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Posted: 2/12/2008 6:43:25 PM EDT
[#1]
clean? i dont plan on cleaning when i get mine! |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:10:53 PM EDT
[#2]
The "current production" of Troy rails is what I am referring to as "old". They had a "new" one at SHOT show that has more room in the rail. I've actually had three people tell me they were going to send the rails in - none of them have shown up yet. (check your email) Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:13:20 PM EDT
[#3]
That is actually a good question - but I honestly don't have an answer. I clean them every couple months before a show (SAR Show, Vegas, SAR Show, Phoenix, SHOT Show) so I haven't actually had to clean it due to function issues - just didn't want it THAT dirty for a show. I know we had one that had about 3000 rounds through it without issue before I had to clean it for a show. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:22:33 PM EDT
[#4]
that helps, thanks
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Posted: 2/12/2008 7:25:49 PM EDT
[#5]
As far as cleaning goes I clean mine everytime after I shoot them can't stand to put a dirty gun in the safe. But the real issue for me is it cut's cleaning time down from 45 minutes to 1 hour to a 5 to 10 minute job and im done. I love the piston set up.
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:24:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Hi, Todd
I am sorry to ask you a newbie question here. As a big H&K fan, I would like to ask if there are any different between your pistion system and what are used on HK416/417? Tks |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:43:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Check out this link of the HK 416 gas piston system.
http://www.armytimes.com/projects/flash/2007_02_20_carbine/ Sorry the links not hot , but you can see the difference. |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 8:59:17 PM EDT
[#8]
You can get mine?  The biggest difference between ours and the 416 style systems is that our operating rod is connected to the carrier - more like the Aug or the AK. We feel that this gives a smoother, more familiar recoil impulse than that of the other systems available. PAKATO3 - you had a couple rifles done - how would you say the recoil feels in comparison to when they were direct impingement? (before and after?) Todd |
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Posted: 2/12/2008 9:09:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks for reply, it sounds good to me. I will send my upper in soon.
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Posted: 2/12/2008 10:03:39 PM EDT
[#10]
So where exactly does the gas vent from? Does it vent under the hand guards/rail or out the front?
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Posted: 2/13/2008 5:57:08 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Hi, Todd I am sorry to ask you a newbie question here. As a big H&K fan, I would like to ask if there are any different between your piston system and what are used on HK416/417? Tks You can get mine? The biggest difference between ours and the 416 style systems is that our operating rod is connected to the carrier - more like the Aug or the AK. We feel that this gives a smoother, more familiar recoil impulse than that of the other systems available. PAKATO3 - you had a couple rifles done - how would you say the recoil feels in comparison to when they were direct impingement? (before and after?) Todd The felt recoil of the Gas Piston system to me is alot smoother that the DI system, you do not feel any real thump from the piston system that you would think and I dont get the spring BONG sound in the buffer tube. As I stated earlier I think the piston system is well worth the money and would not go back to the DI AR again. |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 7:23:32 AM EDT
[#12]
On our system the gas vents down into a chamber in the back of the gas block then rolls out underneath the handguard. Regarding venting - I read one post on another thread that someone felt you HAD to adjust the gas prior to using a suppressor. This is not true at all. Using a suppressor ups your pressure and cyclic rate, so we have a "suppressed" mode that restricts that amount of gas coming into the chamber to compensate for the extra pressure. You do not HAVE to use it - it is simply an option. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 8:12:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Is there enough venting to necessitate cleaning under the rail? If so how do you go about it - especially under a free float like a DD 9.5 fsp? |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 12:40:51 PM EDT
[#14]
As you are blowing some gas under the rail, if you are using dirty/cheap ammo (like we use) it is possible that you will see some "exhaust" on the barrel. However, this will not be enough to deposit actual debris, but rather a fog of sorts. It would certainly not be any more than any other piston system.
I guess in short, if you have a safe queen, then you may have to remove the handguards to q-tip and repolish your SS barrel. Other than that, it will be fine. Todd |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 1:26:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Could you (or someone else with experience using your system) give an idea of the level of reduction, if any, in suppressed "blowback" using your system? I'm not worried about reliability with the DI system as I've never had a problem with them, but being left-handed, a suppressed DI M4gery gets very uncomfortable after only a few rounds. Thanks |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 3:24:24 PM EDT
[#16]
The blowback as far as actual air? or noise?
I'm not sure how to measure the amount of "air" but I can tell you it is reduced to nearly nothing. We actually just came back from shooting suppressed and it was very comfortable both blowback and noise wise. As far as noise, we are going to meter them tomorrow, so I should have some info on that tomorrow evening. Todd |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 4:14:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Here are the pictures of the cutaway showing the basic function of the system.
   You might be thinking, "Wow... that is so simple"... which... ummm... yes. That is the idea. Todd |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 5:14:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Todd,
As soon as your hardware hits my shop, I will be checking it against the Troy to provide a definitive answer for the Troy MRF, current production Troy told me that their top rail is 0.275" thick. You told me that the distance from the top of your gas block to the top of the piston tube is 0.290." Therefore I am reasonably optimistic that it will work without milling it out or such. And I need to call you tomorrow about cans. I have a question about "over-the-barrel" cans and how much space your piston cap requires in front of the gas block. I think you'll find the discussion very interesting... 
