It's really not magic or anything...

Knowledge truly is power when it comes to just about anything.

Come with a decent gun that you know runs well (e.g. you have a few thousands rds thru it)

Know how and where and how much to lubricate...

Have good magazines that are numbered so you can identify problem mags as they occur.. when a bad one crops up.. get rid of it.. don't try to stick time in money into makeing it work.. it's like repairing a VCR.....

Have good gear and be comfortable with it. if you don't shoot with gloves in practice.. don't do it in the class... you will suck and take them off by the afternoon of day one..

Have decent ammo if you can ( I know that's a tought one).

Have you Carbine zeroed BEFORE class.


I could go on and on... but the truly good shooters, can make pretty much anything run and they don't get wrapped around the axle on the minutia. They stick with good proven stuff that works. And focus on applying the basic fundementals over and over again until they can do it consistently.

Every guy in the class can own a Colt that is perfect in everyway... and still struggle to insert and lock a magazine. or not have his pistol loaded or ready to go..or not be able to consistently apply the basics of trigger squeeze and ease to reset..........

...or have a bushamster and fail to PUSH/PULL on the magazine- and thereby becoming the only guy at an EAG class who was both "That Guy" and Top Shooter!



You are my hero Harv....!!!

I'm just doing my part brother...
Some body has to be a bad example.....

Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: Thanks- but there is no "D" in my name...

Sorry about that.

And welcome to the team.

No Biggie Jack.

And, Thanks!

20+ years of military wepaons  training,
plus three carbine courses. all 5 day courses.
fisrt one, used an Armalite. 2.5 K rounds in the course and no issues. South African 5.56 55gr.

second: FN M16A2 with 11.5" Bushy upper.  3K rounds, only issue was the carrier key came loose. tightened, restaked no issues. Gun ran like a champ.M855 Ball for whole ocurse.

third BUSHY: 3 K rounds, one stuck case.  A result of me wanting to see how Wolf performed after hearing all of the horror stories about it.  Ran it till it choked; 4th day. about 2K rds.  and no cleaning. ripped the rim off. Using polymer coated steel Wolf. No other issues with it. The horrors of Wolf didnt materialize. My partner used it also and no issues. Couldnt get brass cased and needed ammo. We moved to the KD range and I was engaging steel at 300M with the Bushy with ACOG and Wolf.  No problems hitting 12x12 steel at 300M.


Other guys in course used Hornandy steel cased and no issues with theirs either.

I use WOLF for blasting now. Stuff works great.
I use good condition  USGI 30 rd. mags, never loaded more than 28 rds, so they seat easily with bolt forward.

I dont use aftermarket triggers or other gizmos. I stick to stock parts.
My ACOG has ARMS doubel lever mounts and has never failed. Used it for a tour in Iraq and it was great there also. Used stock M4 with Reflex II in A-stan, no issues either.

I had a CA CO in Iraq and we supported an IN BDE. All of us out of the wire 6 days a week.   No M4 breakdowns. I was on all my guys asses about PMCS. I am an E7 stuck in an O4 body. Plus 25 years running my own gunsmithing business makes me a little more savy than the average Joe.

We ran MILITEC for lube and it worked fine.

Bottom line for pulling the trigger is knowing your equipment, proper PMCS for the theater you are operating in, good mags, clean ammo.

I know I strayed a bit.

I had Pat for a Gunsite Mobile Training Pistol Course in Harrisburg back in 98 before I went to Bosnia. Great course.

I am an E7 stuck in an O4 body.

That is terrific!

That was a cold and wet class- i remember that an ice storm moved in during that class, no?
You are correct. Take care of your gear. Sharp guys seldom have problems because they know what they have to look for.

Great hearing from you!

Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: I am an E7 stuck in an O4 body. That is terrific! That was a cold and wet class- i remember that an ice storm moved in during that class, no? You are correct. Take care of your gear. Sharp guys seldom have problems because they know what they have to look for. Great hearing from you!

Pat,

Thanks for taking the time to share your wisdom. I look forward to taking a course with you someday.

Just curious (putting my flame-proof armor on);

Have you had any piston AR's go through your courses? If so, how did they hold their own compaired to the DI's?

What parts failed on the pistons, if any? Any particular models you saw do well? Were they just as accurate as the DI's?

Any thoughts on the 'new' generation of piston AR's coming down the pike?

