THANK YOU Bill! We are all indebted by your service. now about that SIG 556 GROUP BUY... heh heh heh

I'm curiouis about something? Aren't the things that CA is doing, unconstitutional? And if so, why hasn't anyone done something about it. It' like a damn communist STATE.

Quoted: I'm curiouis about something? Aren't the things that CA is doing, unconstitutional? And if so, why hasn't anyone done something about it. It' like a damn communist STATE.

It should be, but the current CA constitution doesn't guarnatee us the right to own a firearm.

A state's constitution overides THE CONSTITUTION?

Quoted: A state's constitution overides THE CONSTITUTION?

It does in CA !!!

Let's keep the train rolling, I hope that more lowers continue to enter the state for a while.  I know that talking with some of the dealers out here the perception is bad from an FFL standpoint, and I hope that these businesses that are doing the transfers get a LOT of business from folks in the future in response to them having the guts to take this issue on.

I think that Bill's take on the situation re: DOJ's intent was spot on.  After all, based upon the numbers of transfers, it's no wonder they're trying to influence things.  I'm very unhappy to see it being done in such a manner, but what can you do?

Oh yeah, change the laws, deal with them or move!  I almost forgot.  I can't wait for my orders out of here!  Of course, with my luck I'd get sent to NY or NJ!

Good call to try to keep this thread on track.

Ummm. News flash, the 2nd amendment doesn't gaurantee an individual the right to bear arms.  It gaurantees a well regulated state militia.  California has no state militia, just be glad you can even own a gun in the first place.  If California or the Federal gov't really wanted to they can take all guns away from civilians.  The reason the 2nd amendment was put in places was so that an Individual state can protect itself from the Federal Gov't should they ever start going crazy like a genocidal war or something along those lines.  And on the contrary the National Guard is not a state militia, their ass' belongs to the federal goverment when ever the federal gov't feels like using them.  The state cannot say no when the federal gov't needs them.  Until then the state borrrows them from the federal gov't.  A real militia by definition in the Constitution of the this great country would be something like the Texas militia.  For over 100 years now state rights really don't exist, it is the Federal Gov't that is really running the show.  Don't think that I am some tree loving fucking hippy.  All I can say is SCREW CALIFORNIA, I leave the state for 6 years to serve my country and all this bull shit gun control laws pop out of fuckn no where.  WTF were you guys f'n doing.  I hope California takes all the guns away from all the civilians, that way the criminals can run amuck and kill all of you tree fckn loving hippies.  I will again be station out of country and don't give a flying f*(K what happens to California because after that shit I'm gonna move to a differnt state.  Peace out bit(hes.

Oh by the way hope the criminals take out all you other none tree loving hippies too.  Why?  Because if you are not part of the solution or finding the answer to the solution you are the problem to.

Couldn't have said it better myselfh=85%

Quoted: Ummm. News flash, the 2nd amendment doesn't gaurantee an individual the right to bear arms.  It gaurantees a well regulated state militia.  California has no state militia, just be glad you can even own a gun in the first place.  If California or the Federal gov't really wanted to they can take all guns away from civilians.  The reason the 2nd amendment was put in places was so that an Individual state can protect itself from the Federal Gov't should they ever start going crazy like a genocidal war or something along those lines.  And on the contrary the National Guard is not a state militia, their ass' belongs to the federal goverment when ever the federal gov't feels like using them.  The state cannot say no when the federal gov't needs them.  Until then the state borrrows them from the federal gov't.  A real militia by definition in the Constitution of the this great country would be something like the Texas militia.  For over 100 years now state rights really don't exist, it is the Federal Gov't that is really running the show.  Don't think that I am some tree loving fucking hippy.  All I can say is SCREW CALIFORNIA, I leave the state for 6 years to serve my country and all this bull shit gun control laws pop out of fuckn no where.  WTF were you guys f'n doing.  I hope California takes all the guns away from all the civilians, that way the criminals can run amuck and kill all of you tree fckn loving hippies.  I will again be station out of country and don't give a flying f*(K what happens to California because after that shit I'm gonna move to a differnt state.  Peace out bit(hes.

