Today I fired 90 rounds through one of my direct impingement 16" uppers.  Here are some pics showing the Smith Enterprise bolt carrier group from that upper compared to the Ares GSR-35 bolt carrier group after firing 90 rounds.

These pictures here say all there needs to be said.  I will be going with a gas piston setup when I can afford one.  That is way more important to me that pretty rail systems or anything else.

Sounds a bit crazy:
Since this fits carbine length Uppers, you thin this piston upper can work in the bad boy .50 Beowulf Entry level upper? I am considering one and having a piston in a Beo sounds cool.

Quoted: Sounds a bit crazy: Since this fits carbine length Uppers, you thin this piston upper can work in the bad boy .50 Beowulf Entry level upper? I am considering one and having a piston in a Beo sounds cool.

I don't know what the pressure curve for the Beowulf is like compared to .223/5.56.  Ares uses two different versions of their system for different length carbine barrels to accomodate the different pressure curves involved.  Give them a call!

I have a suggestion.  You have a load you developed with your DI AR15s.  Could you try several handloads with your piston set up to find the one most accurate for a piston?  Then swap that load to your DI set up and see if accuracy increases.  If it does not it would only show that the original test changed barrel harmonics or something and would change the way the results would be interpreted IMO.  Just a thought.

Oh and the POF does not use gas rings on the bolt.  Dont know if someone answered that earlier.  Kind of annoying because the whole bolt and carrier will fall out the gun when you break it open instead of tending to stay in the receiver like normal.

I find it interesting that the #1 claimed source of accuracy reduction was "vertical stringing" and that was totally absent in the tests.  I also found it interesting that the groups were so all over the place.  One of the piston groups was smaller than 2 of the DI groups.  The shift from the smallest to largest piston group was over 75% increase in group size.  Found that statistically odd.  If you throw out the high and low groups as annomolies the diference for each the middle groups are only .119 MOA.  The high and low groups for the piston system were greater than that difference in MOA size for the middle groups of the DI vs Piston groups.

Heck if you remove the largest group for the piston and the smallest group for the DI the average group difference becomes only .025 MOA.  The standard deviation is all messed up on the piston groups.

Quoted: I have a suggestion.  You have a load you developed with your DI AR15s.  Could you try several handloads with your piston set up to find the one most accurate for a piston?  Then swap that load to your DI set up and see if accuracy increases.  If it does not it would only show that the original test changed barrel harmonics or something and would change the way the results would be interpreted IMO.  Just a thought.

Ooo, good, good! I wish I'd thought of that.

Quoted: I have a suggestion.  You have a load you developed with your DI AR15s.  Could you try several handloads with your piston set up to find the one most accurate for a piston?  Then swap that load to your DI set up and see if accuracy increases.  If it does not it would only show that the original test changed barrel harmonics or something and would change the way the results would be interpreted IMO.  Just a thought.

Good thought.  If the Ares GSR-35 makes it through the initial 1,000 round reliability testing without any major malfunctions, I plan to do accuracy testing from 100 yards using multiple different loads.

Quoted: Quoted: The highest part of the GSR-35 above the barrel on my carbine is the section on the gas cylinder just aft of the spigot.  It's the shiny spot on the gas cylinder with the red arrow pointing to it in the picture below.  The shiny spot was caused by the gas cylinder rubbing against the the underside of the upper handguard. www.box.net/public/static/htx28ncl8l.jpg I wonder if that bit if friction could be resoponsible for the accuracy loss?

Good question.  I considered shooting some groups without the upper handguard on, but I just didn't feel like venting all that hot gas directly onto my Leupold VARI-X III.  Hopefully when the free-float handguards become available this will become a non-issue.

Something piston related decreases your accuracy.  I look foward to your further testing.

Quoted: Excellent review. This should be the standard of reviews.

I agree...an excellent, well written, and documented report!

Quoted: Quoted: Excellent review. This should be the standard of reviews. I agree...an excellent, well written, and documented report!

Thank you kindly.

Quoted: Something piston related decreases your accuracy.  I look foward to your further testing.

Is there something you're not telling us?

I've been doing some thinking about the free-float handguard issue for the Ares GSR-35 . . . . . does anyone have an old ARMS SIR-C that they are not using and would be willing to part with for a modest sum?

Quoted: I've been doing some thinking about the free-float handguard issue for the Ares GSR-35 . . . . . does anyone have an old ARMS SIR-C that they are not using and would be willing to part with for a modest sum?

