I checked and tested my 3 D&H 11/05 black mags and found no issues.

Quoted: I checked 20 of these mags, and they functioned perfectly in a properly functioning and quality AR15 with an M16 carrier. My Colt's leave identical scratches on the bullets. Isn't internet hype great?

lol

Quoted: Quoted: Always and I mean always check the mags out at the range before ever thinking of useing for Protection! Does your mags rattle when loaded? Mine do? but they do Feed and work! I would say most mags rattle when loaded.  When a mag is loaded the bullets that are located near the part of the mag where it starts to bend,  thoose bullets are kind of free floating and that is what causes the rattle

Ive been shooting Mini 14`s and AR15`s for a time now 80`S

My OLD COLT 20 /USGI Metal Followers  Loaded   MAKE NO RATTLEING SOUNDS PERIOD!


This is why I asked if its normal for the NEW ones?

Quoted: Isn't internet hype great?

Are you trying to say people are making this shit up???  

Ya, know,

What is it with people these days.

Can't you make ANY points with out calling people assholes?

Didn't your mother teach you ANY manners?

Oh and as far as properly functioning firearms,

I would think my 1 Brand New Rock River, My 2 Bush masters, and My 1 used Rock River, AND the dealers BRAND NEW 5 DMPS AR's might lead me to believe it's a mag issue,

But let me think on it some more, I might be wrong.


Not ALL the D&H mags have problems.

But then again a stopped watch is correct twice a day!

Quoted: Out of all these mags sold, a couple have problems. Is this a mag problem? Or could it be an operator or equiptment problem?

Well I have 80 that have a problem.  80.  I can easily demonstrate the issue.  They fail to strip the first round from the mag, when released from the bolt release, about 90% of the time.  The problems in this thread are very real.  I took them to a dealer, and showed what was happening.  He tried them in his gun, and they ran 100%.  His gun had a stronger buffer spring, and M4 feedramps.  But you *could* see the difference.

*I have not taken them to the range to see how they function under live fire*  That will be the test for me.  If they run - then I know that first round issue *should* smooth out in no time.

Some guns, with stronger buffer springs, or M4 feedramps,. likely wont show the problem.  Also, we noticed, the more ammo we cycled, the smoother they got.  There was a lot of brass filling the sharp burrs on the feedlips, which was aiding smooth feeding.

You can say what you want.... but I can tell you - I dont think these mags are "defective", but without question, they exhibit behavior when new, in a decent percentage of weapons, that is not favorable.  This has been noted.

Keep sitting around with a magnifying glass staring at all your equiptment, your bound to find something.

No magnifying glass necessary.  As reported - insert loaded mag in known good weapons, that run perfect on Okay, Center, Sanchez, Adventureline mags.  Hit bolt release - weapon fails to chamber the round.  Sharp feedlips are noted, and scratches present on brass that other mags dont exhibit.  You dont have be to a genious to figure out SOMETHING is different.  

These CP mags that everyone is salivating over will have a dumbass thread about the third weld from the top is shifted to the left half a mm, eventually.

I agree - the board can fly off the handle about little things sometimes.... but this is getting more and more widely reported.



RANGE REPORT with D&H mags.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=17&t=276054&page=1

All qty 15 of my black teflon dated 11/05 D&H mags with DSG floor plates PASSED my test this weekend.

Just to summarize my test, I used my Colt M16A2 upper without M4 feedramps, with Colt M16 BCG, recoil spring and buffer.

I tested only the 28th and 27th rounds by releasing the bolt with the bolt release button.

I have different mag configurations some have Magpul followers, Wolff springs, Magpul Ranger plates and some unmodified stock.

See the first post of page 4 of this thread for more details.

Glad to see yours passed.

How strong is your buffer spring by chance.

There *is* a problem. It seems to be afairly simple one - the magazine bodies are stamped out of sheet metal, the stamping leaves sharp edges. Those sharp edges create much more friction than is normal - enough so that the first round will not strip.

Unfortunately, I don't have a new Colt magazine to compare the edges on. My *guess* is that either the presses used for the stamping operation leave sharper than normal edges, the metal used is slightly different, resulting in sharper edges, or a step to round off the edges was missed in manufacture.

Whatever the reason, a bit of work removing those sharp edges and they function perfectly.
However, that is work that you would not normally have to perform on a new magazine.

Just because someone has a batch which happen to work ok in a particular rifle doesn't mean that there is no problem.

Is it a serious problem - well, now that we know about it, no. But if someone was betting their lives on these magazines and hadn't tested for the problem and fixed it if it existed, they would be mighty unhappy.