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Posted: 2/13/2008 6:19:38 PM EDT
[#19]
As far as the cloud of ammonia that blows back into the shooter's face when using a suppressor. I don't expect that you could actually "measure" the air, but "fired 30 rounds before any scent of ammonia" etc. when using the suppressed vs. unsuppressed settings and a can would be very good to know. In this case, "reduced to nearly nothing" is at least a start. But while you're metering the noise, could you possibly shoot some left-handed on both settings to see if you notice the blinding fog I, as a lefty, suffer when shooting suppressed. Thanks for the input. |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 8:01:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Todd,
What is the distance between the top of the barrel channel and the bottom of the piston cap at the muzzle-end face of the gas block? |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 8:09:13 PM EDT
[#21]
I'll have to measure it to get an exact measurement - but it clears a 22mm muzzle device on a 10.5" barrel. If you have something with the large Acme thread - you will need a longer barrel - 11.5 is close and a 14.5" is fine. (assuming that is what you were asking?)
Todd |
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Posted: 2/13/2008 8:38:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Well, looks like the piston cap will not clear a Surefire MB68AR suppressor adapter on a 12.5"-13" barrel... Damn. is there more clearance with the Gen 1 - style piston cap? |
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Posted: 2/14/2008 7:02:54 AM EDT
[#23]
Thanks for the pics, it took me a few minutes to figure out the gas venting system due to the size of the pics but i think i got it, small hole in front of gas tube allows gas to entry chamber and pushes piston, excess gas is vented out large hole in rear of gas tube into a port in the gas block rear leg and out under handguards. Very nice .
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Posted: 2/14/2008 9:56:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Do you find that your "mothered system " causes less gouging of the receiver by the carrier travel than other systems have reported doing ??
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Posted: 2/14/2008 6:25:43 PM EDT
[#25]
We shot today using a suppressor on a 14.5" gun doing a direct comparison with a DI system and our left handed shooter noted there was a remarkable difference with our system and the gas was almost non existent. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/14/2008 6:28:13 PM EDT
[#26]
We have looked at this issue and are going to trim off some of the "back" of the cap, still giving you enough meat to grab, but also giving additional clearance for larger suppressor mounts. We will make those changes and measure the new clearance amount. I'm certain we can accommodate surefire type adapters, but I won't know for certain about the larger Acme threads until we have finished the modifications. Someone had expressed some concern about the set screws vs. taper pins and once we have established the dealer network, there will be dealers/installers that are offering the taper pin version and others will offer the set screw version. (we have had interest from both sides). As long as we are installing them in our shop, we will be using the set screws that will be secured and then staked. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/14/2008 6:35:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Absolutely. That is one of the biggest reasons we have the op rod attached the carrier and the rod mothered. This allows the "force" to be exerted up front by the piston instead of over the top of the carrier. Todd |
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Posted: 2/17/2008 9:11:17 AM EDT
[#28]
How about buffers ? Did changing to a different weight affect recoil or reliability ?
Could you also post some pics of the inside of a well used reciever , id like to see just how much wear to expect from the carrier and rod movement . Thanks |
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Posted: 2/17/2008 7:05:41 PM EDT
[#29]
We test fire the systems we put together using a heavy spring and a regular buffer. This is our attempt to compensate for some people using a either a heavy spring, or a heavy buffer. Of course, if you use a heavy spring and a heavy or hydraulic buffer, you should let us know so we can make sure that your system is test fired with a similar combination.
As far as the pictures go - I'll see what I can find at the shop tomorrow, but isn't that kind of like asking for a list of references for a job? If I had bad ones would I show them to you?  Regarding recoil and the felt impulse, we had a local LE in the shop the other day and he shot his duty M4 against one of the rifles in the shop to compare the recoil. To both his amazement and our delight, he felt that the recoil from our system was softer than the recoil from his DI system. This was also using a regular spring and a regular H2 buffer in both rifles. Todd |
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Posted: 2/17/2008 7:27:55 PM EDT
[#30]
So these are shipping?
What parts would I need to send in for the conversion? I have an 11.5 CMMG barrel and a flat top upper and just wondered what else would need to be sent. |
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Posted: 2/17/2008 8:37:08 PM EDT
[#31]
We would like a complete upper - a functional upper. If you are buying new parts - that is fine, but if you have an existing rifle, we would like to test fire it before performing any work to ensure there aren't any issues that the piston system would not help. (bolt/carrier lock up issues, etc.)
