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TX, USA
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Posted: 8/2/2009 6:34:53 PM EDT
[#1]
I still have my ALICE gear from the Army in the mid 80s. Its interesting to compare it to the latest and greatest geewhiz high speed gear and see how far we have come.
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WV, USA
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Posted: 8/4/2009 4:42:56 PM EDT
[#2]
BTT
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2009 11:38:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HellioN]
[#3]
Y Suspenders (yuck, looking to get the 'X' suspenders when I get the chance.) with compass pouch, Pouch has a cheap gmrs/frs radio in it. USGI pistol belt 2x single pistol mag pouches, Don't remember who makes them... Think they are HSGI 2x 3 mag M16 pouches, Cut the grenade straps off to get them closer together. Knock off SAW pouch, Want to replace it with a roll up dump pouch like a rolly polly Canteen with pouch & cup Compass pouch with batteries & para cord in it Drop leg holster, IIRC it's also HSGI Thinking about adding a smallish butt pack so I can carry some extra stuff. (like snacks, cleaning kit, matches, ect ect.) It's pretty simple I know, But it works rather well... And it was cheap. I think the 3 HSGI peices cost more than all the ALICE stuff put together. Also have a Med. ALICE ruck. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 8/9/2009 2:36:22 PM EDT
[#4]
get some type of buttpack and you'll be good to go. This shows you dont need $1000 worth of gear when the fight comes.
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/10/2009 8:48:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By HellioN:
http://webpages.charter.net/jmc556/alice00.jpg Y Suspenders (yuck, looking to get the 'X' suspenders when I get the chance.) with compass pouch, Pouch has a cheap gmrs/frs radio in it. USGI pistol belt 2x single pistol mag pouches, Don't remember who makes them... Think they are HSGI 2x 3 mag M16 pouches, Cut the grenade straps off to get them closer together. Knock off SAW pouch, Want to replace it with a roll up dump pouch like a rolly polly Canteen with pouch & cup Compass pouch with batteries & para cord in it Drop leg holster, IIRC it's also HSGI Thinking about adding a smallish butt pack so I can carry some extra stuff. (like snacks, cleaning kit, matches, ect ect.) It's pretty simple I know, But it works rather well... And it was cheap. I think the 3 HSGI peices cost more than all the ALICE stuff put together. Also have a Med. ALICE ruck. Do you veer to the left as you walk? 
Pathfinder |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 8/10/2009 2:34:19 PM EDT
[#6]
It's a fight to not walk in circles.
It has been recommended to me that I either move one of the 3x mag pouches to the right side of the the belt or acquire one, if not two, more for the right side. I understand it's all about balancing the load for long term comfort. I have initially set it up like this as it seems to be natural, Having all the ammo & the dump pouch within easy reach of my support side. I do notice an uneven feeling when I wear it tho... I was hoping that a full canteen would balance it out but I'm starting to think not. Probably will end up getting one or two more mag pouches for the right side to help with the balance. My father has given me what I think is a type 1 LBV, It has no mesh & straight mag pouches. It fits me well enough but I still find it uncomfortable, Are their any tips or tricks for these? And lastly does anyone have a suggestion for a decent butt-pack & a list of "must have" items to put into one? |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/10/2009 3:27:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By HellioN:
It's a fight to not walk in circles. It has been recommended to me that I either move one of the 3x mag pouches to the right side of the the belt or acquire one, if not two, more for the right side. I understand it's all about balancing the load for long term comfort. I have initially set it up like this as it seems to be natural, Having all the ammo & the dump pouch within easy reach of my support side. I do notice an uneven feeling when I wear it tho... I was hoping that a full canteen would balance it out but I'm starting to think not. Probably will end up getting one or two more mag pouches for the right side to help with the balance. My father has given me what I think is a type 1 LBV, It has no mesh & straight mag pouches. It fits me well enough but I still find it uncomfortable, Are their any tips or tricks for these? And lastly does anyone have a suggestion for a decent butt-pack & a list of "must have" items to put into one? Well, I will take the LBV if you really don't like it... Is it camo or OD? As far as the buttpacklist... Basically an MRE, poncho, pair light work gloves, etc..., etc... Pathfinder |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/10/2009 6:05:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Enforcer]
[#8]
wm2519 & raf
thanks for the compliments; raf is correct in that there are limited supplies of genuine alice/molle mil surp.... now is the time to buy. The hellcat for the money is by far the best deal out there....for now. Like all things, it will be eventually be outdated by something cheaper and more plentiful. Comfort is relative.....there is only so much one can do to make the pack easier to carry; ultimately you still have to hump it. I think we are beginning to see the limits of the comfort threshold .... and for now the Hellcat is still one of the more economical alternatives. thanks again for all the great compliments. mort & IN....Hood, Gunny's Surplus $63 + shipping. I bet with a little negotiating you might be able to get it down below $60. Doc_Stranglove the peak one frame was one of the first good mods the alice pack recieved. It was developed by some of the rangers in the 82nd at fort Bragg. It seems the there was a store close to the base that would make the mods w/ the peak frame "General Jacksons" I believe. The coleman series of packs were aquired by Outdoor Research. They make several models using the old "peak frame" as well as several new framed models. Enforcer |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 3:44:00 PM EDT
[#9]
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier.
Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2009 3:59:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Buttpacks do not have to be worn over the butt. I liked mine on my right hip, countered the gasmask on my left just fine. Keep in mind I was issued the LBV-88 and not wearing the y suspenders so my mag pouches were riding on my chest and not on the belt. If I neded more pouches there was room above the gas mask carrier. First aid kit above my ass flanked by canteens.
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Posted: 8/11/2009 4:46:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By rodmini14:
Buttpacks do not have to be worn over the butt. I liked mine on my right hip, countered the gasmask on my left just fine. Keep in mind I was issued the LBV-88 and not wearing the y suspenders so my mag pouches were riding on my chest and not on the belt. If I neded more pouches there was room above the gas mask carrier. First aid kit above my ass flanked by canteens. Yeah, but that's not the way it was intended to be worn, and your way might not have been approved by higher in a lot of units All that aside, how did you anchor the points on the pack originally held by the LBE shoulder harness on your vest? I'm guessing 550 cord or wire ties. Personally, I'd much rather have a small assault pack to dump and not have to cary un-necessary stuff when things got "interesting". YMMV. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2009 4:51:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By rodmini14:
Buttpacks do not have to be worn over the butt. I liked mine on my right hip, countered the gasmask on my left just fine. Keep in mind I was issued the LBV-88 and not wearing the y suspenders so my mag pouches were riding on my chest and not on the belt. If I neded more pouches there was room above the gas mask carrier. First aid kit above my ass flanked by canteens. Don't let anyone here know where you kept your IFAK... That is where Ikept mine & all the "professionals" here on ARFCOM, said it was stupid to do so for the fact that a first responder couldn't get to it in time... B.S.!!! Anyways, the butt-pack, was never really a "butt-pack" till The late 60's... It infact was the main field pack on the M1956 gear (pre-TA50). It actually strapped over your H-suspenders & clipped about at the shoulder area. It isn't really even a "butt-pack", that is a nickname. It is actually a "pack, field, 1956". Pathfinder |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 4:52:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Yeah! I placed an order with them over a month ago and never heard shit.  I got an order confirm email. At least they didn't charge my card like Botac would have.
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Posted: 8/11/2009 4:59:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. I'm not sure if I'm that strongly against it, but I ditched the buttpack for a smaller SAWish type pouch for the simple reason that you can't easily drive a vehicle with the thing back there. I've gone to running my deuce gear more like they do in BUDS.... Slick on the front with a small butt pouch and the mag pouches out to the sides. I've even gone to the canteen pouches in place of the camelbak. It just makes the whole system simple, and grab and go complete. |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 7:12:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#15]
Originally Posted By Pathfinder1:
Originally Posted By rodmini14:
Buttpacks do not have to be worn over the butt. I liked mine on my right hip, countered the gasmask on my left just fine. Keep in mind I was issued the LBV-88 and not wearing the y suspenders so my mag pouches were riding on my chest and not on the belt. If I neded more pouches there was room above the gas mask carrier. First aid kit above my ass flanked by canteens. Don't let anyone here know where you kept your IFAK... That is where Ikept mine & all the "professionals" here on ARFCOM, said it was stupid to do so for the fact that a first responder couldn't get to it in time... B.S.!!! Anyways, the butt-pack, was never really a "butt-pack" till The late 60's... It infact was the main field pack on the M1956 gear (pre-TA50). It actually strapped over your H-suspenders & clipped about at the shoulder area. It isn't really even a "butt-pack", that is a nickname. It is actually a "pack, field, 1956". Pathfinder Pathfinder is correct, although he omits the fact that an adaptor was needed to mount the "field pack' up top. I have a couple in my collection. Parenthetically, the predecessor to ALICE, the M1967 Modernized Lightweight Load-Carrying Equipment (MLCE) harness had a pair of snap hooks mounted up high to accept the Buttpack. Of course, said hooks interfered greatly with using any other backpack whatsoever.... Back to M-1956 cotton web gear––- Of course, should the need arise, then the "Field Pack" would be mounted on the belt, and the "Sleeping Roll" mounted to the upper back of the user, again using a different, nearly incomprehensible arrangement of strapping, commonly referred to as the "spaghetti straps". I have some of these, also. Altogether a ridiculous arrangement, and requiring far too much effort on the part of a then draftee soldier. Even the Regulars hated them. For those seeking more info, the books by Shelby Stanton are suggested as definitive material. |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 7:44:20 PM EDT
[#16]
I used my buttpack, in the field, as an Infantryman, for a skosh over eight years. I liked it. it wasn't perfect, but it served it's purpose. On patrol in the DMZ I carried a Claymore in it with an e-tool. Better than the claymore in it's case swinging around, and we weren't wearing rucks.
