Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? - Page 4

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? (Page 4 of 5)

Posted: 8/23/2007 1:20:36 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

I say...Can I get a witness!!!

Great report, optionstrader. Good read. I guess that shows why Masaad Ayoob likes 4B and that you can't believe everything you hear.

Guys.....I know it hurts but.....y'all have anything to say?

What that data shows is that 4B is the minimum tactically acceptable load. I have been contending that it is marginal, which is basically a slightly less rosy assessment then this new data.

The information in this study would still lead me to choose a 00 load over 4B, as I'm not one for the minimum tactically acceptable load. You'll also note that it discusses nothing about penetration concerns, which was optionstrader's supposed reason for choosing 4B in the first place. In fact, it still doesn't support his previous conclusions.

In addition, this is data, as far as I can tell, from a single gelatin test of one 4B load. This is considerably less comprehensive then any of the studies we have been citing thus far.

And even after all that, I'd still choose an AR over a shotgun.

Posted: 8/23/2007 1:54:14 AM EDT

[#2]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
headbang.gif I say...Can I get a witness!!!

Great report, optionstrader. Good read. I guess that shows why Masaad Ayoob likes 4B and that you can't believe everything you hear.

Guys.....I know it hurts but.....y'all have anything to say?hat
The information in this study would still lead me to choose a 00 load over 4B, as I'm not one for the minimum tactically acceptable load. You'll also note that it discusses nothing about penetration concerns, which was optionstrader's supposed reason for choosing 4B in the first place. In fact, it still doesn't support his previous conclusions.

In addition, this is data, as far as I can tell, from a single gelatin test of one 4B load. This is considerably less comprehensive then any of the studies we have been citing thus far.

And even after all that, I'd still choose an AR over a shotgun.

And that's fine, Phoebus.....I still respect your opinion.....I guess none of us will lose any sleep at night.

Posted: 8/23/2007 2:15:49 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

I say...Can I get a witness!!!

Great report, optionstrader. Good read. I guess that shows why Masaad Ayoob likes 4B and that you can't believe everything you hear.

Guys.....I know it hurts but.....y'all have anything to say?

What that data shows is that 4B is the minimum tactically acceptable load. I have been contending that it is marginal, which is basically a slightly less rosy assessment then this new data.

The information in this study would still lead me to choose a 00 load over 4B, as I'm not one for the minimum tactically acceptable load. You'll also note that it discusses nothing about penetration concerns, which was optionstrader's supposed reason for choosing 4B in the first place. In fact, it still doesn't support his previous conclusions.

In addition, this is data, as far as I can tell, from a single gelatin test of one 4B load. This is considerably less comprehensive then any of the studies we have been citing thus far.

And even after all that, I'd still choose an AR over a shotgun.

And that's fine, Phoebus.....I still respect your opinion.....I guess none of us will lose any sleep at night.

Apparently you and I are, at least if you're in the US right now, becuase it's laaaaate

Posted: 8/23/2007 3:25:32 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
M4builder, In TX we have no duty to retreat and we would probably get in more trouble using an AR than 4B. Seriously.

In New York you are obligated to retreat, and using an AR and 'cop killer' ammo would defintely be an issue exploited by the prosecution.

You should consider moving to the USA

Well that is somethimg we can both agree on.

I hate NY, and will be leaving this state at first chance. For now, my family and job are here, and so here I am.

Posted: 8/23/2007 3:31:46 AM EDT

[#5]

Suppressed 12.5 with whatever ammo I have left over at the end of the day:

Posted: 8/23/2007 3:39:06 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

What that data shows is that 4B is the minimum tactically acceptable load. I have been contending that it is marginal, which is basically a slightly less rosy assessment then this new data.

Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)

"If all pellets strike the intended target (likely when utilized at closer range) #4 buckshot offers several times the effective wound channel creation capabilities over both #1 and 00 buck."

The original statement of 'fact' was that #4 buck did not meet the minimum requirement of 12" of penetration. This study proves that statement to be false, based on newer data and current ammunition.
It also shows that at closer ranges, it will be more effective than #1 or 00. How you can read those facts as being marginal I am not sure.

