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Posted: 6/21/2004 3:43:43 PM EDT
[#1]
I bet that was exciting!!
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Posted: 6/21/2004 3:57:22 PM EDT
[#2]
JJREA,
Oh it was great! I was at my gunsmiths shop and this person after showing me the two guns, tells me to watch the two rifles he will be back in 15-20 minutes, so I got to check both out thoroughly! He came back in 15 minutes with a large Pelican type case and in it he had something I had never seen before and I have seen most every type of gun out there! It was a pre-ban M14 SOPMOD conversion! The telestock was titanium and the chassis the rifle sits in is all magnesium. It had a pistol grip and a removable muzzlebrake or flash hider so you can slip on a can. This person was on his way back to Barrett to report on testing the 20" version M468 and just happened to stop in the shop while I was there! |
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Posted: 6/21/2004 7:40:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Is this the well-documented powder-clumping problem?
This doesn't make sense. What is special about this particular ammunition that it doesn't shoot well in stainless match barrels, but does shoot ok in chrome-lined barrels? |
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Posted: 6/21/2004 8:13:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Did he say what barrel length they were delivering to Special Forces? Barret has 12" and 16" I believe.
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Posted: 6/21/2004 9:07:27 PM EDT
[#5]
I think I know the fellow you talked to, hehe. He still enjoying Troy's SOPMOD gun? -Cap'n |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:07:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Hi Zak-Smith,
I talked with this gentleman for about 2-hours and he had a lot to say about what he has experienced testing for the military, various weapons manufacturers and ammo makers. So I heard a lot but I can't remember everything in exact detail and some I wouldn't want to repeat! As far as the problem being the powder clumping, he said something about powder but I can't remember exactly if that was it? I do remember what the other problem was that he said and it was this: The other problem was the ammo was being tested in a bolt gun by one party and this person I spoke to was doing all the testing for Barrett and the military with the Barrett M468 and was having problems getting it to run properly but he finally did. When he reported to the other party his findings they said they hadn't tested the ammo with a semi auto AR, only a Bolt action and I guess that makes a difference so they had to start over with a semi-auto AR type, the Barrett I think. The problem was solved after that change and hence the new ammo. I could go into further detail but I won't! As far as the stainless vs. chrome lined, there is a difference! I can't find the mag I read it in but I think it might have been in the Armalite catalog, it tells the difference in .223 ammo performance using a standard chromoly , chrome lined and stainless barrels. And each one has a different advantage over the other! I think it said the chromoly was the most accurate, the chrome lined the most durable and the stainless the most maintenance free! So there is a difference in performance between using a chromoly, stainless or chrome lined barrel! |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:14:10 AM EDT
[#7]
Hi Cap'n,
If were talking about the same guy, yes he is still enjoying Troy's SOPMOD! In fact I enjoyed it and I only got to hold it for short time! He had brought several guns back with him and he waited until the end to show me it but it was worth the wait! |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:16:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Hi Ahab,
Yes he did say what barrel length is currently being delivered to Special Forces and that is the 16" chrome lined! In fact The Barrett I held was the exact same configured gun with the ARMS SIR forend! |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:19:53 AM EDT
[#9]
I was also told that if I thought about buying one of the currently available 6.8SPC uppers, that I should wait until the Barrett upper or complete rifle are available because they are the only guns that are being tested with the correct ammo!
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Posted: 6/22/2004 3:51:37 AM EDT
[#10]
WHOEVER "HE" IS APPARENTLY DOES NOT HAVE ALL OF THE FACTS.