I think the SIR system will make your cleaning job harder, because you have to undo the top rail to get to the gas piston out.

Quoted: Quoted: I've been doing some thinking about the free-float handguard issue for the Ares GSR-35 . . . . . does anyone have an old ARMS SIR-C that they are not using and would be willing to part with for a modest sum? I think the SIR system will make your cleaning job harder, because you have to undo the top rail to get to the gas piston out.

True, but the SIR is the only free-float that I can think of that is currently available and that might work with the Ares system without having to be modified.  Who knows when some of these vapor-ware free floats will actually be available.

What keeps the little op rod bushing from possibly working its way backward and falling down into the action? Just a friction fit?

Quoted: What keeps the little op rod bushing from possibly working its way backward and falling down into the action? Just a friction fit?

It's a pretty snug friction fit and the bushing has a section cut out of it so that it compresses when insterted into the gas tube tunnel.  I had to tap mine in with a plastic dowel and mallet.

Quoted: What keeps the little op rod bushing from possibly working its way backward and falling down into the action? Just a friction fit?

If you are worried about it falling out, a drop of red loctite should secure it.

I fired an additional 89 rounds through the Ares equipped carbine without a single malfunction.  When pulling the trigger on the 90th round, all I heard was the dreaded “click.”  I kept the carbine pointed downrange for 20 seconds and then examined the ejection port.  The bolt had failed to close completely on the round going into the chamber.  The bolt carrier still had 1/8" to 1/4" of forward travel to go.

I dropped the magazine and attempted to clear the chamber by pulling back on the charging handle, several times.  The action was locked up tight.  The lugs on the bolt had just barely started to turn and therefore were engaged with the lungs of the barrel extension.  I finally had to slam the buttstock against the ground while pulling on the charging handle to clear the weapon.

At that point, I chose to pause the testing until I could determine the cause of the malfunction.  Upon returning home, a quick visual inspection of the bolt carrier group, chamber and gas system revealed no obvious abnormalities.  I cycled a couple of dummy rounds through the action with no malfunctions.

I next turned my attention to the cartridge involved with the malfunction.  I dropped the cartridge into a JP Enterprises chamber gauge and the cause of the malfunction became painfully clear.  The cartridge failed to completely seat in the gauge.  Here is a pic of a cartridge properly seated in the chamber gauge and then one of the cartridge that caused the malfunction.














I checked the headspace of the abnormal cartridge using an RCBS Precision Mic.  The headspace measured +0.008”.   That’s 8 thousandths of an inch longer than nominal headspace for the caliber.  Obviously the case had not been properly resized and that is why it failed to completely chamber in the Ares carbine.  I checked the headspace on the remaining 30 rounds that I had loaded for this test session and found two more cases that were not properly resized.

Since RVO is no longer a reliable source for once-fired and resized Lake City cases, I had decided to give the once-fired and resized cases from Scharch Mfg. a try.  That is the source of the cases that I had used in this test session.  This is the first time that I have ever had one of my hand-loads fail to chamber.  

Since I am confident that the malfunction was due to the ammunition and not the Ares gas system, testing will continue.  However, I will be chamber checking all the cases before heading to the range.  Here’s a pic of the bolt and carrier after a total of 180 rounds fired.

Looking forward to more updates!  Thank you kindly!

Was the round that caused the stoppage / malfunction a reload?

Quoted: I've been doing some thinking about the free-float handguard issue for the Ares GSR-35 . . . . . does anyone have an old ARMS SIR-C that they are not using and would be willing to part with for a modest sum?

Once a mid-length kit is available, I'll test the LWRC handguard for compatibility (looks like it will be a close fit). I believe the POF "Predator" handguards will work well with the GSR kit. Troy may have a surprise down the road as well.

Quoted: Was the round that caused the stoppage / malfunction a reload?

Yes.  That is the only time I have ever had one of my reloads not chamber.  That's what I get for trusting someone elses resizing.

I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on.

Quoted: I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on.

That's interesting.  The Ares instructions specifically state to remove the gas rings from the bolt.  I just tried to put a bolt with gas rings into the Ares bolt carrier and it still will not fit.  

It's also unusual that the bolt carrier was snug in your receiver.  Most people comment that the bolt carrier group "falls right out of the upper receiver" if you are not careful.