In addition, this is data, as far as I can tell, from a single gelatin test of one 4B load. This is considerably less comprehensive then any of the studies we have been citing thus far.

The word average tells us that there were multiple tests done. If you read the rest of the site, you will see they are quite thorough in their tests and documentation.

Edited message to add the following:

As quoted from the above study
"tacticalworks.ca gelatin testing has all been done in accordance with calibration and correction standards established by both Dr. Fackler and Mr. MacPherson."

Posted: 8/23/2007 5:05:49 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
You'll also note that it discusses nothing about penetration concerns, which was optionstrader's supposed reason for choosing 4B in the first place. In fact, it still doesn't support his previous conclusions.

And even after all that, I'd still choose an AR over a shotgun.

Lets look at some facts regarding wall penetration.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

According to this study, it showed that #1 and #4 were roughly on par, with 00B penetrating substantially more. The rifle and pistol round penetrated substantially more than any of the shotgun rounds, excluding the slug. Based on the study I posted regarding gelatin testing, I would agree that #1 and #4 are both ideal home defense shotgun rounds, with #1 having slightly more stopping power and slightly more penetration of wall material. The laws of physics do come into play here, and the smaller pellets are going to penetrate slightly less in both materials. Perhaps I will load my shotgun with the first 3 round as #4 and the next 3 as #1. The gelatin test also identified the #4 as having better wounding characteristics at closer ranges, which appeals to me in my situation.

In regards to an AR15 shooting 5.56:

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm
2. Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
I really liked this statment:

It turned out that the 5.56 deviated so much from its course after the first wall, that it was almost impossible to hit the other walls to test penetration.

I guess that kinda debunks the myth that you can simply rely on shot placement to not hit friendlies on the other side of a wall. The bullet can and will deflect at extreme and unpredictable angles.

This is also an interesting conclusion.

1. Contrary to what we have been told, XM-193 does not seem to "fragment" when shot into drywall walls. After we were through for the day, we even shot several more rounds of XM-193 into the walls to see if we could get one to fragment. They did not.

It is clear that they were tumbling and deviating from the flight path, but they were still penetrating the walls.

Posted: 8/23/2007 5:17:16 AM EDT

[#8]

I am not sure that there is anything else to say here guys. I think I have pretty clearly shown, using facts, that modern #4 buckshot loads are an ideal home defense round. Just the fact that it is even considered as a potential tactical round, ie: used by law enforcement, tells me that it is an effective manstopper, and the gelatin tests for current production ammo back that up.

I have also shown conclusively, using facts, not conjecture, that #4 buckshot will penetrate less than 00B and 5.56 rounds in typical home construction materials.

To be honest with you, I believe you owe the readers of the ammunition forum an apology for propagating information as 'fact', when in reality it was outdated and not very well researched. That kind of thing can get people killed.

Posted: 8/23/2007 5:18:59 AM EDT

[#9]

under the mattress is a Kimber TLE/RLE II with light, and a ten rd CMC power mag with FMJ (its .45, i don't need no JHPs)

in a mini vault in the coat closet is a Sig 229 9mm with 15rds of Fiocchi 147 JHP (9mm needs JHP)

Posted: 8/23/2007 6:30:57 AM EDT

[#10]

Since I have two kids leaving loaded guns in different places is not an option for me. The only thing kept loaded in the house is my Sig P228 loaded with 124 grain +P Speer Gold Dots. I would prefer to confront an intruder with my Stag 16" AR, but I can't leave that loaded with two little boys running around.

Posted: 8/23/2007 6:44:17 AM EDT

[#11]

One clarification to add on the comparison of 5.56 and shotgun loads, which has nothing to do with my original post, but is important. Even though 5.56 may penetrate more sheetrock, the lighter weight bullets have been shown to have less lethality on the other side of the wall due to the fact that, as the ammo oracle states "it is true because the low mass of the bullet sheds velocity quickly". However, as the weight of the 5.56 round goes up, and the weight of the shotgun BB goes down, this statement would be less true.

