Quoted: Quoted: We just parkerized a bunch of their bolt carriers, and they're beautiful.  Besides HK, Ares is the only one using an integral lug for the piston rod impact point.  This is critical to the long-term survival of a part like this.  Anyway, here's a pic of a few of the carriers. members.aol.com/gunfreak/aresbolts.jpg Just curious, but why is an integral lug critical?

It's a band-aid to deal with vectored forces and carrier lift.  All of the systems currently available; HK, POF, LW are not "drop-in" for a reason - there are dynamic engineering reasons as to why drop-in systems do not make sense.  When you see substantial round counts on this system then you can consider the viability, until then, the only systems that have demonstrated their round count reliability long-term are HK, POF and LW.  

Quoted:
Band-aid?  Excuse me?  Doesn't a carrier with an attached lug seem more like a band-aid?  Sticking one thing on top of another?  On your own forum here someone from your company recently referred to the integral-lugged carrier as being an "engineering nightmare".  The thread is now gone, but I'm sure some here saw it.  So apparently if LW could solve the "nightmare", they'd be doing it, too.  A carrier with an integral lug is simply the best way to do it, period.  HK & Ares aren't starting with a nearly 2.00" diameter bar because they like to make chips.  The vectored forces issue is another matter entirely, and has nothing to do with the integral lug, so why confuse the issue?  It's true that any AR piston upper has non-centerline forces acting on it (.781 inches above center, to be exact), but this is not a huge issue.  If it were, the HK G36 with its plastic receiver would be experiencing failures are a very high rate.  And as any Rhino kit owner will tell you, it was the piston rod components that failed, not the upper receiver.  I'm sure once the Ares systems start getting out there, we'll be hearing all about their long-term reliability.  Hopefully until that time, we won't have to deal with too much mud-slinging from the competition.

Mark S.


I'll try and explain matters to you so you see that this is not "mud-slinging", merely a discussion on the viability of piston operation for AR type weapons.  

The vectored force issue is critical to the success of this type of system; not only does this lead to bolt bounce, receiver wear and bolt lug damage but it also leads to broken and sheared carrier keys and associated problems which was precisely the cause of failure of the earlier Rhino system.  

The G36, contrary to what you have posted, does not suffer from this because its operating system remains in a straight line; it is not having to deal with an action spring in the buttstock like the AR.  

True, we use a separate carrier key and we do so for a number of reasons.  Should the key ever be damaged, it can be replaced.  The key is wire EDM cut to fit a wire EDM dovetail in the carrier.  The key is held in place by two allen screws which are not staked as there are no forces acting upon them.  In over 350,000 rounds of testing we have never had a key break, come lose or tear.  Why would it be an engineering nightmare to produce the whole thing as one unit?  Simply because of the machining necessary and the tolerances that need to be held to the key to ensure its correct operation - it would add around $500 or so to the manufacturing cost.  

This design solution is simply our take on how to do this and based on many months of study, modeling and testing, it is not a band-aid, just one of many possibilities.  

As a matter of interest, H&K are on their third carrier key design since they publically unveiled the 416 - I wonder why?  Another comment you made also raises our concerns - HK, POF and LW all carried out reliability testing before launching their respective products, you seem to be suggesting that Ares customers should be doing this?        

As a company, we welcome and respect any innovations and competition, we also value AR15.com as a forum for discussion and exploration of ideas, we are not interested in "mud-slinging" as you put it.  Ares need to overcome some disastrous PR from the Shrike matter and prove to their potential customers that they have viable and available products.  In the meantime I shall continue to post if I feel the subject matter may be of interest to members of this site.