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Posted: 11/15/2005 7:57:00 AM EDT
[#1]
Correct. The integral key concept clearly resists shearing and the pictured design is an attempt to use a shortened moment arm, thus, in theory, rotating the vectored thrust line forward of the carrier cut out in order to develop a more neutral rearward movement. It doesn't quite achieve this and as such, is more of a band aid than an engineering solution to the problem. Another and perhaps more effective way would be to have the pusher rod impinge on a ball bearing, however the capture and retention of the bearing would prove challenging. Modeling the ball bearing solution produced desirable results. In our design, we still require clearance for the cam pin which is not required by the other designs, the costs in machining this out of one piece are not worthwhile when they produce no benefits to the final execution. Every component in the system affects other components and they all need to work together. Our brief was to develop a system that at the very least, met the reliability standards of the direct gas system. It seemed pointless to design and engineer a short-stroke piston application without addressing why previous attempts failed. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:01:53 AM EDT
[#2]
So is the solution to lower the center of mass of the bolt carrier in order to allow the recoil spring to counter the torque of the piston force?
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:10:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Tagged.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:14:13 AM EDT
[#4]
I just wish that I could get an answer on if this thing is really available. Im still waiting on a reply via email from ARES. I tried calling a couple of times only to get a recording.
I really want one to play with. 
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:25:52 AM EDT
[#5]
No, it's getting the operating forces to act on the buffer and spring in a straight line rather than above them. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:35:41 AM EDT
[#6]
tagged.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 8:47:18 AM EDT
[#7]
I have several questions about this... What benefit would the ball bearing give you? You would still be acting on the carrier from the same location, right? Why is it important that you still require clearance for the cam pin? One more question... Why spend all this time "cramming" a new operating system in a package that wasn't designed for it? Why not just build a whole new upper and carrier, etc - or a entirely new gun? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 9:15:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Price. Price. And Price. Why would you want to shell out another Grand for a highly modded upper, or a completely new rifle, if you can shell out a fraction of that and upgrade the one you already have. Reading some of the comments here, I think I'll probably opt up for a L-W or POF upper to drop on my lower instead of trying to deal with half-assed engineering from a known Vaporware company. If Ares ever starts living up to label claim, I may have to change that opinion... but they don't show any signs of that so I'm safe for now. ;-) |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 9:23:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Here is ARES email reply to my question
At 09:15 PM 11/14/2005, you wrote: >Is this available right now???? If so please let me know. Im very >interested!!!!!! >Also how is the reliability with just using the small roll pin and the >piston operating rod running through the aluminum receiver. >Thanks in advance, Joey Furgeson Sir: Our parts are arriving from heat treating and the product should be ready to ship out within 2 weeks. We are not accepting funds until they are in boxes and ready to be labeled with a customer address. We will notify customers who have supplied their contact info that they are ready to ship and we will accept funds at that time. They will ship in the order in which we receive payments. Thank you for your interest in this product. The product is properly engineered and should provide reliable service. . Respectfully, Geoffrey A. Herring Ares Defense Systems, Inc. PO Box 10667 Blacksburg, Virginia 24062 USA Office: 540.639.8633 Fax: 540.639.8634 Web: http://www.aresdefense.com Email: [email protected] |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 10:54:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Because I have a $1800 gun and I dont want to sell it and buy a whole new one. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 10:55:11 AM EDT
[#11]
I will buy one when a vendor on the EE states they are in stock.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 10:59:15 AM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:15:07 AM EDT
[#13]
Lotsa testing there I see 
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:16:00 AM EDT
[#14]
I have received a lengthy response from Ares:
