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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:02:32 AM EDT
[#1]
I am a dumb trigger puller and not a tester- labs need to do that. I can make comments based on observations, but the biggest problem with that is i have no idea what people actually are using inside of their gun. Nor do i (or they) have much of a clue as to how many rounds downrange. Parts are not parts, and what goes into Brand X on today's build may not be what they use on Tuesday. Therefore, absent those who build to the standard of the TDP, i don't know the quality of the parts being used. Do springs wear? Yup. Does a harsh firing schedule make parts wear faster Yup. The labs know this. Do high rates of fire cause bolts to break? Good question. I know from M4A1 use that a harsh firing schedule will mean bolt lugs will break sooner then later. Having said that, aftermarket hobby gun parts (bolts that are not shot peened and MPI) may break at the cam pin hole much sooner then that. I have seen hobby bolts break in less then 500 rounds. I have also seen them break at 10,000 rounds. At about what point would carbon build-up cause malfunctions? Beats me. Too many variables. I don't clean my work guns very often, and when i do, not much time is spent doing it. I do keep the guns wet. I have guns go regularly with 3k rounds between cleaning, but have gone over 5k rounds without problems- as long as the guns were wet. Understand these are training guns, not operational. I use Colt, LMT Noveske, Larue and BCM uppers. I use BCM and PMAG magazines. I use good ammunition. I keep the gun heavily lubed. And i have a maintenance schedule that i adhere to. I don't have many malfunctions on my guns. Sorry i can't be more specific. I can only state what i see. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:13:26 AM EDT
[#2]
I just bought 2 of Denny's BCM Bolt groups with the ION bonded finish. The non ION bonded finish is $135. From Denny's site: SHOT PEENED AND MPI TESTED BOLT SHOT PEENED AND MPI TESTED EXTRACTOR ALL MAJOR COMPONENTS INCLUDING THE GAS KEY ARE ROCKWELL TESTED EACH BOLT IS TEST FIRED PRIOR TO MPI TESTING. EXTRA POWER CHROME SILICON ESTRACTOR SPRING BLACK BUMPER PROPERLY SIDE STAKED GAS KEYS SECURED WITH GRADE 8 ALLEN SCREWS MILSPEC FINISH APPLIED AT BCM A CRANE O RING IS SUPPLIED WITH EACH BCM BCG SHOULD YOU DESIRE TO USE IT No statistical testing here either. Each bolt is test fired prior to the MPI inspection. At only $135 each it is a bargain. Better quality than even Colt at a much better price. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:20:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Pat_Rogers]
[#3]
as far as bolt breakage goes, for anyone else. What brands are more or less prone to it? I'm working on 2 builds right now and don't have the bcgs yet.
Aftermarket makers cut corners to keep price down. I have never seen a Colt bolt break at the cam pin hole. I have a picture book full of broken bolts from the makers who do not build to the standard. I use Colt, LMT and BCM. Denny's bolt looks terrific but i haven't seen one yet. Your money- your choice. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:29:35 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:31:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 444]
[#5]
I have taken:
Gunsite Basic Carbine (223) which is a five day course Gunsite Advanced Carbine (556) which is a five day course (Pat Rogers, Rangemaster) Frontsight Practial Rifle which is a four day course and Frontsight Practical Rifle Skillbuilder which is a two day course which I have taken six times. I used basically the same Bushmaster carbine in all of them. Some of the goodies on the gun, mainly the sights, changed to numerous configurations but the same basic gun was used in all of them and never had a problem. This gun was also shot pretty extensively in practice. Most of those classes and the vast majority of the ammo ever fired through the gun were Wolf with the laquered cases. In those classes I saw a few guns go down, but not that many. Point to all this: I think the incidence of failure is pretty low. I was surprised after all the internet stuff I have read to see that most guns have very few problems. At least two of the parts failures I saw were just simply worn out guns: one military, and one a Gunsite school gun. No earth shaking news here. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:56:13 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 1/27/2008 11:26:15 AM EDT
[#7]
I have had classes with no gun issues, and i have had other classes with 20+ students where almost everyone has problems.
