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Posted: 10/8/2023 6:33:58 PM EDT
My son got a taste of 4H small bore shooting. He's using a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights.
He did ok on the CMP portion. Found out it's a lot harder on the NRA 3-P portion. We're starting to talk about possibilty of training for college scholarship, but can't afford Anschutz rifle. Anyone have ideas on a match rifle with target sights? I saw a bunch of people with Savage FVT rifles. I'm a little trigger shy on any more Savage rimfires. Both Rascals we got the kids were horrible with misfires, and the 17HMR Minimalist my son wanted has loose, cheap mags that give feeding issues (even after some adjustment a polishing on the lips following a bunch of online advice.) |
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[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#1]
An Anschutz 54 in a wood stock is a great way to get started. The prices might be a surprise.
There are older Walther rifles that are fine. He doesn't need a new metal chassis gun, none of these will hold him back for years. Remington Model 37 Remington Model 541 Remington Model 521T if he is small Remington Model 40 Winchester Model 52 Springfield Armory has a new rifle in a stock that looks like it might be a candidate. The CZ 457 Precision Trainer is another rifle to check out. A sporter version of these rifles could be set up to work. Buy a rifle with the sights if possible. A three position rifle won't improve his scores until he learns to shoot from position with a sling. He needs to dry fire at home and shoot lube ammunition with a coach. A sporter bolt action can serve for a while, the fundamentals are the same no matter the rifle. It's easier to track down a rifle if we have a budget. |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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[#2]
Look at the CZ 457 line. Comes in many flavors and prices. Adjustable trigger, and a simple spring swap can get you under a 1 lb pull. No end to the aftermarket parts for them, you can upgrade as money and skill level dictate.
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[#3]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: My son got a taste of 4H small bore shooting. He's using a Ruger 10/22 with Tech Sights. He did ok on the CMP portion. Found out it's a lot harder on the NRA 3-P portion. We're starting to talk about possibilty of training for college scholarship, but can't afford Anschutz rifle. Anyone have ideas on a match rifle with target sights? I saw a bunch of people with Savage FVT rifles. I'm a little trigger shy on any more Savage rimfires. Both Rascals we got the kids were horrible with misfires, and the 17HMR Minimalist my son wanted has loose, cheap mags that give feeding issues (even after some adjustment a polishing on the lips following a bunch of online advice.) View Quote A CZ or the Bergara B14R would be the two if I were wanting to keep the price down and get a good rifle. |
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[#4]
OP - what is your price point?
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[Last Edit: charliedontsurf]
[#5]
A Remington 540X in good shape would be where I would start, cheaper than the Anschutz models, and stellar accuracy.
Fantastic shooters, and the triggers can be tuned to an amazing trigger as well. A very accurate rifle with fast lock time, assuming you're using match grade ammo. Should give the Anschutz shooters a run for the money if the shooter does their part. Try to find one with some Redfield diopter sights and multiple globe apertures for the front sight or upgrade them to some more modern diopter sights. |
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[#6]
Originally Posted By HammerTech: Look at the CZ 457 line. Comes in many flavors and prices. Adjustable trigger, and a simple spring swap can get you under a 1 lb pull. No end to the aftermarket parts for them, you can upgrade as money and skill level dictate. View Quote |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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[#7]
Savage Mark I-FVT.
Should be under $450 or so. |
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[#8]
Thanks! I'll start looking into the models listed.
Budget, obviously cheaper than $5000 Anschutz! I'm hoping I can find something in the $500 -600 range that will work. I think I could convince my wife to double that if I could prove it would help him with college scholarship path. |
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[#9]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: Thanks! I'll start looking into the models listed. Budget, obviously cheaper than $5000 Anschutz! I'm hoping I can find something in the $500 -600 range that will work. I think I could convince my wife to double that if I could prove it would help him with college scholarship path. View Quote A lightly used Remington 540X, should be obtainable in that ball park, may have scour the internet for one though. |
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[#10]
And if you double the budget some sight upgrades could be had and accessories, handstop, shooting cuff, shooting jacket, glasses, etc.