Can the out-of-staters please stop p**ing in this thread unless they can offer constructive help in bringing more legal off-list AR/AK receivers into CA?

Y'all are not adding anything to this particular discussion, please vent it somewhere else.

News flash, the 2nd amendment doesn't gaurantee an individual the right to bear arms. It gaurantees a well regulated state militia. California has no state militia

 California  DOES have a state Militia. G. 762

Quoted: Can the out-of-staters please stop p**ing in this thread unless they can offer constructive help in bringing more legal off-list AR/AK receivers into CA? Y'all are not adding anything to this particular discussion, please vent it somewhere else.

+ 1

Quoted: Quoted: Can the out-of-staters please stop p**ing in this thread unless they can offer constructive help in bringing more legal off-list AR/AK receivers into CA? Y'all are not adding anything to this particular discussion, please vent it somewhere else. + 1

-1

Wow...  I need to get myself one of these lowers, and it just might be that time.  Sure hope I can still buy one and its not to late.  What is the going price on one of these Cali legal lowers and who makes the best?  Anyone???  

Piney...

Quoted: Wow...  I need to get myself one of these lowers, and it just might be that time.  Sure hope I can still buy one and its not to late.  What is the going price on one of these Cali legal lowers and who makes the best?  Anyone???

Varies with local FFL, the OEM price of the lower, and how the lower got into CA (directly or indirectly thru intermediary FFL), and any express shipping involved.  Varies from $170-$225 + tax and DROS.  If you're worried about price now, you're in the wrong game.

All off-list forged lowers are about the same quality - any will make a 100% functional, reliable rifle.

Don't waste time trying to get a specific brand - just get anything, now.  The lower has to be off-list to be legal, but a California FFL won't sell you an illegal listed one.

Please check the "223 Self-loading Rifle" forum, under the "Gun Rights, Legal, Political" forum on Calguns.net for current info on who has what.  Cold War Shooters in Highland carries them in southland, and Almaden Gun Exchange carries them in San Jose.  Others do too, and will order for you, or you could join a Calguns group buy.

Act quickly though.

Before you start doing ANYTHING with your bare lower, please read the FAQ on Calguns.net
www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm  to stay legal.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Why don't you people in CA do something about your states communist goverment?

Quoted: Can the out-of-staters please stop p**ing in this thread unless they can offer constructive help in bringing more legal off-list AR/AK receivers into CA? Y'all are not adding anything to this particular discussion, please vent it somewhere else.

Quoted: Why don't you people in CA do something about your states communist goverment? Quoted: Can the out-of-staters please stop p**ing in this thread unless they can offer constructive help in bringing more legal off-list AR/AK receivers into CA? Y'all are not adding anything to this particular discussion, please vent it somewhere else.

We are trying.  We have an innitative we are attempting to get on the November ballot to allow the amendment of the CA Consititution to add "the right to keep and bear arms" that is covered by other states under the 2nd Amendment.  Unfortunately those of us who own firearms are greatly out number by shallow think people who beleive all the BS that Mrs Feinstein tells them.

Thanks alot Bill Wiese for your help, I have just driven about 48 miles to San Jose to fill out my DROS papers and finished paying for my new lower.  And surely I believe it was well worth it.  Now the question is should I buy another one from the same dealer out in San Jose or is there a closer FFL dealer to San Francisco.  Thanks again  

Quoted: Thanks alot Bill Wiese for your help, I have just driven about 48 miles to San Jose to fill out my DROS papers and finished paying for my new lower.  And surely I believe it was well worth it.  Now the question is should I buy another one from the same dealer out in San Jose or is there a closer FFL dealer to San Francisco.  Thanks again

Glad you're set up.  Don't think there's a closer dealer.  There may be something in the East Bay but about equal or greater distance, who knows.

Were you there around 3:15-3:30pm-ish  this afternoon?  There was a guy DROSing a lower, had glasses.