Did you have any failures of the bolt to lock back after the last round of the magazine was fired?

height=8

Quoted: Quoted: I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on.

That's interesting.  The Ares instructions specifically state to remove the gas rings from the bolt.  I just tried to put a bolt with gas rings into the Ares bolt carrier and it still will not fit.

I saw that in the instructions, but tried it anyway.

It's also unusual that the bolt carrier was snug in your receiver.  Most people comment that the bolt carrier group "falls right out of the upper receiver" if you are not careful.

The carrier has worn a shallow groove in the top of the Stag receiver. I guess the receiver was possibly out of spec, or my Ares carrier had a high spot.

Did you have any failures of the bolt to lock back after the last round of the magazine was fired?

No failures of any kind after the two initial ones I mentioned.

Quoted: I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on.

You should Take them off, They just create alot of unnecessary friction & heat.

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on. You should Take them off, They just create alot of unnecessary friction & heat.

There was no apparent friction or heat in SA fire, but I took them off so we are all happy now!

Thanks everybody for the inputs and feedbacks.

This question for Molon, Did you lube the BCG or clean the gas system before or after your shooting during the test?  Thank you.

Tim  

Quoted: Thanks everybody for the inputs and feedbacks. This question for Molon, Did you lube the BCG or clean the gas system before or after your shooting during the test?  Thank you. Tim

I cleaned and lubed everything prior to beginning testing with the GSR-35.  I haven't done any cleaning of the gas system since testing started.  The only maintenance that I have done with this gas system is to apply two drops of oil to the top gas vents in the gas cylinder after each test session.  The vents are easily accessable through the vent hole in the upper handguard; it takes all of 10 seconds to do.

very cool, I cant wait to hear the final word

300 rounds


I fired another 120 rounds through the Ares equipped carbine today without a single malfunction.  (I used virgin Lake City brass for the handloads this time.)  Here are a couple of pics showing the bolt/carrier group and Ares gas system after a total of 300 rounds.














The inside of the lower receiver looks as if it has hardly been used.  The magazines are still remarkably clean also.

Just for kicks (and to prove a point) I fired some 75 grain A-MAX loaded rounds from the Ares upper from a distance of 25 yards.  The 10-shot "group" is pictured below.  Check out the key-holing!

Very interesting...you are doing a great job...keep up the good work documenting your experience with the ARES gas-piston conversion kit!

My count is up to 500 rounds each with the POF upper, and the Ares piston in the Stag upper. No failures and no cleaning yet. I bought another lower so I wouldn't have to keep switching uppers!  But I keep switching anyway to see which upper I like best on which lower! I've also swapped stocks twice. Aren't these toys fun?

Quoted: 300 rounds I fired another 120 rounds through the Ares equipped carbine today without a single malfunction.  (I used virgin Lake City brass for the handloads this time.)  Here are a couple of pics showing the bolt/carrier group and Ares gas system after a total of 300 rounds. www.box.net/public/static/nyfk4lek3u.jpg www.box.net/public/static/jc9zq5kfje.jpg The inside of the lower receiver looks as if it has hardly been used.  The magazines are still remarkably clean also. Just for kicks (and to prove a point) I fired some 75 grain A-MAX loaded rounds from the Ares upper from a distance of 25 yards.  The 10-shot "group" is pictured below.  Check out the key-holing! www.box.net/public/static/0n9igns8zi.jpg

Isn't this a 1-7 upper?

How would a piston upper make the bullet keyhole

Quoted: Isn't this a 1-7 upper? How would a piston upper make the bullet keyhole

From page 1 of the thread:

"The 16” HBAR I used for the conversion is a new chrome-moly barrel (not chrome lined) of uncertain pedigree. (I think it was made from a Douglas blank, but it’s been sitting on my spare parts shelf for so long I’m not sure.) The barrel is stamped as having a 5.56mm chamber and a 1:9” twist."

