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Now I have A Woody!!
Is the Furniture green?
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Yes, that is a real deal Colt's Model 01/601 with green furniture from the first batch of AR-15's that Colt's made. It would have a 1/14 twist. |
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Any Idea where I can get a 1/14 twist lightweight barrel?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!!
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Dang, good eye, can't believe you busted me just be looking at that picture. I did get the correct one today, and a heavy firing pin. Also got a Model 01 charging handle, going to convert that 602 clone into a 601, need a few more parts............ |
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If I knew, I would have one. |
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like a Armalite duckbill FH ?? |
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Why yes, it is on the way, actually that one part will be a repro. Also got a green grip today, I think I can match the color, and paint a buttstock and handguard set to match. Ahem, and it won't have a silent sling on it... |
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+1 |
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KKF will make a repo 1/14 barrel, He also makes Repo Duck bill Flashhiders!! WOuld it be legal to stamp ARMALITE on the side of an old SP1; Just to get the effect right!! |
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The glass is half full ....
http://img132.exs.cx/img132/4729/allm16upper7xv.jpg Some day I'll have an old school clone. |
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I had Olympic Arms make me a 1/14 superlightweight (SP1 profile) back in the Mid 1980s, I have been looking for an Original 1/14 for over 20 Yrs with No luck!!, A buddy of mine in the NY Air National Guard checked every early rifle he came across & never could find one. I think I am going to give up again & have Kurt make one for me! Does anyone know What was the barrel diameter of the Very Early (Late 50s) Armalite AR15 Rifles? |
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Agreed that they are hard to find, but being that there is a war on, there is lots of surplus Air Force stuff on the market at the moment, I am holding out. |
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Here's mine: Bushmaster 56xxx S/n and M-16A1 upper. Just like I carried in the Marines!
http://home.comcast.net/~csehmel/Ar15.JPG |
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Need the proper bolt group for a 1965-1969 or so USGI project?:
www.auctionarms.com/Search/DisplayItem.cfm?ItemNum=6343838 Bolt groups during this time from for the Colt's XM16E1, M16A1, XM177E1, and late Air Force M16 (Model 604), etc used carrier keys that where staked with one square stake on each allen screw, right next to each other, like in the photo (same as the earlier stuff). There was no C stamped on the carrier, that came later, after the DOD gave away Colt's specs to others in a open bid process. Bolt's were marked MP, no C marks. Again, Colt's did not start marking bolts "C" until others started making M16A1's. I just talked to Rich on the phone, and he has a few variations. Some are marked MPC, those would be later bolts. Also got the idea some are marked MP, but do not have Colt's diagonal cuts right behind the bolt lugs, I suppose those would be H&R or Hydromatic bolts? Ive got a couple with the diagonal cuts cuts comming. Going set those aside for a future XM177E2, and a XM16E1 project. |
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Here's one of my favorite M16 look-alike....
PWA Lower, M16A0 upper receiver (no FA, no deflector), pencil barrel (1 in 12), early pistol grip, A0 / A1 buttstock, triangular handguards, chrome notchless bolt carrier & bolt, solid firing pin retainer pin, straight delta ring, later 3-prong suppressor. The receivers, delta ring and charging handle were refinished by Arizona Response Systems to match the old Colt gray anodized color. Very light in weight and shoots quite well. |
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Thanks for the Info, I Just picked up a Slab sided Chrome Carrier on the EE with the square stakings, I was wondering about those stake marks. I picked up a Non chrome smooth carrier that came with a chrome bolt labeled MP (But No "C") & I was wondering why there was no "C" ; Thanks again for the info. |
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Good score, sounds like real deal parts. |
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Did some of the earlier M16 uppers have the birdcage flash hiders, or was that stricly an A1 feature?