Quoted: Glad to see yours passed. How strong is your buffer spring by chance.

My buffer spring should be fairly strong, it's a Colt M16A2 spring which came with my new Colt M16A2 buttstock kit.

I only tested three out of my fifteen mags (which is the usually required 20% sampling specified by the best quality standards) with my Colt 6721 carbine with Vltor buffer spring, stock buffer and buffer tube (kit), Colt M16 BCG and all three are OK.

The reason that I didn't check more mags with my carbine is that it have M4 feedramps which might help the testing results.

Next time I'm going to test at least seven more mags that I didn't try yet with my carbine to be sure and my feeling is they should be fine too.

I'll probably get more D&H mags later on but I'm going to test them at home and at the range first before having confidence with them.

I personally use the rule that if I may ever have to use the mag for serious social purposes (self defense), every mag has to be tested with at least 2 full loads of ammo. Costs more, but my life is worth it.

It's not the odds of a failure, but the potential stakes.

As an observer, I was surprised how crappy the Colt and the D&H mag lips looked on the origianal pictures!  They looked like somebody had taken a ball peen hammer and a punch to make them right.

To me, the stamping process is flawed, even though millions of the mags work anyway?!  All mine work that I purchased form 44mag but they have the DS floor plates.  Either way, I would think by this time, that the mag lips on any brand would be better than what the pictures looked like.  

No problems with my 3/05 and 8/05 mags. Was going to order some more but I guess I will wait a bit. Appreciate these threads for the info. I do notice the alum is a bit sharper on the 8/05 so I wonder if the stamping machine pattern or die was wearing out.

Does anyone have access to the military specifications? Be nice to measure the suspect dimensions vs. "in spec".

Well, I have thirty bad mags from guys I hate to send them back to.  I've been told to send them back by each of them and I hope D&H does right by them.  I'm sure D&H will check, check and re-check their dies, tools and QC.  It sucks that this happened to anyone, including D&H.  I'm sure no one would be sending back perfectly good mags.  

TS

Quoted: Well, I have thirty bad mags from guys I hate to send them back to.  I've been told to send them back by each of them and I hope D&H does right by them.  I'm sure D&H will check, check and re-check their dies, tools and QC.  It sucks that this happened to anyone, including D&H.  I'm sure no one would be sending back perfectly good mags.   TS

I don't know about that. According to some folk here, we who are having problems must either have it in for D&H or be crazy. After all, THEY don't have any problems. Of course some of them also sell D&H and have a vested interest in this subject going away quietly.

FWIW,

I bought 5 D&H black teflon, magpul, 30 rounders in March.  I initially filled 3 of them, and chambered the first round using the bolt release: no problem.  Scratches were left on the rounds.

I just got some new ammo, so I just reloaded 4 of them, and 2 of them failed to feed the first round using the bolt release.  They fed fine when pulling back the charge handle and releasing.  Scratches were left on the rounds.

I have a Bushmaster.

I think the poll would be a little more meaningful if there was an option for "no problems".

Mine were marked 04/Q4.  How are you determinig the manufacture date?

JohnJohn,

The date is stamped on the side of the mag body such as 12 05, these are RECENT production mags. I far as I know the floor plates contain NO information on the manufacture date.

Many vendors are replacing the floor plates with their (Selling Vendor) information and reselling them.





RUSTY

"edhall I think you're comments in your original post are BS and out of line. Unless of course you have some sort of inside info about D&H's commitment to military units around the world you'd like to share..."


RUSTY, ARE YOU ACTING AS A LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE OF D&H?

CAN WE TAKE YOUR STATEMENTS AS COMING DIRECTLY FROM D&H?


Well Guys, I am just going to go cry now, RUSTY said my comments about the mags having problems are BS.  So all you guys with mag problems, RUSTY thinks you are JUST NUTS!

I guess I must be NUTS too, because I HAVE THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM WITH MY MAGS!
Oh Yea, I am also out of line!  

Rusty if I am out of line STATE SPECIFICS, don't make blanket statements.

I wasn't going to bring this up, BUT,  Ok Rusty, DID OR DID NOT THE MILITARY SEND BACK A LARGE ORDER OF THE D&H MAGS BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS?

Be careful of your answer RUSTY, because I WILL get the TRUTH OUT THERE!

I have heard rumors of this, but I have NO PROOF.

So if you want to do something RUSTY, SUE ME!

Otherwise, figure out what is going on and help to fix it!

Because SO FAR YOU HAVE BEEN NO HELP!

I happen to like the finish on the D&H mags, and I WISH THEY WORKED WITH OUT HAVING TO FILE THE FEED LIPS!