Quoted: Quoted: Isn't this a 1-7 upper? How would a piston upper make the bullet keyhole From page 1 of the thread: "The 16” HBAR I used for the conversion is a new chrome-moly barrel (not chrome lined) of uncertain pedigree. (I think it was made from a Douglas blank, but it’s been sitting on my spare parts shelf for so long I’m not sure.) The barrel is stamped as having a 5.56mm chamber and a 1:9” twist."

whoops.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have put 350 rounds through my GSR-35 installed in a Stag upper. The bolt carrier was a little snug in the receiver, and twice in the first 90 rounds I had to use the forward assist to close on the first round out of a full mag, but no problems of any kind since then. BTW, I left the rings on the bolt, and it fits in the Ares carrier with no problem. I have fired 400 rounds through my POF upper, with no "break-in" failures. I like the gas plug in the POF system, to allow cleaning of the piston, etc., but have not cleaned either system yet, just inspected. I plan to keep firing and see which one has the first failure. I've been shooting LC reloads from Big Dog Ammo and Win Q3131, but have run out of the LC stuff, so all testing will be with the 3131 from now on. That's interesting.  The Ares instructions specifically state to remove the gas rings from the bolt.  I just tried to put a bolt with gas rings into the Ares bolt carrier and it still will not fit. I saw that in the instructions, but tried it anyway. It's also unusual that the bolt carrier was snug in your receiver.  Most people comment that the bolt carrier group "falls right out of the upper receiver" if you are not careful. The carrier has worn a shallow groove in the top of the Stag receiver. I guess the receiver was possibly out of spec, or my Ares carrier had a high spot. Did you have any failures of the bolt to lock back after the last round of the magazine was fired? No failures of any kind after the two initial ones I mentioned.

I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed.

Just thought I would share.

Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share.

Good input!

Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share.

Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far).

Quoted: Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share. Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far).

I assumed this was the case with the Ares unit and suspected it might end up causing some issues with "underpowered" ammo.  It would be nice if it had some type of gas adjustment.  My Steyr AUG has two gas settings that help adjust the function of the gas system to the ammo or condition of the weapon.

No personal experience with it but the AK Concepts DNTC brake advertises that it aids funtionality by increasing gas pressuer (yes I need a spell check).  Interested in any updates re underpowered rounds as I am in the process of getting my HBAR BM upper de-nutered (threaded w/DNTC brake) and have a GSR 35 waiting when it gets back.  Good luck.

Molon, thanks for the excellent studies.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share. Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far). I assumed this was the case with the Ares unit and suspected it might end up causing some issues with "underpowered" ammo.  It would be nice if it had some type of gas adjustment.  My Steyr AUG has two gas settings that help adjust the function of the gas system to the ammo or condition of the weapon.

Molon - I have an idea about making it work with underpowered ammo, actually I got it from Alexander Arms.  He bought an ARES kit and opened up the hole in the piston b/c the 6.5 is lower pressure round.  He reamed it out and it works perfect in FA now.  I wonder if I open up the hole just one drill bit size at a time and then test.  Is this sound logic or am I off the reservation?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share. Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far). I assumed this was the case with the Ares unit and suspected it might end up causing some issues with "underpowered" ammo.  It would be nice if it had some type of gas adjustment.  My Steyr AUG has two gas settings that help adjust the function of the gas system to the ammo or condition of the weapon. Molon - I have an idea about making it work with underpowered ammo, actually I got it from Alexander Arms.  He bought an ARES kit and opened up the hole in the piston b/c the 6.5 is lower pressure round.  He reamed it out and it works perfect in FA now.  I wonder if I open up the hole just one drill bit size at a time and then test.  Is this sound logic or am I off the reservation?

I'm a novice with this piston system, but it seems to me that if you opened up the gas piston/cylinder, you would end up with less gas driving the system.  I would think you would need to open up the gas inlet (and/or throat) on the spigot to get more gas into the system to drive it better with underpowered ammo.  Maybe someone with more expertise with gas piston systems can chime in here.

good thread ! thanks !

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share. Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far). I assumed this was the case with the Ares unit and suspected it might end up causing some issues with "underpowered" ammo.  It would be nice if it had some type of gas adjustment.  My Steyr AUG has two gas settings that help adjust the function of the gas system to the ammo or condition of the weapon. Molon - I have an idea about making it work with underpowered ammo, actually I got it from Alexander Arms.  He bought an ARES kit and opened up the hole in the piston b/c the 6.5 is lower pressure round.  He reamed it out and it works perfect in FA now.  I wonder if I open up the hole just one drill bit size at a time and then test.  Is this sound logic or am I off the reservation? I'm a novice with this piston system, but it seems to me that if you opened up the gas piston/cylinder, you would end up with less gas driving the system.  I would think you would need to open up the gas inlet (and/or throat) on the spigot to get more gas into the system to drive it better with underpowered ammo.  Maybe someone with more expertise with gas piston systems can chime in here. img338.imageshack.us/img338/1305/gsr35spigot01highlighteux9.jpg img408.imageshack.us/img408/4700/gsr35spigot01invertediv0.jpg

