Want to build AR pistol with rails, close to the end of the barrel what is needed? A Carbine length handguard for the 7'1/2 barrels of midlenght? and whould anything else be needed

Quoted: Weight is no longer an issue. (since the ban ended)

It is in NJ.

So just to reiiterate, it is ok to have a carbine buffer tube on a pistol build?  Even if it has the notches to accept a stock?  I'm wondering because I'd like the increased reliability and also in case I ever want to make it into a rifle I can do so.

Thanks

height=8

Quoted: So just to reiiterate, it is ok to have a carbine buffer tube on a pistol build?  Even if it has the notches to accept a stock?  I'm wondering because I'd like the increased reliability and also in case I ever want to make it into a rifle I can do so. Thanks

YES.
You can have a carbine buffer on your pistol build.
However, the sticky issue folks are talking about here is that if you have a stock "near by" you could raise questions from the ATF in regards to a SBR.

Keep your stock in the garage and the ar pistol in the safe in the house, you will be all set.

My "solution" would be to just not have any "spare" stocks laying around.

Of course, you still run into the "readily-restorable" BS, if they have a hard-on for you.

They sure like to make this hard.....

Can I put a sling on my AR Pistol?

I plan to. Would like to know the answer to this, if it's anything other than an obvious "yes".

Thanks!

“If adopted as a final rule, the proposed amendment to the definition of ‘‘pistol’’ will be applied to previous and future classifications of firearms…”

“…If a firearm previously classified as a pistol is found to be an 'any other weapon' pursuant to the proposed definition, manufacturers, current owners, and those persons who wish to purchase such a weapon would be subject to the restrictions and regulations imposed by the NFA, including background checks, registration and making/transfer tax.”


So, if I'm interpreting the above correctly, AR pistol owners will not be "grand-fathered in" when this takes effect?

See the new Small Arms Review Feb '09 page 18.
FTB clearly gives their opinion in a Q&A article.
Pistol to Rifle okay, but can't go back to Pistol without NFA paperwork.

sk

(Not trying to start a sh!tstorm)

FTB's stance seems to be "If there is any doubt, there is no doubt..... pay the fucking tax."

Two questions.

1)



Riddle me this:


If you have an AR pistol and an AR rifle in the same residence, what keeps the BATFE from using this argument to claim that you have the intent to create an SBR by swaping uppers?

2)

The letter in this thread:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=245366

states that you must obtain certification from the manufacture to verify that they were never assembled as a rifle.  How or what should one do to get that certification for a virgin lower.

Thanks,
Wes

Thanks,
Wes

Excellent questions, and while I'm not going to answer them, I will comment on them:

1) It certainly seems like it could be a constructive possession.  I think it has more to do with the intent (although I understand that this does NOT answer your question).

2) I did not go that route (certification), but relied on the vendor selling it and marking it as a pistol as a surrogate (since they only sell stripped lowers and not parts from previously-assembled firearms).  I have yet to buy a short-barreled upper.

Anyone on the late night crew have any thoughts?

Wes

The rule of lenity.

Sooooooooo, who are the top 3 makers of pistols and is it difficult to make your own.....  son't want to deal with the possibility of malfunction.

The same thing that says that plumbing stores are not in constructive possession of pipe bombs.

Intent.

If you are one of those that has a few illegal machine guns laying around, with a few re-activated hand grenades, heavy into neo-nazi group sports... Be prepared to be boarded... As long as you have a legal reason to possess... Notice that all the people that are charged with "constructive possession" are those that already have been arrested and charged with several other felonies. The "constructive possession" is a very hard thing to prove in court, UNLESS you already have a bunch of illegal stuff in your "arsenel". My .02c...

But intent isn't an element of the crime, is it?

Read the whole case. You'll see my point. Dude had illegal machine guns, among other whatnot. The constructive possession charge was an add on, to get him more time.

Probably more to show that he hadn't inadvertantly broken just a single law. A good bit of the time those sentences run concurrently.

Yes, and they add to his rap sheet for future prosecution too.

No, I understand your point, and I don't disagree with you.

His question was (emphasis mine) "what keeps the BATFE from using this argument" and the answer you gave *is* the proper answer to this question.

The reason I followed up by asking about intent is because the next logical question then becomes:

"What is to stop the BATFE from using this argument?"

The fact that "constructive possession" only applies to machine guns and not to SBRs? Read the code... There is no such animal as constructive possession of a SBR in the NFA or GCA.

