Quoted: The receiver was made in America with all associated costs. The drill press was made in China.

Thank you!  That's the first thing that popped into my head, too.  That drill press is NOT and even trade for a quality stripped AR lower, even though the price may be the same.  

Keep in mind the differences between cost, value, and price.

-Cost is what it takes in materials and labor to make the item.  Associated with this is "opportunity cost" -- because you made that item, you did not make "X" item instead.

-Value is what you, the consumer, thinks the item is worth.  This is your opinion and is a combination of what you think the item costs, its resale value, and how much you want or need it.

-Price is assigned by the seller (though it may be reached through negotiation).  Obviously, a sale will happen when the price is higher than the cost of the item but lower than the value, and the seller has one on hand and the buyer has money (or something to trade).

The difference between the cost to make an AR lower and the price they are going for can be attributed to limited supply and high demand, both of which are partly due to gov't regulation.

Now, I spent weeks looking for a drill press, and came to the conclusion that all of the drill presses within my budget -- an arbitrary amount I decided I was willing to part with to get one -- were pieces of crap made in China.  I'll pay $250 for an American made bench top one, but couldn't seem to find a bench top model made in the US, nor a floor model for under $300+.  It seems that they just don't make what I want.  The manufacturers seem to have decided that they can make more money doing something other than what I want.

You're getting a lot more for your dollar with the AR lower, than with the overpriced Chinese crap.  It never ceases to amaze me how much more labor, QC, and advanced materials go into decent AR parts, compared to everyday crap you see for sale at WalMart.  Good example; a $1300 patio furniture set.  You could get a 6920 or a decked out RRA carbine for that much; what you get instead is something that breaks in a few months because it is made of pot metal and cheap plastic.

Quoted: Because people are willing to pay it.  You could use your analogy with just about any industry.

____________________________

Because, like filing for divorce, it's sooooo worth it!

Quoted: How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one. Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

Welcome to the business world.  That is more or less how it works.

That said, you may find, however, that you really don't make as much as you think, when you calculate your overhead.  You need to make and sell enough to pay all the employees (and CNC operators don't come cheap), as well as taxes, insurance, debt payments (unless you plan to spend cash for everything, and have lots of your own money), as well as contractors, shippers, waste management, permits and licenses, utilities, maintenance, accounting, human resources, the list goes on and on.  No joke.  You pretty much need a staff of employees just to take care of all the hassles generated by having a staff of employees.  It's not like it's just one guy working out of his garage.

Account for;
-Sizeable chunk of aluminum
-Forging machine and all of the necessary components
-Lathes, drills, and other associated machining tools
-The initial product used for finish
-Passing quality tests and other needed requirements
-Shipping costs
-Labor on machinery operation/maintanence
-Labor on product development
-Labor on business arrangements
-Labor on shipping and associated involvements
-Cost of facility/facilities whether renting or having purchased said property
-Time involved in legal requirements
-Advertising
-Warranty in the event of production error
-Computer programs and labor involved in programming

And probably a hundred other things I'm to lazy to think of. It may seem like there's little cost to making a chunk of aluminum, but there's alot more than you are comprehending. Not only that, I was just going off of lower receiver production. I don't even want to know how much it costs to get into the business initially. Many companies outsource, but that doesn't mean they don't have a large amount of time and money in their products and production.

Quoted: It's Bush's fault.

It took almost a page for someone to post this, wow.

I agree completely.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm surprised there's not more people that are on my side.   But then again maybe the people who would be don't care about AR-15's or don't participate in this forum.  Maybe more people would if it wasn't such a racket.  This idiot is so arrogant he quoted himself.  Please don't do anymore posts, F-whatever.

He didn't quote himself, he fudged up on his troll account.  

Jokes aside.  This post is a total troll.
I am 18 and i understand why these parts cost so much ffs.  I am happy to fork out $120 for my LMT buis(TY Denny) and whatever else i want.  The only foriegn component on my rifle is my OKO reddot.  Great sight for $200, but i'd buy an eotech for 350 or whatever if i could do it over again, but the OKO is still imo top quality.