WHILE M.S.T.N. HAD ZERO TO DO WITH THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE 6.8 SPC, WE DO REGULARLY RECEIVE AMMO FROM REMINGTON FOR TESTING IN AR' PLATFORM WEAPONS. MY PARTNER, PAUL E., HAS MADE TRIPS TO REMINGTON FACTORIES IN ARKANSAS AND KENTUCKY TO ASSIST THEM WITH THEIR AR' PLATFORMS.  WITHIN MY FIELD OF VIEW AT THE MOMENT IS 1,000 RD OF THE NEWEST REMINGTON AMMO, WITH LARGE "NOT FOR RE-SALE" LABELS ON EACH BOX AS WELL AS EACH CARTON. IT RUNS WITH PERFECT RELIABILITY, AND IS ACCURATE, TO BOOT. REMINGTON HAS A WINNER IN THE 6.8 SPC. JUST WAIT UNTIL THE LOADING IS FINALIZED. OUR STAINLESS MATCH GRADE BARRELS LEAVE NOTHING TO BE DESIRED IN TERMS OF ACCURACY, EITHER. I WILL GLADLY GO HEAD-TO-HEAD WITH ANY BARRETT WITH A CHROME LINED BARREL. THE 6.8 SPC IN THE AR' IS A LOT LIKE A 327 IN A CHEVELLE. AT FIRST GLANCE, IT LOOKS MUCH THE SAME ON THE OUTSIDE AS A STOCK UNIT BUT PACKS CONSIDERABLY MORE PERFORMANCE. THE 6.8 SPC ADDRESSES WITH NOTABLE EFFICIENCY THE LETHALITY INADEQUACIES OF THE 5.56MM. IT IS GOING TO BE A HIT WHEN MAGS AND AMMO BECOME READILY AVAILABLE. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 4:12:29 AM EDT
[#11]
My monies are on Wes. 
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Posted: 6/22/2004 4:32:18 AM EDT
[#12]
yeah, the stainless barrel comment makes NO sense at all, there's tons of evidence to contradict that just go to a NRA High Power match !! |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 5:15:11 AM EDT
[#13]
I know the guy and he's right about 60% of the time - he is working with Barrett on the 6.8 and was involved from a very early stage with the initial development at 5th Special Forces - he is prone to a little B/S so don't take everything he says as gospel.
HFG |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 6:34:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Thanks Milspec-AR, interesting thread. I've been wondering myself about exactly how the SOF test guns are configured---and it sounds like they're going into the field with 16 bbls and the SIR fore-end.
Of course, lots of us are also interested to know who's using them, where, and how they're performing. I suppose that info will eventually surface, too...thanks. Will |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 6:42:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Doesn't mean you can't give it away, right?
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Posted: 6/22/2004 8:06:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Yep, sounds like the guy I know  -Cap'n |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 8:43:31 AM EDT
[#17]
Can't be too many of them around can there?
HFG |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:32:38 PM EDT
[#18]
THE 6.8 SPC IN THE AR' IS A LOT LIKE A 327 IN A CHEVELLE
Dang, Wes. You're really showing your age. I know you're showing your age because I understood exactly what you're talking about. "327" and "Chevelle" are about as meaningful to most of these pups as the best breed of mule to pull a conastoga wagon across the country. You gots to be talkin bout Toyota's with XYZ fuel/ignition timing/valve timing computers, doncha know? Best, SD |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 12:40:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Wes likes Chevelles, I'm kinda partial Pony cars myself |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 1:19:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Wes,
No disrespect intended to you or your fine products! I know you produce great uppers! This was the first time I met this person but I had heard from other companies like Leitner-wise that he was doing testing for them and others like Barrett and he seems knowledgeable! I thought his toys were cool and what he had to say interesting and informative and thought others might like to hear what he had to say! |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 3:17:20 PM EDT
[#21]
I never said that the stainless barrel wasn't any good, in fact I prefer a stainless barrel but in the course of talking to this person for about 2-hours, he stated that in all the testing done so far ( by him and others he is working with ) that the current ammo available ran better in the chrome lined barrels than it did in the stainless!
I suppose that may be one reason Barrett is offering the M468 in a chrome lined barrel instead of stainless but cost could be a factor also. |
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Posted: 6/22/2004 4:08:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Invoking images of the Chevelle in 327...one more reason to love the guy!
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Posted: 6/22/2004 8:16:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Missouri Red |
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Posted: 6/23/2004 6:05:10 AM EDT
[#24]
NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT, I AM RATHER OLD IN YEARS, WELL PAST THE HALF-CENTURY MARK.