In the woods, without a ruck, it carried a poncho and liner and a stripped MRE or some MRE leftovers, my weapons cleaning kit and part of a towel for same, a pair of socks or two and foot powder. Blessed fot powder....... Saved my bacon more than once, having a bite to eat when circumstance forced us from returning to our rucks or getting resupplied. I did usually go through the trouble of removing the pack and hanging it on the ruck when I wore it. And I would have preferred a day pack that integrated with the ALICE pack. But I didn't have that. I used to keep a bit of 550 cord on it and would sometimes wear it slung like a small haversack. Some guys wore their LBE's low so the buttpack didn't interfere with the ruck. Short folks like me would leave our LBE's open and then let them hang down in the back- but as I said, I'd usually take the two minutes to take it off, time permitting. |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 8:47:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By TimJ:
I used my buttpack, in the field, as an Infantryman, for a skosh over eight years. I liked it. it wasn't perfect, but it served it's purpose. On patrol in the DMZ I carried a Claymore in it with an e-tool. Better than the claymore in it's case swinging around, and we weren't wearing rucks. In the woods, without a ruck, it carried a poncho and liner and a stripped MRE or some MRE leftovers, my weapons cleaning kit and part of a towel for same, a pair of socks or two and foot powder. Blessed fot powder....... Saved my bacon more than once, having a bite to eat when circumstance forced us from returning to our rucks or getting resupplied. I did usually go through the trouble of removing the pack and hanging it on the ruck when I wore it. And I would have preferred a day pack that integrated with the ALICE pack. But I didn't have that. I used to keep a bit of 550 cord on it and would sometimes wear it slung like a small haversack. Some guys wore their LBE's low so the buttpack didn't interfere with the ruck. Short folks like me would leave our LBE's open and then let them hang down in the back- but as I said, I'd usually take the two minutes to take it off, time permitting. Good hearing from you, Tim! Sounds to me like you made do with what you had, but would have wanted something different, if you had your 'druthers. Which is my main point, of course. BTW, maybe time to have another "Meet-and-Greet"? |
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Posted: 8/11/2009 10:26:14 PM EDT
[#18]
I think in the Fall we'll try it again.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2009 10:55:33 PM EDT
[#19]
I may be blind but I haven't seen many holsters in these setups.What do y'all use, just drop legs? Does anyone utilize a regular hip holster on the alice belt, with pictures? I am waiting on my holster to arrive and was just wondering what it may look like and if it can be done without too much crowding. Thanks guys
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Posted: 8/11/2009 11:00:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By stringbean:
I may be blind but I haven't seen many holsters in these setups.What do y'all use, just drop legs? Does anyone utilize a regular hip holster on the alice belt, with pictures? I am waiting on my holster to arrive and was just wondering what it may look like and if it can be done without too much crowding. Thanks guys 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/11/2009 11:42:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Hi!
I'm a new member. I really like your site; it has some of the most practical advise I've seen on military/ survival/ surplus/ camping topics. I'm a retired high school science teacher. Recently, I purchased a Medium Alice pack with the LB-2 frame; it is a great pack. My next step is buy and install the MOLLE upgrade straps and waist belt I've already printed out Enforcer's Hell Cat upgrade instructions. ???Question??? I also want to carry a 2nd Medium Alice pack withOUT a frame in my vehicle, loaded with some emergency supplies for possible earthquakes (I'm in Southern California), or a breakdown in the desert or mountains Will the MOLLE upgrade straps go onto a medium Alice pack, without a packframe? If so, can someone point me towards some instructions as excellent as the Hell Cat upgrade instructions? Thanks Steve 
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Posted: 8/12/2009 12:38:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Funny thing. I know a guy that has access to anything gear wise, pretty much. He's also a GW1 vet, and worked OEF and OIF as a contractor. His field gear for tramping around the woods- LBE. For busting doors and urban stuff he's a dedicated up armored HUMVEE with feet, but for tramping around the woods the LBE drops right over body armor, or can be worn without. It allows a better prone position. You can wear a chest rig under it, so you can drop the LBE and still have 3-8 mags in a chest harness. It's cooler to wear, temp wise, not CDI wise...