What mags have you liked the best?

Thanks,

Falafull

Questions like these are always tough as no matter what you say, someones cow is slain.
Comments below each question.

Have you had any piston AR's go through your courses? If so, how did they hold their own compaired to the DI's?

Yes. The percentages in non mil classes are small. Some did well, others didn't. There is a maturing process, and what we see now is better then what we saw 2 years ago.

What parts failed on the pistons, if any? Any particular models you saw do well? Were they just as accurate as the DI's?

a) It depends on the manufacturer. Not enough of a statistical sample to make a determination on parts breakage.
b) 416 and new LWRC. We have seen more of these though.
c) All possessed reasonable combat accuracy. I'll opine that accuracy is as much an ammunition factor as anything else.

Any thoughts on the 'new' generation of piston AR's coming down the pike?

I like what i am seeing out of the new LWRC. I'll have 3 guns to run at classes through July. I'll know more about them at that time

Like others, i am not convinced at this time that a piston gun holds major advantages for the majority of those who own / use AR's. However, under some circumstances, they may be very advantageous.
One high profile fed agancy spec'd a piston gun for their people. I am sure others will as well.

What mags have you liked the best?

I use BCM mags (D&H) as well as PMAG's in my guns. I have a bunch of rehabilitated GI mags w/ Magpul followers and springs in the armory as well.

Mr. Roger's, I mean aaaaah... Pat, aaaah, I don't know how to address you.  My wife is from Alabama and they taught her to say Sir and Ma'am, and my Mother in Law doesn't like that I call them by their first name.

Anyways, all that aside.  Harv's going to hate me for this question but I'm not asking to start a flame fest, I'm asking to understand.

It has been noted that the rifle gas system is easier on the bolt, may be more reliable, and if you're are stuck with the irons, the sight radius is an assett. At least from what I can tell.  Are these true to an extent and if so is it enough to matter?  I have a Colt 20" rifle that I like, but I can see that the dimensions are not ideal for HD or obviously a CQB rig.  I realize they don't point as fast and are heavier.  I've been debating on turning into a carbine for years, but it runs good now and am worried about messing up a Colt by changing the config.  Plus, if it is true that the Rifle assetts may help at some point, I don't want to overlook that.  I live in the chilly north and sometimes wonder if the rifle gas system isn't a better idea to have up hear in the cold months.  And really, during firing, the Rifle is a smooth operator.  But my Dad has an RRA M4gery and I can see that a carbine is a very handy thing indeed.

I am not a contractor, officer, or soldier.  But I am an enthusiast that likes to know that facts and try to heed the advice of professionals.  I'm sorry if my question may seem sort of newbish.

I'm sure you've seen your share of rifles in your classes and just wanted to get your thoughts on this.

Pat will work fine.
Harv won't hate you. If he does, i have pictures of him wearing chicks clothes.
OK, not really, but he won't hate you.

It has been noted that the rifle gas system is easier on the bolt, may be more reliable, and if you're are stuck with the irons, the sight radius is an assett. At least from what I can tell.  Are these true to an extent and if so is it enough to matter?

Yes- it is easier on the bolt
Yes- it may be more reliable
Yes- sight radius is an asset
No- it is not enough to matter.

Rifle bolts may last longer than a bolt in an M4 or MK18. However, it is all relevant.
The bolt is going to work harder in a shorter barreled gun, but the firing schedule apparently has a lot to do with longevity.
There have been studies/ tests conducted to be sure, but as few keep data on individual guns in the military under controlled circumstances, don't worry about it too much.
When you get someplace around the 10,000 to 14,000 round count, consider replacing the bolt.

Reliability is the endstate, but how reliable (or not) a gun is has a lot to do with who made it (are they following a standard or cutting corners), magazines, lubrication and ammo.
The shorter the barrel, the more finicky it MAY become, but i have slung enough lead downrange (and supervised more) from barrels 16" to 7.5" that i am not super worried about it.
Maintain the gun, use good ammo and keep it lubed.

Sight radius is only an asset as the distance increases- 100m may be an arbitrary starting point as to where it makes a difference. Optics negate this, but inside a structure increased sight radius means slower to get into action.

I live in the chilly north and sometimes wonder if the rifle gas system isn't a better idea to have up hear in the cold months.