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[#11]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: Thanks! I'll start looking into the models listed. Budget, obviously cheaper than $5000 Anschutz! I'm hoping I can find something in the $500 -600 range that will work. I think I could convince my wife to double that if I could prove it would help him with college scholarship path. View Quote In that price range a CZ is the answer. At around $1000 then a Bergara B14R which is nice as it take Rem 700 triggers and stocks/chassis for upgrading and also takes larger magazines for easier handling. It’s like a budget Vudoo. |
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[#12]
Cz527 is a great budget option.
Ruger has an American that comes with target sights. Model 8328 Buds has them about $300 I have seen several American Rim fire shoot very well. It would be a cheap one to get started and see if something better is needed. Ruger 8328 |
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[Last Edit: ajroyer]
[#14]
Originally Posted By Erik72: How about the Kimber 82 with target sights? Many sold from the CMP Store. I often see Anschutz sights come up for sale in vari0us classified and maybe even ebay. A set of those mounted on a CZ457 would be a nice combination. Or the Lyman target sights that are still available. Here are a couple pics of that setup. https://i.imgur.com/lIs5jH1.png https://i.imgur.com/pBA96PA.png https://i.imgur.com/KBXGRtP.png or you could really go wild and mount some target sights on an AR22 like this: https://i.imgur.com/9xsQLgi.jpg View Quote I'm starting to watch gun sites for the Winchester 52 and Kimber 82. It figures that everything I ever like or want stops getting produced! Thanks for the pics of that CZ457. I had looked at it but wasn't sure if target sights were made for it. Looks like you had a little gunsmithing done. At least it's another option. That AR22 looks cool, but unfortunately I still live in Illinois and the "assault weapons ban" is still moving up through the courts. The 4H rules specifically mentioned that no AR style rifles would be allowed. Otherwise I would look at a CMMG conversion for my NMA4 and call it good (assuming I can get the rifle under 7lbs and trigger up to 3lbs...) |
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[#15]
Pass on the Kimber 82 unless it's cheap. Really cheap.
They look great and you will think they'll get the job done since the government bought many. Accuracy is mediocre at best and almost any other choice will be better. Winchester 52's require educating yourself about the differences of each version. Overall they're solid, but not the same. I was about to recommend looking through the inventory at Cheseboro rifles, but it looks like he has changed his business and no longer has a big inventory of 3 position rifles that he sold after he took over Mac Tilton's business. Take a look anyway, there is a Ruger that might work for you - https://www.chesebrorifles.com/ |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#16]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: Thanks! I'll start looking into the models listed. Budget, obviously cheaper than $5000 Anschutz! I'm hoping I can find something in the $500 -600 range that will work. I think I could convince my wife to double that if I could prove it would help him with college scholarship path. View Quote There is a gunshop in Illinois that routinely imports huge lots of European guns. They occasionally have Anschutz target rifles for sale. You might try watching their "What's New" listings for a while. You might get lucky. Beware, the good stuff sells FAST (as in within minutes of being posted online). Sometimes good stuff that doesn't sell right away ends up in the back stock, but usually the left-overs are turds. https://simpsonltd.com/whats-new/ https://simpsonltd.com/search-results-page?q=anschutz |
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[Last Edit: 1086Cowboy]
[#17]
As a former 4-h shooter, I guess I can offer some advice. The standard guns and stocks like bergara and savage are not relevant to 3P. The stock needs to be designed for 3 p. This means is will have a extremely deep belly, a butt plate adjustable for LOP and cant, and a Anshutz rail in the fore end for sling mounting and hand stop placement. Some budget options to look at might be a Remington 540x or xr, a Marlin 2000, or a used Anschutz 1903
ETA for CMP style matches the standard style guns are great. Cz 457, savage heavy barreled models, etc will work fine. |
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[#18]
Originally Posted By 1086Cowboy: As a former 4-h shooter, I guess I can offer some advice. The standard guns and stocks like bergara and savage are not relevant to 3P. The stock needs to be designed for 3 p. This means is will have a extremely deep belly, a butt plate adjustable for LOP and cant, and a Anshutz rail in the fore end for sling mounting and hand stop placement. Some budget options to look at might be a Remington 540x or xr, a Marlin 2000, or a used Anschutz 1903 ETA for CMP style matches the standard style guns are great. Cz 457, savage heavy barreled models, etc will work fine. View Quote Having owned all 3 at various points the 540X & 540XR, were the ones that were kept, sold the other 2. The Marlin was a good shooter, but the trigger wasn't anywhere near as nice as the 540's. An old Brno Mod 4 ZKM 456 ST-Match Rifle would serve well too, if you can find one. |
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[#19]
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[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#21]
If I am seeing the front sight correctly (pic is fuzzy), you can buy a set of insert for those. The set includes apertures.