I laughed when he showed me his setup, and didn't feel so bad about mine. |
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Posted: 8/12/2009 12:51:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#23]
Originally Posted By SteveHMB1850:
Hi! I'm a new member. I really like your site; it has some of the most practical advise I've seen on military/ survival/ surplus/ camping topics. I'm a retired high school science teacher. Recently, I purchased a Medium Alice pack with the LB-2 frame; it is a great pack. My next step is buy and install the MOLLE upgrade straps and waist belt I've already printed out Enforcer's Hell Cat upgrade instructions. ???Question??? I also want to carry a 2nd Medium Alice pack withOUT a frame in my vehicle, loaded with some emergency supplies for possible earthquakes (I'm in Southern California), or a breakdown in the desert or mountains Will the MOLLE upgrade straps go onto a medium Alice pack, without a packframe? If so, can someone point me towards some instructions as excellent as the Hell Cat upgrade instructions? Thanks Steve I don't think you will be able to adapt the MOLLE shoulder straps to a stand-alone ALICE pack. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, and if so, the rest of this post is of scant interest. AFAIK, the Army issued two types of shoulder straps for the ALICE, the LC-1, and the LC-2. Google LC-1 ALICE straps, click images, and you can see them. Same for LC-2. The LC-1 is OD, and the LC-2 is in woodland camo. As you can see, the LC-2 is preferable, on account of the greater area of padding. It is also less common. The LC-1 can be retrofitted with aftermarket padding, and that seems to work reasonably well. There are also private companies that make all sorts of things that can be retrofitted to the ALICE pack, including very spiffy shoulder pads. Most of them are not much better than the LC-2, or the upgraded LC-1. Tactical Tailor comes to mind as such a mfr/vendor, but there are many others. Unless buying a simple set of pads to upgrade the LC-1 straps, or a set of LC-2 straps, most of the stuff from aftermarket vendors is very nice, but a bit on the pricey side. If you already have a set of LC-1 shoulder straps, the most cost-effective thing is to add some padding and call it a day. Next best is to buy a set of LC-2 straps. Finally, open your wallet and go commercial from a good vendor. Beware cheap, civvy, foreigh knock-offs. Neither the LC-1 nor the LC-2 straps come with a sternum strap, and both will benefit by adding same. You can make your own with some fastex buckles and some nylon webbing, or perhaps buy one from the same vendor that sells you the padding upgrades for your LC-1 straps. Just one thing to remember: without a frame, you will not be able to carry as much weight as with a frame, and since the pack will ride directly on your back, you will feel a bit hotter in warm weather, and your back might sweat in cold weather. Neither is desirable at all. If you are carrying a bare-bones load for relatively short distances, the lack of a frame is not a biggie. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/12/2009 3:17:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Thanks for the advise; this pack replaces an old emergency kit in my trunk, and may never (I hope) get used.
I'm old enough to remember my first canvas BSA pack, so I've carried packs without padding and frames. I've already folded and packed a poncho liner, and blanket, to go next to my back This is going to be a three day bug-out-bag, with an eye towards the emergency situations I am most likely to find myself in, because of where I live, and where I travel. I live near Burbank, CA, so I'm planning for earthquakes and taking precautions for possible breakdowns in off highway (not 4WD) road areas in the Mojave and Sierras I'll take a look at the LC-2 straps. Thanks! |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/14/2009 11:05:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Enforcer]
[#25]
Originally Posted By SteveHMB1850:
Hi! I'm a new member. I really like your site; it has some of the most practical advise I've seen on military/ survival/ surplus/ camping topics. I'm a retired high school science teacher. Recently, I purchased a Medium Alice pack with the LB-2 frame; it is a great pack. My next step is buy and install the MOLLE upgrade straps and waist belt I've already printed out Enforcer's Hell Cat upgrade instructions. ???Question??? I also want to carry a 2nd Medium Alice pack withOUT a frame in my vehicle, loaded with some emergency supplies for possible earthquakes (I'm in Southern California), or a breakdown in the desert or mountains Will the MOLLE upgrade straps go onto a medium Alice pack, without a packframe? If so, can someone point me towards some instructions as excellent as the Hell Cat upgrade instructions? Thanks Steve The molle suspension will attach to a medium alice without frame but not a large alice w/o frame. I wouldn't recommend it due to the fact that there will be alot of loose floppy pads and straps. the better alternative would be to use the LC2 straps as suggested by raf. 