Understood. I have shot short barreled guns in below zero WX. Cold messes up a lot of things (mostly me), but if you are concerned, stay with your rifle.
Proper lube is really important in the cold....

And really, during firing, the Rifle is a smooth operator.

That may answer your question better than I...

Have you run your Dad's gun enough to figure things out?
My preference is for carbines to be at 16" or below, depending on mission requirements. I only have 20" guns for sentimental reasons, and hardly shoot them anymore.
I can't/ won't make a decision for you (obviously). You have a fairly good grasp on this, and whatever your decision, give it a good shake.
But if i were going to buy a replacement upper for that Colt lower, it would be a Bravo Company upper.

We are all enthusiasts to some degree. The transfer of information (instead of dramanet rumours and myth's) is what keeps the info flowing.

My experience... make sure your gas keys are tightened and staked.

I have two ARs that I shoot regularly, have taken to classes, and shot in competitions.  Last weekend during a carbine class at Tactical Response one of them turned into a single shot charging-handle-operated weapon.  Gas key was not staked at all.

I borrowed a complete BCG to finish day 2 of the class.  That night Yeager tightened and staked them for me.

My fault since I should have known better.  Not a problem with the rifles until the magic combination of hard shooting that day loosened one of them enough,

Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: Pat will work fine. Harv won't hate you. If he does, i have pictures of him wearing chicks clothes. OK, not really, but he won't hate you. It has been noted that the rifle gas system is easier on the bolt, may be more reliable, and if you're are stuck with the irons, the sight radius is an assett. At least from what I can tell.  Are these true to an extent and if so is it enough to matter? Yes- it is easier on the bolt Yes- it may be more reliable Yes- sight radius is an asset No- it is not enough to matter. Rifle bolts may last longer than a bolt in an M4 or MK18. However, it is all relevant. The bolt is going to work harder in a shorter barreled gun, but the firing schedule apparently has a lot to do with longevity. There have been studies/ tests conducted to be sure, but as few keep data on individual guns in the military under controlled circumstances, don't worry about it too much. When you get someplace around the 10,000 to 14,000 round count, consider replacing the bolt. Reliability is the endstate, but how reliable (or not) a gun is has a lot to do with who made it (are they following a standard or cutting corners), magazines, lubrication and ammo. The shorter the barrel, the more finicky it MAY become, but i have slung enough lead downrange (and supervised more) from barrels 16" to 7.5" that i am not super worried about it. Maintain the gun, use good ammo and keep it lubed. Sight radius is only an asset as the distance increases- 100m may be an arbitrary starting point as to where it makes a difference. Optics negate this, but inside a structure increased sight radius means slower to get into action. I live in the chilly north and sometimes wonder if the rifle gas system isn't a better idea to have up hear in the cold months. Understood. I have shot short barreled guns in below zero WX. Cold messes up a lot of things (mostly me), but if you are concerned, stay with your rifle. Proper lube is really important in the cold.... And really, during firing, the Rifle is a smooth operator. That may answer your question better than I... Have you run your Dad's gun enough to figure things out? My preference is for carbines to be at 16" or below, depending on mission requirements. I only have 20" guns for sentimental reasons, and hardly shoot them anymore. I can't/ won't make a decision for you (obviously). You have a fairly good grasp on this, and whatever your decision, give it a good shake. But if i were going to buy a replacement upper for that Colt lower, it would be a Bravo Company upper. We are all enthusiasts to some degree. The transfer of information (instead of dramanet rumours and myth's) is what keeps the info flowing.

Thank you very much for the response!!!!

That bravo company recommendation hit me like a ton of bricks for some reason.  I was thinking on just rebarreling my Upper with a colt barrel and get a good collapsible stock. I would have someone reputable do the rebarreling though.   Anyways, thanks again for your wisdom and it's good to see someone of your caliber frequenting this board.  

ETA: I'm not exactly sure what you meant by have a I fired my dad's enough to "figure it out."  Maybe that was rhetorical.  I know that with ADCOM ammo I got a stuck case once, but I assumed it may have been the ammo.  But it did pop up in the back of my mind about the shorter gas system.  It's louder.  But yes, I really like the handiness off it and seems to be a better option for a Defense weapon especially confined area.(besides the louder report)  And it runs very well besides the one malf.  I have a recce type upper built by ADCO but I think that is really more suited to punching holes.  Although it may be very durable.  It's all WOA.  I'm not as confident in the RRA lower with a 2 stage trigger as my Colt.  That's why I was debating on changing my colt to be the GP carbine.  Anyways, that's all personal.  Thank you again for your input!!!!!!.

Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: Actually i haven't used CLP in 7 years. I run Slip 2000 EWL, but yeah i have a big spray bottle on the line and i give the students a 1 oz bottle for their gear.

Pat-
What do ya think of Mil Comm's TW25B?  And do you hink my STAG model 2T will be good to go for my Gunsite carbine course?  It on ly has about 1500 rounds through it.  I run the EO Tech 553.

TW25B is good grease and made for medium support weapons. It is good in very wet environments.
However, the AR was meant to run on oil.
Partner, i can't tell you if your gun will run.
Stag's are generally OK, but the keys may not be staked and they use the 4 coil ext spring and blue insert.
If you have 1500 rds through it, it will probably be OK.

Have fun.

Thanks Pat.  And just for your info...Mil Comm also makes TW25B in an oil form...of course it is called something other than TW25B.

I was also thinking of buying another complete bolt for my STAG 2T.  Any special fitting need to be done? Should I buy a bolt from STAG or do you have any other suggestions for a high quality bolt?

JJREA..
Don't worry brother.. I won't hate you.....

I know you like your 20" Musket.. I watched a guy in one of Pat's class run that course with a full length M16A1.
I think he did it for sentimental reason... and he did pretty good if I recall...

I ran a full size for quite a few years before I switched.... but once you do, and you get some serious time behind one...You won't go back...

As for the BCM recommendation.... That's exactly what I did, and it run's like a top.... excellent upper made by a great American...who actually shoots pretty good for a former Marine.....(just teasin Paul...)

Perhaps a Mid length carbine would be the answer your looking for...

Wow, you remember. Yes it was rainy, we even had sleet and ice one day. Great course though. I learend a lot. You never stop learning. AT least I dont.

PS: I was enlisted before I went over to the dark side!!

Pat,
some advice. start by using a stock AR of good manufacture. (whos?)

Okay, give your top five choices of main manufcaturers.

what would you do to it to make it what you would want mechanically.

what parts would you change out, what aftermarket  stuff would you put in/on it.

What is your experience with MILITEC and the AR platform.

What has been your esperience with students shwoing up with WOLF Polymer steel ammo? Have you seen the horror stories that are passed around? No the laquered stuff.(the reality is that with 556 in short supply, you have to shoot what yo u can get)

OST

Originally Posted By Harv24: JJREA.. Don't worry brother.. I won't hate you..... I know you like your 20" Musket.. I watched a guy in one of Pat's class run that course with a full length M16A1. I think he did it for sentimental reason... and he did pretty good if I recall... I ran a full size for quite a few years before I switched.... but once you do, and you get some serious time behind one...You won't go back... As for the BCM recommendation.... That's exactly what I did, and it run's like a top.... excellent upper made by a great American...who actually shoots pretty good for a former Marine.....(just teasin Paul...) Perhaps a Mid length carbine would be the answer your looking for...

It's not that I don't like carbines, I do.  I just was thinking the pros of the 20" are there.  But it seems like they reach a point of diminished returns.  My recce is a middy and shoots very smooth.  But, if I go carbine with the colt, I wanna do a 14.5 w/perm, so I'd rather go carbine in that case.  Plus, as stupid as it might sound, I'll probably just use my A2 upper.  When I get the dough for a good optic, it's probably going to be a compact ACOG on the handle.  Call me crazy, but I like the little bit higher cheek weld.  I always have.  I don't like it too high, but a little higher than where the irons are place is a good thing in my opinion.  For plinking I have a cheap 4x handle mount.  I was going to start buying reloading equipment, but I may just do this first.  Maybe I can sell my 20" barrel to somebody.  Oh well, this is really off topic.  Carry on.

Pat: A hearty plus one on thanking you for posting here. I always lurk at 10-8, and am almost alway's amazed at the difference in info on that site compared to here. It must have something to do with the fact that members on 10-8 have to post with their actual names. It does create a more polite crowd, for sure. Its sometimes missing from this board. What's your opinion on running a chromed carrier? MSTN is offering a BCG with the chromed carrier, and an LMT bolt with an "Ion Bond" finish. In your experience, would the chromed carrier dissipate heat a bit or contribute to more reliablity? I have bought tweaked Stag Arms BCG's from Paul at Bravo Co. and am quite happy running them through my franken-AR. Thanks, again. By the way, my name is Tony.