I STILL LIKE THE BIG IRON MOTORS:  TORQUE RULES. TIME TO UPGRADE, THOUGH. MY GOOD BUDDY ROSS SANDER, LEAD INSTRUCTOR AT MID-SOUTH SHOOTING, NOW HAS ME OUTDONE, WITH HIS DODGE ST-10 WITH VIPER 10-CYLINDER ENGINE. THE 6.8 SPC STORY WILL MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING COLLECTOR GRADE PUBLICATION BOOK WHEN THE TIME COMES. I HOPE ALL THE PLAYERS IN ITS DEVELOPMENT KEPT COPIOUS NOTES. WE OWE A GREAT DEAL TO A LOT OF FINE FOLKS OUT THERE, FOLKS WITH THEIR HEARTS IN THE RIGHT PLACE. IT IS MY PRIVILEDGE TO BE ACQUAINTED WITH JUST A FEW. WES |
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Posted: 6/23/2004 11:51:24 AM EDT
[#26]
Wes,
What are your thoughts on the 6.8SPC vs. the 6.5 Grendel? Other than what I have read I know nothing more about either one than what I can read on the web. From what I can see the Grendel has the SPC beat on paper. Now, I also read that the 6.8 was developed to make up for the 5.56's deficiencies, such as 300 yard terminal performance, and was not intended to be a long range round. It would seem the Grendel outperforms in long range (or at least longer range) scenarios. I'm interested in the mid-bore AR concept and I'm just trying to make sense of it all. Thanks. |
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Posted: 6/23/2004 6:27:43 PM EDT
[#27]
COMPARING THE 6.8 SPC AND THE 6.5 GRENDEL IS AN INTERESTING INTELLECTUAL EXPERIENCE. EACH HAS ITS STRENGTHS. MY COLLEAGUE PAUL HAS A GRENDEL WITH A 28" BARREL ON ORDER, PRESENTLY. I PLAN TO GET/BUILD ONE, AS WELL, BUT WITH PERHAPS NOT SO LONG A TUBE.
EXPECT TO SEE THE 6.5 GRENDEL WITH 20"+ BARRELS COME TO DOMINATE LONG RANGE COMPETITION. YOU KNOW THAT IF AND WHEN THIS HAPPENS THEY WILL BE QUICKLY & READILY ADAPTED TO THE SNIPER ROLE. EXPECT TO SEE THE 6.8 SPC WITH 12" - 16" BARRELS KILL A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED KILLING. OUR HIGH SPEED SPECIAL OPS TYPES RELY ON SPEED, SURPRISE, AND EXTREME VIOLENCE OF ACTION IN CONFLICTS THAT OCCUR SOMETIMES AS CLOSE AS ARMS LENGTH, TYPICALLY AT UNDER 100 YARDS, SELDOM OUT TO 300 YARDS. FOR THIS, THE SHORTER, MORE COMPACT WEAPON IS REQUIRED. IF A 12"-16" BARREL DOES NOT HAVE THE REACH THEY REQUIRE, HOPEFULLY AN ON CALL AIR STRIKE IS ONLY A RADIO TRANSMISSION AWAY. WES |
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Posted: 6/23/2004 6:53:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Wes,
What kind of MV can we expect from a 6.8 SPC out of a 16" barrel? TIA |
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Posted: 6/23/2004 10:21:15 PM EDT
[#29]
I'm not Wes, but it's like 2575-2625FPS w/ the 115 gr Hornady. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 12:45:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Cap'n,
I only got to hold it for awhile and it sounds like you may have more knowledge of Troy's SOPMOD! If you do, then tell me what you think of it! |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 6:14:13 AM EDT
[#31]
CORRECT ON THE VELOCITY NUMBERS. OUR RESULTS HAVE BEEN IN THE 2550 - 2675 FPS RANGE, DEPENDING ON BATCH.
WES |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 12:18:36 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm picking up a SBR version after September, one way or the other. It's a real cool design, and it's the only 7.62N battle rifle that does what I'd want one to do, aside from the SR25K. Some fellows I know have been able to keep subMOA 5 shot groups out to 500M. It's really lightweight for a 7.62N gun, it handles well, and it's as modular as you can get w/ the M14. -Cap'n |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 12:27:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Uh huh... |
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Posted: 6/24/2004 12:30:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Saw one at Blackwater this week.....staff armorer was playing with it on our range. He fired one mag apparently. I believe he is evaluating the upper for use with the Blackwater prepared rifles for their contract shooters in Iraq.