The LC1 straps do not offer the padding and length required by most adults. The following is a modification I used in the Tennessee state guard that would allow me to throw my medium alice over my web gear with heavier loads; keeping the flat shape of the back of my alice pack intact. I also used this mod for my sons when they were in cub scouts; but used the LC1 straps instead(they are shorter and allows them to be taken up further for the smaller stature). I call this modification the "Bobcat" I'll be posting a more detailed version in the "survival gear" thread under "Cheap tricks...." ; it will include the additional mods for "kid users". Framless "Bobcat" ALICE Modification
By Enforcer
One of the problems I used to encounter when using a med ALICE w/o frame was how the pack would become misshapen after loading and then cinching the top if the ruck. 
This was particularly critical when using the pack over the top of my web gear. The pack would roll around and ultimately something hard in the pack would poke me in the back making the carry difficult and sometimes painful. Heavier loads would also tear the D-rings loose making the ruck unusable w/o the frame. The solution I came up with was very simple and completely eliminated the afore mentioned problems and allowed me to carry the frameless/heavy ALICE ruck comfortably over my web gear. Step One: Materials 1ea Med ALICE ruck 1ea 11-11.5" piece of steel tubing(from a broken camp chair.....you know; the folding kind we all use for our kids sporting events and around the camp fire) 1ea Length of 1" tubular webbing about 14-15" 1 pair LC2 shoulder straps 1ea 10"x12" piece of foam padding cut from a USGI sleep pad Assembling the Bobcat Cut your piece of steel tubiing to about 11-11.5" and then file the rough ends. Length isn't as important as getting a snug fit. ( I have edited the length....actual length of my tubes are around 11-11.5") 
Next slip the the steel tube into the 1" webbing letting the ends overlap 
Slip the assembled rod through the bottom of the padded yoke pushing the assembly until it is firmly at the top 
Next, slip the top attachment straps of the LC2's under the tube assembly and through the D-rings 
Cinch the LC2 straps to the top assembly and to the "O" ring attachments at the bottom of the ruck. Your strap/yoke assembly should look like this 
Next, slip the piece of sleep pad into the radio pouch............ 
and your Bobcat is ready for action over your web gear. 
Hope this helps; Happy humping. Enforcer |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 2:14:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 7:54:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer  THIS
I can't believe someone on here actually thinks rationally & KNOWS that in a SHTF scenario or even just plain old "real life" (in other words a weekend camping, away from the wife & kids, just hangin' out with the guys) situation that we aren't going to be getting in & out of HUMMVEE's. Let the military do that. I figured out that I was too old to "play Army" the day I got out. Hell, even I forgot there is no such thing as "infantry" anymore... fuckin' lazy ass kids these days  I could still probably kick all their ass'... Well maybe about 3/4 of them .
Pathfinder |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 2:28:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer I had a nice response posted, and it went away somewhere. Suffice it to say, you and I agree on the ultimate ends, but friends can disagree on means, as long as that does not get in the way of the end goal.. Possibly I have something to add to the ALICE system, while not so brilliant as your Hellcat mod, it might still worth considering. I will re-post here, later. |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 2:34:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By Pathfinder1:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer THIS
I can't believe someone on here actually thinks rationally & KNOWS that in a SHTF scenario or even just plain old "real life" (in other words a weekend camping, away from the wife & kids, just hangin' out with the guys) situation that we aren't going to be getting in & out of HUMMVEE's. Let the military do that. I figured out that I was too old to "play Army" the day I got out. Hell, even I forgot there is no such thing as "infantry" anymore... fuckin' lazy ass kids these days I could still probably kick all their ass'... Well maybe about 3/4 of them .
Pathfinder Take it easy, tiger. We're all about modding the gear so's to make it better for our purposes. Stay tuned, and maybe you'll like my ideas. Maybe not. That's cool, too. |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 2:46:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#30]
allright, let's try this again
First step is to convert your ALICE pack to using dual side-release buckles to close and cinch the top flap. The only cutting you will need to do is cut the end-roll off the standing strap (one from the top of the pack), or cut the stitches holding it together. Flatten it out using heat from a cig lighter. Install the lower dual buckle using a length of 1' strap thrreaded theu the lower OEM metal buckle, and back-threaded thru the plastic SR buckle. That assy will never come loose unless you make it happen intentionally. Install the upper dual SR buckle in the upper, standing strap, once you've dealt with the roll-over at the very end. Your ALICE pack is now updated. If something should malf with a plastic buckle, yoiu can revert to the OEM system easily enough, since the new stuff isn't stitched-in. Just unthread the lower, plastic SR buckle, and thread the strap thru the pre-existing OEM metal buckle. NOTE: this only works with DUAL side-release buckles, as the Mfr calls them. These buckles are capaple of being cinched down on either end, and don't require being sewn-in. ITW NEXUS is the MFR, so google them, and observe. Stand by for step 2. Simple, no? |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 3:46:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#31]
OK, now you have your ALICE pack straps updated.