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[#22]
OP Dash, if your son is serious about trying to grow his skills and push his potential with his goal of a scholarship, let me see if I can help with that endeavor. Please look at the pictures of this Remington 541X target government model in what I consider pretty pristine condition.
if you think this will be an excellent next step for your son, let me know and we can work out some type of free long term use thing or a very very cheap sale with a guaranteed buy back by me in a few years. No strings attached, I just consider it trying to do something nice out of respect for all of those who did so many nice things for me when I was his age! Let me know….. photos attached, I had a video, but could not figure out how to upload it. Pax. Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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[#23]
@AeroE that looks great! I'll talk to my wife about funds and see about making a trip across the river. Thanks!
@TactTm1 I appreciate the offer. I would be too paranoid about a loaner rifle. We're looking for something permanent. Thanks! I contacted TechSights and asked about target sights to change out. They don't have anything, but say the AR15 match sight with hooded aperture will fit. I looked at swapping them. It would mean losing rear elevation because I need to remove the sight from the windage screw. Tech sights have elevation adjustment built in to the aperture piece, NM sights adjust the whole sight assembly. |
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[#24]
Don't change the sights until you understand what you'll need. You will need elevation and windage adjustments.
For now a couple of apertures for the front sight will be needed. I don't know the diameter of the front tube, check with Williams first. Other sources are Champions Choice, Champion Shooters Supply, and Creedmore Sports. I'd check with the CMP, too, there's a good chance they have sights and parts. Plus you'll need a sling, and you should check the rules before buying one. |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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[#25]
Most welcome. I was just trying to bridge the few years gap for him and avoid ya'll having to spend money during the development period.
FWIW, I am open to assisting another young person in a similar situation, with proper bona fides. TTM |
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[#26]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: @TactTm1 I appreciate the offer. I would be too paranoid about a loaner rifle. We're looking for something permanent. Thanks! View Quote He made a really great, generous offer. If I read it correctly, he even offered to sell it to you with a first right of refusal contingency if it ever gets resold. That's pretty "permanent". TactTm1, good one! |
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[#27]
I prefer the old classics like Winchester 52/75, Remington 513/40x/37
Back in the 1930’s to 60’s almost every domestic rifle company made economy mid range and premier guns designs for traditional small bore competition. These days current production guns designed for this type of shooting are few and far between and can be expensive- more than a better built older rifle imo My most recent is a Remington 521-T that I got for less than $250 If you are patient, and visit a lot of shops, the old school small bore competition rifles can be found in dusty racks- just no demand for them like in the past. I did a lot of shooting of a Remington 37 in college, shooting for a collegiate team. Fond memories |
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[#28]
Please raise your hand if you actually shoot 3P NRA or CMP matches?