Erik, I'm combining your questions into a single email and will address them each. 1. Many people would like to know about the long term durability of the system. Most have emphasized that a round count of reliable function should be provided. How many rounds can be sent downrange before the GSR-35 is no longer reliable? If the question relates to maintenance: We recommend maintaining the gas piston system during routine cleaning of the weapon. If the question relates to when it will suffer performance degredation without cleaning, then it's a difficult one to answer directly because of variables such as environment, ammunition type, lubrication, temperature, firing cadence, etc. And finally, if the question relates to catastrophic component failure: we are still testing toward component failure and I will post that number on our website when we hit it. I am naturally biased toward the GSR-35 because it is our product. I am generally aware that at least one other manufacturer claims a (very high) round count on their system, but they are biased too and as a veteran of endurance testing of machine guns, I also have my own opinion of their claim which I will refrain from sharing. If customers are interest in how our system stacks up against the competition, then I propose that an unbiased evaluator shoot the various systems side-by-side, with the same ammunition, same firing cadence, same environmental condition, same maintenance schedule, etc. and report on their findings. 2. The "full auto" carrier has been discussed more as well. All new Colt 6920 carbines sold to the public are shipped with "full auto" m16 carriers, and they are perfectly legal, because they are without any other full auto parts and are incapable of automatic fire. Many companies sell the "full auto" carriers without need for NFA proof for this very reason. I'm not sure whether this will alter your position on the matter or not though. Just know that some potential buyers will be turned off if you choose not to sell without NFA tax proof. 2a. Your decision to classify the full auto carrier as an "NFA only" item is dissapointing. The full auto carrier is perfectly legal as long as it is not used with full auto M16 lower parts. In fact, there are plenty of companies (CMMG, Colt, CMT, LMT) that sell the "full auto" carrier without requiring NFA tax information for this very reason. I use "full auto" carriers in my ar15s to improve reliability, as they are heavier and have the extra metal to the rear. My rifles are not capable of automatic fire. Running a quick search on AR15.com shows that this is a fairly common trend, and I believe it will hurt your sales of the GSR-35 to turn your back to it. I really wish you would reconsider. I can't comment on why Colt 6920's may ship with full-auto carriers, but if I were to take a guess, then it may be because they also have larger hammer & trigger pins in the lower receiver as well as an auto-sear block, thereby making conversion unlikely. Our company policy is derived from the advice of paid legal counsel, and we are advised that we should acquire proof of NFA tax payment before shipping NFA-specific components. BATFE has a long-standing position on AR15 type firearms having M16 components, and our company policy is shared by at least one other company. http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/individual_parts_for_lower_receivers.asp 3. I'm seeing more posts saying that people are deffinitely going to get a GSR-35 when it is ready for shipment. Due to the nature of the delayed shrike situation, many are sceptical as to whether or not the GSR is available yet. Is the GSR ready to be shipped to customers, or are you only taking deposits at this point? Please let me know so that I can post it on the boards. We are not taking deposits on the GSR-35. Our carriers are due back from heat treat / phosphate today and another batch of heat treated parts should be back at the end of the week. What we are doing is taking customer interest and contact information and we will contact customers when the GSR-35's are sitting in boxes ready to ship out the door. When they are sitting in boxes, then we'll notify customers that it is ok to send payment and they will go out in the order that payment is received. 4. Members of ar15.com and me are wondering whether or not the GSR-35 is compatible with with standard oversized mod4 handguards, or are your handguards specially made for the system. Also, there have been questions about free float rail compatibility. Sorry if I am flooding your email, but this product has generated a lot of interest and questions that people are dying to have answered. Our handguards are commercial off-the-shelf components, with one of the dual heat shields removed from the upper handguard to make room for the op-rod and piston group. The system will not fit into a standard free-float target handguard. 5. I am VERY interested in the Black Lightning system, and I plan to purchase one with you soon. I have been discussing this with friends and have started a discussion forum on the system. I was wondering if you had any other information available for us to digest. Does it maintain its reliability after many thousands of rounds? Can the user expect to see an FPS increase of the projectile? If so, how much on average? thanks! The GSR-35 is very reliable and it maintains its reliability over thousands of rounds. We have tested for operational function and component longevity, but we have not tested with a chronograph, so I don't know the answer to the FPS question. When we have velocity data to share on this, we'll post it on our website. In any event, like the comparison to other weapons answer, the GSR-35 should be tested side-by-side with competing products firing the same lot of ammunition, etc. by an unbiased evaluator, because anything short of this could be biased and therefore unavoidably contaminate the true results of the study. 