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It depends on how early you are talking about, The real early M16 Uppers had the DuckBill F/H, FOllowed by the easier the Mfg 3 prong, The bird cage did not show up until 66 0r 67 after guys were complaining about catching the open prongs on vegatation in the jungle (Or so I heard). Does anyone know What was the barrel diameter of the Very Early (Late 50s) Armalite AR15 Rifles?] |
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Got mine today, they exactly what I expected. He has them relisted here: www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6366411 That is a great price on a USGI bolt/carrier group, if you are a stickler for detail, better snag em up. Edited to ad: Just checked one of the bolts, it does not have a extractor buffer, as it should with a earlier bolt. |
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Got mine today, they exactly what I expected. He has them relisted here: www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6366411 That is a great price on a USGI bolt/carrier group, if you are a stickler for detail, better snag em up. Edited to ad: Just checked one of the bolts, it does not have a extractor buffer, as it should with a earlier bolt. Ekie, Over the years I've Inspected a large number of original nonrebuilt M16A1's. The last few years I've actually been compiling data sheets on those still in the system for posterities sake before they are all rebuilt into A2's or A4's so maybe this can be of help to you. The earliest Colt M16A1's (not XM16E1's) all have the raised mag fence. The receivers are roll marked Colt AR-15 under the pony in addition to being marked M16A1 above the serial number. These rifles fall into the 800,XXX serial range and can be found with the unmarked carriers with the earlier single square staking of the key screws and MP marked bolts, or the C marked carriers with the later double staked key screws and MPC marked bolts. These were probably transitional rifles made after contracts had been let to H&R and GM and utilized the last of the earlier parts on hand at Colt. I doubt the difference in the MP marked bolts via the presence or absence of the "diagonal cuts" behind the locking lugs can be attributed to a certain manufacturer as far as military bolts go. They are the result of machining the bevel into the leading edge of the lug to assit in locking(not binding) into the corresponding lugs of the barrel collar. All military bolts will have this bevel, the diagonal cuts seen on the body of the bolt are the result of the depth of the endmill used to cut this relief. While it may appear more pronounced on some bolts and nonexistant on others is due to random slight variances in manufacturing. It may also be of interest that every H&R produced M16A1 I've inspected have had complete COLT produced bolt carrier assemblies in them, C carriers, MPC bolts, C extractors. GM produced M16A1's also utilized Colt MPC marked bolts and C extractors. Though they did use unmarked carriers that were either made by them or for them. They are easily identifialbe from unmarked colt carriers in that they have rather rough appearing distinct horizontal machining marks on sides from the retaining pin hole forward. The barrels used by all three manufacturers during this period are also very similar if not all also produced by Colt. They are all MP marked between the rings of the FSB and are marked with a lone C about an inch behind the muzzle indicating they have chrome chambers only. The FSB are milled smooth on the front and rear surfaces and most will be devoid of forge codes. So it seems that while there were three manufacturers of complete rifles many of the components were all supplied by Colt. This should come as no surprise as it was comon practice during WWII as witnessed by M1 Carbine production and to a lesser extent M1911's. Wpns Man |
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Nice find, Were the early green parts just Painted green? Or were they green Through & Through? How about brown, I remember seeing some brown furniture on some old AR15s, Was it origional or a paint job? |
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Some help? Wow, great info.
I had not been able to tack down when the mag fence was added, other then that I had never seen a M16A1 that did not have a mag fence. With your additional info, I would say it is safe to say all M16A1's had them. This would also mean that there should have been a few late XM16E1's with mag fences? Never saw one myself.
All the M16A1 rifle I have been around were rebuilds, and I had never seen a bolt marked in a way that I knew it was a H&R for example. So I had thought that the old M16A1 bolt without the cuts were not Colt's. Also note that TBR, and TBR II make no mention of markings on H&R or GM bolts. With your additional info, we can say there is no such thing as a H&R or GM bolt. I can go along with your theory that the cuts and lack of cuts on the M16A1 are attributed to manufacturing variance. But, I am convinced that no other manufacture has made bolts with these cuts, and that Colt's dropped the cuts over 20 years ago. Take a look at a modern FNMI bolt marked MPF, or a bolt out of a brand new Colt's M4, neither will have these cuts in them.
Great info on the smaller parts too. What about extractor spring buffers? We got new buffers and extractor springs on a regular basis for our M16A1's, so I did not have any idea what they had to start with based on what we had in the armory. Only by looking at original SP1, and Air Force stuff can I get an idea what was original. Both Black Rifle books lack much info on these. Near as I can figure, not until M16A1 production was well under way that the buffer was introduced. First ones where white, later orange/red. The blue buffer still being used was introduced either at the end of Colt's M16A2 production, or right after. Of course, the black buffer with gold spring is a rather recent M4 only thing. Those machining marks on GM bolt carriers, are they on both sides?