I am seeing less problems now as most coming to my open classes have read the AAR's and are buying and doing things smarter. Of course, seeing things from behind the line is different from being on the line.  How about 28 brand new after market guns that were all bad? How about 7 brand new after market guns that were all bad? The reality is that the design is sound. Many makers buy parts from different suppliers and the result (my belief) is that on some runs you may get good parts, and others may not. I don't aspire to mediocrity, so i'll opt for stuff made to a standard. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 1:44:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ar15inmn]
[#8]
Pat, any chance on expanding on the maintenance schedule? Do you have a recommended interval for replacement of the springs, bolts, etc.? Thanks for your time.   Edited to add: Reading some of your information I have learned that: "Bolt locking lugs generally have detectable cracks by 5000 to 10,000 rounds and may break at some point between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds". Extractor springs may wear out early (around 5k) but the extractor itself seldom (relatively speaking) breaks. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 3:03:24 PM EDT
[#9]
+1 Inquiring minds with their first carbine wish to know. ZM |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2008 4:13:16 PM EDT
[#10]
 +1 For complete spare bolt.  From my personal experience it's not just a question IF a bolt will fail but exactly WHEN.  And it's a well documented problem that effects the "platform" not just casual "hobby" guns. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 4:18:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Who made that Bolt? Approx how many rounds? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2008 4:57:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: drshame]
[#12]
Bolt maker unknown.
 Probably broke at about 4000 rounds max +/- 1500 rounds in a Carbine used with mil-spec ammo. Metallurgist told me the fracture ridges were "classic". Sent it to him for a real metallurgical evaluation and I think he got scared by possible "liability" issues and never got back to me.  MORE importantly, that NAVSEA document validates it's a critical platform failure point. Don't know if Military Armorers require round counts to mandate replacing bolts when they get near an estimated failure point. As the point is made on the street "Shit Happens". Fortunately for me..it didn't happen at the worst possible time during a critical mission that could have made a difference between my life or death. For anyone in "The Sandbox"...I'd hope someone keeps track of rounds and replaces bolts BEFORE they fail...that would be my tax dollars being well spent! |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 5:28:40 PM EDT
[#13]
Some good info in this thread.
Thanks all 
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Posted: 1/27/2008 5:34:45 PM EDT
[#14]
At what round count to most people replace the bolt?
Bucky145 |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 5:43:29 PM EDT
[#15]
OST
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USA
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Posted: 1/27/2008 5:54:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Weldingrod]
[#16]
I don't know much about ARs, but working in the metal trades have seen my share of metal failure.
Looking at that bolt, it seems to me that a critical aspect of the likely longevity of the bolt (at that location) would be the specific radius and its quality, or lack thereof, applied around the inside edges at the top and bottom of cam pin hole. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:04:24 PM EDT
[#17]
SLIP2000 EWL -- A Great CLP
Maybe a bit more emphaiss on the "L", but a great CLP nonetheless. SLIPs Carbon Cutter and Degreaser are great dedicated cleaners by themselves, but you definitely need to lube afterwards. A lubed gun is a happy gun that runs better. And parts that are well lubed have less stresses put on them. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:09:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pat_Rogers]
[#18]
drshame,
That is absolutely correct, and i referenced that on another thread today. My experience is that mil bolts will generally fracture at the locking lugs, while non MPI bolts will crack at the cam pin hole. Everything that is used is subject to failure. The more you use it, the more likely it will fail. User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote Edit Report Crane has stated that visual inspections are insufficient. USMC PWS has stated that the RAS/RIS, as it is nor FF, may add to the problem as the barrel may "droop" causing the bolt to batter the bbl extension. I have no idea if this is/ isn't a factor. We have seen bolt lugs crack at appx the 10k mark, and the SOPMOD ST 23-31-1 Annex F Para a sub 4 states that "Bolt locking lugs generally have detactable cracks by 5000 to 10,000 rounds and may break at some point between 10,000 and 20,000 rounds". However, that is a 1999 pub, so take it FWIW. Extractor springs may wear out early (around 5k) but the extractor itself seldom (relatively speaking) breaks. Posted :: 1/27/2008 1:43:40 PM EST |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:21:40 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:23:16 PM EDT
[#20]
great thread, and thanks for the info........