You have to understand that even if these companies producing the products were making such a killing on products there market is so small that they still couldnt get rich because of demand
.
The insurance, employee's salery's, equipment, raw materials, rent, advertising, bills, taxes, shipping ECt cost a LOT.  Couple all that with fairly low demand and you get some high prices.  If a million people wanted a railed handguard they wouldnt cost $400 for a high quality part because the makers could sell them at a lower profit margine because the volume of sales would be greater and they could pull in more money with lower prices.  Obviously the industry would adapt one way or another to mass produce a quality product too.  Right now if LMT dropped the price of a BUIS to $60 they wouldnt be gaining enough new buyers to make up for the price drop, and that is assuming they would be making a profit at $60 at all, which they probably wouldnt be all things considered.

I shop around and get the best deals i can on things, but i won't skimp on quality.
Quality comes with a premium.  I don't want my stuff to just work, i want it to perform to my standards.   When i set my AR on a bench rest and pull the trigger i don't just want to hear bang.  I wan't to see the target at 500 yards take a hit where the sights were aiming.  I also want my sight to still be zero'd too, so i bought a quality BUIS and optic.  I also want to be able to do that without a rest, so i am buying quality training.  $300 for a two day course, i think that is a steal!! (TY Tactical response, see you in oct.)  I want quality so i build my own computers component by component, this is great because it also costs less than buying one from dell(shudders).

The original poster sounds like the type that goes to Wal-mart to buy his furniture while i am buying Solid Oak.  It may costs twice as much and accomplish the same task, but mine will outlast me.  He will need a new desk as soon as his kid decides to use the flimsy particle board desk as a ladder.  I bought enough cheap chinese shit when i was really little to know quality counts.  The only good things i've bought that were chinese were some computer components.  I didn't buy them because they were cheap, but because they were the best quality parts availible.  Epox motherboards, Razer Dback mouses,  Klipsch speakers, ect.  The point is, quality is "expensive" most of the time, deal with it.
A poster in this thread had two wonderful quotes, IIRC they were along the lines of "The thrill of cheap prices is outlived by the anger of  broken product" and "Buying quality is cheaper in the long run".

How true.

Tapco and First Samco bring you all the budget end goodness you coudl ever want.

Quoted: How bout you look into making your own Ar reciever, I bet you spent at least 3 times as much money making your own reciever than buying one. Yeah, you're probably right when we're talking about one.  But I bet if I made thousands like the other companies do it would start evening out, no, it would more than even out.  I would be able to sell them for less than what the what the other companys do and make more $$$.

to paraphrase Mark Twain, "Never argue with idiots, they just bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience"

So what is you point? Would you like some cheese to go with that whine?
If you were loosing money I would think by now you would be out of business.
You dealers and manufactures keep posting “ oh poor me I don’t make any money in this business”
No body ever said you guys sit back and rake in the money, some of you fellow dealer brought that up.
But if the business has such a low profit margin the why are so many
People in it???
Not just here on this site, but all across the net lots of AR type stuff dealers

I will last say commits like this will kill your business.

Quoted: All you folks who think all of us “Fat Kat” AR-15 manufactures are living large on the huge profits we make off you…please go fuck yourself! You are not worthy to own the things that me and my people sweat and struggle to make, you are best suited to sub-par guns made by our enemies (communist), so go buy a $90 SKS and piss and moan about how the jobs are going away. I would like to thank you (and Walmart) for eating the soul out of our country and shitting on the idea of free men making a quality good and selling it for a fair wage.

Does not matter if I planed on buying some thing from you or not.
It’s the guy who just sits back and read the threads who might have a change of heart.
Besides I can always get a quality product from Bushmaster, they never told me in a round about way to go fuck my self.

Quoted: You know, ..........

It appears this topic struck a nerve, and rightly so. I guarantee anyone who is self employed understands exactly where you (and the other dealers/small manufacturers) are coming from. I'm sure some companies get fat off of high production AR associated parts. However, it's the smaller guys that are the ones who actually care. Those are the kind of guys I like to support, and there's a few responses in this topic that are just a big slap in the face to those types.