Based on his assumptions, which are in no way correct, ANYONE that owned an AR pistol and a regular AR could be charged with that, because "all you have to do is take your pistol upper off and attach it to your regular AR...

Therefor, no, there is no such thing as "constructive possession of an SBR". GROG

does anyone know if its ok to take the butstock off of the 6pos buffer tube and just use that tube for a pistol im wondering if i need to get a special buffer tube or if i can just use one of the regular tubes for a pistol

My guess is that having a 6 position tube on a pistol, would make it a rifle.

Having a stock on a pistol would make it a rifle - possibly a short barrel rifle.

So what is the word about putting a sling on a pistol? Anyone..

Why not? They make lanyards for them, right?

have you heard that having a sling is not ok. i think ill commission blade tech to make me a holster for my ar pistol lol maybe an inside the waist band

I have slings/ Straps on all three of mine

You can use any kind of buffer tube, you just can't have a stock around that could be readily attached to it.  Lots of folks use a CAR receiver extension (buffer tube) and wrap something around it so it doesn't have the ability to readily accept a stock.

ETA:  This has officially changed based on the most recent letter from ATF.  You can have a buffer tube, but it must be modified so that a stock cannot be readily attached.

Question:

i purchased my virgin lower and parts kit. the plan is to  build a pistol then register as SBR down the road. the receipt just indicates it's a lower with serial # and a parts kit.

is that good to build a pistol?
do i need to register it as a pistol?
how do i do that?

in the FAQ i read about a yellow piece of paper, don't have that.

I have a virgin Del-ton lower that I had transferred as a long gun, but haven't built it yet. I'm kicking around the idea of building my 607 clone as a pistol, then SBR'ing it when I have a job again! Is there a way to legally build it as a pistol first? Can I take it back to the FFL and reclassify the transfer, or can I just take pictures as in the FAQ? I don't want to go to club fed - want to do it legally.

I've been spending way to much time reading this thread but I still don't think I've found an answer to my question.

Where can you find a stripped pistol lower? I'm confused, how are they different from a rifle lower? I think it is clear that my extra lower I bought I can't use since it isn't designated as a pistol lower but I don't understand how you go about geting a "pistol"  lower. Some website suggestions would be nice.

Thanks

1. You don't need a "stripped pistol lower" to make a pistol.
2.  A lower that is marked "Pistol" is EXACTLY the same as one not so marked. It will in no way change ATF's mind if they can prove you or someone else ever made it into a rifle...
3. If your lower was never made into a rifle, you can use it for a pistol build, period.
4. Even if a lower is marked "Pistol" you can still make a rifle out of it, thereby making those markings even more meaningless. It is nothing but a marketing ploy from some lower manufacturers, to sell more lowers, or to charge higher prices for them.

Bottom line is... It don't have to be marked with ANYTHING to make a pistol out of it. As long as it was never a rifle... never a rifle.... never a rifle....



Where did I put my beating a dead horse picture?

grog, thx for the reply, I deserve a beating and you can beat me down for this question too.

After reading through this section it sounded like when I bought my lower I should have told the FFL it was going to be used for a lower but what you're telling me is that I'm GTG since it is still in the box?

You don't have to tell your FFL anything. As long as the lower was never a rifle, you can build your pistol. They are simply transferring a receiver to you. That is all. As far as registering it as a pistol, that is dependent on your State/Local laws. There is no Federal laws regarding pistol registrations. They don't even need serial numbers if you are making them yourself, such as from a block of steel.

As far as it being in the box... Also doesn't matter. As long as it was never a rifle. This law is on the books to keep people from tearing rifles apart, making unregistered pistols out of them. (kinda stupid when you can just make pistols yourself, but whatever...) As long as you know where the receiver came from, and that it was not a rifle that someone pulled all the parts out of/off of, no problem.

In order to prosecute someone for violating this section, ATF would first have to somehow prove that your receiver was at one time a rifle, and that you or someone else stripped it and changed it into a pistol. If they can't prove that receiver was ever a rifle (that it ever had a stock on it), you cannot be found guilty. If they go to the manufacturer, and they tell them "Yeah, that receiver was sent out of here with a stock attached", or "it was a fully assembled rifle..." You're up feces creek.