I have an issue with the problem mags, NOT D&H.  

PRETENDING THAT THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH SOME MAGS IS INSANE,

AND WILL GET SOMEONE KILLED!!!!!!!

I will let the people that HAVE the mags, make that decision NOT the DEALER that has a VESTED interest.

I can not seem to change the Poll, as I would put in the,” I have no problems” option.

Maybe a Moderator can give some assistance here!

Quoted: Ya, know, What is it with people these days. Can't you make ANY points with out calling people assholes? Didn't your mother teach you ANY manners? Oh and as far as properly functioning firearms, I would think my 1 Brand New Rock River, My 2 Bush masters, and My 1 used Rock River, AND the dealers BRAND NEW 5 DMPS AR's might lead me to believe it's a mag issue, But let me think on it some more, I might be wrong. Not ALL the D&H mags have problems. But then again a stopped watch is correct twice a day!

So, because of your shitty experience all of a sudden ALL DH mags suck? Get a life troll.

Learn to READ.

I NEVER SAID THAT ALL D&H MAGS SUCK!

Learn to READ, I hear Slyvan has a good program!

Guys - keep it civil - and keep it focuses on the issue.

Getting personal will just get the thread locked, and the discussion squashed.  This is about mags, and potentially an issue being observed with those mags.  Lets keep the discussion that way.  (I know I am as guilty as the next guy)

Quoted: I wasn't going to bring this up, BUT,  Ok Rusty, DID OR DID NOT THE MILITARY SEND BACK A LARGE ORDER OF THE D&H MAGS BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS? Be careful of your answer RUSTY, because I WILL get the TRUTH OUT THERE! I have heard rumors of this, but I have NO PROOF.

This thread has already been about as hysterical and defammatory as possible, especially with the original title to the thread: "D&H mags SUCK, yada, yada" or whatever the exact wording was (it has since been changed for those who are late to the game).

Soooo, why don't you just come out with the info? What harm is it going to do that hasn't already been done? And some of you are wondering why Rusty is trying to defend his business after all this drama. Now, that's hysterical.

Caveat Emptor!



Ok here is where I drop this thread totally.


Here is why.

1.  If you have ANY Mags you should check them ALL!

2.  If you buy a case of Mags and don't check them, well, may God have mercy on your soul because the first time you use your equipment you just might end up meeting him in person!

3.  If you have D&H Mags that HAVE problems then you KNOW they have problems, don't second guess yourself.

4.  If you have D&H Mags that DO NOT HAVE problem, then you KNOW they don't have problems, don't second guess yourself.

5.  If you're too INDECISIVE to make up you're mind, than PLEASE DO US ALL A FAVOR, JUST PUT DOWN THE FIREARM BEFORE YOU HURT YOU'RE SELF OR SOMEONE ELSE!

6.  You probably already decided to either FIX them or send them back.  

And finally the most IMPORTANT REASON OF ALL!

I HAVE DECIEDE HOW TO SOLVE MY MAG PROBLEM!

Quoted: edhall - Sorry you don't find our test shoot and customer information useful that I provided. It was meant as a reference point for users that log on and see an acerbic 'D&H sucks' threads like yours. Your specific comments - that I quoted - are BS. Your posts come across strong for a member with less than 100 posts and implying that a mfr would send defective gear to troops in the field is pretty strong. Why would I want to sue you? I must have missed something in your posts... To answer your question to me - no- we have not had any mags returned by .mil or LE or PMC's that do not function. Again; If you have some info you'd like to share - go ahead.  You seem to know much about the subject... Quoted: JohnJohn, The date is stamped on the side of the mag body such as 12 05, these are RECENT production mags. I far as I know the floor plates contain NO information on the manufacture date. Many vendors are replacing the floor plates with their (Selling Vendor) information and reselling them. RUSTY "edhall I think you're comments in your original post are BS and out of line. Unless of course you have some sort of inside info about D&H's commitment to military units around the world you'd like to share..." RUSTY, ARE YOU ACTING AS A LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE OF D&H? CAN WE TAKE YOUR STATEMENTS AS COMING DIRECTLY FROM D&H? Well Guys, I am just going to go cry now, RUSTY said my comments about the mags having problems are BS.  So all you guys with mag problems, RUSTY thinks you are JUST NUTS! I guess I must be NUTS too, because I HAVE THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM WITH MY MAGS! Oh Yea, I am also out of line!   Rusty if I am out of line STATE SPECIFICS, don't make blanket statements. I wasn't going to bring this up, BUT,  Ok Rusty, DID OR DID NOT THE MILITARY SEND BACK A LARGE ORDER OF THE D&H MAGS BECAUSE OF PROBLEMS? Be careful of your answer RUSTY, because I WILL get the TRUTH OUT THERE! I have heard rumors of this, but I have NO PROOF. So if you want to do something RUSTY, SUE ME! Otherwise, figure out what is going on and help to fix it! Because SO FAR YOU HAVE BEEN NO HELP! I happen to like the finish on the D&H mags, and I WISH THEY WORKED WITH OUT HAVING TO FILE THE FEED LIPS! I have an issue with the problem mags, NOT D&H.   PRETENDING THAT THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH SOME MAGS IS INSANE, AND WILL GET SOMEONE KILLED!!!!!!! I will let the people that HAVE the mags, make that decision NOT the DEALER that has a VESTED interest. I can not seem to change the Poll, as I would put in the,” I have no problems” option. Maybe a Moderator can give some assistance here!