It's sad really. You think you got it bad, but all you're doing is trashing on the people who are doing what they love. If it wasn't a hobby for all of these guys, they quite possibly could be lining their pockets. I can assure you that they love the business for the most part, but crude comments like the ones that are being thrown around in here, are probably the most offensive things you could ever say to them.

With that said, my hat's off to pretty much every single dealer and manufacturer, specifically, the smaller manufacturers and dealers who take time out of their day, to help the whole community evolve in both information and development. If you can't appreciate what they have done, and are doing, I think you need to go back to the basics of learning appreciation and respect.

**Rant off**

Quoted: So what is you point? Would you like some cheese to go with that whine? If you were loosing money I would think by now you would be out of business. You dealers and manufactures keep posting “ oh poor me I don’t make any money in this business” No body ever said you guys sit back and rake in the money, some of you fellow dealer brought that up. But if the business has such a low profit margin the why are so many People in it??? Not just here on this site, but all across the net lots of AR type stuff dealers I will last say commits like this will kill your business. Quoted: All you folks who think all of us “Fat Kat” AR-15 manufactures are living large on the huge profits we make off you…please go fuck yourself! You are not worthy to own the things that me and my people sweat and struggle to make, you are best suited to sub-par guns made by our enemies (communist), so go buy a $90 SKS and piss and moan about how the jobs are going away. I would like to thank you (and Walmart) for eating the soul out of our country and shitting on the idea of free men making a quality good and selling it for a fair wage. Does not matter if I planed on buying some thing from you or not. It’s the guy who just sits back and read the threads who might have a change of heart. Besides I can always get a quality product from Bushmaster, they never told me in a round about way to go fuck my self.

I think I might just make my next AR a CAV-15.  I don't have any problem with the way it was put.  I think it's totally fair to let the people who actually make the stuff and KNOW what it costs chime in and let us know their thoughts.  There's nothing wrong with setting someone straight after they've made baseless, ignorant comments.  I'd bet you'd hear similar from the folks at Bushmaster if they were to freely speak their minds.  

Quoted: If you can't afford it, don't friggin' buy it! I mean, there is stuff here I would LOVE to own, but I just don't make that much money yet. I buy the best I can afford. I'm not gonna cry about it, but if I want it, I WORK FOR IT. I feel the mfrs. and dealers do the best they can to provide a decent deal and not go broke. few things I've learned: "cheap is always more expensive" "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten." hr

+1

Quoted: Does not matter if I planed on buying some thing from you or not. It’s the guy who just sits back and read the threads who might have a change of heart. Besides I can always get a quality product from Bushmaster, they never told me in a round about way to go fuck my self.

He never said it in a round about way... and neither am I. Get bent douchebag!
<ETA: Dangit, ya beat me to it Garry>

Too many folks on here have no earthly clue what goes on in the gun industry to open their mouths let alone allow any half-brained comments slip out.

Quoted: I didn't mean to be "Round About" with you, let me be more clear...Mr. UnusSupra1 (and F-Bomb), I would like you both (personaly) to go fuck yourselves! I also sincerly hope you both have a shitty day!

That big guy is a direct violation of the COC!

Not that I could give a Shit

Do you think the site staff will put you in lock down like they did to Sgtar15 for 30 days????

No I think your $$ membership will get you a free pass and only get this thread locked and trashed within the next hour.

Quoted: Quoted: Does not matter if I planed on buying some thing from you or not. It’s the guy who just sits back and read the threads who might have a change of heart. Besides I can always get a quality product from Bushmaster, they never told me in a round about way to go fuck my self. He never said it in a round about way... and neither am I. Get bent douchebag! <ETA: Dangit, ya beat me to it Garry> Too many folks on here have no earthly clue what goes on in the gun industry to open their mouths let alone allow any half-brained comments slip out.

ok,ok I know
Your just a yes man for

SinistralRifleman

good job, keep up the good work.

Quoted: I think I might just make my next AR a CAV-15.

Same here.

The shooting sports is a community, not just an industry.  Most of the folk in the community donate heavily to junior shooting clubs, building ranges, and give aways to keep the community alive and growing.  This isn't just for seeding a new generation of consumers, it is for the love of the sport.