So in other words, M193 55gr bullet will have less lethality after traveling through construction materials than 00 buckshot, but when comparing a 5.56 75 gr round with a #4 buckshot thats not necessarily the case. I dont know what the exact numbers are for the latter comparison because I was not able to find any conclusive studies. If anyone has more info on that I would be intersted to learn.

Posted: 8/23/2007 6:45:25 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
I am not sure that there is anything else to say here guys. I think I have pretty clearly shown, using facts, that modern #4 buckshot loads are an ideal home defense round. Just the fact that it is even considered as a potential tactical round, ie: used by law enforcement, tells me that it is an effective manstopper, and the gelatin tests for current production ammo back that up.

I have also shown conclusively, using facts, not conjecture, that #4 buckshot will penetrate less than 00B and 5.56 rounds in typical home construction materials.

To be honest with you, I believe you owe the readers of the ammunition forum an apology for propagating information as 'fact', when in reality it was outdated and not very well researched. That kind of thing can get people killed.

Nothing of the sort. What you don't take into consideration is the wounding potential of 5.56 ammo after it has penetrated wallboard. You're not as smart as you think you are.

[ETA] The data from tacticalshotgun.ca does indicate that #4 penetrates sufficiently to meet the minimum penetration standard. I've calculated the surface area of Winchester #1 and #4 buckshot, and the #4 does indeed have a larger total surface area. I will check this out some more.

Posted: 8/23/2007 6:48:40 AM EDT

[#13]

A Foogaus on the front porch and a command detonated Claymore in the foyer.

(And I sleep like a baby. In kevlar mind you, but like a baby)

Bear

*** "No Officer, I don't know how that intruding scumbag's nutts got blown across the street to my neighbor's front yard".

Posted: 8/23/2007 6:57:48 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Nothing of the sort. What you don't take into consideration is the wounding potential of 5.56 ammo after it has penetrated wallboard. You're not as smart as you think you are.

Actually, I did. Please see my post directly above yours.

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:11:18 AM EDT

[#15]

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:27:05 AM EDT

[#16]

mossberg 410 loadad with buckshot a foot away from pillow.
(it's the onyl gun I own that a) I've fired and trust b) that is suitable for an apartment - that is until I give my 870 tactical its first workout. sme oges for my cavarms 45 AR)

eTA: and yeah the light/laser costs more than teh shotty and all teh ammo I have for it. but it realyl does make it tactikool

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:29:26 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
mossberg 410 loadad with buckshot a foot away from pillow.
(it's the onyl gun I own that a) I've fired and trust b) that is suitable for an apartment - that is until I give my 870 tactical its first workout. sme oges for my cavarms 45 AR)

i11.tinypic.com/61vql8p.jpg

eTA: and yeah the light/laser costs more than teh shotty and all teh ammo I have for it. but it realyl does make it tactikool

Careful, kid, you're gonna put somebody's eye out with that thing!

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:31:31 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
The original statement of 'fact' was that #4 buck did not meet the minimum requirement of 12" of penetration. This study proves that statement to be false, based on newer data and current ammunition.

I owe you one.

With a current study on the new ammo, it looks like #4 will do the job

At the tested range.

For in-house use that Federal loads looks like it would work nicely.

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:37:02 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nothing of the sort. What you don't take into consideration is the wounding potential of 5.56 ammo after it has penetrated wallboard. You're not as smart as you think you are.

Actually, I did. Please see my post directly above yours.

From: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001271#000000
DrJSW:
"Of note: when it comes to overpenetration of house walls, no shotgun load is "safe". DocGKR wrote an article in Police Marksman in the last century demonstrating that soft-nosed .223 bullets are less prone to overpenetration through walls than are most shotgun loads (and most pistol loads). If you're going to use a shotgun for home defense, you'll do well to remember the Second Law: be sure of your target and what's beyond it. It's your home: you have time to think about where you want to engage a threat so you can set up "safe" lanes of fire that are less likely to cause collateral damage."

I have also cited several more quotes in regards to overpenetration on the last page which you ignored.

On the other hand - as I stated earlier - I will dig more on the #1 vs. #4 buck issue. That's got my curiosity piqued.

