I won't sell ANYTHING except a chrome lined barrel.  
Couple tips....thing about a left handed shooter.  Stag has an amazing business with them and demand is high (not just from lefties, but righties like me that shoot left handed because of left dominent eye)
Also, consider what Daewoo has done in korea....lower of an ar with an ak gas system..best of both worlds.

Lots good replies on this thread.  After re-reading them I think I'll change a couple of my answers.


1. I agree with those that say to not sell the AR with BUIS.  Let the end user get the one they want.

2. Use the mil-spec diameter receiver extension but sell it with the standard M4 stock.  Again, let the user get the stock they want to get.

Doing this should allow you to include more of the critical quality items that higher end AR's should have.

Mr Kassnar,

    I will start this out with a comment on problems with some of Charles Daly's past products which will lead into my humble opinions for your projects future.  Charles Daly has a reputation of having spotty reliability on some of its past products.  I personally purchased a Charles Daly 1911 several years back that failures to feed and failures to fire about every four to five rounds.  I have tried all types of ball ammunition and have tried numerous quality after-market magazines with no luck.  Customer service was little help as well.  It now sits in my safe waiting me to have time to troubleshoot further.  

    That being said, get the basics rifle specs, fit and finish, and quality control down before you start adding on after-market parts.  Pay careful consideration the trigger as many people will buy or not buy a rifle just because of trigger pull alone.  As for the barrel, a chrome lined 1/7 twist is preferred for serious work and should be at least offered if not offered exclusively.  14.5 barrels are preferable for a carbine, and it must have M-4 feed ramps for obvious reasons.  As for the furniture, keep it simple and offer Mil spec M4 stocks of the highest quality.  A full floating rail would be a welcome addition.  Larue, Troy, and even Midwest Industries all make a great product .  As for your bolt assembly, stake the gas key, and include the extractor donut  The bayonet lug is not honestly that functional for most people, but it is proper on an AR-15 and many people, if not most, gravitate towards it.  

Thank you for your time, and good luck!
RoverG79

Quoted: bcw107 said,"Buy a CD AR15 and get a CD Hi-Power 1/2 off combo package". Nice idea...but I already have a CD Hi-Power...would that discount work on the US produced 1911? Ar Questions, 1, Troy for flip-up 2.  CL 1/7 twist 4150 steel.   CL or my wallet doesn't leave home. 3.  Yes to bay. lug 4.  Magpul over Ace any day.  However, why don't you do something uniqe.  Offer the better built A2 stock only 1 inch shorter  like Colt did in the 90s.  O'...I'd prefer a steel trapdoor to a plastic one too.  Little things like this will set you apart.

Eh.  I posted that before the US1911 news.  I agree (but only because I have a Belgium) but could always use another HP (especially a CD made in the USA, hint hint hint).

I first look to my weapons to be reliable, reliable and reliable... then accurate for up to 20 rounds...  I am not a warrior or sniper but within 20 rounds you should have hit what you wanted.  A beta dump weapon I would suggest takes a different construction approach, I would think.

If it is not reliable it is frustrating to shoot and if it is not accurate there is no use in having it.

Now a lot of people will argue as to what makes reliable, I wont join in that debate now but as a manufacturer you need to define it.  I think there are a lot of good suggestions here, and thank you for asking.

just a couple of other points in addition to all of the good advice,

make sure your black rifles are BLACK with no purple tint
and no animal logos on the lower receiver please, your logo should be small, simple and businesslike (think LMT )
bullet pictograms in place of the Safe/Fire selector markings seem popular as well.

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

I think you were already given good advise but different people made different suggestions and some I agree with yet others are limited IMHO.

Regarding #1:

Make a Basic rifle.  Don't wory about adding accessories such a back up iron sights.  There are HUNDREDS of good choices out there and depending on the purpose of the gun being built what may work for a particular gun may not work for another.  