It is like complaining about the cost of NRA dues, when those are the guys fighting to keep our sport alive and those $1 candy bars kids sell for fundraisers.  "

Why do you both ( Garryowen &SinistralRifleman) have such a thin skin?


You sound like a couple of democrats “It is not my fault”


Is it the weather out there??

Whats that I smell ?  - I think it might be Commies -

Many manufacturers have explained that there is little profit in thier lowers.  BULLSH!T.

You are no more giving your lowers away for free as I am getting them for free.

As none of the 'industry partners' has yet to post a workflow or material list for an AR lower, we are simply taking your word for it that you sell a $90 lower for $85 and make all of $5 to feed and house your family.  BULL.  You are not selling lowers at or slightly above cost because 'you love the hobby'.  You are selling parts cause you can MAKE MONEY AT IT.

Love of the hobby... YEA RIGHT.

My best estimate on a production run lower is $45-50 per lower from a manufacturer.  Less in qty.  

100% markup on a lower, NO DOUBT.

Does ANYONE ACTUALLY THINK THOSE ROLLER PINS COST $1+ TO MAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!  It costs a dollar cause its called an 'AR-15 Roller pin'.  No other reason that that.

Sad thing is that most dealers probibly don't know the true cost of a lower either... and a manufacturer is never gonna tell the true cost of a lower to the dealer and on and on and on.

If this topic gets locked, it will be because of the cry babying coming from the people who are too big of cheap ass'es to comprehend logic and simple business. You come out and say AR enthusiasts are suckers and getting ripped off by everyone, with absolutely no backing to such ignorant statements, and expect people to applaud you? Then you insult the dealers and manufacturers, and call them thin skinned. You guys have to be kidding me!

Seriously, is this some kind of joke?

Hey just looked at your stuff
I’ll pay a lot more for a rifle that doesn’t look like it is a kids toy.
Nice color did you pick that one out?






Oh wait $800.00 for a 20 inch rifle and you make how many of those parts??

I can get the same style in a Bushmaster or a Colt for the same price.

Quoted: If this topic gets locked, it will be because of the cry babying coming from the people who are too big of cheap ass'es to comprehend logic and simple business. You come out and say AR enthusiasts are suckers and getting ripped off by everyone, with absolutely no backing to such ignorant statements, and expect people to applaud you? Then you insult the dealers and manufacturers, and call them thin skinned. You guys have to be kidding me! Seriously, is this some kind of joke?

Right…….. and You think the oil companies aren't price gouging.

Oil pricing don't mean shit compared to AR pricing. Seriously, open up your own company, or listen to the facts before you spout your jibberish. All you have, are negative assumptions. You have no understanding of what has to be done in the manufacturing, legal process, machinery cost, labor, shipping, and general business organization and up keep. Until you know firsthand what goes into a firearms business, I suggest you keep your mouth shut for the sake of your credibility.

With that, I'm done as there's no point in arguing fact to people who are ignorant and biased. Also, don't take ignorant as an insult, it's just a simple fact as some of you have demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about. Assumptions are no substitute for facts. Have a nice day.

Quoted: You come out and say AR enthusiasts are suckers and getting ripped off by everyone

I never said this!

Get you facts straight before you post.

Quoted: Oil pricing don't mean shit compared to AR pricing. Seriously, open up your own company, or listen to the facts before you spout your jibberish. All you have, are negative assumptions. You have no understanding of what has to be done in the manufacturing, legal process, machinery cost, labor, shipping, and general business organization and up keep. Until you know firsthand what goes into a firearms business, I suggest you keep your mouth shut for the sake of your credibility. With that, I'm done as there's no point in arguing fact to people who are ignorant and biased. Also, don't take ignorant as an insult, it's just a simple fact as some of you have demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about. Assumptions are no substitute for facts. Have a nice day.

Thank you Mr. Greenspan, I take it your done now and off your  good job?

bye.

I know you didn't, and I never implied you did as that post was not directed at only you.

For the sake of this thread being locked on my part, I'm done. So keep hailing me and talking to yourself all you want buddy. Take care.

Quoted: Does ANYONE ACTUALLY THINK THOSE ROLLER PINS COST $1+ TO MAKE?!?!?!?!?!?!  It costs a dollar cause its called an 'AR-15 Roller pin'.  No other reason that that.

How much did it cost to package, handle, stock and then sell to your dumb ass? Manufacturing isnt the only thing. Insurance, health care, the cost of the tooling and employees, the building, the parking lot...it all costs money.

Quoted: I know you didn't, and I never implied you did as that post was not directed at only you.

Wrong again smart guy I did call two guys thin skinned.
Here.

Quoted: Why do you both ( Garryowen &SinistralRifleman) have such a thin skin? You sound like a couple of democrats “It is not my fault” Is it the weather out there??

You must have forgotten you typed this in your rush to voice your opion.

Quoted: call them thin skinned.

Please just the facts if you want to quote some one or just use the quote button next time.

Combat_Jack
Good to see you come back.
Now since this is some what of a firefight I bet I can guess what your are doing besides posting???



that crap will make you go blind!

Quoted: Quoted: I know you didn't, and I never implied you did as that post was not directed at only you. Wrong again smart guy I did call two guys thin skinned. Here. Quoted: Why do you both ( Garryowen &SinistralRifleman) have such a thin skin? You sound like a couple of democrats “It is not my fault” Is it the weather out there?? You must have forgotten you typed this in your rush to voice your opion. Quoted: call them thin skinned. Please just the facts if you want to quote some one or just use the quote button next time.

When I said "I know you didn't", I was replying to your post where you assumed I was talking about you, with the "You come out and say AR enthusiasts are suckers and getting ripped off by everyone" comment. I thought you had me quite confused there for a second until I realized you only confused yourself.

It astounds me how many of you consumers are so ready to cry "bullshit" when an industry partner or dealer says they don't make alot of money in this business.   you want the manufacturers to post their costs, but how many of you have run a business?  how would you know what manufacturer's costs really mean?  let me chime in with a cost comparison from another industry:  do you have any idea what is costs to ship a product by truck?  the industry average as of last week paid an owner/operator $1.02 per mile and most trucks do 100-150k miles per year.  that sounds like a killing, doesn't it? he must be ripping someone off, right?  by industry average, a large truck gets between 4 mpg loaded and 8 mpg empty at around $3.20 per gallon, meaning it costs the trucker about $0.53 of his $1.02 just to drive it there.  now, with his remaining $0.49 per mile, he has to pay around $1000 per month for insurance, around $1500 per month for his truck and trailer payment, and he has to remember to save enough for his IFTA mileage-based fuel tax and heavy-use road tax, by industry average around $33,000 per year (may be an older, lower number), and he still has to pay income tax on what's left.  does that sound like alot of money now?  and this is a critical, "the world stops without it" industry, not recreational firearms for the average consumer.  i don't see where any of you ignorant jackasses has the right to call "bullshit" on any business owner, whether a manufacturer or a middleman.  i haven't met one yet who was getting rich without exclusive military contracts (spelled C-O-L-T-S )

Well I am going to make my own lowers.
I thing I got every thing
Dremel tool
Bits
Forged lower block

I thing I can make some thing as good if not better then Olympic Arms.



total over head as of  now
Dremel I think $75.00 but is is a craftsman!
Bits came with Dremel
Lower $20.00 at a gun show.

Were off......

Quoted: Well I am going to make my own lowers. I thing I got every thing Dremel tool Bits Forged lower block I thing I can make some thing as good if not better then Olympic Arms. www.4-crm-trainers.com/pix/myshop.JPG total over head as of  now Dremel I think $75.00 but is is a craftsman! Bits came with Dremel Lower $20.00 at a gun show.

Please, when you get done, show us how it turns out in detail. Then, maybe you can sell them for $50 each seeing as it's going to be so easy. In fact, I'll give you a bit of advice, and suggest taking a trip to the Build one yourself topic to get specific directions. Please, please let us know how well it turns out and how easy it was.

ETA: Seriously, that topic should give you a better idea of what has to be done for machine work and such. It's not as easy as you think.