Since when does ones post count make someone a BS artist. It seems to me that you have nothing here to offer in the way of help you are only concerned about your business and when someone questions you or needs help you insult him. I seem to remember a post where you are bad mouthing the new H&K mags saying they were double feeding kind of like calling the kettle black right Rusty but that's ok because you dont sell H&K mags do you. I bought 30 of these shitty mags from you and I will not spend another dime in your store because of the way you have handle this. You sir have your head in the sand or you are lying.

I've bought many times from DSG and will continue to do so. I appreciate them posting here and sharing their testing info. Hell I might order some more mags right now just to piss off you crybabies.

If you have mags you actually USE that have an issue either fix them yourself or send them back. Holy shit a mag only has four damn parts, if you need to tweak it a little it's not brain surgery. Don't think you should have to? Then send them back.

JUST QUIT YER BITCHIN!

Quoted: Since when does ones post count make someone a BS artist. It seems to me that you have nothing here to offer in the way of help you are only concerned about your business and when someone questions you or needs help you insult him. I seem to remember a post where you are bad mouthing the new H&K mags saying they were double feeding kind of like calling the kettle black right Rusty but that's ok because you dont sell H&K mags do you. I bought 30 of these shitty mags from you and I will not spend another dime in your store because of the way you have handle this. You sir have your head in the sand or you are lying.

whoa dude. give the man a break - he's offereing to check out if your mags won't work and deal with it. why all the hate?

the man probably has more of his and his family's fortune tied up in his business than most of us will ever see so be a little respectful of someone being cautious about their frickin life and livelihood!

I have 6 of the 12/05 mags (not from Rusty) and they all leave scratches and show sticky feeding. instead of getting my panties in a wad, I'm jst gonna follow the thread and then probably just massage the sharp edges on the feed lips until it's OK. no loss of life, or national emergencies, etc.

geez guy, you may want to try the decaf from now on...

Quoted: Since when does ones post count make someone a BS artist. It seems to me that you have nothing here to offer in the way of help you are only concerned about your business and when someone questions you or needs help you insult him. I seem to remember a post where you are bad mouthing the new H&K mags saying they were double feeding kind of like calling the kettle black right Rusty but that's ok because you dont sell H&K mags do you. I bought 30 of these shitty mags from you and I will not spend another dime in your store because of the way you have handle this. You sir have your head in the sand or you are lying.

speaking about having your head in the sand...

DSG is a good company.

Look Rusty may be a great guy I don't know and don't really care if he is. What I do know is that at least 50 to 60 members here and probably a lot more have had problems with the D&H mags that number in the hundreds so this is not just a couple of people or a few mags that have had issues with the D&H brand and for him to say that there have been no problems reported is BS.

+1 for Rusty and DSG, just because a few of us are having "issues" with some mags, these guys are great and I WILL continue to do business with them.

EDIT: Sorry Nevemind i did not read all of it before posting

Well, I hate to be "that" guy, but $6 right here for any for any UNMODIFIED D&H teflon 30 rd. mag.

Yeah, lets talk about the couple hundred mags that don't work out if the hundreds of thousands that do and we'll call that some kind of major issue that needs immediate attention.

What do you wanna bet most of the guys who cycled rounds manually were not pulling the charging handle ALL THE WAY BACK and then letting go.

This thread is ridiculous.

tag

Quoted: Yeah, lets talk about the couple hundred mags that don't work out if the hundreds of thousands that do and we'll call that some kind of major issue that needs immediate attention. What do you wanna bet most of the guys who cycled rounds manually were not pulling the charging handle ALL THE WAY BACK and then letting go. This thread is ridiculous.

