User Panel
Quoted: Quoted: Anyone with LE experience please: Why would you put off a search warrant when less people are on site? Depending on the case and what you're looking for(which does not apply here), you might want to ensure that the suspect is on scene because he might be carrying what you're looking for. Wouldnt that be safer for personnel? Less people involved will always be safer, yes. Would local cops be told the guy was being investigated for selling firearms without a license? I'd hope a local agency would nope out of that. Is there any reason I'm missing other than they were seeking a confrontation? I would absolutely expect anyone involved in executing the warrant to be briefed on the what and why, and definitely right before it's carried out. Not all local agencies are the same. Some good, some bad. Responses embedded. My thoughts as well. Even rudimentary surveillance needed to see if the victim was home would have caught him hauling a pile of weapons out. I'm curious what the number of guns they saw as too many. I really hope the basis for this isnt "hurrduurrr had a table at gun show must be dealer huuurrrduuuurrrr". |
|
Quoted: We are not free. Not as bad as many countries. But if you think America still exists like it did for your father and grandfather, you're delusional. View Quote What he said. What I've said for 40 years. Daw several mentions about cameras? Be sure they run without electricity. They cut power to the poor bastards house prior to kicking in the door. Widow needs to sue the fuck out of the ATF. Arfcom should support her with funding. |
|
And the GOP continues to fund them, why?
Keep barking, little doggie. I'm sure it is good for fundraising. |
|
It's fairly common practice to tape/ put something over the doorbell camera during the process of serving a warrant and raid. It's for officer/agent safety.
|
|
|
Yes.
|
|
What a shit fest. Why not just call the guy and tell him to come in?
They killed him over a subjective requirement to fill out some paperwork. |
|
I PRAY HIS WIFE AND HER LAWYERS GET SO MANY MILLIONS ATF HAS TO GO ON A WATER AND CRACKER DIET.
|
|
What a bunch of theater, Jim Jordan is just as responsible for this as anybody else in that Congress these assholes keep passing these continuing resolutions and these Omnibus spending bills making sure that f****** Stasi organization has a huge budget.
They should cut the budget down way way down or dissolve the agency it's not even needed. |
|
|
|
Quoted: Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. View Quote Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. |
|
Quoted: Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It's fairly common practice to tape/ put something over the doorbell camera during the process of serving a warrant and raid. It's for officer/agent safety. Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. Exactly. This was over a licensing dispute. One they needed more evidence to even charge him with, hence the search. If anything, obscuring the camera increased their risk by preventing him from using it to identify them prior to making forced entry. |
|
Quoted: Exactly. This was over a licensing dispute. One they needed more evidence to even charge him with, hence the search. If anything, obscuring the camera increased their risk by preventing him from using it to identify them prior to making forced entry. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's fairly common practice to tape/ put something over the doorbell camera during the process of serving a warrant and raid. It's for officer/agent safety. Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. Exactly. This was over a licensing dispute. One they needed more evidence to even charge him with, hence the search. If anything, obscuring the camera increased their risk by preventing him from using it to identify them prior to making forced entry. That would never be considered in JBT-think. Ref the airman shooting thread where the cop did not even make himself visible through the peephole. Police training has just recently moved towards de-escalating situations rather than going for max drama. A bit late but a ray of sunshine. |
|
|
I read the search warrant application and search warrant. I think there was probable cause for the search. But I didn't see anything in the warrant authorizing a no knock raid. Therefore, I believe this was a standard knock and announce, where the police knock loudly, announce their presence, and give the homeowner a reasonable time to open the door. Taping over the ring camera defeats the purpose of knock and announce. The whole point is that the homeowner is supposed to be alerted that police are there. Someone taping over a camera and then knocking loudly on the door is suspicious - now a homeowner might reasonably fear it's home invaders claiming to be police.
|
|
Quoted: I read the search warrant application and search warrant. I think there was probable cause for the search. But I didn't see anything in the warrant authorizing a no knock raid. Therefore, I believe this was a standard knock and announce, where the police knock loudly, announce their presence, and give the homeowner a reasonable time to open the door. Taping over the ring camera defeats the purpose of knock and announce. The whole point is that the homeowner is supposed to be alerted that police are there. Someone taping over a camera and then knocking loudly on the door is suspicious - now a homeowner might reasonably fear it's home invaders claiming to be police. View Quote We're long past the point where yelling police can be considered sufficient identification. Particularly if you're taping over cameras and hiding from the peephole. |
|
|
Quoted: I read the search warrant application and search warrant. I think there was probable cause for the search. But I didn't see anything in the warrant authorizing a no knock raid. Therefore, I believe this was a standard knock and announce, where the police knock loudly, announce their presence, and give the homeowner a reasonable time to open the door. Taping over the ring camera defeats the purpose of knock and announce. The whole point is that the homeowner is supposed to be alerted that police are there. Someone taping over a camera and then knocking loudly on the door is suspicious - now a homeowner might reasonably fear it's home invaders claiming to be police. View Quote @danno-in-michigan Any chance you have a link for the application and search warrant? |
|
Quoted: Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. |
|
Quoted: No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. As above +1. My son was in Iraq. The ROE were much stricter than for LE here in CONUS. |
|
Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/271112/ATF-NEVERFORGETTHESEARETHEKINDOFPEOPLEDE-3221682.JPG View Quote Pretty much. The one of the biggest questions from the Waco raid. Where is the front door and happen to it? Also, FATFE. |
|
Quoted: Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. View Quote No shit huh? You overhear that while servicing the FATF glory hole? |
|
Wonder how that would play out at my house?
Solar and hired wired cameras, some 20' plus high Back up generator Driveway alarm with an 800' driveway Motion lights on all sides at the eves I'd guess they'd come in guns blazing and shoot my dogs |
|
It is going to come down to November. They are going to do the same thing and our reaction will determine whether the kind of thing discussed in this thread intensifies or stops.
|
|
Your local sherriff should never, ever, loan deputies or equipment to federal agencies.
The worst is an FBI task force. That is where you send your better deputies to learn to violate the constitution, lie, cheat and steal. |
|
|
|
Quoted: @danno-in-michigan Any chance you have a link for the application and search warrant? View Quote https://www.kark.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/85/2024/03/Ex.-1-Search-Warrant-003.pdf |
|
Quoted: He said $265k a year and ran the Bill and Hillary Clinton National Airport. I think the guy is pretty easy to find with that position. What’s the point of coming in in the middle of darkness View Quote And because he worked at an airport the odds of him being armed while at work are close to zero. So if he was so dangerous why not go visit him in his office? |
|
Quoted: The claim is they week before they staged up and then didn't go because guy wasn't home. Since it was a search warrant and not an arrest warrant this is beyond bad and clearly show they wanted a confrontation. View Quote Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . |
|
|
Quoted: Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . View Quote He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. |
|
Quoted: Wonder how that would play out at my house? Solar and hired wired cameras, some 20' plus high Back up generator Driveway alarm with an 800' driveway Motion lights on all sides at the eves I'd guess they'd come in guns blazing and shoot my dogs View Quote They would have a drone fly overhead and drop incendiary devices on your roof |
|
Quoted: No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. View Quote 10 years ago I would have disagreed. Today i’m 100% onboard. |
|
|
Quoted: He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. View Quote Not true at all. Spouse, family, friends, etc. They needed his phones. They needed his computer. Otherwise, they would need a separate warrant for every location where those things are in order to seize them. Tactically, it is a poor choice. Him in the driveway would have been my preferred method. |
|
Quoted: He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. This, and they also never alleged he had unlawful firearms in his possession. Their claim was he was "in the business" without having an FFL. The warrant posted provides a lot of details and raises the question why they didn't just arrest him. He was playing the role of a dealer, transferring to himself on a 4473 for later resale. A few potheads were found with one of the ones he sold in their vehicle at a traffic stop. One he originally purchased was found in possession of a 15 year old gang member. The ATF planted a tracking device on his vehicle in February. They used an undercover agent to purchase from him at a gunshow, where he also admitted to performing interstate transfers without passing through a dealer. And still, none of that justifies the violent execution of the warrant that occurred that put their own officers at unnecessary risk. |
|
|
|
Quoted: No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lol GTFO with that bullshit, if they wanted safety they wouldn't be raiding and murdering. Clearly you've had too much lead for breakfast and don't know how it works. If you want to know why they cover the camera it is because when serving a search warrant they don't want whoever is inside and potentially dangerous to have any advantage and see where officers/agents are standing. No. Let’s be honest here about the full design of this type of raid. They intend to create as much confusion and fear as possible hoping people won’t resist. The problem is that will cause many otherwise good people to reach for weapons to defend themselves because they have no way of knowing who is breaking in. To reduce the risk to themselves, the only ones at the scene who signed up for a risky job, they create a situation where things like a man dying over an unpaid 200 dollar tax happens because they are fearing for their life. I’m done with it. If I’m ever on a jury and a raid is conducted like this that is not about saving hostages I’m voting not guilty for whatever the person is charged with, or holding out for maximum financial penalties. I hope more people take this stance to create an auto lose condition for the cops. This isn’t Iraq. Ayup. As a general rule, laws and policy centered around ‘officer safety’, fly in the face of the BoR. |
|
|
View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: @danno-in-michigan Any chance you have a link for the application and search warrant? https://www.kark.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/85/2024/03/Ex.-1-Search-Warrant-003.pdf Thank you. So that answers why they wanted him on the premises, they wanted his phone. |
|
Quoted: He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. The warrant includes his phone. Generally, we carry our phones on our person. I don't support the ATF at all, and I'm sure they could have arranged a second team to search him at his office simultaneously. |
|
Quoted: The warrant includes his phone. Generally, we carry our phones on our person. I don't support the ATF at all, and I'm sure they could have arranged a second team to search him at his office simultaneously. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. The warrant includes his phone. Generally, we carry our phones on our person. I don't support the ATF at all, and I'm sure they could have arranged a second team to search him at his office simultaneously. Or just showed up during daytime and politely knocked on the door and shown him the search warrant. |
|
|
Quoted: Or just showed up during daytime and politely knocked on the door and shown him the search warrant. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or it shows they wanted to catch him with the contraband, whatever it was, to prove possession . He doesn't need to be there to prove something is in his possession if it's in his home when they search it. ATF is asshole and will forever be asshole. They wanted a confrontation and they got what they wanted. No different than the branch dividians. The warrant includes his phone. Generally, we carry our phones on our person. I don't support the ATF at all, and I'm sure they could have arranged a second team to search him at his office simultaneously. Or just showed up during daytime and politely knocked on the door and shown him the search warrant. After reading the search warrant application, it does appear that the guy was very clearly strawman purchasing and running a business selling firearms. I wouldn't want to be the one politely knocking on the door of someone facing decades in prison and with a whole lot to lose. So, like I said, grab him outside of his home. |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.