Any parts that are removed during installation and not used will be returned with the finished conversion. Again - if you have new parts - we need the all the parts to build a complete upper less the gas tube and gas block. (barrel, upper receiver, complete bolt carrier group, charging handle, etc). Finally - yes - these conversions are shipping approximately 3 weeks after we receive the customer's upper. Todd |
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Posted: 2/18/2008 10:24:01 AM EDT
[#32]
[Wquote]Quoted:
As far as the pictures go - I'll see what I can find at the shop tomorrow, but isn't that kind of like asking for a list of references for a job? If I had bad ones would I show them to you? Todd You better ! If im gonna hire you to convert my brand new LMT upper i expect complete disclosure Besides honesty is the best policy. Its better to get everything out front now than to try to expalin it to hundreds of customers later. Looking at your system i believe there will be less receiver problems .Ive heard some other piston systems leave gouges and if yours is less or none at all it would be a big selling point. Anyway i was running out of questions to ask and figured i would give it a shot , so far you've be honest and helpful and that goes along way. Thanks
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Posted: 2/18/2008 2:09:31 PM EDT
[#33]
I guess the biggest issue is that we have heard of many "issues" that piston systems have that are already present in the DI system. For example - the supposed stringing issue was already present in a DI gun. If you get a system 300 or 400 rounds hot (rapid semi or full auto fire) and then try and shoot it for a group, it will string - even in the DI system. You have a HOT steel barrel going into a HOT aluminum upper receiver - there will be flexing. With our system we have not found the piston to be any worse at this than a DI gun. I haven't tested other systems out there, so I cannot comment on those. However, my point is that the issue already exists. The same goes with carrier wear. We have a demo/beater DI gun that shows the same marks that people say are showing up on the piston guns.
Anyway - I'm not really here to argue these facts - but rather mention that many of these issues already exist. In other news - I looked around the shop and most of the upper receivers on our demo guns were changed prior to shot show so we had ones that didn't looks so neglected for the show. So - the testing we've done since we've been back doesn't really show anything - as we probably haven't put 1000 rounds through any of them. Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/18/2008 3:43:31 PM EDT
[#34]
If this has already been addressed i apologize but what if we have a 14.5 barrel with a comp already perm installed does the cost of your installation include its removal? (its a pws comp btw
 )
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Posted: 2/19/2008 4:43:26 AM EDT
[#35]
The permanence of the install is the big question in these situations. Some so-called blind pins aren't very blind and can easily be removed. Some are done quite well and are thus are very difficult to remove. I guess the big picture is that there is no yes/no answer for this one - we'll have to look at it on a very case by case basis.
My thought is that some comps will come off very easily and some might be all but destroyed trying to get them off. I know that is a very vague answer, but that is really where it is at without seeing each setup individually. Todd |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 9:45:26 AM EDT
[#36]
Oh i was expecting the comp that was on their to be destroyed during removal and had planed on replacing it with your newer version.
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Posted: 2/19/2008 11:23:42 AM EDT
[#37]
If you are buying our piston system and one of our muzzle devices and understand that your old device will most likely be destroyed, I couldn't begin to think of charging you more to remove the old one.
Hope this helps. Todd |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 12:36:52 PM EDT
[#38]
I might have missed it but are these piston upgrades a go for a midlength 6.8 SPC wearing a Larue rail ???
Thanks Mark |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 1:07:14 PM EDT
[#39]
Tim at Cardinal Armory (formerly Ko-tonics) is setting up to do 6.8SPC conversions. Right now, the plan is to have everything in place to start conversions in April. Tim is currently testing a prototype conversion to make sure everything works correctly. If your middy is wearing a LT 9.0, the PWS gas block will work with it. I'm in line for Tim to convert my 6.8SPC SBR and I am chomping at the bit for him to be ready to go. |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 1:48:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Thanks for the info. I believe he is a fellow North Carolinian. Time to get on the list. |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 2:07:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Maybe I missed it, but does the bolt and carrier come with the kit?
thx |
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Posted: 2/19/2008 2:10:16 PM EDT
[#42]
cool beans see you at tax refund time! |
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Posted: 2/23/2008 2:24:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quick corrections: I have asked PWS to hold on to my test upper, pending some minor changes being made to the piston cap. I am as anxious as you guys to get my hands on it! This week I'll be getting 1,000 rounds loaded for testing, in eager anticipation. Also ARguy, no early orders accepted! I don't take deposits on products that are not on the shelf ready to ship. Just everyone please be patient. Good things really do come to those who wait. And I believe this will be very well worth the wait. - Tim |
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Posted: 2/24/2008 11:28:13 PM EDT
[#44]
How is the 7.62x39 project coming along? Im ready to build one! ETA: Are the conversions going to be avilable for lighter profile barrels? or just .750? |
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Posted: 2/25/2008 6:33:37 AM EDT
[#45]
We're testing the 7.62x39 right now - making sure we have magazines to go along with them and such. for now we are going to stay with the .750 barrel diameter. We will consider the .625 blocks once we get a handle on production of the .750.
Todd |
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Posted: 2/25/2008 7:36:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Did you guys ever find a good source for barrels? What are you testing with? |
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Posted: 2/25/2008 1:09:11 PM EDT
[#47]
We are testing barrels now - so the source is top secret until we decide which ones we want to use.
Seriously though - we are testing a couple different ones and will know more within the next month. Todd |
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Posted: 2/26/2008 11:25:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Can you tell us if the 7.62x39 barrels are chrome lined???????
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Posted: 2/26/2008 4:13:59 PM EDT
[#49]
+1 |
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Posted: 2/26/2008 7:17:44 PM EDT
[#50]
will a standard A2 rifle handguard fit over this design?
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