It also does not matter what any forms say that receiver is. Bottom line is, it is nothing but a receiver when it leaves the factory, unless a stock is affixed to it, or unless the factory ships it as a complete rifle. Even if all the paperwork says "rifle". It matters nil. As long as it never had a stock hooked to it, it was never a rifle.
GROG

Damn! I may just build up this lower as a pistol version of a 607 then, THEN pay for the SBR tax and add the stock. It is a stripped receiver, but was transferred as a long arm, not a pistol. Anyone have a link to ATF letters on this? Don't mean to doubt you, but I like my ass just the way it is...

http://www.jcweaponry.com/images/ar15/BB.JPG

I would refer you directly to the NFA and GCA for the applicable sections of the laws. ATF letters are not "enforceable" as "laws". They are the ATF's interpitation of the laws, and may be incorrect...

Notice this letter says you "should" verify it was never a rifle from the manufacturer.

Also, to make sure the dealer does not transfer it as a rifle. (Which he should not be doing anyway with the new forms.) As I understand it, ATFE are going after dealers for doing just that. They have already determined that a receiver is neither a rifle, or a pistol. They cannot come after you for a mistake the dealer made in filling out the paperwork. They may go after the dealer. It does not preclude you from building your pistol using that lower. As long as you are sure it was never a rifle.


http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter49.txt

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt

Even though some rulings were during the "Brady Law" whatnot, they are still rulings on the ATF'S position on what a receiver is not.

If you want verification, I recommend contacting the ATF FTB in DC. They will answer all your questions to your satisfaction. If you desire a response in writing, their address is on their website.

Thanks - I read the link to the ATF letter, and it makes sense. I'll double check with my FFL, but I believe he booked it as a stripped receiver. He's a Class II mfg, and a Class III NFA guy, so he's pretty good on this stuff. I'll double check, but it sounds like I'm going to do it. This way I can have my 607 upper built as a pistol, and not have to recut it later when I can afford the correct lower and an SBR tax stamp. In the meantime I can at least shoot itn and build it correctly. I'm kinda psyched!

Don't forget the photos!

[violet]I picked up a few of AR Lowers Friday. The ones destine for "Pistol" builds, are listed as "Frame Only" ,the same as the others on my Receipt / Bill of Sale, but I also did the 4473 Paperwork for the Pistol lowers so they are Registered as a Handgun. There is no additional charge if you do it when you buy it.[/violet]

I haven't seen the answer this yet, so I will post it.  It seems from reading and searching around that an FFL can call in the sale of a reciever as a "rifle reciever only", "reciever only", "or pistol, reciever only".  Let's say for a moment that I am buying 4 virgin recievers.  Let's say my FFL called them in and put on his forms "rifle reciever only", told the background check people that I was buying "4 rilfes, receivers only".  Since these 4 recievers are virgin, but they were called in as "rifles reciever only", can I build a pistol out of them?  I was told that the background check and forms signed did not constitue the creation of any firearm, pistol, rifle, or the like, it is just a sale paper, and therefore because these forms were supposed to be destroyed 90 days after, a record of how things were called in to the Feds will not exist.  Can someone help me understand how things would work in this situation?  I have recievers I have purchased, and when I bought them, I believe they were called in as "rilfe, reciever only", not just "reciever only".  Am I stick with legally making rifles only for these recievers, even though they are virgin?

Since this thread is pinned, I feel it is important that it has correct info. Things change, and I know there is debate on these boards about a number of these topics.

Anyway, I haven't been posting much here but took a cut at correcting what I consider to be some shortcomings. At the risk of pissing folks off and "beating a dead horse", I am posting my edits, while still trying to keep the tone and general content of the original poster.

I leave it to the board elders / moderators / original poster to decide what to do or not do with the thread.  Some of the links still need fixed up which I will happily do.

Thanks,

fiver

(op edited inline below)
=========================================================================================================================



The Much-Shortened AR Pistol FAQ

Q:  I'm tired of my AR-15 rifle and I want to build a pistol out of it.  Can I do that?

A:  Short answer?  NO, you may NOT.

Long Answer:  If you pay $200 to BATFE, fill out all the paperwork, & have it signed by your local chief of law enforcement (LEO), you may apply to turn your rifle into a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR).  We'll point out here that in recent times, stripped lowers can start as low as $89.  If you're already going the SBR route, no problem.  If you just want a pistol, it's cheaper & much, much easier to buy a pistol receiver & build off that.  SBR folks can go to:

Link

for more SBR discussions.

