and well not really impressed. I have a solid 175gr load with the SMK. And, if I want Berger spice...the 185gr Juggernaut is exceptional. |
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Posted: 9/9/2024 9:58:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blk99sleekbeak: I hate to start a new thread because I don't have any specifics, and the various weights of TMK's are discussed pretty heavily here I just had some excellent results with the 60gr tmk and n133 powder. Like I said, didn't measure or anything but I'll for sure be buying a couple more hundred bullets to load up Please do start your own thread and discuss your loads. No need to go off topic. Thanks 
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MT, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2024 3:06:09 PM EDT
[#38]
Got some of the Barnes ordered and intend to use with MP518.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2024 5:36:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Give me a couple weeks. Picking up a box each of 77gr TMK, 77gr MatchBurner, and 77gr ELD-M.
Was already going to buy them for my own testing. This Faxon doesn’t seem to like the 69gr SMK. It does about 1-1/2min with factory or handloaded 69gr SMK. Yet it also tends to do the same with a Hornady FMJ… |
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Posted: 9/10/2024 5:57:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spyderboy03: Got some of the Barnes ordered and intend to use with MP518. Awesome - that's the powder I'm using as well. I'm looking forward to your results |
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Posted: 9/10/2024 5:57:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FritzTKatt: Give me a couple weeks. Picking up a box each of 77gr TMK, 77gr MatchBurner, and 77gr ELD-M. Was already going to buy them for my own testing. This Faxon doesn't seem to like the 69gr SMK. It does about 1-1/2min with factory or handloaded 69gr SMK. Yet it also tends to do the same with a Hornady FMJ So far, I'm getting better results with the 77s over the 69s as well. |
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Posted: 9/10/2024 6:00:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: @Blk99sleekbeak Please do start your own thread and discuss your loads. No need to go off topic. Thanks This thread is all over the place talking about smk’s, tmk’s, and match burners of various weights. I was letting the op know I had success with a bullet already heavily discussed, but in a weight not yet mentioned. Seems perfectly on topic |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 9/10/2024 8:08:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: So far, I'm getting better results with the 77s over the 69s as well. Any speculation as to why? As far as I’m concerned, with the bbl I’m referring to, I assume it’s a harmonics thing. Maybe it just doesn’t like that velocity range or something. It’s lighter profile, so not the most rigid. |
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Posted: 9/10/2024 11:00:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blk99sleekbeak: This thread is all over the place talking about smk's, tmk's, and match burners of various weights. I was letting the op know I had success with a bullet already heavily discussed, but in a weight not yet mentioned. Seems perfectly on topic |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/13/2024 6:57:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: molar]
[#45]
Got back out to the range today for more testing @ 200. Got MOA groups with CFE 223, Tac, and XBR 8208. Not as spectacular as RL-15, but I'm down to the last pound of that. For .19 a bullet, I'm happy.
 Untitled by Adam C, on Flickr" /> Untitled by Adam C, on Flickr" /> Untitled by Adam C, on Flickr" />
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Posted: 9/13/2024 7:28:51 PM EDT
[#46]
I went ahead and ordered 500 of the 77gr SMKs - might as well go with the Sierras as Midway had a 20% off coupon.
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USA
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Posted: 9/18/2024 12:16:36 PM EDT
[#47]
Down to 15 cents per shipped when you buy 3200.
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ME, USA
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Posted: 9/18/2024 12:30:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Please keep comments to 77 gr bullets as in the thread title. Thanks. Please look at the pole at the beginning of the thread, OP was asking about more than 77gr bullets. |
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Posted: 9/18/2024 1:23:12 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: Please look at the pole at the beginning of the thread, OP was asking about more than 77gr bullets. So the thing for me to do is back off. So carry on. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 9/18/2024 4:40:47 PM EDT
[#50]
I don't feel like prepping brass, so I order 1k prepped Lake City cases for my 1k Barnes 77gr. Will be interesting to see how they develop with CCI #41's and MP 518. Will hopefully get to test them in the next month or two.
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