Note that there is a lot of space betwen the new,plastic buckles that ride on the standing, flap straps and the bottom buckles. Shame to waste that, no? What you need is a small pack to which to attach the same style QR buckles to, both top and botom, so it will fit in and be captured by the pre-existing QR buckles on the ALICE pack Now, you might need to sew the buckles into your pack, or maybe the pack will accept the buckles. Might even be that a 'field-expedient" buckle will attach. You can make "field-expedient" buckles easy enough. Point is that you now have a small, assault pack strapped to the back of your ALICE. This pack must have integral shoulder straps. to be useful. If you doff your main pack, unclip the assault pack and drive on. if you need to ditch the assault pack, no biggie. Now, if you all look carefully under the existing web straps on the pockets, the ones with male snaps, you will find that there is enough room to run a 1" compression strap around the pack, anchored by the tunnels under the pocket straps. Such a strap will anchor an assault pack onto the ALICE, and also be useful even if the assault pack is absent. For a view of this, google old-style CFP-90 packs, which had the Patrol Pack attached to the back of the main pack, intsead of the top, where the added height interfered with shooting prone. This is also the same concept adopted by the MOLLE and newer Marine Corps systems. I'm 6'3" and the ALICE harness doesn't give me room to wear a buttpack AND a backpack with a waistbelt. NOT an option. That said, and if you all think on it a bit, you might find my system a bit of an advantage over the buttpack. I sure do, and now that I've used it a bit, I'm just as comfortable with my system as with the Hellcat mods. Tell the truth, I think they go together in really updating ALICE. Try it out before condemning it, that's all I ask. I'll bet all but the most hide-bound old-timer will like my system, as long as it's given a fair shake. I've converted a mumber of packs, some of them ALICE, and some more modern, ,to this system, and I haven't found a significant drawback yet. Mebbe a few plusses compared to the old buttpack system. Like I said, the buttpack is the debbil. What I didn't reveal at that point is my substitute. Now that you've been introduced, so to speak, see if you all like each other. It's been a happy marriage for me. Best of luck to all of you. Try it––-You'll like it.......... |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 4:25:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Originally Posted By raf:
OK, now you have your ALICE pack straps updated. Note that there is a lot of space betwen the new,plastic buckles that ride on the standing, flap straps and the bottom buckles. Shame to waste that, no? What you need is a small pack to which to attach the same style QR buckles to, both top and botom, so it will fit in and be captured by the pre-existing QR buckles on the ALICE pack Now, you might need to sew the buckles into your pack, or maybe the pack will accept the buckles. Might even be that a 'field-expedient" buckle will attach. You can make "field-expedient" buckles easy enough. Point is that you now have a small, assault pack strapped to the back of your ALICE. This pack must have integral shoulder straps. to be useful. If you doff your main pack, unclip the assault pack and drive on. if you need to ditch the assault pack, no biggie. Now, if you all look carefully under the existing web straps on the pockets, the ones with male snaps, you will find that there is enough room to run a 1" compression strap around the pack, anchored by the tunnels under the pocket straps. Such a strap will anchor an assault pack onto the ALICE, and also be useful even if the assault pack is absent. For a view of this, google old-style CFP-90 packs, which had the Patrol Pack attached to the back of the main pack, intsead of the top, where the added height interfered with shooting prone. This is also the same concept adopted by the MOLLE and newer Marine Corps systems. I'm 6'3" and the ALICE harness doesn't give me room to wear a buttpack AND a backpack with a waistbelt. NOT an option. That said, and if you all think on it a bit, you might find my system a bit of an advantage over the buttpack. I sure do, and now that I've used it a bit, I'm just as comfortable with my system as with the Hellcat mods. Tell the truth, I think they go together in really updating ALICE. Try it out before condemning it, that's all I ask. I'll bet all but the most hide-bound old-timer will like my system, as long as it's given a fair shake. I've converted a mumber of packs, some of them ALICE, and some more modern, ,to this system, and I haven't found a significant drawback yet. Mebbe a few plusses compared to the old buttpack system. Like I said, the buttpack is the debbil. What I didn't reveal at that point is my substitute. Now that you've been introduced, so to speak, see if you all like each other. It's been a happy marriage for me. Best of luck to all of you. Try it––-You'll like it.......... raf, Wasn't trying to slam your disliking of the "butt pack"; You got me to thinking and I just began to ramble a bit. alls cool. Your above idea seems to be a good one. I was contemplating the incorporation of a small pack several months ago and never considered using the cinch straps in the manner in which you described. I think the MOLLE training pack would be a nice addition to the Hellcat. I'll have to put the hairtop computer on it and maybe give it a try |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 6:23:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#33]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