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:38:55 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The original statement of 'fact' was that #4 buck did not meet the minimum requirement of 12" of penetration. This study proves that statement to be false, based on newer data and current ammunition.

I owe you one.

With a current study on the new ammo, it looks like #4 will do the job

At the tested range.

For in-house use that Federal loads looks like it would work nicely.

Thank you Forest. I really appreciate that.
This has been a learning experience for me, and have taken alot out of this thread, as painful as it has been. I hope everyone has learned from it, because thats all that matters.

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:41:27 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The original statement of 'fact' was that #4 buck did not meet the minimum requirement of 12" of penetration. This study proves that statement to be false, based on newer data and current ammunition.

I owe you one.

With a current study on the new ammo, it looks like #4 will do the job

At the tested range.

For in-house use that Federal loads looks like it would work nicely.

Thank you Forest. I really appreciate that.
This has been a learning experience for me, and have taken alot out of this thread, as painful as it has been. I hope everyone has learned from it, because thats all that matters.

I also concur. The important thing to note is to use ONLY loads which have been tested in calibrated gelatin.

Posted: 8/23/2007 7:50:21 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
From: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001271#000000
DrJSW:
"Of note: when it comes to overpenetration of house walls, no shotgun load is "safe". DocGKR wrote an article in Police Marksman in the last century demonstrating that soft-nosed .223 bullets are less prone to overpenetration through walls than are most shotgun loads (and most pistol loads). If you're going to use a shotgun for home defense, you'll do well to remember the Second Law: be sure of your target and what's beyond it. It's your home: you have time to think about where you want to engage a threat so you can set up "safe" lanes of fire that are less likely to cause collateral damage."

I have also cited several more quotes in regards to overpenetration on the last page which you ignored.

On the other hand - as I stated earlier - I will dig more on the #1 vs. #4 buck issue. That's got my curiosity piqued.

Lets put this to bed right now. Of course I agree that knowing whats beyond your target to the best of your ability is important. What my point to you is, no matter how well you think you know where your bullets are going to end up, its impossible to know for sure, and some of the bullets are very likely to strike a wall where loved ones may be hiding behind. You just don't know. That is where over penetration and ammo selection come in to play. This fact cannot be ignored. Surely you understand that.

Conclusion: both ammo selection and shot placement will play a role in keeping loved ones from potentially getting hurt.

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:02:08 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
mossberg 410 loadad with buckshot a foot away from pillow.
(it's the onyl gun I own that a) I've fired and trust b) that is suitable for an apartment - that is until I give my 870 tactical its first workout. sme oges for my cavarms 45 AR)

i11.tinypic.com/61vql8p.jpg

eTA: and yeah the light/laser costs more than teh shotty and all teh ammo I have for it. but it realyl does make it tactikool

Careful, kid, you're gonna put somebody's eye out with that thing!

I tell visitors who fondle it that I'm really relying ont he laser and the 'cha-CHINK' more than the roudn itself! A side benefit is that shooting trap with one hand is just too much fun....

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:04:17 AM EDT

[#24]

If you're going to use a shotgun for home defense, you'll do well to remember the Second Law: be sure of your target and what's beyond it..

to which I reply.....

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:07:23 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
.. What my point to you is, no matter how well you think you know where your bullets are going to end up, its impossible to know for sure,.

My planning make an assumption that my daughter can occupy a certain volume (basically anything below 3' for the first 8' of the room - then up to 5' after that (think her standing on her bed). Similarly for my son in his room (just taller).

Knowing they could be anywhere in this space I have planned the shots so the bullet will not enter this volume should a miss occur. To take such a shot involves dropping to a knee. HTH,

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:17:32 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
.. What my point to you is, no matter how well you think you know where your bullets are going to end up, its impossible to know for sure,.

My planning make an assumption that my daughter can occupy a certain volume (basically anything below 3' for the first 8' of the room - then up to 5' after that (think her standing on her bed). Similarly for my son in his room (just taller).