If you add a $200+ back up irons to a base gun that I don't want, you added $200 to the price that I will not pay!  So, build an A1, A2, and A3 configuration but DO NOT wory about packaging an A3 with irons.

Regarding #2:

This depends on what the gun is being used for.  For combat type shooting I would not want anything but a chome linned barrel BUT for a bench rifle used to shoot tiny groups I like a stainless or non-chrome linned chome molley barrel!  You need to do some market research to decide which market you are after but a company making real accurate bench guns would be something relatively new as opposed to the hundred or so companies building M4 clones for those that want to pretend we are in .mil  (JMHO)

There is room in this market for both and while in a combat gun I want crome linned, my non-chrome linned guns will outshoot just about ANY crome linned gun out there and I would never NOT have my tack drivers too!

Regarding #3:

This depends on how you build but if you are getting into the game I would offer both the traditional carbine, midlength, and rifle configuration.  The carbine with the 11.5/5.5 flash hider, 14.5/long Phantom length flash hider, Mid-length 16-inch, or 20-inch rifle will all mount a bayonet just fine!  

The trick here is deciding what the rifle or carbine is for.  A rifle built for shooting off a bench that weights say 10-pounds or more sure does not need a bayonet!  A gun that is designet to be shot with a scope is likewise not really something that would be logical that a person would want a bayonet mounted to.  Still, I love the M9 Bayonet and I like my guns to be able to mount it...

Now, a nice addition would be a windage adjustable front sight gas block with flats milled under the front sight gas block.  Then attach the front sight with set screws as opposed to taper pins.  Such a setup is not as secure, so no need for a bayonet, but serious CMP guns all have this feature and sometimes you need it!

Regarding #4:

Read reply to #1...  Keep it simple and if people want something special they can get it...  There are too many options for you to guess what a person wants and regardess what you chose you will chose wrong for most people!

Additiona Suggestions:

Build a FACTORY NRA RACE gun!  I am not aware of anybody that is making a purpose build NRA HIGHPOWER MATCH gun and I think it is a niche that someone could make out well in.  Add a good front sight way out on the bloop tube and a good apature to the rear, give it a good barrel and trigger.  It may not sell in volumes like other guns, but it is a market that is open to be owned to get people talking about the new offerings.  Just remember to give it a real twist (1:8) so we can actually use it after it is made!

Good Luck, you are jumping into a saturated market but if you offer something new we are sure to check it out!

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? 1. ARMS  2. LaRue 3. YHM

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? I won't even consider non-chrome lined. Asides from reliability, it just cleans up easier.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?  It doesn't matter to me, but I doubt others here feel the same way.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?  The skeleton stock would be ok for a varmint model. I would rather have a standard collapsible stock or even a Magpul CTR on a modular.  A 18" or 16" MIDLENGTH would probably be an ideal modular set up.

Just my 2 cents.

GOOD LUCK!

Oh yeah, props for coming to the "Home of the Black Rifle" to introduce yourself and tell us about your companies new line.

I'm hoping you can offer the "no bayonet lug" as an option to us guys behind the lines.

If the parts are made in USA, then good to you

I want chrome lined

YHM is a pretty well known brand on the lower end of the price range, I believe Buhsmaster uses them

I like my ACE Socom, but I think Magpul would be a better selling point.

Quoted:
At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here...

My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense".

This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs.

Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.)

It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!)

The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built!

So my questions here:

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show.

Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product.

Thanks for your input.

Michael Kassnar
President

KBI, Inc.
1. YHM
2.Won't by an AR without chrome lined barrel, but that's just me
3.bayonet lug not really important to me personally but helps "re-sale ability"
4.Stocks; I don't really perfer one over the other, but a standard collapsible is usually a crowd pleaser IMO.