OK, now you have your ALICE pack straps updated. Note that there is a lot of space betwen the new,plastic buckles that ride on the standing, flap straps and the bottom buckles. Shame to waste that, no? What you need is a small pack to which to attach the same style QR buckles to, both top and botom, so it will fit in and be captured by the pre-existing QR buckles on the ALICE pack Now, you might need to sew the buckles into your pack, or maybe the pack will accept the buckles. Might even be that a 'field-expedient" buckle will attach. You can make "field-expedient" buckles easy enough. Point is that you now have a small, assault pack strapped to the back of your ALICE. This pack must have integral shoulder straps. to be useful. If you doff your main pack, unclip the assault pack and drive on. if you need to ditch the assault pack, no biggie. Now, if you all look carefully under the existing web straps on the pockets, the ones with male snaps, you will find that there is enough room to run a 1" compression strap around the pack, anchored by the tunnels under the pocket straps. Such a strap will anchor an assault pack onto the ALICE, and also be useful even if the assault pack is absent. For a view of this, google old-style CFP-90 packs, which had the Patrol Pack attached to the back of the main pack, intsead of the top, where the added height interfered with shooting prone. This is also the same concept adopted by the MOLLE and newer Marine Corps systems. I'm 6'3" and the ALICE harness doesn't give me room to wear a buttpack AND a backpack with a waistbelt. NOT an option. That said, and if you all think on it a bit, you might find my system a bit of an advantage over the buttpack. I sure do, and now that I've used it a bit, I'm just as comfortable with my system as with the Hellcat mods. Tell the truth, I think they go together in really updating ALICE. Try it out before condemning it, that's all I ask. I'll bet all but the most hide-bound old-timer will like my system, as long as it's given a fair shake. I've converted a mumber of packs, some of them ALICE, and some more modern, ,to this system, and I haven't found a significant drawback yet. Mebbe a few plusses compared to the old buttpack system. Like I said, the buttpack is the debbil. What I didn't reveal at that point is my substitute. Now that you've been introduced, so to speak, see if you all like each other. It's been a happy marriage for me. Best of luck to all of you. Try it––-You'll like it.......... raf, Wasn't trying to slam your disliking of the "butt pack"; You got me to thinking and I just began to ramble a bit. alls cool. Your above idea seems to be a good one. I was contemplating the incorporation of a small pack several months ago and never considered using the cinch straps in the manner in which you described. I think the MOLLE training pack would be a nice addition to the Hellcat. I'll have to put the hairtop computer on it and maybe give it a try The whole point of this thread is to get people to THINK. My point of view be damned, if a few folks THINK, then the thread has served its' purpose. Hopefully the result of "X' number of folks thinking might produce something useful, but the act of thinking is useful in itself. If I understand you correcly, what you call the MOLLE training pack is something of a buttpack. Of course, that could easily be attached to the ALICE as described. If that meets your needs, then drive on. As far as I can see, a MOLLE 3-day /Assault pack will fit on he back of an ALICE. Much larger than any buttpack, but maybe that's what someone needs.... You can always cinch them down, but making the bags bigger is tough. if your needs exceed the MOLLE training/butt pack, then select something a bit bigger. As you can see, there are definitely options as to size, up to a point. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 7:00:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Enforcer]
[#34]
raf,
thanks for the input; I agree w/ you 100% . My whole point in posting my mods is to share new ideas and to help others think outside the box. In turn it stimulates others to be creative; we ithen reap the benefits of new and fresh ideas. Speaking of new ideas; did you see my "Bobcat" mod to the medium alice at the bottom of page 11 ? it solves alot of failures w/ the med alice w/o frame. Enforcer |
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Posted: 8/15/2009 7:32:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
raf, thanks for the input; I agree w/ you 100% . My whole point in posting my mods is to share new ideas and to help others think outside the box. In turn it stimulates others to be creative; we ithen reap the benefits of new and fresh ideas. Speaking of new ideas; did you see my "Bobcat" mod to the medium alice at the bottom of page 11 ? it solves alot of failures w/ the med alice w/o frame. Enforcer Yes, I did, and I'm going to make good use of your basic Idea. What I will do is obtain some aluminum tubing, paint the center section OD, and either cap the ends or plug the ends with some neoprene plugs. The hollow nylon is somewhat hard to get, and unless the ends of the tubing are capped with round-shouldered caps, or the neoprene plugs extend beyond the metal tubing, wear could still occur over time. In a pinch, most folks could simply chamfer the outsides of the ends of the tube, and wrap same with a few layers of duct tape. Not like that part of the tube will ever see daylight again. Overall, an excellent idea. Congrats! |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 8:16:19 PM EDT
[#36]
I've been contemplating the ALICE vs. WAR BELT set up for a couple of weeks. AND I have read the threads on both and decided to do an ALICE set up and came up with a couple of questions.