Knowing they could be anywhere in this space I have planned the shots so the bullet will not enter this volume should a miss occur. To take such a shot involves dropping to a knee. HTH,

What are your thoughts on the bullet deflection issue noted on www.theboxotruth.com?
They were getting these deflection issues with M193. Perhaps the heavier 75gr OTM would not have this deflection issue, which would seem to make sense, but without testing it you would not know for sure.

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:24:26 AM EDT

[#27]

Glass is worst for deflection and the deflection with auto glass is pretty minimal on 75gr OTM.

What I have seen is tumbling (Keyholing) after striking a few barriers. IMHO this is a GOOD thing. As it greatly increases the drag (as it exits the roof of my house in such a shot) and it minimizes the penetration potential.

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:26:43 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Glass is worst for deflection and the deflection with auto glass is pretty minimal on 75gr OTM.

What I have seen is tumbling (Keyholing) after striking a few barriers. IMHO this is a GOOD thing. As it greatly increases the drag (as it exits the roof of my house in such a shot) and it minimizes the penetration potential.

I guess that would be one more reason to choose the 75gr OTM over M193, then wouldnt it?

Posted: 8/23/2007 8:27:36 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Glass is worst for deflection and the deflection with auto glass is pretty minimal on 75gr OTM.

What I have seen is tumbling (Keyholing) after striking a few barriers. IMHO this is a GOOD thing. As it greatly increases the drag (as it exits the roof of my house in such a shot) and it minimizes the penetration potential.

I guess that would be one more reason to choose the 75gr OTM over M193, then wouldnt it?

Yes. M193 was good for its time, but the newer heavy OTMs are plain out better.

Posted: 8/23/2007 11:13:01 AM EDT

[#30]

For doctor308

Posted: 8/23/2007 10:57:02 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Well, then answer me this: Your shotgun is loaded with #4 buck, the bad guy is in front of your kid's bedroom. Do you shoot?

If he needs shooting, yes. But i'll take a low knee first so the trajectory of any projectiles that miss or exit the BG do so at an angle that sends those projectiles into the tops of the walls or ceiling. You all practise that, right?

Posted: 8/23/2007 11:02:20 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I am not sure that there is anything else to say here guys. I think I have pretty clearly shown, using facts, that modern #4 buckshot loads are an ideal home defense round.

My primary objection the 4B is it often shoots larger patterns than the best OO buck loads. Which increases the chance for strays. Remember, the maximum range for a shotgun is whatever range your given ammo will put every single pellet in the bad guys upper torso. Every stray pellet may as well have your checkbook attached to it.

In my own testing with my own shotguns, because face it, nobody elese shotguns matter, i have never found a 4B load that pattern particularly well. With Hornady TAP or Federal flight control 00Buck i get patterns i can cover with my hand at 25M. Last time i tested 4B the patterns were over 30" at 25M.

Posted: 8/23/2007 11:04:51 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
.. What my point to you is, no matter how well you think you know where your bullets are going to end up, its impossible to know for sure,.

My planning make an assumption that my daughter can occupy a certain volume (basically anything below 3' for the first 8' of the room - then up to 5' after that (think her standing on her bed). Similarly for my son in his room (just taller).

Knowing they could be anywhere in this space I have planned the shots so the bullet will not enter this volume should a miss occur. To take such a shot involves dropping to a knee. HTH,

I see you beat me to it. This is something hounded into use in active shooter training. You have to work the angles so strays and pass throughs exit above the heads of bystanders. Sadely few people train for those shots.

Posted: 8/23/2007 11:41:32 PM EDT

[#34]

Springfield 1911 and a couple aircraft carriers. No bullshit.

Posted: 8/23/2007 11:49:22 PM EDT

[#35]

Your House Gun and what is it loaded with?

155gr AMAX

Posted: 8/24/2007 5:59:33 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My go to pistol is almost a 1911.

Doc, thanks for the close up! My ol' eyes and a quick look fooled me.

So how do you like your *starter kit*

I like the BHP alot.
My only complaint is that custom parts are a pain to find and the trigger could be better.
Hemi-cuda keeps telling me there is this pistol that doesn't have those problems.