I hope I didn't miss it somewhere else, but how do the Armalites hold up in the classes?

Due in large part to this thread (and that pic of the broken bolt in particular), I just dropped $200 on a BCM Ion Bonded BCG from Denny's (to replace my stock Bushy BCG). I had bought spare pins and springs and such in the past, and figured that would be enough. After this thread, though... an improperly staked gas key and "lowest common denominator" bolt are just too much. I'm not about to risk this stuff going bad when the lives of my family are on the line.

Many thanks to ARFCOM for making me burn another couple hundred dollars on my rifle. Maybe one day it'll be up to spec.

Now I'm off to try and stake the castle nut. Wish me luck.

Comments in BOLD

Originally Posted By huntgrouse: Pat, some advice. start by using a stock AR of good manufacture. (whos?) Okay, give your top five choices of main manufcaturers. Colt; LMT: Noveske: Sully: new S&W; also any of those lowers with Larue Uppers; BCM uppers what would you do to it to make it what you would want mechanically. Nothing- that is why i would use the above what parts would you change out, what aftermarket  stuff would you put in/on it. a) None    b) Tac sling. Aimpoint Larue Mount. White light What is your experience with MILITEC and the AR platform. I use Slip 2000 EWL What has been your esperience with students shwoing up with WOLF Polymer steel ammo? Have you seen the horror stories that are passed around? No the laquered stuff.(the reality is that with 556 in short supply, you have to shoot what yo u can get) I think you answered your own question there!!

Originally Posted By Pat_Rogers: Questions like these are always tough as no matter what you say, someones cow is slain. Comments below each question. Have you had any piston AR's go through your courses? If so, how did they hold their own compaired to the DI's? Yes. The percentages in non mil classes are small. Some did well, others didn't. There is a maturing process, and what we see now is better then what we saw 2 years ago. What parts failed on the pistons, if any? Any particular models you saw do well? Were they just as accurate as the DI's? a) It depends on the manufacturer. Not enough of a statistical sample to make a determination on parts breakage. b) 416 and new LWRC. We have seen more of these though. c) All possessed reasonable combat accuracy. I'll opine that accuracy is as much an ammunition factor as anything else. Any thoughts on the 'new' generation of piston AR's coming down the pike? I like what i am seeing out of the new LWRC. I'll have 3 guns to run at classes through July. I'll know more about them at that time Like others, i am not convinced at this time that a piston gun holds major advantages for the majority of those who own / use AR's. However, under some circumstances, they may be very advantageous. One high profile fed agancy spec'd a piston gun for their people. I am sure others will as well. What mags have you liked the best? I use BCM mags (D&H) as well as PMAG's in my guns. I have a bunch of rehabilitated GI mags w/ Magpul followers and springs in the armory as well.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I know it wasn't easy but I appreciate your professional experience here.

Best,
Falafull

My pleasure! Hope it helps.

Originally Posted By TEMPLARKNIGHT: Pat: A hearty plus one on thanking you for posting here. I always lurk at 10-8, and am almost alway's amazed at the difference in info on that site compared to here. It must have something to do with the fact that members on 10-8 have to post with their actual names. It does create a more polite crowd, for sure. Its sometimes missing from this board. What's your opinion on running a chromed carrier? MSTN is offering a BCG with the chromed carrier, and an LMT bolt with an "Ion Bond" finish. In your experience, would the chromed carrier dissipate heat a bit or contribute to more reliablity? I have bought tweaked Stag Arms BCG's from Paul at Bravo Co. and am quite happy running them through my franken-AR. Thanks, again. By the way, my name is Tony.

Hi Tony- sorry for the delay. I agree re true names. It adds a level of civility not normally in existence at forums that permit screen names.
On the forum that i share w/ Jeff Gonzales we do true name as well.

Re cgromed carriers. I have no personal experience with the Ion Bond, but of course know of it. I am not an engineer so heat dissapation is way above my paygrade...
Unsure as to how it might/ might not effect reliability either.
If Wes Grant is selling it, i consider him to be the gold standard on many levels (even if he is a pilot...)

