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Posted: 12/4/2005 9:09:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Tweak, what in your opinion would be the ideal torque number for the key bolts? |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 9:16:12 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 12/4/2005 9:23:03 AM EDT
[#4]
+1 I'm just not good with a hammer and a punch.  My FSB is a testament to that.
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Posted: 12/4/2005 12:43:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Denny- sounds like this cement you have is something that can be used instead of silver solder to attach Flash Hiders, no?
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Posted: 12/4/2005 1:04:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Joseph, that would seem to make sense but BATFE doesn't approve any adhesive as a method of permanently attaching flash hiders to make legal length. No logic, just their rules. I asked, they said no. Pinned and welded or 1200 degree silver solder. And I wouldn't put 1200 degreses to my worst enemies barrel. Denny |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 1:08:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Good question I know bytor offered a valid answer, but seeing these (below) I would say they sure look pretty indestructable to me.............  HI RES of LOTS of them |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 1:21:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Must be photoshopped!
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Posted: 12/4/2005 3:29:16 PM EDT
[#9]
no they are the BCG's from the drop in piston kit that there is a thread on somewhere around here
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Posted: 12/4/2005 4:24:24 PM EDT
[#10]
I assume you meant wouldn't? If so, why not? This seems to me like one of those ARFCOM myths that keep getting passed around. Every other group that needs to permanently attach muzzle devices seem to use the 1200deg solder method with no ill effects. Do you (or anybody else here) have any kind of documented facts that proves heating the end of the barrel to 1200 degrees causes any kind or measurable and\or meaningful damage to a barrel? |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 5:57:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Yes, I meant wouldn't. Barrels are heated to be stress relieved, at least quality barrels. By heating to 1200 degrees you impart stress to that part of the barrel. The muzzle of a barrel very critical to accuracy. Depending on the type of steel you can also change the temper of the steel. Why do it? Pin and weld barely heats the barrel, if at all and is totally safe for the barrel. Ask any of the real gunsmiths on this board if they think heating the barrel to `1200+ degrees is a good idea. I have no idea who these other 'groups' are. Care to share that with me? As to ARFcom myths I really don't listen to the noise. I do build custom rifles every day however and heating barrels to dull red for no reason except to save a little time or do it on the cheap is not the way to go, IMHO. Denny |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 6:00:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Those Carriers without gas keys definitely look indestructible but like I just said- they have no gas keys so it's a moot point.
They are for the ARES drop in (yes, drop in) gas piston system that is supposed to be out soon. There is a large thread floating around regarding the piston system (as well as gripes about the Shrike.) I know the ATF's stance about adhesives and locktite, but I figured they condoned the use of silver solder only because it takes over 1000 degrees to melt it and that's why they consider it permanent. Pretty dumb of them to not think that anything else that requires 1200 degrees is NOT good enough. I don't think 1200 degrees hurts steel so much as it might hurt the chrome lining- just a guess though... |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 6:02:09 PM EDT
[#13]
My wrist isn't calibrated in in/lbs. 
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Posted: 12/4/2005 6:19:02 PM EDT
[#14]
Metric, huh? |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 6:28:05 PM EDT
[#15]
yep
N/M all the way |
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Posted: 12/4/2005 6:48:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks for the post. The key on my Armalite came loose after two hundred rounds, turning it into a bolt action. I was wondering the best way to restake the screws.
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Posted: 12/4/2005 7:03:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Oddly it's the Armalite tech letters that mention "the book" numbers being too low and that they learned this after dealing with a lot of keys. Guess I should start looking for an in/lbs wrench of my own just to get a read on my torque value.