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:41:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thedoctors308]
[#21]
...
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Posted: 1/27/2008 6:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: thedoctors308]
[#22]
...
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Posted: 1/27/2008 7:23:37 PM EDT
[#23]
I used to try to keep records, but it was difficult and time consuming for students (and us) to get it all down on paper.
Also, so many mix and match parts that the genesis of any gun is difficult to ascertain. Appx 70% are Colt with some FN's. BM LMT The rest are a bunch of Noveske, LWRC, Defensive Edge, S&W and others that are mainly single digit articles. Most guns run well if not past the end of their service life. The hobby guns will have more problems with extractors, bolts, springs, and small parts breakage. I don't spend a lot of time looking at guns at class, other then to make sure the students are using them correctly> I don't care what they bring as long as it is serviceable. Some aren't. My company uses Colt LMT Noveske S&W (3 T&E) Defensive Edge Laure uppers BCM uppers and finally, 3 LWRC on T&E |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 7:34:09 PM EDT
[#24]
+1 for Slip2k EWL
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Posted: 1/27/2008 7:38:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Re maintenance schedule. That is internal, and what works for me may not for you.
There are too many issues for me to deal with now, and having several hundred people whinging about "but he said" nonsense that i'll pass on it. Sorry. Contact your manufacturer and see what they say |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 9:04:59 PM EDT
[#26]
You can easily find out a maintainance schedule that works for you.
Get out and practice. In the process you will find out what keeps your gun running. You will find out how long parts last and which ones fail. You will find out what ammo runs and what ammo doesn't run. You will find out what magazines work and which ones don't. And magically, you become your own expert. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 9:13:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ar15inmn]
[#27]
I agree with part of this. Yes you will find what works for you, however on my duty rifles I will replace every part on a maintenance schedule before it breaks. If someone with Pat's experience tells me critical information such as typical life expectancy of certain parts I'm all for it. It looks like I should change my Colt bolt carrier groups after 10K, extractor springs at 5K and bolts rings at ?????? And I will also add, the 5 or 6K that I get a chance to send down my rifles each year is a drop in the bucket compared to what guys like Pat and Sully see. I try to learn as much as I can from these creditable resources. |
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MA, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2008 9:53:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Anything can and will break when least expected..thanks Murphy
 solution when going to a class..take a spare identical or nearly identical carbine for a back up.Any part that needs oiling and moves will have to be replaced at some time except maybe carriers,even some parts that dont move like carrier keys and gas tubes.Keep spares on hand.
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:03:26 PM EDT
[#29]
I did the Urban Rifle course at Thunder Ranch last March, the only problem I ran into was, at the end of the first day, between all the shooting and the rifle being soaking wet from the slushy snow I was getting failures to feed.
I popped the bolt carrier out and disassembled it - that's when I found the problem, the bolt and inside of the carrier was really gummed up. I cleaned it and it ran flawlessly the rest of the course. Before then I focused my cleaning efforts on the bore, inside of the upper reciever, trigger group and bolt exterior... after that, I clean the inside of the bolt. Also... I picked up one of the enhanced bolt and carrier groups. That may or may not make a difference, the rifle was reliable before and it's reliable now... not 100% sure that the gain was worth the price, but I suppose details that are normally transparent may be the things that give advantage in less than ideal conditions. As far as breakage, I didn't see anything break on any of the carbines in the course I was in. |
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Posted: 1/27/2008 10:34:24 PM EDT
[#30]
The chamber will not decrease in size if it gets hot. It will increase on both the outter and inner dimensions of the chamber. If you take a metal washer and heat it up a lot, the outer and inner radius will both expand in size. It doesn't make "common sense" but thats how it works. My guess for the more difficult extraction is the expansion allows stuff to build up in the chamber making the surface a bit more gritty. Just trying to keep false info from getting passed along here as far as materials science/physics goes. |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 6:33:10 AM EDT
[#31]
My thanks to Pat_Rodgers and yes this is a tag.