College scholarship are available, but don't count on it. They are few and far between. I don't really see any of the recommendations above being a good choice. You don't need a new Anschutz, but you do need a decent rifle set up for 3P shooting. It's gonna cost you some coin if you buy. However before you buy a rifle, seek out a junior rifle club in your area. Get involved in that first. I was a collegiate coach for a while and I'm currently an NRA LvL2 Smallbore/Air coach. |
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[Last Edit: Middlelength]
[#29]
You should look harder at the Savage. You can get it with aperture sights, in a decent stock, etc. Check the CMP and look used. It is in an entirely different class than something like the Rascal.
With your son just starting out, something like this is going to answer a lot of questions, without having to jump into the deep end of the pool, such as Anschutz or Walther. A lot of people are recommending rifles in this thread that aren't compatible with what you want to do, because they aren't set up for the style of shooting you are talking about, i.e. stock and sights. Also look for the older Daisy airguns with the aperture sights. He can do a TON of practice at home with one of those, for three position, without needing to get the the range. I think these can often be found for less than $100. I bought mine off the CMP forever ago, and I think they sell much of what you are looking for at a good price. ETA - Search for this - Daisy M853 USED. CMP has them for $140 shipped. Depending on your access to a range, etc, something like this can be as important as the actual rimfire rifle. |
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[#30]
Originally Posted By Middlelength: You should look harder at the Savage. You can get it with aperture sights, in a decent stock, etc. Check the CMP and look used. It is in an entirely different class than something like the Rascal. With your son just starting out, something like this is going to answer a lot of questions, without having to jump into the deep end of the pool, such as Anschutz or Walther. A lot of people are recommending rifles in this thread that aren't compatible with what you want to do, because they aren't set up for the style of shooting you are talking about, i.e. stock and sights. Also look for the older Daisy airguns with the aperture sights. He can do a TON of practice at home with one of those, for three position, without needing to get the the range. I think these can often be found for less than $100. I bought mine off the CMP forever ago, and I think they sell much of what you are looking for at a good price. ETA - Search for this - Daisy M853 USED. CMP has them for $140 shipped. Depending on your access to a range, etc, something like this can be as important as the actual rimfire rifle. View Quote I like the idea of an air rifle for practice. I hadn't thought of that because 4H shoots either small bore or air rifle, so I was thinking of it as a separate discipline. My gun club has some savages for their junior shooters. I'll reach out to the guy running it and see if we can try one out. I'm not completely against savage, just had 3 out of 3 bad experiences with them. |
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[#31]
Originally Posted By bpm990d: Please raise your hand if you actually shoot 3P NRA or CMP matches? College scholarship are available, but don't count on it. They are few and far between. I don't really see any of the recommendations above being a good choice. You don't need a new Anschutz, but you do need a decent rifle set up for 3P shooting. It's gonna cost you some coin if you buy. However before you buy a rifle, seek out a junior rifle club in your area. Get involved in that first. I was a collegiate coach for a while and I'm currently an NRA LvL2 Smallbore/Air coach. View Quote My gun club's junior shooting program is a lot like the 4H shooting. It's more about getting kids on a bench with a rifle to teach firearm safety and fundamentals. I shot with the Navy Marksmanship Team for several years, so I've already taught my kids a lot of fundamentals. My boy is a great shot with our modified Ruger with Tech Sights. I better sight will just be one tool to make him more competitive. In the meantime, we're discussing physical conditioning and more practice. |
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[#32]
Originally Posted By ajroyer: My gun club's junior shooting program is a lot like the 4H shooting. It's more about getting kids on a bench with a rifle to teach firearm safety and fundamentals. View Quote See if there is a different club in the area. Somewhere in the state there is a club that hosts the Junior Olympic Rifle Championship. You are going to want to find out who hosts it and they will have a better lay of the landscape in the state. If you are going to go it alone at your own club, you can get a half way decent rifle for about $1500. Don't forget you will need all the other gear. If you are not a member already, you should join Target Talk. It's a forum hosted by PilkGuns. There are lots of international equipment for sale there. |
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[Last Edit: TactTm1]
[#33]
Reply to @Trollslayer: You are 100% correct, but I understand everyone has different concerns, esp. around firearms.