Q:  Oh, I don't want an SBR then, I just want a pistol.
A:  Ok, you can build one from a stripped virgin receiver –– a reciever which has NEVER been built into a rifle.  Or you can just buy a complete pistol.

Q:  Wait a minute, I thought the Assault Weapons Ban banned AR-15 pistols?
A:  Happily, the Assault Weapons Ban has expired and is no longer in effect.

Q:  What about in the People's Republic of (name of blue state)?
A:  Go to the Hometown forum:

Link

Q:  Ok, they're legal in my state, I just want to buy a pistol.
A:  Quite a few folks build AR-15 based pistols.  Here are a few websites to check out:

Bushmaster Carbon15

Oly Arms OA Models

DPMS

And a not quite AR:
Kel-Tec

Q:  Those cost too much/they're not exactly what I want/I'd rather build my own:
A:  Then you need a virgin receiver.

Q:  What's a virgin receiver?
A:  A virgin receiver is one that has never been deflowered, of course :)  Ie, it has never been built into a rifle.  

link


Q:  Ok, I'm gonna buy my virgin receiver next week from my buddy FFL, but I wanna get a barrel today at the gunshow, say, one of these real nice 7" ones that are on sale.
A:  If you already have an AR-15 rifle at home, even a stripped rifle receiver, DON'T buy a pistol barrel!

Q:  Why not?  They're on sale.  This barrel will be the perfect addition to my AR-15 family... Oh.
A:  Yep, by possessing a pistol length (under 16") barrel without owning a pistol receiver, while owning a rifle receiver, MAY BE ACCUSED OF INTENT TO BUILD a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) and may be subsequently prosecuted and enrolled in the Federal Golf Improvement Progam - say, for like 10 years.

Q:  Well, it would get me away from my future ex-wife.
A:  Yes, but when you got out of prison you wouldn't be able to own any AR15's, or other firearms.

Q:  But I wasn't gonna put the pistol barrel on my rifle!
A:  But without owning a pistol receiver, just the mere possesion of the parts and a compatible rifle receiver MAY BE CONSTRUED as intent to assemble a Short Barrel Rifle without paying the $200 tax, and you could get the silver hookup.

Q:  Nobody's gone to jail for this.
A:  Oh, yes, they have:

http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170

link to Quarterbores Site

Q:  Ok, I won't buy the barrel today.  But I'm gonna turn this pistol into a rifle someday, so I'll go ahead & pick up this buttstock at the show.
A:  As long as that's a spare part for your other AR-15 rifles, you're ok.  But what if you don't have any AR-15 rifles?

Q:  Ok, suppose I don't have any other AR-15 rifles.  I'm gonna build my AR pistol into a rifle someday, so I need this buttstock I just bought.  I'm getting my virgin receiver transferred to me as next week, and then at the next gun show, I'm gonna pick up a 7" pistol barrel.  Oh.
A:  Yep, when you buy that 7" pistol barrel, you MAY BE ACCUSED of intent to build a Short Barrel Rifle (SBR) and prosecuted.  Because you already have a buttstock, and you don't have any other rifles that buttstock fits on - it only fits your 7" barreled pistol.

Q:  This is getting ridiculous.
A:  I agree, but it's been the law since the 1930's.  There are varying interpretations of some of these laws.  It is probably in your best interest to be cautious here.

Q:  Wait a minute.  You said I could build a rifle from my pistol?  But I can't build a pistol from a rifle?
A:  Correct.  Unless you want to go the SBR route.

Q:  What if I built it as a pistol first, then a rifle?
A:  Go right ahead.  

Any discussion about the Thompson Center case is a red herring.  Read the decision in it's entirety.  In a very short nutshell, it said that if you have one barrel < 16", one barrel > 16", a buttstock and a frame in a kit, you did NOT posess and SBR.  You posessed a bunch of parts.  The case NEVER stated you could switch back and forth from pistol to rifle at will.  Some legal experts have also claimed that the decision from that case applies only to the T/C parts in question, not gun parts in general.  YMMV.  Regardless, the BATFE has been very consistent - once a rifle, always a rifle.  It does not mater if it started life as a pistol or not.  To go from rifle to pistol you really have two choices.  1. Jail  2. SBR.

Q:  I've got my virgin receiver.  I've got my parts kit.  How long should my barrel be?
A:  Personal preference.  Keep in mind short barrels are LOUD.  Long barrels are HEAVY.  16" and longer barrels can be used on a pistol or your rifle.