6. Are there plans to expand the GSR-35 gas piston page? Some photos of the real deal would be nice. Also, more technical data would be a wonderful help to the ar15 community. Maybe a velocity comparison between the standard gas system and the GSR? Some videos to show the controllability in rapid fire would be great as well. We absolutely will expand the GSR-35 website info, but filling long-standing Shrike 5.56 orders is still our priority so we will work in GSR-35 updates where we can. Thanks again for all of your interest in this product. . Respectfully, Geoffrey A. Herring Ares Defense Systems, Inc. PO Box 10667 Blacksburg, Virginia 24062 USA Office: 540.639.8633 Fax: 540.639.8634 Web: http://www.aresdefense.com Email: [email protected] |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:16:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Solution looking for a Problem
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:28:17 AM EDT
[#16]
fight4yourrights - "solution looking for a problem"
I may have agreed with you when you said this about KNS pins, but not this time. There ARE problems that result from the carbine gas system. If the GSR-35 was directed to a rifle or midlength gas system, I would only partially agree with you. The 5.56mm round relies upon velocity to be terminally effective. There IS a problem with a loss of FPS in a carbine system. An increase in FPS seems to be a trend with the piston systems. An increase of even a 100 fps brings the 14.5" up to 16" terminal effectiveness, and it brings a 16" up to almost rifle length performance... erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:30:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Hey forlorn, since your now the official ARES GSR-35 Mediator  , ask him how much weight it adds to the system, or how much it weighs.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:31:06 AM EDT
[#18]
will do
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:35:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Does not work with a free float system? My intrest went from very little to zero. I love how they try to claim LW round count is a lie lol.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 11:44:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Well I'm not sure what they mean by a "target" free float system. But, I'm not at all experienced with free float rails. From what I have read they seem to be kind of pointless on a combat carbine, and more suited for long range rifle marksmanship. But, like I said, I have no real experience or interest in them, so I'm probably wrong.
I don't believe they made any claim that the leitner round count was a lie. They may have hinted at it, and this is just his opinion as he states. Furthermore, there was no mention of leitner in his email, but I guess we could ASSUME that is who he was referring to. erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:03:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Now there's a real vote of confidence for their product.  I'll pass... |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:04:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Filling Shrike orders a priority? They must be joking. How many years has it been, and how many have received the Shrikes they put money on. This is really rich.  This should get interesting. I may have to pull up a chair and stay a while. 
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:19:01 PM EDT
[#23]
This thread was not intended to be a shrike bitching contest, knock it off. We are discussing the GSR-35, and I am still trying to get more information from Ares.
erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:20:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Being that I have no money tied up in the shrike I am willing to give the drop in piston setup a chance. If it doesnt work, I will only be in the hole $400. My loss.
I personally never thought of AREs as a poor company when it came to innovation and well thought out products. They do have issues with getting products into the consumers hands but if this drop in kit is out in a few weeks then I see nothing wrong with getting one. This will be a serious upgrade to all ar15's if it works as advertised and I do not see a reason why it wont. Remember a piston operated gas system is the only thing needed to make the AR15 perfect! 
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:24:38 PM EDT
[#25]
The AR 15 has a poor charging handle location and is not fully ambi. Add that to the list of what is not perfect. I still would like to know a weight and if "target" free float means all military free float systems.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:28:21 PM EDT
[#26]
In answer to Zissou, our carrier key extends above the cam pin in much the same way as the standard gas key does, hence the need for clearance. The bearing allows for a rotation of forces rather than a direct vectoring of them.
