I posted in the GD thread about this already. I'll cross-post it here as well:



I don't remember/know what the terms of service for E-Forms usage is. If Silencer Shop is breaking the TOS, then the ATF needs to address it and cut them off or make them stop. It's not fair to everyone who is playing by the rules.

If they aren't breaking the TOS with their bulk processing "hack", and the ATF doesn't like it, then they can update the website to prevent it from happening. I don't blame Silencer Shop for trying to make the Eforms system work for them. From what I can tell, the latter is more likely the case. They found a workaround, and the ATF/other dealers don't like it, so they're working on a fix.

But I'm mostly shocked by the second part, offering to submit forms for other dealers. That just seems like a terrible idea, and I can't believe anyone would be on board with it (including Silencer Shop, the other SOTs, and the ATF). There's no way I would give a 3rd party access to our ATF paperwork and software. If you allow them as a user on your account, they can submit anything they want, cancel anything they want, view your entire NFA inventory, look at your past sales, etc. I wouldn't want any party outside of our company and the ATF viewing that information, much less a competing retailer.

How do you do batch uploads? From what I've seen, that's not an option on the E-forms site. We rarely do more than 4-5 eform submissions a day, but a batch upload would still be handy.

I've been following this on a few other forums, including a forum that's restricted to FFL holders only. What they're claiming is that Silencer Shop has some type of software or program that is submitting eforms in batches, but it also has the capability to constantly submit forms and pound them through until they are accepted. So while many of us have resorted to trying to submit forms multiple times until it goes through, their software is automated and just keeps trying hundreds (or maybe thousands) of times until it works. That seems to be what is crashing the system. So it may not be an issue with the batch uploads, but the way that they're trying to force them through?

Supposedly, they have tried to sell the software to other FFLs so that they can do batch uploads as well, and I'm not sure what the ATF's stance on that is.

Whether or not this information is accurate, or just speculation, I really don't know. I'm just repeating what I have read on other forums. So take this information with a grain of salt.

I understand the theory behind why they want to offer the service. I'm sure their thinking is that FFL/SOTs will be more receptive to doing transfers from them if they don't have to do any legwork. But that still doesn't make it a good idea.

Having an FFL/SOT leaves you open to a ton of liability already. There are hundreds of regulations regarding how you conduct business, and mistakes can cost you your entire business, or send you to prison. Allowing a 3rd party to handle ATF paperwork is a bad idea for everyone involved. If Silencer Shop makes a mistake on your eforms account, the ATF will still hold you liable, even if it's their fault. It's your FFL/SOT on the line, and you're letting someone have access to it, that in most cases, you don't know and have never met. They have no ownership or vested interest in your business, and they're not a responsible party on your FFL. Yet, you're letting them have access to all your NFA paperwork and a record of all your sales, inventory and transfers. Besides, potentially being unlawful from an ATF standpoint, it's simply a bad idea.

I think the bank account example is a good comparison. If someone you don't know offers to help pay your bills for you, you wouldn't give them your account number and password, would you? Of course not. Regardless of what their intentions are, it's irresponsible to put that information into another person's hands. But in this case, you won't just lose your money, you could end up with the ATF shutting down your business and sending you to prison.

I don't think for a second that Silencer Shop has any malicious intent with this idea. I know they're just trying to make the process simpler. But they need to reconsider the idea, and realize that this is a huge can of worms about to be opened. Just imagine the civil suit that gets filed against Silencer Shop when an FFL/SOT gets shut down because of any type of mistake or improper paperwork, regardless of whether intentional or accidental. Even if it's not Silencer Shop's fault, they're opening themselves up to a huge liability with this, just by being involved with these other dealers that they don't know and have no control over. For their own protection, and the protection of the FFL/SOT dealers involved, they need to drop the idea immediately. The first time a mistake happens from either party involved, it's going to be a nightmare that may cost people jobs, or their FFL/SOT.

I would think, at a bare minimum, they need a very good lawyer on retainer if they're going to be messing with other dealers' paperwork.