Ok let me try to answer your question

Quoted: Do you secretly desire a pink rifle?  Or does the fact that one exists threaten your sense of manliness? No, I do not at this time, but if I was to going to san fran I might. But I most likley just go buy a can of spray paint. $800.00 is MSRP...hardly anyone sells at MSRP.  MSRP on a 20" Bushmaster rifle is $1025 if you look at their site. Right and only fools buy at MSRP so I could get a Colt or Bushmaster for even less then the $800.00 your askingand I have! How many parts does any Rifle company make in house themselves?....I know I can answer that question better than you can. So, thentell me? Oh but that would blow your "I don't make any thing excuse". My guess just the lower and upper if that. And you sound like a socialist that feels the "capitalist pigs" are making too much money. It's a free contry you have a righ to your opinion Yes the heat does cook off our brain cells out here...but I'm sure the long term effects are much less severe than the inbreeding found in some people's family trees, or in your case does it look more like a wreath? I hear tell that is why Az people love the Cactus. It reminds them so much of their family tree, only 1 or may be 2  branches.

Quoted: Please, when you get done, show us how it turns out in detail. Then, maybe you can sell them for $50 each seeing as it's going to be so easy. In fact, I'll give you a bit of advice, and suggest taking a trip to the Build one yourself topic to get specific directions. Please, please let us know how well it turns out and how easy it was. ETA: Seriously, that topic should give you a better idea of what has to be done for machine work and such. It's not as easy as you think.

Are you still here?
Don't you have some homework or some thing?

Go tell your mom and Dad you want some thing and it only cost $150.00 plus shipping and I sell it to you.

This thread is way out of hand.  We need a Mod to come clean this mess up.

Quoted: This thread is way out of hand.  We need a Mod to come clean this mess up.

I am sure you have sent a few IM all ready

You should take the new name of Johnny _ on_the_spot

Or NARC might be open.

Quoted: Good humor . . . I wish it was that simple. I don't know exact costs at a manufacturing level for the lower, but if you can actually make one; the first one will cost you $20,020 at a minimum.  General liability insurance for firearms manufacturers starts at over $20,000 per year . .  .and that is before you even make a single product.

May be if you make your own.
But all the smart companies out source to.

places like
Cerro
www.cerrofabricated.com/products_firearm.htm

and others

It doesn't matter if he told or not, there's no way a mod is going to miss this BS. Sorry, but you'll have to find somewhere else to bad mouth the dealers and manufacturers.

ETA: And I'm hoping on your part, that's another site.

Quoted: Quoted: Good humor . . . I wish it was that simple. I don't know exact costs at a manufacturing level for the lower, but if you can actually make one; the first one will cost you $20,020 at a minimum.  General liability insurance for firearms manufacturers starts at over $20,000 per year . .  .and that is before you even make a single product. May be if you make your own. But all the smart companies out source to. places like Cerro www.cerrofabricated.com/products_firearm.htm and others

wait, i must be missing something here, i thought you wanted to make your own because you objected to the manufacturers outsourcing and then charging you for for things they didn't "make".  oh wait, that's right, you pretty much summed up your position with this statement:

Over head cost are your problem, not mine. I just want the shit for free or as close as I can get to that. That is the true american way BTW: Walmart never tryed to explain their costs?

so, as far as i can tell, there is no arguing with your bulletproof logic, and not much point in anyone responding to anything further that you say.

Quoted: Quoted: Well I am going to make my own lowers. I thing I got every thing Dremel tool Bits Forged lower block I thing I can make some thing as good if not better then Olympic Arms. www.4-crm-trainers.com/pix/myshop.JPG total over head as of  now Dremel I think $75.00 but is is a craftsman! Bits came with Dremel Lower $20.00 at a gun show. Good humor . . . I wish it was that simple. I don't know exact costs at a manufacturing level for the lower, but if you can actually make one; the first one will cost you $20,020 at a minimum.  General liability insurance for firearms manufacturers starts at over $20,000 per year . .  .and that is before you even make a single product.

How much do you think you will spend on the bits that you burn up on that dremel?  How much electricity will you use?  Better yet, how many lowers do you think your going to go through in your attempt to make the THREADS for the buffer tube...