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Posted: 1/28/2008 7:10:06 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks- but there is no "D" in my name...
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Posted: 1/28/2008 7:38:33 AM EDT
[#33]
....and I noticed your a team member now. 
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Posted: 1/28/2008 7:47:41 AM EDT
[#34]
I condiser myself to be very lucky that this bolt has lasted for over 20k rounds. I am actually up to 23k on this Bushy bolt.
each time I use this rifle I clean the bolt and look it over carefully to see if there are any cracks. It just proves that everything is hit and miss. mine lasted this long, somebody else will have one crack at 400 rounds. these pictures were taken at 20k rounds  
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Posted: 1/28/2008 7:59:42 AM EDT
[#35]
CB1- thanks for sharing those images and words.
I agree completely. I had several BM in the day that went the distance as well. I still have two BM rental uppers that have 20k through them and still shoot to acceptable accuracy and excellent reliability. They are being phased out as part of the maintenance sched now. There are so many variables concerned here that it is difficult to comprehend, but my advce has alway been to buy a gun (or 3). Buy the best you can, but get something. Get ammo, get training and enjoy it. I have preferences, but that hey, Denny Hansen had an Oly that had 80K documented rounds downrange when it was destroyed in a house fire. I had him in several classes where we but some of those rounds through the pipe. Not my first choice, but it served him well. Re the Team Thing. I didn't do that. But whomever did, Thank You. |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 8:16:02 AM EDT
[#36]
I'd buy tone of those worn out BMs from ya....if you signed it ...or auction them off for a good cause might be a plan You do realize that you have something of a "celebrity status" in the shooting world...right?  Them thar signed ARs would bring in a bit. $$$....and no problemo...
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Posted: 1/28/2008 8:21:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Pat_Rogers]
[#37]
Sorry, i don't see things quite the same way.
When they are replaced, one will be a demo (blue= inert) gun, and the other in the trash. Copy
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Posted: 1/28/2008 8:43:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M4builder]
[#38]
Did a carbine course for my department in NE Colorado once, Hot-dry-windy/sandy day, 1500 rds in about 12 hrs. I had a Colt, a couple others did too, some used my Bushys, and there were DPMS, One guy had an Armalite, and one guy brought an Oly (he bought it for the 'neat crest' in the roll-mark)
The for the most part things went well for everyone (we all shot CLP in the BCG every couple hundred rounds), one DPMS somehow dropped it's firing pin and ended up locked up, the Oly broke it's bolt like in the pictures above. There were some bad mag issues (don't buy a bunch of low-buck-specials for a class), some failures to feed/extract...oil fixed that problem. A soak-down with CLP, then a blast-off with brake cleaner isn't a bad idea at a break either. Scrub your chamber whenever you get a chance. I probably go too far in prepping my ARs. I do all kinds of crap that I think improves reliability (or maybe not  ). Polished chambers, polished feed ramps, rounding the ends of the carrier's glide rails ect...ect.
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Posted: 1/28/2008 9:02:18 AM EDT
[#39]
You have waaaay too much time on your hands....