The other question was answered correct too. Concerning the suggestion by the Ares representative that the round counts by any one of the companies currently producing piston systems for the AR (HK, POF, LW) are fabricated is particularly distasteful considering Ares less than stellar reputation. If you want mud-slinging there it is! |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:32:33 PM EDT
[#27]
I was kidding of course about the AR being perfect. But adding a piston operating gas sytem does make it a whole lot better. ( A real reliable one of course!) As far as the chagring handle location, I think that it works just fine where its at. It out of the way and wont get snagged on anything. Just my 2 cents.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:33:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Don't forget that they have not given any reason why it will work, either, besides a few vague platitudes. LW and POF gave us definite round counts in excess of 50,000. Ares gives a vague "Thousands". Ares has 2 products listed on their website. One has never shipped out. The other does not exist yet. Call me a skeptic. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:41:04 PM EDT
[#29]
I have emailed Ares for more specific details about their round count and the added weight to the system. Also, I am trying to get them to clarify the whole "target" free float thing. Can someone give me some brand names of military carbine free float rails that they would like me to inquire about?
erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:45:30 PM EDT
[#30]
I completely understand! I own a POF upper M4 and would not trade it for any other AR type weapon. I am extremely grateful of LW and POF for bringing these pistons to market and standing behind their products. Its companies like this that keep our AR's evolving into the 21st century. ARES's piston is not proven by any means but someone has to try it out. And looking at the design of it, I dont see why it will not work. I may be wrong but only time will tell. It is so good to see that there are such qaulity piston op systems out there for the AR. I honestly cannot believe that it took this long for it to happen The only reason I had any interest in the SHRIKE is because it had a gas piston. In five years I bet everyone will be using pistons to operate their Ar's |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:50:57 PM EDT
[#31]
So why upgrade to a piston upper? What advantages do you get>?
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:54:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Less violent cycling (better reliability) Easier to clean and maintain since carbon is not deposited in the action Increase in FPS, which extends the lethal range of the 5.56mm |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:58:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Im starting to ramble on now but I grew up on ar15's I have been shooting them since I was 4 years old. I am 30 now. My Dad taught me to shoot his SP1 a long time ago. When I went to basic training and recieved a brand new FN A2 back in 1992 I loved it. The problem was that when we began BRM I couldnt beleive all of the rifles malfunctioning. We did have old shitty magazines but so do our troops in combat. There is no reason why the reliabilty issue of the AR should not have been addressed years ago.
The direct gas works but is to sensitive to temperature, different types of ammo, barrel length etc. And as we all know it shits where it eats. Grunts do not need to have to worry about keeping their weapons spotless at all times. A piston solves these issues. POF, LW , HK and possibly ARES has the fix. Jump on them. Money well spent in my book! |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 12:58:35 PM EDT
[#34]
How is FPS increased?
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Posted: 11/15/2005 1:02:12 PM EDT
[#35]
More consistant reliability!!!! Yes there is no doubt that you can make direct gas guns run but not on the level and consistancy as gas piston guns. I hate AK47's but they always shoot! |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 1:04:22 PM EDT
[#36]
piston system requires less gas pressure to reliably cycle the bolt At least this seems to be how the leitner system works. Leitner claims about 150 to 200 fps (not sure if thats m193 or m855) increase over a direct impingement. That is a LOT. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 2:28:41 PM EDT
[#37]
That seems outrageously high. The difference in gas pressure cannot be that much in my opinion. It could be possible, but it seems highly suspicious. I remember when HK was claiming on the order of 8% increase with their polygonal twist rifling versus standard rifling. Would love to see some comparrisons done. How do you disassemble the gas system on this gun? How does it work with free-float tubes? |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 2:39:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Promised orders shipped by April 2000 September 2000 January 2001 You get the idea.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 2:42:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Some people on here have no idea of the Flem flam job ARES Shrike upper and they deserve to know what a con game ARES does to sucker potential buyers on the Unicorns they pimp. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 2:55:50 PM EDT
[#40]
What I would like to know is how they finance all this. Aside from the funds for items never delivered, where the hell does the money come from for them to stay open? Do they actually sell anything? Someone enlighten me please. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 3:09:43 PM EDT
[#41]
WS4LIF, There are two big advantages that I don't think anyone has touched on. Gas pistons run much, much cleaner as has been noted. However this becomes multiplied exponentially when you run a sound suppressor (AKA silencer) since the increased front pressure causes much more fouling. The gas piston makes this much less of a problem. Another big problem with M16s and AR15s when used to rapid fire, on full auto or for extended periods of sustained fire is the bolt group can get very hot, to the point where extractors cease to function as they should, and failures can occur. With a gas piston, the bolt group runs much, much cooler since the extremely hot combustion gases do not enter the bolt group. As for the reliability being an advantage of a gas piston system, I personally believe it helps reliability, but I can't prove it in theory or in fact, and this issue has been argued ad nauseum on this forum, so good luck with that. They are certainly as reliable as direct impingement. All told IMO the advantages outweigh the disadvantages with a well designed and executed gas piston system. We do not yet know if the Ares system is one of these. 