Hey genious.

The AR15/M16 system is designed to be able to perform a mag change from the bolt catch.  Bolt locks back on last round, you change to a fresh full mag, insert, rap bolt release, and the weapon *should* chamber the round.  On these mags in question, it does not, in many weapons.  It can be clearly seen that the feedlips are very sharp, and it appears to take too much force to strip the round from the mag.  Maybe not on all of them, but on all of them I have tried.  A typical Okay or Sanchez USGI mag does not exhibit this behavior.  

There is NO requirement to pull the CH all the way back each time you change mags, and that is not taught in weapons training, to ignore the function of the bolt release.

Besides, even when pulled completely to the rear by the CH, mine fail to feed about 60% of the time on a full mag.

I'll add your comments on the "ridiculous" pile.  


Why is it when someone reports a problem with anything from just about any vendor.... there immediately form two camps:

One camp who flies off the handle, screaming everything is total worthless crap, and that the sky is falling.

The other camp of people who know nothing about the situation, keep their head in the sand, but blast anyone who is having the problem as some kind of village idiot?


Why can't we just discuss what we are observing, and talk about why it might be happening, and how to fix it?  

What bothers me the most is when a vendor calls into question someones "Post Count" or his over thinking of his mags that problem might be in his head or says his comments are BS. That is a big RED FLAG and to me is a piss poor way of doing business. I had to use a dremel on my mags to make them run right but when you spend $300 on new GI spec mags they should run 100% out of the box!

FALARAK,

You went over to DSG with your mags in person, correct? What was the resolution to the problems you were experiencing? Did you exchange the mags for ones that would work? I think this information would be more pertinent to this thread than anything else at this time.

Quoted: FALARAK, You went over to DSG with your mags in person, correct? What was the resolution to the problems you were experiencing? Did you exchange the mags for ones that would work? I think this information would be more pertinent to this thread than anything else at this time.

Yes - I did.  I wont speak for Rusty - and he has been great through this - he eagerly wants to understand the issue.  The fact is, there arent a lot of people returning anything to him.  I was holding off posting too much until I get to the range per our agreement.... which will be this saturday.

When placed in *his*weapons, the mags worked much better.  I was blown away, since I tried them in THREE of mine and they behaved the same.  Keep in mind - I have roughly 10 AR's and have been shooting them avidly for the last 5 years.  Not to mention I wrote the mag refinishing articles here on this site, and had a mag business at one time during the ban - so I am no "newbie" to the system, or proper function of the mag or weapon system.


Then we started looking at the differences in weapons, like M4 feedramps, and potentially stronger buffer springs.  I demonstrated what was happening in mine - when I insert a new full mag and hit the bolt release - they would hang almost every single time, and from the full pulled CH, they would hang at least half the time.... until you got about halfway thru the mag.  This is from the left, from the right, round 30, 29, 28, 27, etc....   Then we replaced my buffer spring (even though my weapons run perfect on USGI prebans) with one of his newer ones.  The problem still existed, but at a much reduced rate.

We also noted the more we tested, the better the mag got.... but never completely 100% on the initial load from the bolt release.  We both expect it would smooth out with use.

We agreed that I should actually go fire them.  If they malfunction and hang up feeding under actual use - I will replace my buffer spring with a new spare I have, since I do have many thousands of rounds on this buffer spring.  If they continue to hang up when firing, I would return them.

I expect they will be just fine.  I wont say these mags are "defective" - that is a bit too harsh.... but without question - they exhibit behavior (because of what appears to be sharp feedlips) - where they dont seem to feed reliably from the bolt release.  I have *zero* intention of going through 80 mags and using a debur tool, file, or dremel on them.  They will either work as I (reasonably) expect them to, or they will be returned.  No drama, no emotions.  

I will be documenting my experience on Saturday very thoroughly.

I picked up 3 NIB 11/05 dated black D&H 30-rounders from a local gun show a few weekends back... all 3 work just fine in both my Bushmaster & my beat-up old 1977 vintage Colt SP1... I even used Wolf 55-grain ammo.

Quoted: I will be documenting my experience on Saturday very thoroughly.

Thank you, I look forward to your report.

Just received 5 D&H 30-rounders from 44Mag.  Loaded them up last night and cycled rounds through my Bushy lower/ LMT upper.  There were a bunch of hang-ups that required me to pull the charging handle back again, but nothing lodged/jammed.  The bullet heads got scratched up pretty good.  They look like I tried to slice'n'dice them with a knife.  Anyway, I didn't get a chance to fire them at all, so I think I will wait and try that.