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Posted: 12/4/2005 11:56:20 PM EDT
[#18]
tag
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Posted: 12/5/2005 3:38:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Denny, thanks for the reply. What you stated is theory and it all sounds good on paper. I've read all of those reasons before but what I haven't seen is anybody actually ruining a barrel by briefly heating the barrel to 1200? There have been hundreds if not thousands of barrels with soldered on MD and with all of those you would think at least one person would have come forward with some kind of proof of the damage that method had caused? The other groups I was referring to is FalFiles and the Maryland AR15 shooters sites which are at least two that come to mind. Why 1200 over the blind pin\weld? 1. Anybody with a soldering torch can do it themselves. I do not have any welding equipment, nor do I have access to any so for me to get one blind pined means sending it out. That's a PITA and costly 2. If I ever need to remove the MD, I can with the 1200 method without ruining the barrel or MD. Same can not be said about the blind pin method. Just so I'm not misunderstood. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to really discuss this issue and separate truth from myth. All things being equal and if I had the equipment to do it, I would probably blind pin too if for no other reason then there is no doubt whether the MD is permanently attached or not. That said, I do not think there is anything "wrong" with the 1200 degree method but if somebody has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it? Thanks again |
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Posted: 12/5/2005 8:26:19 PM EDT
[#20]
I'm guessing this is the tech letter you are talking about. It says torque them down to 55-60 in./lb. Here is a link to the tech letter for anyone who wants to read it. There sure is a lot of interesting stuff in those tech notes Armalite Tech Note on carrier key screws Also, oddly enough, the armalite tech note listed in order just before the one above covers the "Heating the barrel to 1200 degree's" issue. Here is a link to it. Armalite Tech Note on barrel heat - Notice the section titled "Effect of heat on the barrel" |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 4:49:12 AM EDT
[#21]
Armalite Tech notes say any heat on a barrell exceeding 1100 degress F will cause structural changes in the steel, leading to potential steel failure later. I guess Denny was right that 1200 silver solder is a BAD thing to use since you have to heat the muzzle end up to at least 1200 to apply.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 7:45:27 AM EDT
[#22]
And according to the tech note, that is with milspec CMV barrel steel, which is supposed to stand heat better. I would hate to think what happens to 4140 steel at that temperature. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:25:45 AM EDT
[#23]
Is milspec 4150 instead of 4140?
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Posted: 12/6/2005 9:44:55 AM EDT
[#24]
CMV = 4150 with added Vandium is it not? I believe 4150 / CMV is mil-spec.
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Posted: 12/6/2005 11:58:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Well I could post a link to Bushmaster's site that states that full auto bolt carriers are illegal in semi-auto ARs  Just because some manufacture makes a statement like that does not make it true.Either way, to avoid a bunch of arguing, lets assume the Armalite's statement is true. So assuming thats true, where are all the reports from people who have f'ed up there barrels doing this? I know a lot of people have used the 1200 solder method so considering that and the way people like to bitch about everything how come no reports of failed barrels? That's really my main point right there and why I'm questioning this in the first place. |
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Posted: 12/6/2005 12:48:11 PM EDT
[#26]
most folks don't use their rifles to the their limits, minutia like that won't show up
Bravo Co's CMV thread |
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Posted: 12/7/2005 4:33:39 PM EDT
[#27]
tag
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Posted: 12/7/2005 4:52:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Just checked out my new BM boltcarrier and it looks like the staking failed to displace metal into the key screws. I guess I will restake them to be safe.
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Posted: 12/7/2005 5:07:31 PM EDT
[#29]
A known issue with BFI weapons 
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Posted: 12/7/2005 6:26:12 PM EDT
[#30]
tg
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Posted: 12/7/2005 9:44:13 PM EDT
[#31]
you're best off to pull the key, lap the key into the carrier, then reinstall the screws making sure they're tight, then restaking. At the very least make sure the screws are tight before restaking. |
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Posted: 12/8/2005 11:01:03 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks for the advise I will use it.
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:30:34 AM EDT
[#33]
Here is a source for a carrier staking tool. It may be a little more than many want to spend but the stakes will be repeatable from one carrier to the next.
Michiguns Staking Tool |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 1:47:45 AM EDT
[#34]
can't really get behind his advice to stake the screws themselves outwards into the key, screws are hard and hitting them may well loosen them or crack the shaft at the junction of the head.
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Posted: 12/9/2005 4:41:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Tweak:
I understand if you are not comfortable with staking the screw head out toward the key. Just thought I would pass the info on this tool on to everyone as it looks to apply the stake inward from the key side. Joe |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 7:42:56 AM EDT
[#36]
This thread is making me worry about my CMT M16 carrier that is supposed to be coming from Grant soon. I thought "WTF" when I saw the engraved "MP" on the bolts in the ads, but the letter made me feel more comfortable. Now I'm questioning it.
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Posted: 12/9/2005 9:44:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Personally, I feel better that someone actually had my bolt in their hand and took the time to mark it than to just have every bolt factory stamped. If they are MP marked, I'd assume they really were MP checked. Denny said he hasn't seen any issues with their staking...if you're worried about it hit it again like I did. Took 2 min.