Never crossed my mind, but yeah, never seen a H&R or GM marked barrel, duh. |
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Well, the first hundered or so Colt's Model 01 rifles had brown furniture. Then they were brown with green paint. Then black of course. I think I can duplicate that green color, and just paint me up a set of guards and buttstock. The grip I have, if you put it up to the light and look close where the paint is chipped, you can see that it is brown under the paint |
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WpnsMan I have never seen a XM16E1 that had the mag fence on the receiver either. Not saying it isn't a possibility but I doubt it.
WpnsMan The major point I was trying to convey is that the presence of these "cuts" to one degree or another is an indication that the leading edge of the bolt has been correctly beveled. Some are more pronounced than others due to slight variances. I have noticed that on older manufactured bolts they appear more as the "diagonal cuts" you describe on the body of the bolt. On most of the newer manufactured bolts they will appear a semi-circular cuts made by a very small endmill, if at all. But once again this is from slight variances in manufacturing that can probably be attributed to cutter depth and/or wear. And yes I have noticed this pattern on newer production Colt and FN products, again to one extent or another. The reason it is less evident today can probably be attributed to the use of precision CNC machines that were not available in the past. Most of the lower end commercial bolts won't have these bevels and I believe the lack of this plus dubious heat treating and materials contributes to the premature failure of comercial bolts as compared to GI.
WpnsMan The machining marks on GM carriers are found on both sides. It's just more noticeable on the left side as there are aren't as many other cuts as found on the right side, aka the FA notches and EPC cam. As to the extractor springs, none of them(Colt, H&R and GM) manufactured during this time had any buffers/inserts in them. The springs themselves are also noticeably longer, by say 1 coil or so. I have only seen the inserts used on latter production Colt A1's I also think it started with the white and then went to the reddish orange. I believe the blue inserts came along as an upgrade after the majority of M16A1 production ceased. The original production run of Colt M16A2's all had the blue inserts along with the first FN's. I've only witnessed the black inserts on late production FN and Most every Colt M4. There is now another "new" spring for the M4 which also uses the black insert, but the spring is plated to identify it from standard/rifle springs.
WpnsMan It is interesting that before H&R and GM production, Colt went to the trouble/was instructed by the Govt' to mark it's components in a way that could be easily determined they were produced by Colt. Again, common practice for all weapons/parts made for the Govt' once they are produced by more than one manf. Then, Colt ends up supplying most of the major components to these other manufacturers. Again, probably at the request of the Govt' to speed production of needed weapons during the time of conflict. Kind of ironic though, not to mention making it difficult for collectors and us historically accurate anal types Of the original Green Furniture I've encountered. Underneath the original green was the same reddish brown fiberglass as used on the earliest AR-15's. The handguards were the most frequently, relatively speaking, of these components encountered. Followed by the pistol grip and then the buttstocks. Interestingly, all had been painted black used on rifles during rebuild which had subsequently flaked off around the edges exposing the green underneath. Wpns Man |
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Here's mine...........
All Colt NIW early M-16 stuff on a Bushy lower http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/villafuego/retroAR.jpg 20" light profile 1/7" Colt barrel.........Placer CBS sold these many moons ago..... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/villafuego/bblmarks.jpg The next project is an XM-607 repro with some Colt and WA Tom parts on a Palmetto A1 lower http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/villafuego/proyecto.jpg |
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$189.50!!!! Sick, very sick. |
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Well, if there are any, not very many. The BLACK RIFLE states that the mag fence was one of the upgrades incorporated under contract 508, prior to the XM16E1 being standardized as the M16A1, so it is possible, in theory.
OK, can see that now, never noticed that these cuts where a result of a mill cut on the corner of the bolt lugs. Did notice that only Colt's bolts had the diagonal cuts, and did not know about the 45 degree bevel on the side of the lugs. Let me see if I got this right. So if you find a mid 60's bolt, that is a take off from a USGI M16A1, then odds are it is a Colt bolt regardless of wether or not it has the diagonal cuts in the bolt? Wether or not a particular mid 60's bolt has diagonal cuts in it, is chalked up to Colt's manufacturing variance, rather then origin of manufacture? Makes sense to me.
One thing first, I mentioned 20 years in my previous post, I meant 10 years. Took a quick look at a 2004 production bolt, and one from about 1966. Both have the 45 degree bevel on the left side of the locking lugs. The end mill starts (or ends) WAY past the lug on the early bolt, thus leaving the diagonal cut on the old bolt. New bolt lacks this long cut. Will have to go back and look for the semi-circular cut you mention on late bolts. Did notice a slight bevel on the right side of the lug on the new bolt, that is lacking on the old bolt. With your information in hand I need to break down some more rifles, and take a closer look. Even so, I am sure that Colt's or FN has not ran the end mill far enough down the bolt to leave those diagonal cut in the bolt heads, like Colt's use to, say some 10 years ago and earlier.
Don't forget proof testing too. And speaking of premature failure, not a good idea to use old Colt's chrome bolts in high stress situations. The Army got rid of those for good reason, a long time ago. Am sure you already knew that, but just passing that along for others.
Great, thanks for the tip.
Have not gotten a chance to compare these early M16A1 extractor buffer springs with newer ones, but I did immediately got the idea that the spring was considerably longer, and also weaker. Sounds like we are on the same page regarding the buffer spring insert, save the blue one. My earlier post on the blue one was a educated guess. I have a friend with a mid 80's SP-2, will ask what buffer he has in his. While he is at it, will have him check for the bolt cuts too.
And to round out the ironic thing, seems FNMI bolts have been turning up in Colt's products, here and there.
Handguards are more common? Great, am going to hold out for a set. |
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Can the furniture be Dyed Green instead of Painting?
Like the black dye job alot of guys did to the ugly HK Gray plastic rifles! |
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Aint inflation a bitch??? My parents paid $230 bucks for my first AR, A SP1.. |
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Based on my observations............ Yes.
I think the slightly rounded appearance of the remaining surfaces of the lugs on newer manufactured bolts is not the result of intentional beveling like on the leading edge, but is the result of the tumbling process used to deburr the components before they are finished. As I stated above, newer manufactured bolts will usually have more of an circular pattern than the diagonal cuts IF at all, aka. most will show no evidence of this.
Some commercial bolts are MP tested, I have an older production Smith Enterprise bolt that is unused and is marked MPSE in white paint, similar to the way National Areospace marked it's products with paint. Good until it wears off or is refinished, then you don't know who made it. By the way it's lugs are also properly beveled. As to the Army discontinueing the use of chrome bolts/carriers........ I wrote a dissertation on this a while back debunking some of these misconception. Which are usually the result of people "reading into" the vague statement in the TM. You may be able to find it through searching or archived. I think it was titled "Militarys use of chrome bolts". Long story short, they do not induce accelerated wear, or are more prone to failure than their phosphated counterparts. They were replaced for tactical(no shine) reasons and that was the carriers only. Chromed bolt assemblies are still acceptable even in Divisional units, even though now they are rarely encountered at all. In fact, I use them in all of my personnal builds and buy them whenever I can find them as they are pretty much indestructable.
While the spring is longer, it is NOT noticeably weaker. In fact the ones I have encountered were still in service, having missed mandatory replacement for some reason, and still continued to function reliably. Quite a testament for 30 plus year old springs and to the original design. One of those things that makes you go Hmmm... as to why they changed them to start with. Although, and this is pure speculation on my part, that the longer spring may have been prone to spring bind and was replaced with the shorter one to avoid said bind. But, being shorter the new springs required the insert to achieve the same tension and resulting life span. That's probably the reason it is mandatory to replace the newer springs when the insert is missing. I am quite sure on the time frame I first noticed the blue extractor inserts. I also wouldn't gage the use of the blue inserts or any other component for that matter, to what was being used on commercial Colt production for the same time period. Their history shows that they have used older generation parts on their commercial guns with some frequency. Trying not to commit blasphemy, but as for BR and BRII, while I will be the first to agree that they have some great historical and technical data, they are not without their omissions and faults. I think ColdBlue recently stated when the subject came up, that the author was unconcerned when offered advice on ensuring that some technical and historical facts were correct before publication of BRII. So, as with anything published SOME of the information contained therein should be taken with a grain of salt. Wpns Man |
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Found it here: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=207556 Good info.............. |
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Have not done my homework on this yet.
Sure, Smith Ent are MP tested, you may recall that you had brought up the subject of "lower end commercial bolts":
And Smith Ent bolts are not "low end".
Was not implying that chromed bolt = bad bolt. Was referencing the fact that the ArmaLite developed bolt, and the initial production Colt's bolt was designed with stick powder in mind. As such they are made of a lower grade steel, and are not even shot peened. So, best to avoid early Colt's bolts (ie, chromed) for practical use, unless you can tell what grade steel it is made of, and wether or not it has been shot peened. There are plenty of Model 01 parts that are best avoided.
Hmm, sure seemed weak to me. When I get a chance to look some bolts over, I will see if I can find a way to measure exactor spring strength while I am at it. Think I can do it with my trigger pull gauge.
I think you are correct about the blue buffers.
Noticed that myself, we had a little thread on the subject of accuracy of the new book a few months back. |
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I just heard back from my friend with a 1984 manufacture SP2, and he confirmed that it does have a blue buffer. |
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Hey, I only got red X's before, but now I see the pics. Is the Palmetto lower modified, or did it come without the mag fence? |
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Here are some extractor spring strength readings I got:
early long spring, no buffer: 4.0 lbs white buffer: 3.0 lbs red buffer 3.5 lbs blue buffer: 2.25 lbs 2.5 lbs black buffer, with gold spring: could not get a good reading, kinda stiff ya know, well over 5.0 lbs These are not real scientific, too many variables, and too small a sample. But, sure looks like you were right about the early long extractor spring. |
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OK, took a closer look at my bolts:
Mid to late 60's bolts, marked MP, left side locking lug bevel cut all the way into the bolt so as to leave a diagonal cut in the bolt head. 1975 SP1 bolt, and a M16A1 bolt, both marked MPC with the M and P ran together, left side locking lug bevel cut all the way into the bolt so as to leave a diagonal cut in the bolt head. 1994 6551 bolt, marked MPC with the M and P separate, small left side locking lug bevel that stops short of the bolt body, leaving a step right at the root of the lugs. 1995 6721 bolt marked MPC with the M and P separate, and C below the MP, small left and right side locking lug bevel that stops short of the bolt body, leaving steps right at the root of both sides of the lugs. 2003 6400 bolt, marked MPC with the M and P separate, small left and right side locking lug bevel that stops short of the bolt body, leaving steps right at the root of both sides of the lugs. |
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Got a new photo-hosting service finally....... Thats how the Palmetto lowers were........it's unmodified. I saw you won a waffle mag from the same guy I won one from.....get yours yet?????? |
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I was in no way implying that Smith Ent bolts are low end. In fact I was trying to state the opposite, that they are a quality bolt that should not be bunched with run of the mill commercial junk.
Where did you get the information on the grade of steel used on early bolts being inferior and relating to the use of a specific powder type? I'm sure that somewhere in it's 40 plus years of production history the use of alternate alloys may have been used. Just as the M1 Garand is a prime example of the practice during WWII production. But, any alloy used to manufacture a M16 bolt must, after being properly machined, deburred and heat treated be suitable of withstanding 52,000 CUP as it's normal diet after surviving a proof round that is considerably more. Then pass magnetic particle testing prior to being issued. Whether these earlier manufactured bolts were or were not shot peened is of little consequence as we know manufacturing processes change over the years and a properly deburred component achieves the same end result of stress relief. Now, I would absolutely apply your statement to commercial chromed or phosphated bolts for that matter of undetermined manufacture and agree wholeheartedly. But, we are talking about military MP tested chrome bolts, and I have never seen one break at the cam pin hole, have chrome flake off, accelerate wear or fail headspace. Those I have personally inspected or own are in some cases approaching 40 years old and still look and perform as new, though they were obviously well used. Statistically, it has been my experience that they have outlived many of their phosphated brethren as to percentages inspected/replaced. I would not be reluctant to use one of these bolts or otherwise be wary of them in anyway providing that they(as any bolt) are not obviously damaged and will headspace properly with the intented barrel.
By reading your other post, I'm glad you took time to do some testing on the extractor springs. It seems your findings confirm my theory, and I find it amusing that it's taken four generations of "new and improved" to get us back to where we started. Though there are a lot of variables which need to be taken into account such as firing cycles the individual springs have been subjected to that will affect their tension/lifespan prior to testing. I have also seen many new springs that were rendered useless by improper assembly into the extractor through the use of pliers to "squeeze it in there" rather than carefully pressing/rotating it until it seats with your fingers. So more testing should probably be done on known serviceable springs to draw the most accurate conclusions..... Good Job Wpns Man |
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