I was the big vociferous asshole in the red sweater, khakis and the blue Smith & Wesson ball cap moseying around and talking to staff member Mike (the longhair guy) about AR legal issues.  I live about 1 mi away.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Yes bwiese that was me the distinguished guy with the glasses and tan NRA T shirt.    And yes, I was there about 3.30pm and that gun store has quite a inventory of fine firearms.  Hey its great to meet you even though its in a rather inpersonal way.  

I drove 35miles from Pleasanton to go down there and I think its worth it too. I bought 2 just for good measure! :) Hey Bill, if it wasn't for you and this forum I would have had no idea about being able to buy these, thanks! I just moved up here from Phoenix, AZ and all these laws really got me bummed but now there seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel.

Quoted: Ummm. News flash, the 2nd amendment doesn't gaurantee an individual the right to bear arms.  It gaurantees a well regulated state militia.  California has no state militia, just be glad you can even own a gun in the first place.  If California or the Federal gov't really wanted to they can take all guns away from civilians.  The reason the 2nd amendment was put in places was so that an Individual state can protect itself from the Federal Gov't should they ever start going crazy like a genocidal war or something along those lines.  And on the contrary the National Guard is not a state militia, their ass' belongs to the federal goverment when ever the federal gov't feels like using them.  The state cannot say no when the federal gov't needs them.  Until then the state borrrows them from the federal gov't.  A real militia by definition in the Constitution of the this great country would be something like the Texas militia.  For over 100 years now state rights really don't exist, it is the Federal Gov't that is really running the show.  Don't think that I am some tree loving fucking hippy.  All I can say is SCREW CALIFORNIA, I leave the state for 6 years to serve my country and all this bull shit gun control laws pop out of fuckn no where.  WTF were you guys f'n doing.  I hope California takes all the guns away from all the civilians, that way the criminals can run amuck and kill all of you tree fckn loving hippies.  I will again be station out of country and don't give a flying f*(K what happens to California because after that shit I'm gonna move to a differnt state.  Peace out bit(hes.

The Bill of Rights, including the 2nd Amendment apply to ALL Americans regardless of which state they live in. To speak on this issue in any other fashion is incorrect. Sure, the gun grabbers want everyone to believe that the 2nd Amendment applies to the state in terms of regulating a militia....that is flawed logic. The Bill of Rights consist of INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. All of them except the 10th which states all rights not spelled out in the Bill of Right are reserved to the states. Key point there is 1-9 are INDIVIDUAL rights.

The problem lies in that the SCOTUS has not clearly spoken on this issue. When the proper test case rises to the SCOTUS they will determine that the 2nd Amendment applies to the INDIVIDUAL, not the state.

While I thank you for your service to our country and understand your frustrations, you are clearly taking it out on the wrong people. Here in CA, us law abiding gun owners are the minority....if it were up to us this would not be happening at all. So please save the rants and name calling for those that actually deserve it.

Sorry but Bill is wrong, Acording to DOJ.

ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ar15notice.pdf

Malibu,

As I understand it that is simply a memo that may or may not have been generated to help slow the number of lowers which are making their way into the state.

I see a memo on a gov page that has the DOJ saying it is illegal it makes me at the very least worry. I only talked to some FFL up north via message board and they said don't try it but I plan on talking to my local guy and see his thought on it.

Malibuman...

Go get an off-list lower.  Build it into a fixed-10rd-mag rifle or keep it as a bare lower.  The DOJ will, more than likely, soon list it as an assault weapon.  Keep it in one of these two legal configurations until you hear otherwise.

This DOJ memo is that, a memo.  It is not law.  It does not even have force now.  It has numerous elements that are challengeable in court on a variety of levels.  I've written 17pg rebuttal memo that is in the hands of lawyers now, being expanded upon further.  The DOJ is asserting a variety of untenable actions that cannot be supported in statutory law.  We will fight to have it stricken via injunction if/when the actions in the memo take effect, and the gun lawyers I spoke to have a great deal of confidence it can/will be.

