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Sorry to necro-post and resurrect this - I was able to find several Colt M4s with what I called "Type 4a" receivers that I've managed to identify and document that I will be posting.
~Augee |
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I'm interested in this. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
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Thread tacked. Thanks for your hard work.
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Suos Cultores Scientia Coronat
"But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1782 |
I don't know how to delete this!!
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Great photos in both!
Will update shortly! ~Augee |
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This really is a great post.
A couple of side questions though: The caption to the FNMI photo above statest that FNMI "is the only company that produces m16a3 rifles". Is/Was that true? Also, you note that during the FNMI era, "burst" became "auto". Was that only a change of wording from burst to auto, or were the mechanics of the trigger control group also changed to true-auto rather than burst at that time? |
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I can't see the difference begween the "flat" mag fence and the "pointed".
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Interesting. Augee, any info on the "Balimoy" receivers? Were they indeed military, or merely engraved like Pete's Legal Transfer RRAs?
I believe Bushmaster or Rock River produced base dummy rifles for one of the Army's marksmanship training machines (Weaponeer, FATS, or something like it) before they were replaced with Armalites, and they were engraved with "Property of US Government" as well. |
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Originally Posted By Sinister:
Interesting. Augee, any info on the "Balimoy" receivers? Were they indeed military, or merely engraved like Pete's Legal Transfer RRAs? I believe Bushmaster or Rock River produced base dummy rifles for one of the Army's marksmanship training machines (Weaponeer, FATS, or something like it) before they were replaced with Armalites, and they were engraved with "Property of US Government" as well. I saw A2 rifles made by Balimoy in the hands of some sustainment brigade troops I was horsetrading with in Kandahar circa 2009. The USMC FATS had bushmasters and as I have said many times over the years, back in the 90's I drew an M4 from an armory for a school I was attending (I had never heard of the M4 at the time) and it was an A2 uppered bushmaster M4 carbine. |
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Originally Posted By Gennovations:
This really is a great post. A couple of side questions though: The caption to the FNMI photo above statest that FNMI "is the only company that produces m16a3 rifles". Is/Was that true? Also, you note that during the FNMI era, "burst" became "auto". Was that only a change of wording from burst to auto, or were the mechanics of the trigger control group also changed to true-auto rather than burst at that time? Yes, no, kinda... Colt "designed and developed" and delivered the original M16A2E3 ("third enhanced variation of the M16A2" - pre-production, but not quite experimental model) marked as such with U.S. Property markings. However, I have not seen, and am uncertain whether or not any Colt "M16A3" marked rifles were ever built, if they were, it would seem they are quite rare compared to the E3 variants. If Colt did not in fact manufacture an "M16A3" marked rifles, it would be "true" at the time of publication of TBRII that FNMI was the only company to produce full rate production USGI M16A3s, and the only company with a currently active contract for them. However, Bushmaster, then subsequently Sabre Defence were awarded M16A3 contracts in 2008-09 as well, though Bushmaster's contract was cancelled without any examples delivered. Not certain on the Sabres, but if any were - they were extremely small in number. Not sure what you're asking in the second part of the question... The original M16A1 was an S-1-F weapon, while part of the M16A2 "improvements" was the modification of the FCG to fire S-1-3. The BURST FCG was redesigned, and IMHO, both more complicated, and less reliable and consistent - because it involves a non-resetting rotating cam on the hammer, not only does it offer three different trigger pulls - one for each "notch" of the cam, but it also means if you fire to bolt lock on burst, but your final burst was only two rounds - the next time you pull the trigger, expecting another three round burst, you get a one round burst, and have to pull the trigger again. As far as I know, the M16A2E3/M16A3 was simply an M16A2 with an M16A1 FCG installed in it and re-marked for S-1-F. While the M16A2 was type-classified in 1983, the M16A2E3 didn't come about until around 1992, and the two served side by side, but the full automatic mechanism is older than the three round burst mechanism, which was redesigned. Originally Posted By Wespe:
I can't see the difference begween the "flat" mag fence and the "pointed". The difference is where the vertical "fence" around the magazine release button meets the pivot pin detent and spring "fence." If you look to the top right of the magazine release button and look closely at the contouring at the "T" junction of the fence, you can see the difference, where the "flat" fence kind of "blobs" into the pivot pin fence, while the "pointed" fence is contoured as if to come to a ^ where it meets the fence. Originally Posted By Sinister:
Interesting. Augee, any info on the "Balimoy" receivers? Were they indeed military, or merely engraved like Pete's Legal Transfer RRAs? I believe Bushmaster or Rock River produced base dummy rifles for one of the Army's marksmanship training machines (Weaponeer, FATS, or something like it) before they were replaced with Armalites, and they were engraved with "Property of US Government" as well. The Balimoy receivers were originally intended as M16A1 replacement receivers (if you look closely at the photos, you can see that they've been overstamped "A2" and "BURST") despite being A2-style forgings. Per D.E. Watters 5.56MM Timeline, they date from around 1988: AMCCOM awards a $182,000 contract to Balimoy Mfg. for replacement M16A2 lower receivers.
There have been some other companies that have gotten small contracts for training aids - like the Olympic non-functional M16A2 contract (with blue furniture!), and Armalite and Bushmaster weapons being used for simulators. There is still to this day no evidence of any U.S. military contract Bushmaster rifles or carbines. There have been one or two that have popped up here and there of unknown provenance, such as one that showed up in a 2ID HHC arms room - with a 16" DPMS 1/9 barrel of all things. They are not and have never been a USGI contract item. The only questionable contract that has ever been documented is a 65 carbine order in the early-1990s, with no evidence of where they went or what happened to them (i.e. they could have been FMS, a "gift" to a friendly dictator, agency purchase, ect.). However, it has been stated by reliable sources that these carbines were delivered with Eagle Arms lower receivers, and would not even have been Bushmaster marked. ~Augee |
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Sorry for newbie question, but can a AR15 stripped lower be used for an A2 build?
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Updates to OP:
Have changed the "Type" lowers to include an "intermediate" lower, and renumbered the Type 4 as the Type 5, and listed the Type 4 as the intermediate: From what I've been able to see, the five variants I have identified are: Type 1 - Early radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss Type 2 - Late radius, flat mag fence, early receiver boss Type 3 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, early receiver boss Type 4 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, intermediate receiver boss Type 5 - Late radius, pointed mag fence, late receiver boss ~Augee |
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Just to throw this out there...
I am a 91F, Small Arms Repair Technician for the Florida Army National Guard... I work full time and we have racks full of almost every configuration M16A2, M16A4, M4 and M4A1. Our inventory varies as our facility repairs every weapon in the state.. So what I'm saying is, if you guys need any detailed pictures of Army configuration M16s/M4s, please let me know. I can post them here or through PM. Just let me know! |
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Augee,
Great information contained here, I think we all appreciate your contributions throughout AR15.com. Thank you, openbolt |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Sabre Defence: ...and I'm not certain whether they ever actually filled their contract before they went out of business. Needless to say, seeing one or getting one issued would be pretty noteworthy and uncommon. ~Augee View Quote Augee, I saw Sabre Defence A4s in person last May at MCAS Yuma. Marines assigned to MAG-13 had them. I'll see what I can do to get a picture of one. Semper Fi, |
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Originally Posted By nitmr26:
Sabre Defense M16A4, MCAS Yuma, AZ. http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/q766/nitmr26/Sabre_zps6d3478dc.jpg View Quote Thanks! That's a great one! ~Augee |
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So, are there true sabre defense a2s or are they all a4s? Anyone have a nice closeup for us wanting to do an engrave of it on an 80?
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Sabre A3 is an A2 upper with full auto instead of burst. I had an 80 engraved with the Sabre A3 markings, but I spelled Defence with an S! Gonna use it as is.
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Originally Posted By MauserMatt:
Just to throw this out there... I am a 91F, Small Arms Repair Technician for the Florida Army National Guard... I work full time and we have racks full of almost every configuration M16A2, M16A4, M4 and M4A1. Our inventory varies as our facility repairs every weapon in the state.. So what I'm saying is, if you guys need any detailed pictures of Army configuration M16s/M4s, please let me know. I can post them here or through PM. Just let me know! View Quote That could be an awesome resource. Please look for items that are not ordinary, such as different makes of lowers/ uppers/ barrels. We have seen A2s with M16A1 lowers with Army Guard Units. Of course the AF side has any combination. Thanks for the offer MauserMatt |
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If U can't Truck It F!@k It!
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Originally Posted By imdBman: That could be an awesome resource. Please look for items that are not ordinary, such as different makes of lowers/ uppers/ barrels. We have seen A2s with M16A1 lowers with Army Guard Units. Of course the AF side has any combination. Thanks for the offer MauserMatt View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By imdBman: Originally Posted By MauserMatt: Just to throw this out there... I am a 91F, Small Arms Repair Technician for the Florida Army National Guard... I work full time and we have racks full of almost every configuration M16A2, M16A4, M4 and M4A1. Our inventory varies as our facility repairs every weapon in the state.. So what I'm saying is, if you guys need any detailed pictures of Army configuration M16s/M4s, please let me know. I can post them here or through PM. Just let me know! That could be an awesome resource. Please look for items that are not ordinary, such as different makes of lowers/ uppers/ barrels. We have seen A2s with M16A1 lowers with Army Guard Units. Of course the AF side has any combination. Thanks for the offer MauserMatt |
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What would be good to see is the feed ramps for the various combinations. There's a lot of confusion out there with the 14.5" and 20" barrels, M4, M4A1, A2 and then A3/A4 and the feed ramps they're supposed to have.
A2 carry handle uppers with feed ramps and without. A3 & A4 uppers the same. Then the M4 and M4A1, which should obviously have the M4 feed ramps. |
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Hey guys.. Sorry I don't get on the A2 boards too much..