Just last night a young girl asked my why I continue to mentor at my alma mater HS rotc and I told her it was my way of giving back for the blessings I've received and lessons learned from others. ********** the AirGun recommendation in previous posts makes plenty of sense for OP to consider. Plenty of programs continue to upgrade their air rifles so there must be a decent secondary market somewhere. back in my day, we learning on the Mossberg 44, then as skill levels improved you moved to a 'step up' Remington, then a Winchester 64?? or the Remington 541, then then either plateaued or bought your own Anschutz 64 (yes i still have mine somewhere!) There were only a couple guy a year that shot the Anschutz and were almost always (like mine) bought from a graduating senior. ****** I am on my way to get that Remington 541 now...I told the LGS to mark it sold so can't go back on my word! great price though, so no prob! Have a Great and Peaceful day, All!! |
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[#34]
Update, just to close this out mentally.
Went to the LGS to pick it up...they were a bit busy so i was hanging around for the paperwork, approval, etc, with the 541 on the counter. I was taken aback by how many 'shooters' were flummoxed by a 22 cal target rifle! What is that for? How many rounds does it hold? Why would you want that? Can you put a Red Dot on it? Do they make longer 'clips?' Why is it so heavy? Can you get it with a polymer stock? Is that some type of sniper rifle? Generational differences, i guess!!! maybe not to many target rifles to choose in the video games! Anyway, my above offer is still up for consideration...meantime, I am compelled to send some lead downrange, one standard velocity shot at a time!!! |
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[#35]
OP, what did you end up with? My son went to 4H last night and completed the proto-marksman target. Unfortunately he returned home with some Anschutz desires.
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#DIV/0!
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[#37]
Sadly, we haven't been able to jump on any rifles yet. As soon as we got the feedback in this thread and saw the 541 across the river, we got a bunch of medical bills. Now we're trying to prioritize all of our other expenses.
The good news is that now I know what we're looking for and the price range that should be close enough to start budgeting and saving for. Thank you to everyone that helped in this process. We WILL eventually get one, it's just a matter of time. |
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[#38]
Check your local clubs, generally most junior small bore programs have club loaner rifles for beginners.
Win 75, Rem 513,521,541 are good starter rifles for smaller kids, not too expensive and fairly easy to find deceant ones. rem 37/40x, win 52 are very heavy and more adult size old school SB rifles for position shooting. Kimber 82 agree would be a good choice. |
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[Last Edit: BFskinner]
[#39]
Originally Posted By HammerTech: Look at the CZ 457 line. Comes in many flavors and prices. Adjustable trigger, and a simple spring swap can get you under a 1 lb pull. No end to the aftermarket parts for them, you can upgrade as money and skill level dictate. View Quote Another vote for CZ. I have a 455 American and it is amazingly accurate. It appears it can be set up with aperture sights fairly easily. |
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It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.
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[#40]
Originally Posted By BFskinner: Another vote for CZ. I have a 455 American and it is amazingly accurate. It appears it can be set up with aperture sights fairly easily. View Quote It's just better and cheaper to buy an actual ready to go 22 small bore Target rifle. CZ makes great 22s but by the time you bought one and modified into a usable small bore Target rifle you would be past Kimber82 or used older gen Anshutz money. |
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[Last Edit: nhsport]
[#41]
I believe as a JR (under 16?) the OPs kid has a limit on trigger pull of 3 or 3 1/2 lbs.