The other HD guns I mentioned...
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/myfirearms/hmmstufff026.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/myfirearms/2home001.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/homedefense001.jpg

Your defending your house with a museum?

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:39:33 AM EDT

[#37]

Your House Gun and what is it loaded with?

HK USPc .4o w/ Hornady 180 gr. TAP-FPD.

Posted: 8/24/2007 8:22:24 AM EDT

[#38]

Posted: 8/24/2007 1:34:31 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
My primary objection the 4B is it often shoots larger patterns than the best OO buck loads. Which increases the chance for strays. Remember, the maximum range for a shotgun is whatever range your given ammo will put every single pellet in the bad guys upper torso. Every stray pellet may as well have your checkbook attached to it.

I completely agree with this statment.

In my own testing with my own shotguns, because face it, nobody elese shotguns matter, i have never found a 4B load that pattern particularly well. With Hornady TAP or Federal flight control 00Buck i get patterns i can cover with my hand at 25M. Last time i tested 4B the patterns were over 30" at 25M.

My range requirements are definitely alot shorter than 25 meters. The longest shot I would have to reasonably take in my house would be about 25 feet, which is what I have tested my patterns at.

Whats funny is that, I only recently went to loading all #4B in my house gun. In the past I would load it with a combination, starting with 2 rounds of #4B, 2 rounds of #1B, and the last 2 with 00B. After doing some range testing and research, I decided to go with all #4 based on the way it was patterning, and the fact that it would simplify things for my wife. While combining various loads makes for more options, it can also be alot to try and think about in a real life or death situation. You know, the keep it simple stupid thing.

Anyway, as a result of this thread, I may go back to loading two types, first 3 rounds of #4, last three rounds of #1. The #1 should give me a better pattern and penetration at longer ranges, which if used right could give me an advantage.

Posted: 8/24/2007 1:54:32 PM EDT

[#40]

I also wanted to address the data provided by http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html shows the following data:

Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)
Block #1 Calibration BB Velocity: 608 fps
Block #1 Calibration BB Penetration: 12.4 cm

The calibration standard is 590fps (+/- 15fps) with a penetration depth of 8.5cm (+/- 1.0 cm). The penetration of the calibration BB to 12.4cm skews the average penetration depth to the + side (thanks to DocGKR for pointing out my oversight).

I'll see if Duncan McPherson's book has a correction factor based on the actual calibration BB velocity, from which the standardized penetration depth can be extrapolated.

Posted: 8/24/2007 2:05:05 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My go to pistol is almost a 1911.

Doc, thanks for the close up! My ol' eyes and a quick look fooled me.

So how do you like your *starter kit*

I like the BHP alot.
My only complaint is that custom parts are a pain to find and the trigger could be better.
Hemi-cuda keeps telling me there is this pistol that doesn't have those problems.

The other HD guns I mentioned...
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/myfirearms/hmmstufff026.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/myfirearms/2home001.jpg
i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/homedefense001.jpg

Your defending your house with a museum?

*Shakes Fist Angrily*
No...these are my museum pieces!

In all seriousness, I have a Glock 22 or 35 (haven't decided which yet) and an AR15 SBR in the works.
Loving Retro ARs, I am going to have to sacrifice a bit of historical accuracy on the SBR.
I am not comfortable using 55 grain rounds out of an 11" so I will have to forego a 1/12 twist barrel for a 1/7 so I can use the nice heavy loads.

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:14:18 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
I also wanted to address the data provided by http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html shows the following data:

Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)
Block #1 Calibration BB Velocity: 608 fps
Block #1 Calibration BB Penetration: 12.4 cm

The calibration standard is 590fps (+/- 15fps) with a penetration depth of 8.5cm (+/- 1.0 cm). The penetration of the calibration BB to 12.4cm skews the average penetration depth to the + side (thanks to DocGKR for pointing out my oversight).

I'll see if Duncan McPherson's book has a correction factor based on the actual calibration BB velocity, from which the standardized penetration depth can be extrapolated.