I still work full time as a small arms repair tech... So if I can help with pictures or questions regarding... Well just about any small arm in the army inventory... I will help with what I can... I can't take pics inside the vault of course, but I have my work area that would not jeopardize security requirements. There's only 3 of us in the state.. So we do get a lot of hands on time with most of the Florida guard's weapons. Whether it be from individual weapon repairs or entire units going through their biennial gauging requirements, I've probably touched every Florida guard weapon in the state. So ask away! And probably best to send me a PM or an email to get my attention.. Like I said, I don't get through here to the A2 board a whole lot... |
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Originally Posted By AZCA:
What would be good to see is the feed ramps for the various combinations. There's a lot of confusion out there with the 14.5" and 20" barrels, M4, M4A1, A2 and then A3/A4 and the feed ramps they're supposed to have. A2 carry handle uppers with feed ramps and without. A3 & A4 uppers the same. Then the M4 and M4A1, which should obviously have the M4 feed ramps. View Quote I'll see what I can do for some pictures.... |
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looking forward to the pics mauser matt, thanks for the opportunity
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Got a little busy today and the other two guys are out for a few days. I'll get some pictures posted next week. Any requests besides feed ramps?
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Any M4s w/ fixed carry handles - priority
Offbeat makers/restamped M16A1s/XM177s Any M16A2s w/ collapsible stocks &/or railed forends |
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Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912
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Originally Posted By backbencher:
Any M4s w/ fixed carry handles - priority Offbeat makers/restamped M16A1s/XM177s Any M16A2s w/ collapsible stocks &/or railed forends View Quote I know right now I think I have the last 5 M4s in the state that have plastic handguards (owned by the Florida guard anyway). And in fact, that's why they're in the vault, to put some rails on them. I don't know how these few M4s escaped the Modification Work Order process that was supposed to have that work done already... But they slip through the cracks. Part of that MWO is the replacement of the carry handle with the Matech back up iron sights... We had found a few of those carrying handles floating around a couple years back, but they've been "converted" now. My inventory is always changing.. Just depends on when Joe decides to break his rifle as to when I get it. I know of one unit on post that has quite a few crossed out M16A1 lowers and even a few Hydramatics and H&R guns.. I think I've taken pictures of them before, so I'll dig through my pics to see if I saved them. There was one deploying aviation unit a few years back that had apparently ordered enough collapsible stock "kits" to convert their entire inventory of M16A2s to them. We did that for them, but when they came back the weapons go through a reset program. That reset team more than likely converted them all back to regular stocks. No idea where all those parts went.... The army is changing to exclusively the M4A1 soon. The word on the street is my state will be completely M4A1s by 2018.... I'm pretty sure I know what's going to happen to all those old M16A2 parts...... But maybe maybe maybe Trump will reverse Bill Clinton's directive to destroy old army weapons.... |
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hell yeah, thanks for the pics Matt. interesting the colt with FNMI barrel
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Dupe
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Originally Posted By BlindguyMcSqueezie:
hell yeah, thanks for the pics Matt. interesting the colt with FNMI barrel View Quote No problem! When I see that, it just tells me at some point that the original barrel was shot out and replaced. It really just depends on the who the army is buying parts from at that time. I get replacement parts from all sorts of different manufacturers. Lately, replacement M16A2 barrels have been coming from FN. M4/M4A1 barrels usually come from Colt. In fact, I haven't seen any FN manufactured M4s in the state. |
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Are you going by ANAD rebuild dates? Those two Colts look pretty close together in production, based both on features and serial numbers.
~Augee |
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Originally Posted By Augee:
Are you going by ANAD rebuild dates? Those two Colts look pretty close together in production, based both on features and serial numbers. ~Augee View Quote Just based on serial numbers. I'm sure they're not far apart at all as far as when they were manufactured. And their ANAD dates are the same.... So I'm not sure I understand your question.... I would think a 618xxxx was manufactured before a 649xxxx.... So those are the "oldest and youngest" Colt's that I have in my inventory at the moment...... |
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Didn't look very closely at the ANAD date codes (was on my phone), just that they had them. Was just wondering how you were determining youngest and oldest because the two rifles look close in production.
It's not an attack on your methodology, it would be interesting to see a side by side of an older production and newer production A2 that could highlight some of the variations that this and the upper thread are talking about. ~Augee |
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No worries! My inventory changes constantly, so as soon as I get a few older ones in, I'll post some more pics.
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Superior images MM!
Thanks |
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Is there any way to recover the lost images in the first posting?
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Google Photobucket Fix. Download & install in your browser.
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Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM.
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Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM.
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Thanks for taking the time to post it.
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Unfortunately, I no longer work at the small arms repair facility I was at... I know the guys that still work there, so I could potentially get pictures. But I no longer have any idea what the inventory is anymore.
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Send us cool pics of "antiques" you buy @ the bazaar before you send them home. And stay safe! You're likely allergic to rockets.
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Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/That-Every-Man-Be-Armed-Free-AR-parts-Please-contribute-your-parts-Trash-Panda-vid-Pg-15-/5-2146304/
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Saw an Armalite lower on an M16A2 EST trainer last night.
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Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/That-Every-Man-Be-Armed-Free-AR-parts-Please-contribute-your-parts-Trash-Panda-vid-Pg-15-/5-2146304/
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