Paul is another great guy, and that tweaked bolt should keep you in the game.

I've just been skimming the discussion and taking in what useful information I can, but I'd like to take a second to extend a 'thank you' to Pat Rogers for sharing his experience.  You've probably got more pressing things to eat up your time, and I appreciate that you've opted to offer your opinions here at ARFCom.

Also, Semper Fi (even though I'm just a POG reservist), sir.

Hey Devil Dog! Thanks for the kind words.
Re Reserve- we are all Marines, regardless of the component.
Thank you for your service to our Country.

Has anyone ever noted problems with the CMMG barrels during a class? FTF or FTE? Just wondering if I should get the R0921HB to replace my 14.7" M4A1 barrel on my Colt. It hasn't ever given me any problems so far, and made it fine through a high round count 3-day course, but wouldn't want any surprises down the road.

The question I have regards barrels as well.  (I kinda find it hard to imagine that any regular barrel would have troubles - what could go wrong?  )

My question is, Is there any reason to consider not using a superlight barrel ('Pencil Barrel') on a Carbine Course?  I can imagine that heat may screw with the barrel in extreme circumstances, but at the same time the Pencil Barrel can cool faster.  So for use up to some point, in theory, a PB seems ok, but past a certain point of constant firing a PB probably gets screwed up.

But does a carbine class push carbines, and pencil barrels, to that limit?

Lighter barrels / guns are easy to carry but may not be as easy to shoot (talikng about 1200-2000 rds in 3 days.
For a carbine, no discernible accuracy issues under 50m, but some vertical stringing may occur.

Yes- they can get hot. I have fired an M16A1 carbine at training and it can get very hot. Gloves, FF rails and VFG can mitigate this.

Hope this helps.

So will a lighter barrel cause a noticeable jump in recoil?  So much so that it would be a pain over time in a course?

The_Floridian

So will a lighter barrel cause a noticeable jump in recoil? So much so that it would be a pain over time in a course?

The recoil from a standard Profile barrel is pretty much negligible. Were still talking 5.56mm rd here. The same barrel profile and round used in Millions of M16's.

My experience is the standard profile barrels are easily warmed up in rapid fire strings and you notice a shift in POI. At closer ranges it's not a big whoop, but when you get out towards 50 to 100 yrds you will see it. How much really depends on how hot you get it and how many rds you dump thru it in a period of time.

I like the M4 profile barrels as I think they are a good balance between weight and stiff ness that minimizes that. A good shooting stance and a little technique will give you good control.

Either way, your going to be fine.

Harv, thank you very much - both for taking the time to explain to me what I will be facing when I am able to take a course, and for the "standard" nomenclature - it sounds MUCH better than using "Pencil Barrel" or "Superlight" each time.  

Originally Posted By Harv24: The_Floridian So will a lighter barrel cause a noticeable jump in recoil? So much so that it would be a pain over time in a course?   The recoil from a standard Profile barrel is pretty much negligible. Were still talking 5.56mm rd here. The same barrel profile and round used in Millions of M16's. My experience is the standard profile barrels are easily warmed up in rapid fire strings and you notice a shift in POI. At closer ranges it's not a big whoop, but when you get out towards 50 to 100 yrds you will see it. How much really depends on how hot you get it and how many rds you dump thru it in a period of time. I like the M4 profile barrels as I think they are a good balance between weight and stiff ness that minimizes that. A good shooting stance and a little technique will give you good control. Either way, your going to be fine.

I don't quite understand.  Aren't all Govt' profiles basically LW under the handguards?  When you say the M4 barrel, are you meaning the SOCOM M4 profile or the Govt'?  If it is Gov't under the handguards, I don't see how having extra weight and thickness on the end would do much to change things in rapid firing.  Now with an HBAR, or even a mid weight type barrel, then yeah, I could see why it would have less deflection during firing strings and getting all heated up.  I would think at some point, weight becomes weight and the less you have the better you are to mover around not get fatigued.  Of course, I'm a whimp.  

This just secured another years Membership for me!  

JJREA

I don't quite understand. Aren't all Govt' profiles basically LW under the handguards? When you say the M4 barrel, are you meaning the SOCOM M4 profile or the Govt'? If it is Gov't under the handguards, I don't see how having extra weight and thickness on the end would do much to change things in rapid firing. Now with an HBAR, or even a mid weight type barrel, then yeah, I could see why it would have less deflection during firing strings and getting all heated up. I would think at some point, weight becomes weight and the less you have the better you are to mover around not get fatigued. Of course, I'm a whimp.