Molon - I don't have my upper in front of me, but I am talking about inside the spigot.  If that hole is opened up more, won't more gas be imparted to the piston and then to the oprod before it is vented to the atmosphere?  I really need to take mine apart and look at it as this is all theory right now since I haven't examined it thoroughly yet.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just got my gsr-35 installed on a barrel I cut back to 12.5" from 16".  When it was running DI, it ran perfect in full auto with a 9mm buffer without opening the gas port.  However, when I installed the gsr-35 it short stroked like mad with both Wolf and IMI full power 5.56 ammo.  I replaced the 9mm buffer with a standard buffer and it ran flawlessly with IMI ammo but wouldn't completely lock back with Wolf.  Looks like I need to open the port to .074" as recommended on m4carbine.net.  Also, I decided to the leave the rings on the bolt and it would not function at all.  Major fail to feeds and fail to extracts.  Removed the rings it functioned properly albeit under-gassed. Just thought I would share. Yesterday I opened up my gas port to .075 and headed back to the range today with Wolf 62gr, IMI M855 and ADCOM M855.  The Wolf did better today, but I still had problems with it locking back on last round and sometimes it wouldn't strip a round.  However, both M855's ran flawlessly.  I was a little concerned that it wouldn't run Wolf so I was thinking about opening up the gas port a little more but was reluctant.  Instead I called Denny at GTS and he said that ARES designed this for full power 5.56 ammo.  Well that explains why the Wolf wasn't working.  However, now I am frustrated as it gets expensive feeding the M16 M193 and M855.  I was wondering if a Noveske Pig will help with the Wolf ammo OR does it just need to be broken in more (only 150+/- rounds or so through it so far). I assumed this was the case with the Ares unit and suspected it might end up causing some issues with "underpowered" ammo.  It would be nice if it had some type of gas adjustment.  My Steyr AUG has two gas settings that help adjust the function of the gas system to the ammo or condition of the weapon. Molon - I have an idea about making it work with underpowered ammo, actually I got it from Alexander Arms.  He bought an ARES kit and opened up the hole in the piston b/c the 6.5 is lower pressure round.  He reamed it out and it works perfect in FA now.  I wonder if I open up the hole just one drill bit size at a time and then test.  Is this sound logic or am I off the reservation? I'm a novice with this piston system, but it seems to me that if you opened up the gas piston/cylinder, you would end up with less gas driving the system.  I would think you would need to open up the gas inlet (and/or throat) on the spigot to get more gas into the system to drive it better with underpowered ammo.  Maybe someone with more expertise with gas piston systems can chime in here. img338.imageshack.us/img338/1305/gsr35spigot01highlighteux9.jpg img408.imageshack.us/img408/4700/gsr35spigot01invertediv0.jpg Molon - I don't have my upper in front of me, but I am talking about inside the spigot.  If that hole is opened up more, won't more gas be imparted to the piston and then to the oprod before it is vented to the atmosphere?  I really need to take mine apart and look at it as this is all theory right now since I haven't examined it thoroughly yet.

Right.  I guess we are on the same page.  I just wonder if the throat as well as the port in the spigot would need to be opened up?

I have always believed that gas piston technology was really not needed for the AR platform but this thread is changing my mind some.

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Quoted: height=8 Quoted: Makes perfect sense I just can't for the life of me come up with a WAG as to why accuracy would suffer.  Great report, I will probably pick one of these up just because. I am in the same boat, but of course it is tough for me since I am not an expert *awaits someone else to chime in with the answer* hat BTW, what is the current round count and have you had any malfunctions?  I am really starting to seriously think about this kit.

400 rounds

I fired another 100 rounds through the Ares upper today without a single malfunction.  After a total of 400 rounds there has been no walking-out of the gas tube pin nor any movement of the JP Enterprises gas block.

Something I noticed today after doing some close range reflexive shooting drills is that the handguards seem to heat up quicker with the Ares system than with the DI system; particularly near the front of the handguards where the gas vents from the gas cylinder.  I may have to invest in an infrared thermometer to determine if this is actually the case.

Here is a pic of the bolt and carrier group after the accumulated 400 rounds of firing and below that a pic showing a comparison from the individual test sessions.