1.Offer a couple different brands
2.Chrome lined barrel
3.Bayonet lug
4.Magpul Stocks

Since this will be your first attempt at doing the AR thing please concentrate on quality issues before cosmetic or tacticool stuff.  Make sure that your bolt is shot-peened and MPI'd and make sure the bolt carrier is properly staked.  Use chrome lined 1/7 twist barrels and MPI and pressure test those as well (for carbine/fighting rifles).  Use Mil spec stock extension and standard M4 stock.  Make sure the rifles are reliable and well built first, get your customers then worry about add ons and your loyal customers will follow.

do you like the smith ar15? im looking at that, RRA, POF or the sig, but know little about them. your opinion?  thanks

Good luck with your new rifles.

I admire starting with "What would you like to see in a new AR15 line of rifles......"
(edit to add- Bigstick......S&W makes a fine rifle.)  

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

1. Troy or Midwest Industries.

2. Very. If it's not chrome or stainless, I pass. Also, please offer a 1/8 or 1/7 twist for a defensive rifle.

3. Not really a concern, but people will complain for no reason if the bayonet lug isn't present.

4. ACE is okay, but I think you'd be better off with Magpul or Vltor.


Also, will your 1911's have an accessory rail?

Quoted: At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here... My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense". This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs. Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.) It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!) The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built! So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?  For an all purpose carbine, chrome is (IMO) important 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? Use a midlength gas system and then the bayo lug is more functional 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?  Don't like 'em Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show. Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product. Thanks for your input. Michael Kassnar President KBI, Inc.

Welcome

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

Personally, I like Troy the best.

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

Very, not chrome lined, no sale here

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

Kinda, its just principle.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

Personally I don't care for the ACE.  Vltor Stocks do it for me,  and Magpul, the PRS is perfect for such a rifle.  Id rather run a standard A2 than the Ace though, I dont see the benefit of the Ace over the A2.

Go as close to Colt spec as possible.

Everyone hates Colt, but they do have the best product. Take a good look at the chart posted earlier in the thead, I hate to say it, but very few do it as good as Colt, and that is what makes thier product successfull. It certainly isnt thier customer service or gun owner support.

Make a Colt quality(and spec) product, that is more affordible, and from a company with better customer service and more supportive of civilian gun ownership, and you will have a very successfull business division within your company.

If I had the money to start my own gun company, that is exactly what I would do, as that is what the market is asking for.

You have to make your product stand out above everyone else who is in the AR game right now, and you do that through the quality of your product.

YHM....best bang for you buck (good quality/affordable) but I have to agree with those that say "keep the BUIS off to keep the price down"

No bayonet lug is necessary.....even if they do make bayonets for a 16" barrel who cares?.....Does anyone really plan on leading a "bayonet charge"?  It will also help those out in the "ban states".  There are plenty of makers out there that offer the lug so it's in no danger of going away unless there is a massive push to ban guns by Hillary (and the looming SCOTUS case may put this issue to bed)

Ditch the ACE stocks and go with the Magpul CTR for the "fighting guns" and the PRS or the ever elusive UBR for the precision rig.


Chrome lined is ok....but if it bumps the price too high then reconsider.  Stainless Steel is definately a good choice for the precision rigs



BIGGEST point of advice.......keep the rifles as cheap as possible and you'll corner the market.....if you only make them marginally lower you'll just be another name in the sea of black rifles.

Quoted: Go as close to Colt spec as possible. Everyone hates Colt, but they do have the best product. Take a good look at the chart posted earlier in the thead, I hate to say it, but very few do it as good as Colt, and that is what makes thier product successfull. It certainly isnt thier customer service or gun owner support. Make a Colt quality(and spec) product, that is more affordible, and from a company with better customer service and more supportive of civilian gun ownership, and you will have a very successfull business division within your company. If I had the money to start my own gun company, that is exactly what I would do, as that is what the market is asking for. You have to make your product stand out above everyone else who is in the AR game right now, and you do that through the quality of your product.

Funny someone is promoting Colt as being the keeper of Specs after years of creating screwed up guns with funky pins, pivots, missing parts, and strange pinned in or unmilled components...  Colt is only still around because of .gov and some people want the Colt name.

There are much better role models the Colt if a company wants to stay true to spec (Bushmaster, Armalite, LMT are all good).  

Colt != Standard ....  Colt = Screwed up specs

Quoted: At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here... My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense". This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs. Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.) It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!) The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built! So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? Troy... larue if it was a flip up/down model (they don't make this yet) 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? Chrome is a big deal... I will not buy a non chrome lined brl anymore 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? They do make after market bayos that work... but really it just so we have all the evil toys 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think? if your rifle is going to come with an ace anything then please make it cheap so I can put an LMT SOPMOD on it Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show. Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product. Maybe a high line and a lower (not cheap) line is in order?  Some people here like less expense stuff they usually fall into the "it's just a range toy" or " I wouldn't ever have to use it to defend myself" group... the rest of us (including me) think more on the lines of " I don't want any part on my rifle to ever fail, I may need this rifle to save my life on day and I need it to work no matter what" PLS contact the site staff and become a corporate sponsor... we are glad to talk to you but I think you need to be a sponsor to show your legit Thanks for your input. Michael Kassnar President KBI, Inc.

Just my .02

Mike

Gentlemen, our goal in entering the AR market is to sell a large quantity of a few models to the masses. We posted here piror to refining our final build specifications, in order that we might get a more complete understanding of what the AR15.com segment of the market would prefer from a new entry in the market.

A little soliloquy...For these many years we have been selling shotguns of all types and varying quality/price levels; over & unders, side by sides, semi-auto, pumps, etc. We have sold bolt action centerfire and rimfire rifles. We are now active in the Western replica firearms, including lever actions (think 1873, 1866, 1876 replicas), rabbit-eared coach guns, single shot Sharps rifles and 1873 Single Action revolvers. At the same time we have been quite active in the 1911 pistol market and the Hi-Power pistol market. Our intention when selling all of these firearms was to offer an acceptably reliable product with good quality at a reasonable price. We have never had a custom shop. We have always had to be very carful not to get bogged down in niche segments of those markets we elect to compet in.

For many years, in the shotgun segment, we would attend many industry shows, distributor shows, national shoots and regional competitions. Invariably at these events, our fellow shooters (and potential customers) would often opine to us that a particular shotgun shouhd have the new improved widget of the day. The skeet shooter would admonish us that we could not sell skeet guns if we didn't add this particular widget to our skeet guns. The sporting clay shooters would tell us that we could never hope to sell the first sporting clay gun until we added another particular "must have" widget.

When my staff and I would retrun from these events we would have a headful of some quite wonderful ideas, some quite impossible ideas, and some downright quacky ideas. However, most of them were quite good and we would have loved to incoporate the majority of them into our products, except for one major issue. They would increase the cost of our prodcuts at least 50% but they would appeal to a huge portion of the "sporting" shotgun market, perhps reaching 50% + of that market. Sounds good, right? Well, yes and no. The "Sporting" shotgun market represents less than 5% of the total shotgun market in the US. It seems most shotguns are uesd in North America for the more mundane use of hunting,

I feel the analogy here may apply. 1/7 twist, 4150 steel, M4 feedramps, middy length carbines/rifles, individual pressure testing of all parts instead of batch compliance inspections...These are all great ideas for a particular niche in the market. But is it the the mass market? If we do these things will we be chasing the best bulid for the smaller market segment?

Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster.

Do we want to sell 2,000 guns at the top of the scale to the niche, or do we want to sell 30,000 guns a year to the masees?

As the Predient of KBI, I know what I would prefer, I like volume. When you have the voulume, then you can look at doing more configurations that will begin to satisfy the niche. I don't think you build the niche first, then build to sell the masses. Especially in this poilitical climate. In the next 18 months we want guns for the masses. If we're still in business after 18 months, then we can begin building the latest greatest tacticool military standard rifles.

Four of the five models we will be taking to the show will have 4140 CrMoly steel with chrome lined chambers and bores, 1X9 twists. One model will have a bull stainless barrel with 1/8 twist. All are chambered 5.56; one may be wyldie, All will have properly staked bolt keys, black extractor spring insert, and M4 feedramps will be made a standard featue. Double shield handguards are standard. Lifetime Warranty.

There are still several issues yet to be decided, bit it would appear to me as if we will fall right smack dab in the middle of your chart, probably between CMMG and Armalite.

We will then have two months to fine tune these builds even further. If i can be convinced that we will sell more guns to the masses by doing 1/7 in 4150, then I will not hesitate any further to build our guns with these features.

Please don't take any of this too personal. You have told me what you want now I need to be convinced if I do things that will put us on the left side of that chart, then I will sell a lot more guns then if I end up in the middle oif the chart. Bushmaster is to the right of where we'll be and in my mind, from a commercial point of view, they seem to be doing it right.

Well, I posed the questions, you gave some great feedback, then I clarified our goals. Now we have a real dialig going for which I thank you very much and feel that both of us can only benefit from this exchange of ideas.

I look forward to receiving more of your comments.

Sincerely,
Michael

I think someone needs to come up with a decent working and decent priced HK94 variant.  Tell Daly Defense to do that along with the ARs.

Quoted: 1. Troy, handsdown 2. Chrome-lined, better to have and not need then need and not have. 3. Bayo lug, non issue, what is cheaper, go that route 4. Magpul CTR w/ milspec tube

Ditto

 I myself love the ACE ARFX stock, I have long arms and it feels right at home to me. I also think a retro styled rifle with a 20" barrel, triangle handguards and a fixed stock would sell like hot cakes....... I think anyone who likes a simple ar would agree that the old rifles were sweet! Many of us grew up looking at them and they caused alot of us to catch the BRD!!!

Quoted: Rour of the five models we will be taking to the xhow will have 4140 CrMoly steel with chrome lined chambers and bores., 1X9 twists. One model will have a bull stainless barrel with 1/8 twis. All are chambered 5.56 one may be wyldie, All will have properly staked bolt keys, black extractor spring insert, and M4 feedrams will be made a standard featue. Double shield handguards are standard. Lifetime Warranty. I look forward to receiving more of your comments. Sincerely, Michael

Sounds pretty good.  

Is 1/7 twist really more expensive than 1/9?  I had no idea.  Thought it was just "different."

1 - I use ARMS #40

2 - chrome lined for everyday work

3 - does not matter to me

4 - I have not used one but it will make your rifles available to "ban states" where adjustable stocks are not allowed

Quoted: Rour of the five models we will be taking to the xhow will have 4140 CrMoly steel with chrome lined chambers and bores., 1X9 twists. One model will have a bull stainless barrel with 1/8 twis. All are chambered 5.56 one may be wyldie, All will have properly staked bolt keys, black extractor spring insert, and M4 feedrams will be made a standard featue. Double shield handguards are standard. Lifetime Warranty. I look forward to receiving more of your comments. Sincerely, Michael

Micheal, obviously it's a business decision, but using 4140 instead or 4150 ordnance grade steel in your barrels will put you in the same realm as Olympic arms and Model1Sales.

It doesn't mean you won't be making a quality weapon that serves well, but it means you will not be making  a professional grade weapon such as Colt, LMT or even Bushmaster, who all use 4150 ordnance grade steel. The little things such as superior metallurgy and proof testing do matter when the weapons are to used in law enforcement and security applications, or to the discriminating client.

If your rifles are to be targeted to the market as a whole, to include the general public and the sporting market, or to the economy market, then 4140 may serve your purpose. But be aware there is a difference. It's why I am willing to pay twice the price for an LE series Colt rifle than for a comparable Olympic with the same configuration.


Oh also, not to nit-pick, but you said:

Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster.

If you check Bushmaster's specs on their website, they do use 4150 steel. They also make a 1/7 gov't profile 20"barrel.  I don't think they are the best, because they only randomly proof and magnetic particle test their barrels and bolts, despite putting the MP roll mark on every barrel. Their new online product catalog is lacking in this information, but if you call them you can confirm these facts conerning these two features.