I'm a simple guy..I don't alot about metallurgy or ballistics or how Cold fusion reactors work (well, maybe just a little..)I just know that when I shoot one of each barrel, the .Gov profile works better for me then the Standard profile. Is it as good as the SOCOM or HBAR profile.....? probably not, but it is the best compromise I have used.

And Keep in Mind, For MANY years, I ran with a 16" HBAR and never  thought much about it.

My Dad's M4gery is an HBAR and it's not too bad.  You do lose a few ounces with the shorter barrel.  But when I hold my brothers 20" A1 profiled barrel and A1 sights and no FA or ejection hump, I just about crap my pants on how light that rifle is.  I guess you would call it an M16 replica.  It's a fulton Legacy.  It's soo light.  And it still handles pretty nice during firing.  

Anyways, I just didn't see how the heavier profile on the end of the barrel would help anything.  

tag for later

Damn this is a good thread

Originally Posted By 0612Devil: I believe this is the Article Mr. Rogers was referring to: www.ar15.com/content/swat/keepitrunning.pdf

Great article - thanks for sharing.

Pat, I'm thinking LMT lower and upper, CMT  LPK and BCG(MPI'ed staked correctly), Sabre Defense midlength barrel.  Do you see any issues?  As much as I want to, I just cant afford a Colt at the moment.

FAIL-SAFE

Pat, I'm thinking LMT lower and upper, CMT LPK and BCG(MPI'ed staked correctly), Sabre Defense midlength barrel. Do you see any issues? As much as I want to, I just cant afford a Colt at the moment.

I don't think his Magic 8 ball can predict if your choices will stand the test of time.

But I will say that you should be good after you get about 1500 rds thru it..Then you'll know...
And I don't believe LMT sells stripped lowers so get one with LMT  LPK (better) .

What a great thread.  I am new to AR's, got my FIRST one recently.  Thanks to all for the info I've picked up here, especially Pat_Rogers.  While reading the article on cleaning and lubing I was moved to go get my RRA Elite CAR out of the safe and revisit its lubrication.  It may have been a bit dry but its wet nowhow
Anyhow, the questions raised in my mind are;

Saw a few references to D-fender or extractor O rings, what are they and how beneficial are they?

Why put oil in the gas key? I've read NOT to put anything into gas system.

Thanks again for all the great info,
Mds238

Saw a few references to D-fender or extractor O rings, what are they and how beneficial are they? Why put oil in the gas key? I've read NOT to put anything into gas system. Thanks again for all the great info, Mds238

The O ring and Defender are both designed to increase the spring tension that is exherted on the extractor. Helps to keep the extractor from slipping off the cartridge rim while extracting the casing from the chamber. It's to enhance reliability during the extraction process.

I find that using a good quality 5 coil Helical spring like the ones EAG sells or what you get from Paul at Bravo Company USA work great and do not require the need for either.

The GI issue level 10 Operators manual calls for the drop or two of oil in the carrier key.
This is mostly for corrosion resistance as Mil weapons tend to be stored for long periods of time between use.
I rarely squirt anything down my gas key or gas tube. 50.000PSI of gas tends to blow out anything that you may find (or squirt)in your gas tube....

Originally Posted By Another-Bill: We've all read the reports that if you don't shoot a Colt (I own a few) that your rifle will probably fail due to something or the other breaking in a 2 or 3 day course. Got me to wondering, is it some common breakage like the bolt, or some small pin. If so, is it the lower or upper that is more of the problem? So what if you have a Colt lower with a Stag LPK in it? Or a Bushmaster upper with a Colt (non-M4) barrel and Colt bolt ok? I have shot more cases of .223 than I can remember through my 5 Bushmasters and 2 Colts, with most all of it through only 2 of the guns (1 Bushy the most and 1 Colt), with no breakages. Just wondering. Bill

BAHAHAHA




colt is the militarys suplier...period.  they are by far not the best in the market.  

Here is what they are saying....do you want to fail...then dont use what I like.  

or

to make sure dont fail...use this.


my wife used to tell me if I sing happy birthday to her car, it would always start on the first turn of the key.  do you know what...it always started...I guess she was right.