The very fact that the memo says they will enforce "...via the registration process" means there is no supporting criminal code violation they can cite for the actions they wish to prohibit.  

The prime motivation of this memo was likely not to actually enact what the memo said, but to dilute interest in off-list lowers.  This is politically embarrassing for them and they just want us to shut up.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Quoted: Go get an off-list lower.  Build it into a fixed-10rd-mag rifle or keep it as a bare lower.  The DOJ will, more than likely, soon list it as an assault weapon.  Keep it in one of these two legal configurations until you hear otherwise.

What would be the benefit of getting the off-list lower rather then normal "California legal" fixed 10 round?

I really want an AR but all the CA crap is heavy.

The CA legal lower has no way of allowing you to inset a magazine, forcing you break open the weapon to  load or unload it.

Quoted: The CA legal lower has no way of allowing you to inset a magazine, forcing you break open the weapon to  load or unload it.

As you can see I am a novas so bear with me.

How do you load the other fixed 10 round mag off list ones.

The real hope here is that ultimately you will be able to register this off-list lower as an assault weapon and then be able to use a magazine like the rest of the folks in the other 49 states.

Until then you install a kit that requires a "tool" for the magazine removal to make it legal.  There are folks her on AR15 in the Exchange that sell the kits.

Quoted: The real hope here is that ultimately you will be able to register this off-list lower as an assault weapon and then be able to use a magazine like the rest of the folks in the other 49 states. Until then you install a kit that requires a "tool" for the magazine removal to make it legal.  There are folks her on AR15 in the Exchange that sell the kits.

can I get a link to the "tool"?

also what is a good (read not going to bust my budget) off list lower receiver?

Try http://www.tenpercentfirearms.com/sporting_conversions.htm

They are all good, and it's late enough in the game you wont be able to be very picky.

Does anyone have a list of the manufactures that are currently not on the list?

Quoted: Does anyone have a list of the manufactures that are currently not on the list?

Anything not listed by combination of make and model in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, which is also called the "Kasler list".

It's at ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/aw.pdf

You should read the FAQ at Calguns  www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm  to stay legal.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Quoted: Anything not listed by combination of make and model in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, which is also called the "Kasler list".

so I get to choose from

Double star
Fulton Armory
Mega Gator
Stag arms

Quoted: Quoted: Anything not listed by combination of make and model in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, which is also called the "Kasler list". so I get to choose from Double star Fulton Armory Mega Gator Stag arms

There are quite a few others, but these are fine.  All are equal in quality and all will build up into a 100% reliable, functional, accurate rifle.

Bill W.
San Jose

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anything not listed by combination of make and model in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11, which is also called the "Kasler list". so I get to choose from Double star Fulton Armory Mega Gator Stag arms There are quite a few others, but these are fine.  All are equal in quality and all will build up into a 100% reliable, functional, accurate rifle. Bill W. San Jose

I sent this to a friend a while back, here's a copy and paste.

Some brands and models to ponder(or google):

STAG STAG-15 (deer head logo, "parkerized" finish similiar to Bushmaster)
DOUBLESTAR STAR-15 (dragon logo)
LAUER CUSTOM WEAPONRY LCW-15 (cross cannons logo)
MEGA MACHINE CORP. GATOR (atom logo, NASA parts supplier, mindblowing quality)
SUPERIOR ARMS (some have cosmetic only "auto" markings)
SUN DEVIL (bullit machined, beauty contest winner)
FULTON ARMORY FAR-15 (greyish color, like old school Colts)
AMEETEC WM-15
CMMG MOD4SA (picture of a M4 logo)
GSE (GUNSMOKE ENTERPRISES) (Navy Seals logo)
DSA ZM-4
VULCAN CARBON FIBER V-15
ROCK RIVER ARMS LAR-15
POF P-416 (HK style selector markings)

OK Guys, I'm SoCal, Why hasn't anyone posted where can I get a lower! Name and location of the FFL.
Please someone!!