The rifles that Blackwater send to Iraq have cool laser engraving on the lowers and the uppers are prepped in-house for their use. I should have looked at the damn thing but was too busy trying to diagnose my failure to lock back on empty mag issues.  He had two boxes of Remington ammo. |
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Posted: 6/27/2004 2:42:17 AM EDT
[#35]
I didn't think to ask what kind of distance the 6.8SPC is capable of compared to the .223?
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Posted: 6/27/2004 5:40:06 AM EDT
[#36]
Just screwing around with my ballistic software, the 115 gr 6.8 and the 77 gr .223 followed a very similar trajectory if the MV were the same. Both were very close in trajectory with the 168gr .308 traveling at 2650 fps. |
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Posted: 7/2/2004 2:48:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Lumpy, you're acting like we've heard this before or something  -Cap'n |
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Posted: 7/2/2004 6:55:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Here you are fellas......
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_M468,,00.html |
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Posted: 7/2/2004 8:05:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Will the MRP be available in 6.8?
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Posted: 7/3/2004 3:31:48 AM EDT
[#40]
It really amazes me that with all the available cartridges out there there is an effort to develop another cartridge. Why can't we make life simple and go back to M14s ....heck even FALs?!
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Posted: 7/3/2004 7:41:57 AM EDT
[#41]
Because they are huge and heavy compared to an M4.
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Posted: 7/3/2004 11:10:01 AM EDT
[#42]
THINK OF THE 6.8 SPC AS AN AR' WITH 70% MORE HORSEPOWER THAN THE SAME RIG IN 5.56MM.
WES |
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Posted: 7/3/2004 11:18:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Because the M-14 is not that great. unless you have a good armorer worth his salt. Too big, Bulky, finicky and old. Now I know someone is going to pull the ole' camp perry accuracy bit out of their butt-big difference there: match gun. Field issue then were not very promising, still aren't. Went to the range one day in Kuwait when my brigade just got the new, re-issued M-14s. Not very impressive even w/M118. No parts in the system left either. It had it's time and place and if you've got a good armorer then you might be golden. The 7.62 by all means is a good cartridge but try carrying a decent amount of ammo, IBA, camel-back, NVG's plus various gear and the rest in 140 degree heat and you'll soon be very tired. I carry an SPR sometimes and it isn't much fun holding it all day either. When I was supposed to get my M-14 I had to scrape up what I could, not very easy these days. I had an old WWII canvas BAR belt stuffed with 10 mags (the later cotton duck belts don't work too well-Ripped it up in short order)and a bunch of other stuff and let me tell you it was heavy before I even considered putting ammo in the magazines. The M-14/M-21 in limited aspects is a decent weapon as long as you have the proper support available and lots of magazines. The guys in my Brigade only got two each, no stripper clips bandoliers or chargers either-If memory serves me correctly the guys in the 82nd that got them only got 1 or 2 mags also.
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Posted: 7/3/2004 11:34:16 AM EDT
[#44]
USMC has done that with the DMR and it's VERY expensive. Part similarity seems a better, when you only have to swap an upper out. |
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Posted: 7/18/2004 1:48:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Velocity from an 11.5 inch tube?(My favorite)
And if these are going overseas, what mags are they using? PRI? The mag issue has got to be resolved, or this is going nowhere. 
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Posted: 7/18/2004 4:56:24 PM EDT
[#46]
The 6.8 pops out of a 12.5" tube at a very respectable velocity. I can't recall exactly what it was, but it wasn't anything to scoff at. About the mags... Where do you think all of the PRI mags are going -Cap'n |
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Posted: 7/18/2004 5:04:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Ah, I need a 6.8 Midlenght URX shorty... 
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Posted: 7/18/2004 7:25:38 PM EDT
[#48]
Kevin, Are you using your in The Know Jedi mind tricks? Because it's working!
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Posted: 7/18/2004 7:54:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Don't even go there -Cap'n |
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Posted: 7/18/2004 8:38:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Looking at the ballistics, I'd say that IF the 6.8 has a home, it's in the very short guns, say 10-11 1/2 inch range. It offers highly improved wound characteristics vs. 5.56mm in these weapons. It's such a niche market in the military, it may not even make it there.
I believe S.H. are the initials of the individual at 5th in reference to this thread & the article in "Rifleman" magazine. Maybe he'll autograph a few copies of the "Rifleman" rag. Hotgun |
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