Q:  I want the longest possible sight radius for my pistol.  Can I have the front sight base at the very front of the barrel?
A:  Short answer:  No.  You won't have sufficient gas pressure to operate the action.
Long answer:  You could go with a mid-barrel gas system like on a Bushmaster Disapator:

link to Bushmaster

Or you could use a full length free float tube & mount your sight on that.

Q:  Well how far forward CAN I have my front sight base/gas tap?
A:  If you go as close as 3" to the muzzle, you'll need a larger gas port.


http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/gas-systems.shtml

Q:  Wait a minute.  Aren't pistol caliber AR's blowback?  I don't need no stinkin' gas port.
A:  Then you're off to the Pistol Caliber forum:

link

Q:  Wait a minute.  I don't have a stock on this pistol, but the buffer tube is longer than my barrel.  This looks silly, and doesn't the BATFE consider the rifle buffer tube a stock?
A:  Yes, it can look silly, but no, the BATFE doesn't consider any length buffer tube a shoulder stock.  If you're building a rifle later, you can save money by using the carbine or rifle buffer tube.  It will be easier to make your gun run, as well.

link

Q:  Short buffer tubes don't run as well as longer ones?
A:  It's more difficult the shorter you go.  Model 1 Sales used to have a really short one, but they've discontinued it - it was too much trouble.  This is their replacement:

link to M1S

Links to tacked buffer tube threads:

link1

link2

Q:  Who makes complete uppers for pistols?
A:  Check out this tacked thread:

link

Q:  I want one of those cool side operating handle AR uppers that doesn't use a buffer tube.
A:  Olympic Arms is your friend - for a price:

Oly Arms

Q:  How do I put all these pieces together?
A:  You go to the Build It Yourself forum:

link

Q:  Can I put a forward vertical grip on the forend of my pistol?
A:  Short answer:  No.  Apparently BATFE doesn't like this, and the case law is unclear.
Long answer:  You can pay $200 tax & jump through the AOW hoops, similar to Class 3.  Or you can choose to be a test case - don't lose!

link to Quarterbore

link to sturmgewehr

Arfcom link


Q:  Can I have a fully automatic AR pistol?
A:  Back to the Class 3 forum with you:

M16 forum

Q:  Can I put a silencer on my AR pistol?
A:  Off to the Class 3 forum!

M16 forum

Q:  I'm gonna build a rifle, but I want to preserve the "pistolness" of my virgin receiver before I deflower it by building my rifle.  What's the cheapest way to do that?
A:  Buy a used barrel cheap on the Equipment Exchange forum and saw it off to whatever length you desire.  If you cut it less than 16" after purchasing your virgin receiver, either have another AR-15 rifle in the house or don't possess a buttstock.  You now have a straight-pull bolt action AR pistol.  Just remember to not vent the gas towards your face if you keep the front sight block on the barrel.

link

Q:  How do you know so much?
A:  Many of us don’t.  Some of us may be lawyers.  Some of us may work for the BATFE.  Many of us hold FFL’s of one type or another.  Many of us are military and / or law enforcement agents.  Some of us are mall ninjas, and some of us are basement dwelling internet dorks.  And there are even an odd few who are just plain clueless.  None of us can give legal advice over an internet forum.  So please do your own research.  When in doubt, contact the BATFE.  Do not take any internet post as gospel, fact, or legal advice.  

NO!!!! wrong answer!!!
Once you build a pistol into a rifle in cannot be returned back to a pistol !! (with the exception of the Thompson/Center)




EDIT: Oh sorry, my bad. This was already corrected in the post right above me. I guess I should read the entire thread before posting.

Actually... According to the letter you posted, you CAN do it, simply by registering your SBR or Pistol receiver as a "Weapon made from a Rifle" which then would allow you to make it a SBR, pistol, rifle, or whatever, and change it at will.

Winner, Winner chicken dinner!! That sir is correct.
I posted this because there are a lot of people the think  "once a pistol always a pistol" and they can change a pistol to a rifle ,which you can, and then back to a pistol without the form 1 and the tax stamp, which you can't. There are even a lot of forums (including this one at one time, read the 1st post FAQ's) that still believe it is OK and promote it as such..

Hi guys, can anyone tell me the gas bleed hole size for a 10.5 inch barrell that will make it recycle reliably?

Thanks