Anschutz rifles are crazy expensive when new but there are always good solid used rifles out there . In my area they mostly never see the inside of a regular gun store . There are a couple of specialty dealers . Find a range that has youth programs and hunt down the coaches . Most of those folks track who has rifles available . For the most part when a parent spends good money on a used or new top of the line target gun it is only going to get used for 4-6 years and most get re-sold . Back 6 or so years ago a local guy started bringing his daughter to our club matches and pretty much every match within driving distance . Guy was of modest means and surprised everyone when he bought two brand new top of the line Anshutz guns , one 22lr and the other a Air gun . Seemed kind of silly for him to lay out $10,000 or more for all the cool toys. Scary to see what he spent for gas and motels to haul the kid to every match in 4 or 5 states. Keep in mind the kid was good and liked doing all the work. Turned out the kid had her choice of Full Scholarships at 3 or 4 different schools , the $10,000 dad put out for guns was a pretty good deal . |
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[#42]
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[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#43]
It depends upon the match rules.
Quoting from NRA Smallbore Rule Book - 3.1 The Rifle - The rifle authorized for use in smallbore rifle matches is the .22 caliber rimfire chambered for cartridges commercially catalogued as the .22 Short, .22 Long, or .22 Long Rifle cartridges. There are no restrictions on the barrel length or overall weight of the rifle and accessories. No portion of the rifle or any attachment to the rifle shall extend more than 3 inches beyond the rear of the shooter’s shoulder. The trigger pull must be capable of lifting 3 pounds. The same rifle must be used throughout all stages of any one match (except aggregate) except in the case of a malfunction or disabled rifle, when the competitor may change rifles with permission of the Chief Range Officer. 3.2 Any Rifle - A rifle authorized for use in smallbore rifle matches using cartridges commercially catalogued as the .22 Short, .22 Long or .22 Long Rifle cartridges. There are no restrictions on the barrel length or overall weight of the rifle and accessories. Any safe trigger is allowed. No portion of the rifle or any attachment to the rifle shall extend more than 3 inches beyond the rear of the shooter’s shoulder. A butt plate conforming with NRA Rule 3.15 may be used. Around the body, or around the shoulder hooks are not permitted. The same rifle must be used throughout all stages of any one match (except aggregate) except in the case of a malfunction or disabled rifle when the competitor may change rifles with permission of the Chief Range Officer. In NRA Metric Position Course shooting, this rule will govern the conduct of the match and may not be waived by the Match Sponsor. 3.3 Light Rifle - Any .22 caliber rimfire (.22 Short, .22 Long, or .22 Long Rifle) with not less than a 2 pound trigger pull and which weighs not more than 8 ½ pounds when equipped with sights. 3.4 Junior Rifle - A rifle authorized for use in Junior competition using cartridges commercially catalogued as a rimfire .22 Short, .22 Long, or .22 Long Rifle cartridge. There shall be no restrictions on the barrel length or overall weight of the rifle. Any safe trigger is allowed. The rifle may not be equipped with thumb hole stock, Schuetzen Type Butt Plate (Rule 3.15), or palm rest (Rule 3.14). Adult use of this rule in open competition is permitted. |
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[#44]
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[Last Edit: bpm990d]
[#45]
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[Last Edit: Trollslayer]
[#46]
Originally Posted By bpm990d: Since OP was talking about scholarships to "college"; please tell us what rulebook the NCAA uses. There is nobody shooting rifles under NRA Rule 3.1 at a Division I school. View Quote If you are directly involved and already know from experience, please tell us. Simply saying, "NEGATIVE" is not clear at all. I quoted NRA rules because I am familiar with those. I went looking for NCAA rules, too, again, trying to help. It seems they use a version of the USA Shooting rules. However, the rules address only "Standard rifles" and "air rifles" with no mention of smallbore rifles. I found this 1500 g rule for the NCAA but it applies to "standard rifle" (centerfire) for 300m competition. 1. The minimum trigger pull is 1500 grams. The trigger pull must be measured with the barrel in a vertical position. Trigger weight control checks must be conducted immediately after the last series. A maximum of three (3) attempts to lift the weight is allowed. Any shooter whose rifle fails the test must be disqualified. I have no more time to spend right now. |
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