How far SoCal?

People like this dude need to be put down hard and fast by beating them about the head with common sense.

Ummm. News flash, the 2nd amendment doesn't gaurantee an individual the right to bear arms. It gaurantees a well regulated state militia.

Wrong for several reasons.  The most glaring error, of course, is your third grade reading comprehension.  

- First, an example - lets look at the following wording (made up by me) which uses the same sentence structure:

"A well educated electorate being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."

Does that sentence mean that only people of age to vote or registered voters are allowed to keep and read books?    Of course not.  The first section of the sentence is the reasoning for the provision.  

The 2A doesn't say the right of the states, or of militias, to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.  It says The People.  At no other point in the Constitution or the BoR does anyone argue that "The People" means anything other than "The People".  Last time I checked, I was a People.

- Secondly,  virtually every primary source from that time period, written by the framers and addressing this issue, points to the 2A as being an individual right.  Their intent was not in question.  Nevertheless, plenty of fools these days try to write off that intent by putting up straw man arguments and saying things like "you mean you think people should be able to own tanks and atom bombs??!111"

- Third, amendments 1 and 3 through 10 in the Bill of Rights specifically agknowledge (not "grants", for those of you needing a civics lesson) individual rights that may not be trampled on by the state.  Hint; so does the second.

- Four, even if it did refer to the militia, it's a federal document and the militia is defined in the USC.  I'm in it and so are you, unless you're 12 years old or some such.

Preaching to the choir for many of you, but handing out some good argumentative ammo never hurts.  A SCOTUS test is due, now that the 9th and some other circuit have ruled on opposite sides of this issue.  They don't seem to be in a hurry to take it up, though.

That CA memo is a real crock of shit.  I hope that state is bursting at the seams with lowers before they get that list updated.

Ok just so I am straight, after buying and registering the bare lower with DOJ I can then add any manufacture parts as long as I comply with the no flash hider, locked 10 rd mag, and over the allotted length? How hard is it dealing with registering the lower with DOJ?

The registration process hasn't begun yet, we are still awaiting the word from the CA DOJ.  By the way, the REAL DOJ ought to make them stop referring to themselves as the DOJ and change it to the CA DOJ.

Quoted: The registration process hasn't begun yet, we are still awaiting the word from the CA DOJ.  By the way, the REAL DOJ ought to make them stop referring to themselves as the DOJ and change it to the CA DOJ.

Ok I did not correctly word my question.

I just buy the lower and put on the mag tool and it is all legal. Is there anything more to buying the lower? I just have to find an off list lower and that is it?

Okay I talked to DOJ and everything is correct. I now need to find a FFL around north Orange County that can order the lower.

Sorry, Where in LA, Orange Co, San Bernardino, Riverside, is there a FFL to get a lower??

Guys, I know a guy here in Ventura county that can hook you up.  It's a bit of a drive, so I guess it depends on how badly you want it.  Send me a PM if you want his info.

Bill,

How long is this fight with CA expected to take?  How do you recommend the pinning of the magazine to be accomplished to comply with current CA law?

all i did was remove the mag release button, install a small nylon washer (to prevent bolt scaring on my lower) and use a small teflon lock nut in its place.

this locks the mag down. meets DOJ requirement.... and no scratching to my lower.

smallblockfuelie wrote: How long is this fight with CA expected to take?  How do you recommend the pinning of the magazine to be accomplished to comply with current CA law?

Gawd knows. Right now the memo is just a memo. It really has no legal significance until a listing/registration period begins.   That's when standing occurs and when things can be challenged.

Gluing in mag may well help. The DOJ may just be doing scare tactics, though.  They might be able to drum up seizures of fixed mag rifles, but will prob stay away from arrests - generally, property has a lower standard of seizure than the standard required for arrest of a person.  

Plan B is to just run the damned rifle without any pistol grip, telestock, flash hider or front vertical foregrip.   Then you can use a detachable mag without problem.  (Don't have the pistol grip nearby though!)


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA