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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:04:14 AM EDT
[#1]
This is what I call a class and professional responce. 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:44:10 AM EDT
[#2]
I have 7 of D+H W/ magpul followers stamped 10/05. All seven function perfectly.
Hope this works out for you guys, I think .44 mag has great customer service. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:46:51 AM EDT
[#3]
+1 |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 7:13:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Some might even call it a "response". 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 11:56:39 AM EDT
[#5]
None of the board vendors that sell D&H mags have replied to this thread. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:03:03 PM EDT
[#6]
I seriously doubt that any will. I would gladly be proven wrong however. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#7]
paranoia tag
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:51:04 PM EDT
[#8]
What type of reply were you looking for? I don’t think the vendors have any intelligent info to add ? Since our sale we have shipped 10,000 plus mags. Out of all of those I currently have a maximum of 2 customers that will be returning mags. This is worth repeating; 10,000+ individual magazines in the last month, with 2 customers returning mags. When I do receive those two orders, I can take them over to D&H and ask them to look at them. When I get some info I will be happy to pass it along.  Thanks, Paul BCo. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:23:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Don't knock the dealers here. There is no way they could know that a number of mags to get out. They certainly wouldn't want to sell bad mags here, where any word would certainly get out. I'm sure they would return them the D&H themselves. Paul at Bravo Company is a stand up guy. I sent him an instant message around 1:00 a.m. and there was a response when I flipped the computer on this morning.
TS 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:31:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Ok, I have done some more testing.
Comparing the D&H 12/05 Mags to my Centerline mags. On the D&H the underside of the feed lips are sharp and causing the brass to drag and to put ALL the pressure of the round on the sharp edges. I have MOST 80% of my FTF’s on the RIGHT side of the MAG as was previously stated. The front part of the feed lip where the bullet leaves the mag when push forward by the bolt is flat and has NO upward angle to it. I wanted to see if the mags could be made to work better with use, and yes they do seam to get better with use. Which would be FINE if D&H shipped each mag with 500 rounds of ammo for testing/deburing! I would defiantly buy more then! I repeatedly pulled the charging handle back and unloaded the same mag 10 times or 300 rounds. (My arms are falling off now!) It did seam to improve the performance of the mag some. I think it would be easier to just debur the mag like previously shown, except I would ONLY work on the feed lips. I would debur the inside edge, and slightly file the front of the feed lips with just a LITTLE upward angle. NOW, if you WANT to do this, THEN it is UP TO YOU! H&K I am in GA and will be driving down to the FL Keys so I just might give Larry at C products a call and see about popping in on him. I wonder how Larry’s Stainless Steel mags compare with the H&K’s. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:35:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Ed,
Have a SS mag waiting for you. I am right off of 75. Keys? I just may join you, great place to chill out. Larry C Products |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:45:17 PM EDT
[#12]
So with you guys who have reported trouble - is it only when hand cycling ammo - or have you found problems when actually shooting them?
I have the same issue when hand cycling/initial chambering... but I havent actually test fired them for performance. When I tested mags that were failing to feed from the right side in my carbine.... I took that same mag to a different weapon (potentially a stronger buffer spring), and it stripped just fine, every time. I am *speculating* that this problem is related to a strong mag spring, and a rough feedlip edge... that might not fail when actually being fired? |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:49:44 PM EDT
[#13]
I had actual fail to chamber rounds on the range. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:51:51 PM EDT
[#14]
I have 15 of these mags dated 9/05 with green followers and 30 of them dated 10/05 with the brown magpul followers. So far I have tested 5 of them and they feed fine in my Bushy M4 and my LMT. The problem I have with every one of them is they scatch the hell out of the bullet and brass on every round that comes off the right side feed lip and into the chamber. It seems to me that a scratch this size on the bullet itself would also scrathch the hell out of my barrel. Can anyone say for sure that this could ruin a barrel or a chamber? I always keep very good care of my weapons and this just down right Scares the Hell out of me to put a round in the chamber like that. I think I should send them back.
NOTE: All 45 of my mags have the DSG flooorplate. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:00:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Just returned from the range. Tested 2 DSG mags with dates of 7/05 and 11/05. I could have taken one of my few marked 12/05 but to me they all look exactly the same. Yes, they have the gently curving inward section which is more pronounced on the right side, but there are no burrs and the inside edges are no sharper than any other mags I have. I loaded the mags up and hand cycled from a closed bolt and then fired one round. Drop mag, eject the chambered round, and then load back to capacity and repeat. I did this several times and then gave up and just shot the mags out. I experienced no failures of any kind. My mags were purchased from Rusty and Talon Arms. I have corresponded with DSG via email about these threads and they would very much like to see any mag that will not function returned to them. At this point I can see no reason to do so- they function perfectly.
ETA: I also inspected the fired casings and found no scratches at all. I can see how that would happen if the bolt was ridden forward slowly, but in my case, charging the first round and firing the rounds did not cause scratches. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:04:50 PM EDT
[#16]
I would be concerned about accuracy loss from a scratched bullet but would not worry in the least about damage to the bore or chamber. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:11:36 PM EDT
[#17]
This thread prompted me to go look at mine. I hadn't tried them yet.
I have the problem. I decided to look really carefully at what the probem actually is, so compared the feeding of the D&H mag to a Colt mag. I know what the problem is, and there is a relatively easy fix, but its not really the right solution. The essential problem is in manufacture. Here are the D&H mag (left) and Colt mag (right) loaded with 30 rounds each:  The difference is on the "ears" at the front of the mag. They are much smaller on the D&H mag. I had always assumed that their only role was to hild the follower in -- that seems not to be true. As we start to move the cartridge forward, the ear on the Colt mag starts to touch the case:  Note that there is no contact on the D&H mag. This contact has two effects, it pushes the bullet over towards the center, and lifts it slightly:  You can just see the bullet still in contact on the D&H mag, and lifted on the Colt mag. Here are a couple more photos to help make that clear:   By the time the neck of the case gets to the front wall of the mag, the ear on the Colt mag has the bullet and case neck lifted well up out of the way:     The Colt mag is on the left in the last photo. The problem is that the neck of the case hits the sharp, square edge of the front of the mag. With all the spring pressure of a fully loaded mag, it takes a LOT of effort to persuade it to slide up and over the obstruction. What I have tried, and seems to work, is to carefully round/chamer the inner edge of the mag front wall to allow the case neck to slide over it more easily. This seems to fix the problem, but of course is really not how it is supposed to work (as far as I can see). I have compared to Brownells mags too - they have the same size "ears" as the Colt mags and similarly tilt the bullet inwards and upwards as it slides forwards, so I am guessing that this is how they are supposed to work. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:31:46 PM EDT
[#19]
I just tried this with a Colt mag and a DSG and could not duplicate your results. Neither mags allows the neck to contact the front of the mag. The DSG actually orients the bullet more towards the center of the mag than the Colt and has a less notched end due to the inward sloping side. I can feel the slight resistance this causes on the Colt mag as the shoulder contacts this area. The DSG does not have a pronounced bend at this juncture. YMMV... |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:33:28 PM EDT
[#20]
PhilipPeake,
Great photos and explanation of what you're observing. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:37:54 PM EDT
[#21]
So yours has more pronounced ears than mine? It must do if it lifts the bullet. You can see my problem (with all 4 mags) in the photos, there are sharp edges which leave scratches on the cases, and that definately doesn't help, but the big hang-up is hitting the front edge with the case mouth. Looks like there might be more than one problem with these ... just loose manufacturing tolerances. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:38:10 PM EDT
[#22]
edhall,
My mags are DSG so maybe it is only the D&H marked mags that are exhibiting problems. I was trying to add some live fire experience of these Teflon mags that exhibit the sloping inward sidewall, or whatever this area of the mag is called. Like I said I would try a 12/05 marked mag, and I will cycle some rounds in one indoors (without firing ), but they look EXACTLY the same as my other dated mags. I will mic them later. Maybe it is only one batch of D&H floorplate mags that are having problems. Just adding my info regarding DSG mags so that everyone does not think that all of the mags produced by D&H (in the millions as I have been told) are defective...
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:40:46 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:58:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Ummm, all that is really neat - and those are good pictures.... but I am afraid your results and assumptions are in error. The ears of the mag are NOT designed to guide the bullet/cartridge. You must realize, when a round is guided out of the mag (when the mag is out of a weapon) it doesn't mean anything. That is NOT how bullets feed when the mag is IN the weapon. When the mag is in the weapon, the bullet tip hits the feedramp LONG before that ear comes into play, and that ear doesnt get anywhere near the case.... as the feedramp guides the cartridge upwards, away from all of that stuff. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:01:28 PM EDT
[#25]
"Which would be FINE if D&H shipped each mag with 500 rounds of ammo for testing/deburing! I would defiantly buy more then!"
This is exactly what I am thinking. I think there haven't been a lot reported yet because there are lots of people like me that are hoarding mags. We buy the mags and just store them somewhere. I probably have 40 D&H mags laying around but have only used two of them. Both had failure to feed issues and scratched the hell out of the round. So now I have to load up 40 mags to test them out. Thats 1200 rounds of ammo. That's over $200. It just seems like a big hassle to me. Maybe I'll sell my D&H mags and buy all CP mags. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:04:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I bought (qty 15) D&H 30 rds black teflon mags with DSG plates last December with 11/05 date stamps.
(Qty 8) of them I've upgraded with Magpul followers, Wolff springs and Ranger plates but (qty I only tested 3 mags so far with Magpul followers, stock springs and Ranger plates (bolt release and hand cycling - 28th & 27th rounds only) with both my Colt M16A2 upper My control mags which I know works are my old pre-ban Colt and new HK gen 2 mags. I have 12 more mags to test this weekend and I'll just update this post when completed. ETA: All (qty 15) of my mags PASSED my noted test. See the two corrected changes (red) in quantities of types of my magazine's configuration above. Note also that I changed my testing procedure by only using my M16A2 upper without M4 feedramps to have a worst case setup. I also learned from my test when using the LULA mag loader to unload, the green followers most of the time tilts and jam, at extreme downward (90 degrees down) angle. My mags with Magpul followers don't tilt and don't jam when I unload them the same way with the LULA. I have to get more Magpul followers for all my unmodified mags. My next and final test would be at the shooting range. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:54:05 PM EDT
[#27]
I have mags from a couple of dealers that will not load a round with thirty rounds in and are single shot until down to 20ish rounds. The bullet tip goes directly into the receiver extension, not the feed ramps.
TS
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:09:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Well, I put the mag into an AR and released the charging handle slowly -- tapping the round out of the mag. You are right, the ramps in the barrel extension pick up the bullet quite early and guide the round in and up away from the front edge. What is surprising is that it would fail to load quite repeatably until I took the sharp inner edge off the front wall. Now it loads with no problem at all -- every time. I wonder if the case drags over that front edge at some point? That, plus the sharp edges on the lips might be what is the problem, and removing just that bit of friction was enough to fix the problem?? I can still easily slid out the top round without the case neck catching on all my mags except this D&H batch. 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:20:23 PM EDT
[#29]
From what I can tell right now - this is the key area. Several of my mags, after running 60 rounds trhough them, smooth out and run much better - and I can see strong brass markings on the forward edge of the lip. Of course - all the failure I have had thus far were when hand cycling, or releasing the bolt carrier from the bolt release, not under actual firing. RANGE REPORT with D&H mags. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=276054&page=1 |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:31:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Don't know the dates on all of mine but they work just fine.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:55:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Mine are dated 1/06 and hand feed OK. I will update when possible.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 12:56:53 AM EDT
[#32]
16 D&H 30 rnd mags marked 9/05
14 D&H 20 rnd purchased last spring and last fall, don't know dates 20 T-65 mags purchased last spring A new rifle with weak buffer spring had trouble stripping and feeding all fully loaded mags(D&H 20 rnders and T-65s I had at the time), not one problem after changing buffer spring to wolff xp spring with 3 coils clipped off to avoid short stroking. My newer D&H 30 rnd mags have never failed to feed and I load a full 30rnds. I'll buy more as needed. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:01:40 AM EDT
[#33]
I have a bunch (20) D&H 30-round black teflons with orange magpul floorplates. I have a shift in the guard tower tonight so I will test all of them all the way through 30rds (hand-cycling, I obviously can't let loose with 600 rounds off the FOB
 ) and let you guys know.I hope I haven't been relying on these to safe my life only to find they don't work properly! I definitely should have tested them more vigorously. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 7:56:10 AM EDT
[#34]
I dug out four D and H mags (thirty rounds, black finish, green follower, 3/05) that I had loaded up. Two were in the "new, function test next time I go shooting" pile, the other two were in the "zombie eradication/SHTF" pile.