I don't think you could pay me enough to submit an eform on someone else's account, unless I was sitting at the computer next to them and walking them through the process. But I certainly wouldn't want to do it for them. Same goes for 4473's, NICS checks, bound books, etc. That's just my opinion, but I've seen way too many cases of a government agency trying to make an example out of someone, and you spend a small fortune in legal fees just trying to stay afloat or keep yourself out of prison.

I doubt that. Many of us dealers have talked to the IT people at the ATF/NFA several times during the eforms outages, and they seem to be just as frustrated as us in trying to get it fixed. I'm sure this has been a major headache for them, and they're putting in a lot of hours just trying to keep the system running. If they wanted to keep people from submitting through Eforms, they just wouldn't offer Eforms. There's not really an advantage to faking technical glitches, and dealing with hundreds (or thousands) of angry dealers when you're the agency that gets to decide if you even offer the Eforms service.



They're not rumors. The original email didn't come from a SS competitor, but another party in the silencer industry that doesn't really compete directly with SS. And I've also heard the exact same information from other parties who have been talking directly to the NFA branch, so the ATF is definitely where this information originated.

SS is also quoted in the blog post, explaining their side of the story, and they haven't really denied any of this info. So it's fair to assume that it's mostly true. Again, I don't blame Silencer Shop for trying to streamline the process and make Eforms work for them. Every NFA dealer in the country wishes the Eform system was more reliable. But they definitely seem to have some influence on the outages, and the ATF has backed that claim up.

It's not rumors. Go back and read my post above. All of this info has been confirmed by the ATF through several different people speaking directly to them. The ATF has verified most of the info posted in that blog. Furthermore, Silencer Shop confirmed most of it in their response quoted in the blog. Lastly, the leaked email didn't originate from an envious dealer. It came from another party within the silencer industry, who does not compete directly with Silencer Shop.

So while we don't know the extent of how bad Silencer Shop is effecting the Eforms outages, they most certainly are influencing the outages, and making them worse. That's a confirmed fact. I suppose you can call the NFA branch yourself, and see what they say.



I'm not very tech savvy, but from what everyone else has said, it's not the number of forms submitted. It's the way they're submitting the forms. They have devised some type of software or program to constantly submit forms hundreds or thousands of times over a short period of time. It starts trying to submit and just constantly keeps trying until it gets the forms to go through. So the problem isn't that they're submitting a lot of forms in batches. It's that they're hitting the system repeatedly, in a very short span of time, trying to force the site to accept the submissions.

That is what the ATF has claimed is causing some of the outages, and they are supposedly working on a fix. Again, confirmed by the ATF and Silencer Shop has said they were doing this themselves. Noone's trying to bad-mouth Silencer Shop or run them out of business (at least, not that I've seen). They're just upset that Silencer Shop is affecting Eforms usage for everyone else.

You are correct, that the Eforms site is crap to begin with. It has been terrible since it was launched and needs a major overhaul. If one dealer can shut down the whole system, then that's definitely a problem with the site itself, as there should be no way for that to happen. But at the very least, the ATF needs to address the issue and come up with a solution that doesn't let Silencer Shop influence how the rest of the country submits their forms. It's not fair for everyone else who plays by the rules, to have their day-to-day business affected by one dealer that has no relation to them at all.



As I stated before, I think it's a terrible idea. They're just contracting with other FFL/SOTs and asking to be authorized users on their Eforms account. It opens them and the FFL/SOTs up to a ton of liability, and I will be amazed if the ATF doesn't shut this idea down immediately.

The more I think about it, I remember that I had to be added as a responsible person on our FFL in order to sign off on NFA forms. We had a few get kicked back when we started because I wasn't listed. Now I seriously doubt that anyone would add a Silencer Shop employee to their FFL/SOT, and if they do, they're insane.

So I would guess one of 2 things happens with this program:
1. Forms get kicked back because the ATF says that Silencer Shop isn't authorized to submit forms on behalf of other FFL/SOTs.
or
2. One or more Silencer Shop employees has been given authorization to submit forms by the FFL/SOT's themselves. In that case, I would think they're going to be held just as liable as the FFL holders themselves, if unlawful activity ever occurs. IE: Bob's Gun Shop gets shut down and their FFL revoked, and Silencer Shop gets tied up in the mess because they're handling paperwork for Bob's Gun Shop and are also considered responsible for any/all transactions. Even if Silencer Shop does nothing wrong, and never makes a mistake, they risk being prosecuted by the ATF for crimes commited by Bob's Gun Shop, simply because they're involved with doing the NFA paperwork.