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Posted: 11/15/2005 3:16:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Well said DR. Thanks for pointing out the heat issue. That is exactly true. After 90 rounds of sustained fire I can still pull by bolt carrier out and hold it. I cannot do the same with my direct gas gun.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 3:40:54 PM EDT
[#43]
We are talking about the specifics of the GSR-35, not the history of the company. Ares is not asking for a deposit on the GSR and they indicate that it will be ready to ship in a few weeks. We have had plenty of sarcasm regarding the shrike. If you want to inform the ar15 community of the shrike development and lack of shipment, start your own thread, because we have heard enough about the "shrike vapor ware here". If you still feel the urge to complain on this thread, read this, go get your thousand dollar deposit back, and quit your bitching. erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 3:49:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Not to stir the steaming pot, but...
What is the process to disassemble the Ares piston? Does anyone have images of the individual components? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 4:36:41 PM EDT
[#45]
tagged
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Posted: 11/15/2005 4:41:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Well, can't wait to hear more on this one. This could be quite nice. I'd be willing to drop it in my rifle and give it a go, assuming I had $400.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 4:42:29 PM EDT
[#47]
ah sh*t. I was just being rude again.
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Posted: 11/15/2005 5:13:05 PM EDT
[#48]
No I do not think LW should leave. Comparisons between the Ares setup and the LW setup are fine with me. Same with the POF and the HK. However, I think the LW and POF are going to come out on top regardless of how you cut it. The only problem with LW and POF is that they aren't as friendly to people who want to build and maintain their own uppers. The Ares setup will allow you to build your own uppers and drop a gas piston in. For me, this is a better option than getting a LW or POF, because I can customize my upper. LW and POF uppers are generally a flattop (I want an A1) and I'm not sure if you can get a 14.5 with perm attachment or any other custom barrel setup. I'm also not in need of railed gas blocks or front flips sights, which is all I see on the POF site. I know that I could send in my upper to LW and have it converted, but I think I read somewhere that they aren't going to be doing this forever. So, what happens when it comes time to swap out your LW barrel down the road when they are no longer doing conversions? Do they plan to sell barrels by themselves, or will we be forced to buy a whole new upper? Forgive me for straying off topic in responding to your rude post. I started this thread to discuss the specifics of the GSR-35. I have been getting annoyed with all of the shrike sarcasm, because it really doesn't have anything to do with the technical aspects of the GSR. One line posts like: ares defense...?  BRING NOTHING TO THE THREAD So, I have been trying to get people to stop that since we have heard enough about the shrike on this thread. "Everyone quit asking what this has to do with the Shrike and quit stating what you think it has to do with the Shrike. Both sides have been coverd." That is essentially what I was trying to say, and you put it quite well right there. Telling me to shut up is somewhat rude and ungrateful considering that I started this thread and have been trying to gather as much technical information about the GSR-35, so that I can post it here for all to see. I can research this product on my own. I simply wanted to compare notes and see what others thought. That being said, if you would rather I just shut up, then so be it. I'm fine keeping what I find for the personal benefit of my new build. erik |
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Posted: 11/15/2005 5:20:32 PM EDT
[#49]
It seems that every good topic turns into a fight or pissing contest of some sort. We are men and I guess that is our nature!Haha! Still I always find very good and knowledgeable information after reading through the bullshit. Keep it coming.........................
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Posted: 11/15/2005 5:20:33 PM EDT
[#50]
forlornwarrior please don't shut up. I appreciate the time you are taking to research the GSR-35, and would like to see any info you get on it. I am very excited about the possibilities of this system, and really want for it to work. Thank you for your efforts.
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