I think the two I had "tested" already were used once or twice at the range and then I put them right into the "serious business" pile because I have had such good luck with DPMS teflon mags. I checked them out, and all of them had very sharp edges on the feed lips, causing the rounds to strip off with a lot of drag and the rounds all came out with a very deep scratch all the way up the case. I followed PapaFoxtrot's suggestion and broke the edges on the underside of the feedlips. I also rounded over the front edge where the leading edge of the cartridge neck wants to catch if you strip rounds off by hand. The rounds strip off much smoother now, with less preasure needed to do so. I have four more in wrappers that I will have to take apart and smooth up. Not a huge deal, but I probably won't buy anymore of that brand. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:01:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Were you pushing the rounds out slowly by hand, with the mag not in the weapon? Or were you using the charging handle/bolt release with the mag in the weapon? |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:04:42 AM EDT
[#36]
I've also noticed this problem in some of mine, and when the bolt comes forward it "jams" the round and I have to hand cycle it in order to get it to chamber. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:20:35 AM EDT
[#37]
I was pushing the rounds out by hand. I will say clearly that I had no feed problems with the two mags I took to the range. They fed my rifle just fine, or they would not have been in the "business" pile. Most likely the rest of the mags would work just fine without my "tweeking". The difference between the force needed to strip rounds off of these fresh mags and the other brands I tried was significant. They probably would smooth out by simply using them, but then what would I have to post about? |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:31:53 AM EDT
[#38]
Yes. As was posted by FALARAK, the rounds barely contact the side of the mag when cycled with the mag in the weapon. Testing any mag when it is not in the weapon, with rounds being stripped by hand is a moot point, because this is not how the rounds will feed. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:51:47 AM EDT
[#39]
My problems are with 11/05 mags. I have some 8/05 mags that have no problems. All 11/05 mags I have jam the round against the barrel extension when loading first round, then some jam and some don't.
 TS
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Posted: 3/25/2006 9:12:58 AM EDT
[#40]
What about the DSG D&H high reliability mags that come upgraded with wolff springs (+magpuls & RPs)? Are people having trouble with these too? Were any of these bought in the rush as well?
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Posted: 3/25/2006 3:16:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Mine run flawless.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 3:44:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Ok I spent ALL DAY at the range.
The one mag I was using is better but still has some issues and requires EXTRA force to make it run. I am POSITIVE that a person can make the Mags work if you smooth the burrs and mess with the lips a bit. I will not be doing that however. I will drop this issue now, I have decided to send back the D&H as soon as I have Larry’s mags to test in comparison. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:32:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Please change title of this thread to include 11/05 also.
Its clear now that some of thr 12/05 and 11/05 D&H mags have metal burs on the right front lip causing problems with the mags performance. My 8/05 work fine. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 6:15:52 AM EDT
[#44]
I have five 11/05s and five 12/05s that have shown less than perfect reliability after testing last night.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 6:50:31 AM EDT
[#45]
Please explain so the rest of us may know. |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 9:06:55 AM EDT
[#46]
I looked at some more of my mags this morning. One had a problem.
I performed the same surgery as I did on the previous one -- chamfering the inside edge of the front wall, and touching up with Aluma-Black and now works fine. The feed lips do have sharp edges, and I think its a combination of the friction caused by this, and the case rubbing on the front wall that causes the problem, fixing either one of those areas seems to be enough -- fixing both would be ideal. I just need the time to do it. I suspect all of the mags would work fine after the first couple of loads, so that may be a more enjoyable way to fix these things than hacking at them ... |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 10:35:40 AM EDT
[#47]
I just got back from the range after testing 8 of my D&H gray teflon mags. 5 were 11/05 and 3 were 1/06. I loaded each up with 30 rounds of new Wolfe 62 grain. All performed without a skip except for one 11/05. It had two failures to feed(2nd and 3rd rounds to fire) that were easily corrected with the CH. Both rounds partially fed and stopped prior to entering the chamber. Each magazine was inserted with the bolt retracted and locked back. The bolt release was used to chamber the first round. The upper is an all Bushmaster patrolmans rifle. The lower is a Superior Arms that I assembled.
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Posted: 3/26/2006 12:06:51 PM EDT
[#48]
Always and I mean always check the mags out at the range before ever thinking of useing for Protection!
Does your mags rattle when loaded? Mine do? but they do Feed and work! |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 2:02:41 PM EDT
[#49]
I would say most mags rattle when loaded. When a mag is loaded the bullets that are located near the part of the mag where it starts to bend, thoose bullets are kind of free floating and that is what causes the rattle |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 7:57:05 PM EDT
[#50]
my 6 20 rounders have the deformity, but run fine
I have two 30's, both 12/05 with the deformity, but run fine too. Just pulled out an 03 LE Bushy 20 mag, it has the rear line on the left side also... |
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