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Posted: 12/9/2005 10:01:01 AM EDT
[#38]
How recent? Supposedly they bought a staking machine similar to Colts. At least that's what they claim. Most of the reports I have heard have been about old ones shooting loose. I had one from 2000 shoot loose on me. Amazingly enough the weapon was still running when I left the range. I didn't discover the problem until I got home and went to clean the carrier, and voila, it was quite apparent. I was hoping BM had solved the problem. Maybe it was just one that fell thru the cracks, or its sold stock. From your description it sounds similar to how mine looks. Denny, I have no doubt that any of the dealers here will 'take care of you' but if you are a PMC type and you're in the middle of some Ar-Ramadi shithole, how much good does that do you? Seems to me that stuff should be GTG out of the gate. Like Tweak said, who detail strips their car before driving it? |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 10:36:31 AM EDT
[#39]
That looks good, but I would still like to see some pictures of those modifide bolt cutters. |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 8:54:03 PM EDT
[#40]
JLM Why are you quoting me on this stuff? I didn't say anthing about "dealers taking care of you" etc. I just stated the I have sold hundreds of CMT/Stag bolts and BCG's and not one purchaser has contacted me about a loose key or screw. In my humble opinion they are good to go from the factory. If you truly are in an Ar-Ramdi shit hole don't worry about your CMT BCG, it's good to go. If there were numerous issues with their staking method I would have heard about it. People here are getting their panties in a knot about a non-issue with CMT BCGs. Pour out the Kool-Aide. As I stated not one customer has contacted on the issue and I have sold as many as anyone and people with problems with gear they buy from me give me feedback if there is a problem, trust me  There is no reason to shake folks confidence in CMT/Stag products unnecessarily. If I thought there was a problem I would be the first to step up to the pump and get it corrected. I am not married to any product I sell and use and I can carry any brand I like and CMT is top of the line in this area. Most of the custom builders and barrel makers have standardized on CMT, must be something to it. Denny |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 9:26:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Not at all. I generally think CMT makes a good product, probably the best of the Tier 2's, if you subscribe to that term. There are a lot of different carriers posted to this thread that look problematic, so no I don't think its a CMT specific issue. I am actually glad that more and more vendors are selling CMT stuff around here. The LPK's I have seen look outstanding. I'm sorry if I misatributed that 'take care' of you thing to you specifically, I believe it was another poster. Nonetheless that's something that you commonly hear around this place. Fine if you are bump firing on the range with your beer drinking buddies, but UNSAT for other situations. I don't think you and I would disagree on this point in the least. It should be done right the first time, without leaving QA to the customer, who all have varying degrees of knowledge about what is right and what isn't. Best regards! |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 10:09:02 PM EDT
[#42]
What are the Tier 1's? |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 10:19:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Anything marked "Property of U.S. GOV'T" |
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Posted: 12/9/2005 11:05:58 PM EDT
[#44]
Though, I've seen various FN A2s, and some Colt lowers w/ FN A2 uppers. The complete FN rifles were nice, but the FN A2 uppers that I recently saw slapped on top of Colt lowers looked like SHIITE. The rear sight specifically. The knobs looked like they were made out of cheap tin for a toy rifle or something. The few rounds I dumped out of it were accurate though. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 12:26:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Not throwing bombs out there, but I have only had one carrier key come loose so far and it was a CMT. With that said, I now have four rifles with CMT carriers and I think I am going to just get the tools to stake them properly ( as I said earlier I attempted to stake with hammer and screwdriver and the screwdriver did not 'displace' material, it removed it!
 ).
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Posted: 12/10/2005 2:17:44 PM EDT
[#46]
My new BCG...manufacturer unknown at this time (will edit).
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Posted: 12/10/2005 2:18:10 PM EDT
[#47]
LMT??? My LMT carrier looks just like that. (Uh, my Colt probably did too! But I don't want to stir anything up  ) |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 2:24:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Thanks. |
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Posted: 12/10/2005 2:34:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Per mongo's opinion here, it is probably DPMS. Thanks to this thread, I checked the screws and they were easily loosened. I was going to test-fire this on Monday. Thanks guys.
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Posted: 12/10/2005 3:57:24 PM EDT
[#50]
The DMPS carriers I've handled have a D on them.
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(I have been reading the manual lately- anticipating my middy build)
Great!!! Now please tell us how to build this magic thing?!?!?