This is a quote from tacticalshotgun.com
www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

"When Dr. Martin Fackler of the Letterman Army Institute of Research developed what are now the standardized gelatin testing protocols it was with the intent of being able to better simulate gunshot wounds in the human animal. The primary objective of this ballistic testing methodology created by Dr. Fackler was a standard of reference for use in the comparison and evaluation of varied surgical corrections and treatments.

The preparation of ordinance gelatin is typically held to a very specific procedure. Once the gelatin has been prepared, it is then calibrated immediately before use to demonstrate that it falls within a relatively narrow window of physical properties designed for block to block consistency. This calibration process is important for wound ballistic researchers as it sets a standard by which observations from one gelatin block can be meaningfully compared to those observed in another block. The calibration standard is typically 8.5cm of penetration by a steel BB with an initial velocity of 590fps.

If the penetration of the steel BB at 590fps does not meet the calibration standard, all is not lost though as excellent data collected by Duncan MacPherson allows correlation and correction provided the velocity and mass of the BB fall within the calibration protocol. tacticalworks.ca gelatin testing has all been done in accordance with calibration and correction standards established by both Dr. Fackler and Mr. MacPherson. "

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:32:50 PM EDT

[#43]

i have some 7.5 bird shot in my 870HD. I use this to reduce penetration through walls since we have a 11month old next to our room. And for everyone that will flame the bird shot, if someone is shot 2-3 times with it, or even once, homey will be down.

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:37:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
#1 buck - the recommended SD load for shotguns - may only be slightly better than #4, but when you have a choice, why not use the BEST load available?

The best load available according to who's criteria? You are judging based on your criteria, which you appear to believe is the only 'correct' one. It would appear over penetration is lower on your criteria scale than mine. Do you live with children in the house? I myself have 3 children that all live in seperate bedrooms. If I ever truly had to defend my family, I would not have the luxury to stop and work out my bullet trajectory before sqeezing the trigger. This means I would be relying completely on my selection of ammo to not go thru the wall and kill one of my kids. Are you in the same situation?

Based on the above facts, I am willing to sacrifice a little power to hopefully decrease the chances of not injuring or killing my own family members. Either way, nothing is guarenteed is it. It is possible that I could under pentrate with 00B and over penetrate with 4B. Based on my experience I feel confident 4B would do the job, if not on the first round, then definitely on the second. I don't need an 'expert' to make this decision for me. As I originally stated, based on my criteria, 4B is a good compromise.

Its funny how such a simple statement can bring out so much ire in some people. Some of you guys feel your viewpoint is an absolute truth, and one that works in all situations. I would contend that your viewpoint is only truly valid for you, not the entire population.

Edited to fix quotes.

I have hunted a lot of birds and shooting ducks at 40-50 yards with #4's is doable, at 10 yards or inside house distances an intruder shot with #4's would be DRT. The whole thing about not enough penetration confuses me.One punch in the face from Mike Tyson, Chuck Liddell or Rampage Jackson, how much penetration is that ? #8 shot at 10 yards would stop anyone IMO.

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:38:11 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
i have some 7.5 bird shot in my 870HD. I use this to reduce penetration through walls since we have a 11month old next to our room. And for everyone that will flame the bird shot, if someone is shot 2-3 times with it, or even once, homey will be down.

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:40:59 PM EDT

[#46]

Bedside pistol: G-21 Speer 230 grain gold dot
Bedside Carbine: 75 grain TAP
Office pistol .40 cal XD 185(maybe165) speer gold dots
Closet carbine: 75 grain TAP
Closet shotty: mananged 00 buck
Wifes bedside pistol: 9mm speer dots 124 grain?(not sure)

Posted: 8/24/2007 7:56:31 PM EDT

[#47]

P220 w/Streamlight M6X - Fed 165gr Hydra-Shok JHP

18" 6-shot 870 Express Magnum - Fed 2 3/4" 00 Buck

Custom 16" Colt Match HBAR w/Aimpoint M2 and Streamlight M3X - LC M193

Posted: 8/24/2007 8:31:35 PM EDT

[#48]

Kimber_45, glorifiedG: Wishful thinking will not stop a determined attacker, nor should you count on being able to shoot someone multiple times with a shotgun and expect him to stand still so you can get off the perfect shot.