I have seen firing pins fall out before. All because the Firing Pin Retaining Pin broke. Colt has a run of BC where that hole was off a few thou (allegedly). If guys would start with a gun that was reasonably clean, well lubed and used good mags/ ammo, 90% of the problems would evaporate... Hey- KS is near OK, right (hard for me to tell about the flatlands, no geo points..) We are doing a class near OK City later this year. |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 9:09:19 AM EDT
[#40]
... Good stuff in this thread
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Posted: 1/28/2008 9:49:52 AM EDT
[#41]
very good info. thanks for having a presence here, Pat.
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Posted: 1/28/2008 9:58:00 AM EDT
[#42]
I've been considering buying a Colt or LMT bolt for my rifle and an extractor O ring.
Any lower receiver parts that fail often? I have a Stag lower with DPMS FCG and thus far they have not let me down. |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 10:27:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Start with good parts, good ammo, keep it wet, practice and train. Clean as necessary, but lube is critical. Got it.
Thank you Pat and everyone else. I have started with two Bushmasters, as parts wear out or fail I replace from the manufacturers listed. I do keep a BM repair kit in my bag. I have been using BF CLP for about 20 years and I also have some Gun Butter I am now using. Pat, I hope to attend a class soon, I guess I fall into the "hobbyist" group as I don't pull a trigger for a living, but I still like to train, learn more skills, and remain proficient. I found your thoughts on cleaning very enlightening, I learned to clean my weapons from an old Gunner's Mate "take it apart, hose it down, let er sit, wipe it down and put it back together. Inspect as your cleaning and there should be no extra parts when yer done" This has been one of the better threads. Thanks again R/ Mike VA Beach |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 10:47:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: M4builder]
[#44]
E-mail me sometime on how to get into that class, if you have time to do it. I'm in Wichita, straight North of OKC. ETA/ Found it...EAG |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 11:06:57 AM EDT
[#45]
I have been through many carbine classes. My RR carbine is factory stock. 6000+ rounds at training classes, and NO failures of any kind attributed to the rifle. No failures of any rifle component. Recently purchased a Noveske N4 carbine upper. Probably about 500 rounds through it (have only used it at the range for zeroing and a one day class). Zero failures to date, but it is not really enen broken in yet. |
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Posted: 1/28/2008 11:17:49 AM EDT
[#46]
Go straight to my W/S- it is on the course schedule.
Hope to see you there! |
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ME, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2008 11:20:22 AM EDT
[#47]
i have a 11.5" SBR that's been built nearly entirely from "take-off" and replaced parts from other guns. the only part that was new when it went together was the upper since i didn't have a spare C7-type upper laying around. anyhow, i estimated that of all the use parts that went into this gun, few parts had any less then 5K on them already... i run this gun just about every time i get out to see how long it'll go, and what goes first. 15-20K so far, and i haven't had so much as a hiccup from it. as mr. rogers said above, the system is a good one. as long as it is reasonably clean and lubed, you'll rid yourself of 90% of the problems that are "common". |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2008 11:32:58 AM EDT
[#48]
I just bought a Stag 15L and i was wondering if you've had any experience with these. How do they hold up and such? Especially because i can only buy my bolt from one company... for $160
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2008 11:43:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mr_h]
[#49]
a couple of issues i have had that were not included here......
i had a trigger spring that started to get weak and would cause a failure to fire on radway green ammo. i've had bushmaster ejector springs wear out in my uppers that i run suppressors on. not sure if its the increase in heat or the increased chamber crude but either way, i found myself changing 2 of these in different uppers last year after only being into cans for the last 2 years. tha tis after shooting AR's for the last 17 years. i guess i need to shoot more. LOL needless to say i bought some colt ejector springs from SAW at the last SAR show. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/28/2008 12:03:36 PM EDT
[#50]
lol Funny you mentioned that I use all aircraft grade oil and grease on all my guns. Lithium grease works the best that I have found on both my H & K 91, AR-15, and then dip them in the oil. I like that oil and grease because it has damn near no burn off. If you use mobil 1 use a heaver weight than 5 or 10-w-30 it burns off under heavy fire. |
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which was my bad decision).