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

1. LaRue
2. For a "Duty Rifle" it's VERY important (as well as 5.56NATO Chamber)
3. I don't even own a bayonet, but some find it a "must have" so they can mount an extended bayonet.
4. Instead of the ACE SOCOM I would suggest a Mil-Spec diameter Receiver Extension and a M4 stock, MagPul CTR, or VLTOR.

Remember in this industry you have ONE CHANCE at making a good impression. If your QC slips and you turn out a batch of lemons you will be wearing a scarlet letter for a LONG time. Decide if you are targeting "Professionals" or "Hobbyists". Differnt things are more or less important depending on if you are going 3-gunning or raiding a crackhouse.

height=8

Quoted:...If you check Bushmaster's specs on their website, they do use 4150 steel. They also make a 1/7 gov't profile 20"barrel.  I don't think they are the best, because they only randomly proof and magnetic particle test their barrels and bolts, despite putting the MP roll mark on every barrel. Their new online product catalog is lacking in this information, but if you call them you can confirm these facts conerning these two features.

Can you please give me the link to Bushmaster's website where it says they use 4150 and 1/7 for commercial markets. From what I can tell they only use these features on their LE Only models.

Also, as I mentioned, I have not finalized our specifications yet and will only do so after the show next week. However, the 5 models that I am taking to the show have 4140 and 1/9 and one 1/8.

Quoted: Quoted:...If you check Bushmaster's specs on their website, they do use 4150 steel. They also make a 1/7 gov't profile 20"barrel.  I don't think they are the best, because they only randomly proof and magnetic particle test their barrels and bolts, despite putting the MP roll mark on every barrel. Their new online product catalog is lacking in this information, but if you call them you can confirm these facts conerning these two features. Can you please give me the link to Bushmaster's website where it says they use 4150 and 1/7 for commercial markets. From what I can tell they only use these features on their LE Only models. Also, as I mentioned, I have not finalized our specifications yet and will only do so after the show next week. However, the 5 models that I am taking to the show have 4140 and 1/9 and one 1/8.

Micheal,
they have always been 4150 since I can remember.
Here is a link to one of their varmint rigs where it's describes the barrel as being 4150:

Bushmaster Varminter description

Product Description: Designed around our DCM Competition Barrel, in a 24" Fluted, Extra Heavy Profile – machined to SAAMI specification tolerances of 4150 ChromeMoly Vanadium steel. Full length fluting reduces weight and increases barrel cooling. Barrel Is a full 1" diameter under the Forend, and has an 11° Competition Crowned Muzzle.

Unfortunately since Cerberus bought them and they revamped the website the product descriptions are a bit spotty and inconsistent, but that shows that they use the 4150 grade steel in their commercial products. Their printed catalog clearly decribes it as well.
I'm sure Bushmaster Technical support could confirm this for you by phone also.


Hope that helps.

Keep in mind the 19,306,183 Peoples Republik of New York residents, require safe, organic weapons that do not have bayonet lugs. flash suppressors, or > 10 round mags.

(I had to wait months to acquire a particular Bushmaster NY legal Barrel)

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

My personal preference is the Troy. A folding BUIS is also more versatile for most users since it gives them a wider range of choices for optics.

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

Not all the important. I am more concerned about the chamber (Wylde) and twist rate (1:8 or 1:7) than I am about chrome-lining. I like to have it if I can get it; but I'd rather have a stainless Wylde 1:8 than a chrome-lined 1:9.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

I don't use it.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

One of my least favorite stocks - ranks only above the original carbine telestock in my book.

Quoted: We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

Probably just a way of keeping inventory costs down by only having one type of front sight base.  This is the reason for the mid-length, which moves the fsb far enough forward so that the bayonet mount becomes functional again.  I just think they look better.

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?
All the ones you mentioned would be fine with me, but I'd prefer a Troy.  Folder is preferred.

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?
For a defensive type rifle, it's gotta be chrome lined, or I won't buy it.  Seriously!  For a precision rifle, stainless without chrome gets the nod.  
If you really want to impress me, offer a chrome lined, 16" featherweight barrel with M4 feed ramps rather than an M4 contour or heavyweight barrel that everyone and their brother offers.  I'm in the market for a 14.5" featherweight with M4 Ramps, but it looks like I'm going to need to get an M4 cut down on a lathe and refinished.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?
Not to me, except that it's like an FU to the gun banners, which is good.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?
I have no use for either.  If I can't get a Magpul stock from the factory, I'd want an "M4 waffle-type collapsable stock."

No sear block in the lowers, please.  Those of us lucky enough to have DIAS or lightning links are tired of lowers that aren't compatible.  I might actually help sales if you make the least politically correct rifle on the market.

1)  Just put an A1 or A2 handle on it, with an option for nothing.  Or pick whatever, with an option for nothing.  There's no way one BUIS will satify everyone.

2)  No chrome isnt a dealbreaker, however I am more likely to buy a CLed bbl.

3)  I want a baynet lug for the simple fact that I wasn't allowed one for ten years.

4)  I have no experaince with either.  IMO an M4 stock with a mil-spec buffertube would be ideal for the modular carbine (this way one could upgrade to the LMT SOPMOD, the magpul CTR, etc), and an A2 for the Varmint.  Using these will keep the cost down for building the rifles, and if theyre cheaper for you to build, they're cheaper for us to buy.

I guess it just depends on whether you want to offer a quality midrange product or a low quality midrange product.  I think that you will find that your ar-15 buyers are a bit more discriminating than the average shotgun buyer.  This website alone educates hundreds of thousands of people regarding ar-15's.  Alot of consumers come here either before they buy a rifle or afterwords so that they can customize that rife.  The average shotgun buyer does not do that because a hunting shotgun is not a modular platform that begs for upgrades.

Trust me...offering a 1/7 twist chrome barrel with real M4 ramps key.  If you dont offer that standard, you are lumping yourself in with ALOT of competition that will be in the same price bracket.  

You can probably get away with not offering individually MP tested parts if you are designing a gun for the masses, but the logic of offering the exact same thing that RRA, Bushy, Model 1, Olympic, etc escapes me.   Wouldn't you want to offer something that sets you apart from the competition?

Quoted: I guess it just depends on whether you want to offer a quality midrange product or a low quality midrange product.  I think that you will find that your ar-15 buyers are a bit more discriminating than the average shotgun buyer.  This website alone educates hundreds of thousands of people regarding ar-15's.  Alot of consumers come here either before they buy a rifle or afterwords so that they can customize that rife.  The average shotgun buyer does not do that because a hunting shotgun is not a modular platform that begs for upgrades. Trust me...offering a 1/7 twist chrome barrel with real M4 ramps key.  If you dont offer that standard, you are lumping yourself in with ALOT of competition that will be in the same price bracket.   You can probably get away with not offering individually MP tested parts if you are designing a gun for the masses, but the logic of offering the exact same thing that RRA, Bushy, Model 1, Olympic, etc escapes me.   Wouldn't you want to offer something that sets you apart from the competition?

I agree. There are a lot of manufactures out there selling what you are quoting. Not so many doing what we spec'ed

Here are the different setups I would say you should offer but I might be repeating what someone else has already said most likely:

1) 20" rifle government contour 1/7
2) 16" mid-length with medium contour or govt contour 1/7
3) 14.5" carbine with selection of permanently installed flash hiders/brakes 1/7
4) 11.5" carbine (SBR) 1/7
5) 18" SPR mid length stainless medium contour barrel 1/8
6) 18" SPR rifle length stainless medium contour barrel 1/8
7) 20" varmint rifle stainless heavy barrel 1/9
8) 16" varmint rifle, mid length gas heavy barrel 1/9

That is all.

Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster. Do we want to sell 2,000 guns at the top of the scale to the niche, or do we want to sell 30,000 guns a year to the masees?

I guess I would question how optimistic is your projection of market share in a market where you are offering the same product available from RRA, S&W, Olympic, Stag, Model 1, M&A, J&T Distributing, Remington, etc. etc?

Selling to the masses is great; but the mass generic market for AR15s gets tighter every year. As I see it, you've got two areas to distinguish yourself - price or quality/features of product. Unless you can get a new AR out the door around $550 MSRP or less, I don't see how you are going to break into the market with the same product everyone else is bringing to the game.

Quoted: Is 1/7 twist really more expensive than 1/9?  I had no idea.  Thought it was just "different."

What he said?

Mike

1. Get the Troy BUIS

2. Offer chrome
 
3. The lug? Well . . . never used one, all my rails go past the gas block

4. The stock? No frills A2 on my mid-to-rifle length and SOPMOD on my carbines. Styrofoam padding is for bicycle pads.

 

The 5.56 market is sautrated.  Offer something different in the way of calibers.

6.5s, 7.62s, 9mm, 10mm, 45 etc etc.

Do something creative to get started.  if you don't you will just be another ar assembler in a world of AR assemblers.  

Here's an idea:

6.5 Grendel HBar chrome lined carbine, ff rail with panels included, MagPul grip and matching Magpul CTR or VLTOR E Mod stock. Include a BUIS from the factory with windage and elevation. Now a guy has a beautiful rifle he can take home from the gun store, sight it in and go pop a white tail before the sun goes down. In the box you include a coupon that allows him 6.5 ammo and accessories at greatly reduced prices over retail, include a target and a couple spent cartridges. Now that's a package to show off at the SHOT show, think about it.

You should hire me.

SamColt

Quoted: Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster. Do we want to sell 2,000 guns at the top of the scale to the niche, or do we want to sell 30,000 guns a year to the masees? I guess I would question how optimistic is your projection of market share in a market where you are offering the same product available from RRA, S&W, Olympic, Stag, Model 1, M&A, J&T Distributing, Remington, etc. etc? Selling to the masses is great; but the mass generic market for AR15s gets tighter every year. As I see it, you've got two areas to distinguish yourself - price or quality/features of product. Unless you can get a new AR out the door around $550 MSRP or less, I don't see how you are going to break into the market with the same product everyone else is bringing to the game.

Well stated. Might have to ask- Who strives to start a new product line with the goal of it being mediocre? Why would you bother?

tag

Quoted: Quoted: Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster. Do we want to sell 2,000 guns at the top of the scale to the niche, or do we want to sell 30,000 guns a year to the masees? I guess I would question how optimistic is your projection of market share in a market where you are offering the same product available from RRA, S&W, Olympic, Stag, Model 1, M&A, J&T Distributing, Remington, etc. etc? Selling to the masses is great; but the mass generic market for AR15s gets tighter every year. As I see it, you've got two areas to distinguish yourself - price or quality/features of product. Unless you can get a new AR out the door around $550 MSRP or less, I don't see how you are going to break into the market with the same product everyone else is bringing to the game. Well stated. Might have to ask- Who strives to start a new product line with the goal of it being mediocre? Why would you bother?

Every product has it's market, and it's margins of profit. I mean if the gun owning public will buy garbage like Vulcan Arms, then the midlevel product starts to look better.

Few words of wisdom my father told me a while ago,

"It's about quality, not quantity."

"Spend a little more now, pay a lot less later."

There's a reason why I and many people spend more of their change on LMT and Colt products.  Just my useless .02 cents.

I'll make one last suggestion and then shut up.  Since you formed a new company (Charles Daly Defense), I would amend your corporate filing and ATF filing to allow you to put CDD on your weapons instead of the full name.  Either that or just put CDD on the magwell and save the full name for the ATF required address line.