When you submit an Eform on the site through your account, you are swearing that you are personally responsible for the information transmitted, and that you're authorized to submit the forms. Now Silencer Shop is taking on that burden for other dealers that they don't even know.

It's a bad idea all around, for every party involved. I'm no lawyer, and I don't work for the ATF, but I can't see how this idea is going to pan out well for them. I'm not even sure that it's legal, to be honest. But it's their program, so I would assume they've at least done some research and have spoken with lawyers and the ATF before proceeding. Either way, there's a good chance they could go bankrupt trying to defend themselves in a civil case that comes about if something ever blows up on them down the road. Whether it be a criminal case or a civil suit, there's just way too much liability at stake, so I can't imagine that the program is going to be a success.

That's not really possible. An FFL/SOT is required for every location you're going to do business in. Cabela's for example, has an FFL for every single store. So does Wal-mart. So for Silencer Shop to set up "franchises", they would need to apply for an FFL and pay the SOT for every location they want to use for transfers. They also need a physical address, will have to keep a separate bound book, get an ATF inspection, etc. It would probably cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, just to setup one "franchise" in each state that allows NFA purchases.

I would bet money that they're not doing that. They're just asking to be authorized as users on other FFL/SOT dealer's Eforms accounts, basically piggy-backing off their license. That's why I think it's such a bad idea. It's not their license to be submitting and handling paperwork, and they shouldn't be involved with it at all.

There's also no way to bypass the Form 3. An approved NFA form is required every single time a transfer takes place, even if it's within the same state. They're going to have to Form 3 the suppressors to the buyer's state of residence, and then Form 4 it to the buyer through the FFL/SOT doing the transfer.

The text on their site is most likely just marketing text, simplifying the process for retail customers. From the customer's perspective, all they have to do is buy the silencer on the website and Silencer Shop does the rest. So it's easy and straight-forward for them. But Silencer Shop still needs to complete the same Form 3/Form 4 transfer process as usual, and the dealer is still going to want a transfer fee for handling the suppressor.



Not really possible. Billy Bob's Gun Shack could list Silencer Shop's owner/employees as a responsible person on the FFL/SOT. That would allow them to submit forms, do transfers, and conduct NICS checks, log guns in and out, etc. It basically gives them authorization to handle all the ATF paperwork, but it also makes them liable for any mistakes or unlawful activity.

Otherwise, Billy Bob's Gun Shack is just another FFL/SOT that they can use for transfer. They may have a good relationship with the shop, and they could offer some type of kickback or commission for doing transfers. But from a paperwork perspective, nothing really changes. They still need a Form 3 to CT, then a Form 4 to buyer.

To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that a Silencer Shop rep hasn't already posted in this thread, and/or started a new thread with more information on exactly how this process works.

I haven't seen anyone make that claim on any of the forums I've been reading. But if so, it's definitely false. They might be making thousands of uploads per day, if you're counting each submission attempt as an "upload". But there's no way they're doing 1,000+ forms 3/4s in a day.

The ATF processed 137,000 total NFA forms in 2012, including manufacturer submissions and GOV/LE/MIL transfers. Even if Silencer Shop was responsible for 25% of all NFA forms in the country (which I seriously doubt is accurate), it would mean that they're submitting about 35,000 forms per year, or about 125 per business day.

I'm guessing their bulk submissions are more in the 25-50 forms per day, range. That's still a lot of suppressors, and a pretty large business for someone selling a single product line. But there's no way they have 1,000+ forms a day, and I doubt they even have 1,000+ silencers in inventory at any given time. Even the big distributors barely have 1,000+ in stock at once, and they're supplying a bug chunk of NFA dealers all over the country.



So the participating dealers probably aren't charging a transfer fee, and I'm guessing the $70 goes to them. They agree to transfer Silencer Shop purchases for $70, customer pays SS directly, and doesn't have to touch anything until their Form 4 is approved.

It's a good deal for the customer, so I can see why they want to do this. But the liability greatly outweighs the benefits.