Please read this link for background.

Posted: 8/24/2007 8:35:05 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
i have some 7.5 bird shot in my 870HD. I use this to reduce penetration through walls since we have a 11month old next to our room. And for everyone that will flame the bird shot, if someone is shot 2-3 times with it, or even once, homey will be down.

1) if someone has any sort of drug in there system, I can guarantee you will not stop then expendiently with bird shot
2) you acknowledge that it may (and probably will) take multiple hits to bring someone to a stop (if you even can). That right there is enough of a reason to re-evaluate your choice.

Using 4B is at least somewhat effective, and has some justification as a choice...there is no excuse for birdshot.

If you're worried about penetration, don't fire when your baby is behind the bad guy...you can decide when to shoot, but when you do, you want to know he's going down.

Posted: 8/24/2007 8:54:14 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I also wanted to address the data provided by http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html shows the following data:

Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)
Block #1 Calibration BB Velocity: 608 fps
Block #1 Calibration BB Penetration: 12.4 cm

The calibration standard is 590fps (+/- 15fps) with a penetration depth of 8.5cm (+/- 1.0 cm). The penetration of the calibration BB to 12.4cm skews the average penetration depth to the + side (thanks to DocGKR for pointing out my oversight).

I'll see if Duncan McPherson's book has a correction factor based on the actual calibration BB velocity, from which the standardized penetration depth can be extrapolated.

This is a quote from tacticalshotgun.com
www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

"When Dr. Martin Fackler of the Letterman Army Institute of Research developed what are now the standardized gelatin testing protocols it was with the intent of being able to better simulate gunshot wounds in the human animal. The primary objective of this ballistic testing methodology created by Dr. Fackler was a standard of reference for use in the comparison and evaluation of varied surgical corrections and treatments.

The preparation of ordinance gelatin is typically held to a very specific procedure. Once the gelatin has been prepared, it is then calibrated immediately before use to demonstrate that it falls within a relatively narrow window of physical properties designed for block to block consistency. This calibration process is important for wound ballistic researchers as it sets a standard by which observations from one gelatin block can be meaningfully compared to those observed in another block. The calibration standard is typically 8.5cm of penetration by a steel BB with an initial velocity of 590fps.

If the penetration of the steel BB at 590fps does not meet the calibration standard, all is not lost though as excellent data collected by Duncan MacPherson allows correlation and correction provided the velocity and mass of the BB fall within the calibration protocol. tacticalworks.ca gelatin testing has all been done in accordance with calibration and correction standards established by both Dr. Fackler and Mr. MacPherson. "

I finally found the relevant data.

First of all, the impact velocity of the BB exceeds 590fps. The correction factor to normalize the BB penetration depth to 590fps is approximately 0.4cm, so that makes an even 12cm @590fps.

Next is the calculation to adjust the penetration depth. This is given by the following equation:

dX = (XBB - 8.5) * a2 * a3 * (W/d^2)

where dx is the adjustment to the original penetration depth, W is the weight of the BB in grains (5.25 for a typical BB), and d is the diameter in mm (0.177" * 25.4mm/").

a2 is a dimensionless parameter determined in a lookup table which corresponds to the calibration BB's depth of 12cm as 0.345

a3 is dependent on the shape of the bullet. This value for a sphere is 15.6 (by comparison, a JHP has a factor of 8.4 for a3)

Plugging in all the values, you get:

dX = (12 - 8.5) * 0.345 * 15.6 * ( 5.25 / (0.177" * 25.4)^2 )

or dX = 4.9"

So the adjustment factor of 4.9" brings the average penetration depth of the #4 buck loads to just over NINE AND A HALF inches in properly calibrated gelatin - a far cry from the 14.5" advertised.

[Edited to add] The 3" magnum #4 Buck load obviously makes the proper penetration depth - I don't even have to go through the math on that one, since the calibration BB is close to spec in the first place and the 15.5" penetration depth will not have to be adjusted much. It's just that in that case, you won't be buying yourself much in the way - if any - protection from overpenetration if that's your primary concern.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? (Page 4 of 5)

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