1) I can use the original ALICE rifle mag pouches on it, but I'd like to put on modern pistol ammo pouches and all of them seem to use MOLLE or MALICE attachment. Will these work on the traditional USGI ALICE pistol belt. 2) Where is a good site or vendor to get good ALICE gear from. I've scoured the web and most of them have it in bits and pieces. I'd like to get a set up from one person. Thank you for your input! 
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WI, USA
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Posted: 8/15/2009 11:17:12 PM EDT
[#37]
MOLLE will still work. All that is different is that the attachments will be like large belt loops and may not lock down as tight as MOLLE and PALS.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/16/2009 9:16:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Enforcer]
[#38]
Originally Posted By Bandit395:
I've been contemplating the ALICE vs. WAR BELT set up for a couple of weeks. AND I have read the threads on both and decided to do an ALICE set up and came up with a couple of questions. 1) I can use the original ALICE rifle mag pouches on it, but I'd like to put on modern pistol ammo pouches and all of them seem to use MOLLE or MALICE attachment. Will these work on the traditional USGI ALICE pistol belt. 2) Where is a good site or vendor to get good ALICE gear from. I've scoured the web and most of them have it in bits and pieces. I'd like to get a set up from one person. Thank you for your input! Try these sites for a better than average selection of alice gear. US Cavalry Brigade Quartermasters Gunnys Surplus call this guy.....he has alot of stuff not listed on his web site. he'll probably be able to get you anything you are looking for. IMS Surplus Army Surplus for less RDD USA Army Navy Sales raf, You are very perceptive; and I can tell you have a great deal of experience with all things ALICE. My first attempt at this mod caused some excessive wear at the contact point between the steel tube and the upper corner of the padded yoke. Even though I had filed; smoothed and buffed the end; it still wore a small hole thru the the nylon material of the yoke. I thought about duct tape or capping the end; however, I had several yards of the web tubing and once it was slipped over the tube it gave the mod a very clean finished look. It also gave more grip while using the tube as a grab handle. I have used this version for about 5 years and have not noticed any appreciable wear on mine or my sons "Bobcats". I like the idea of capping the ends and would probably be a little more economical and simpler to aquire; I just never explored it since the webbing has served me well to this point. Be sure to get steel or aluminum tubing that closely matches the tubing diameter of the ALICE frame. Several dads in my troop have used larger tubing and I am afraid they may have wear issues down the road; it also makes pushing the tube into the yoke a little more difficult. Slipping the shoulder straps around the larger diameter is a little tight as well. I just don't think it looks as good either. Enforcer |
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Posted: 8/16/2009 2:57:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Thanks for the kind words, Enforcer. Every now and then I have a decent idea...
As for on-line surplus vendors, check out the above, and The Old Grouch who's a member here: http://store.oldgrouch.biz/index.html You butt-pack devotees might want to check him out, as he has, on sale, no less, the ILBV version of the GI buttpack; the one with fastex closures, Woodland cordura, and which is designed to be compatible with the GI pre-MOLLE Individual Load Bearing Vests (ILBV), either straight-pocket version, or enhanced, angled-pocket unit. Ever wonder why those big, plastic "D" rings were for on the lower back of the ILBV? They're there to attach this buttpack, that's why. |
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Posted: 8/17/2009 4:21:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By SteveHMB1850:
Hi! I'm a new member. I really like your site; it has some of the most practical advise I've seen on military/ survival/ surplus/ camping topics. I'm a retired high school science teacher. Recently, I purchased a Medium Alice pack with the LB-2 frame; it is a great pack. My next step is buy and install the MOLLE upgrade straps and waist belt I've already printed out Enforcer's Hell Cat upgrade instructions. ???Question??? I also want to carry a 2nd Medium Alice pack withOUT a frame in my vehicle, loaded with some emergency supplies for possible earthquakes (I'm in Southern California), or a breakdown in the desert or mountains Will the MOLLE upgrade straps go onto a medium Alice pack, without a packframe? If so, can someone point me towards some instructions as excellent as the Hell Cat upgrade instructions? Thanks Steve The molle suspension will attach to a medium alice without frame but not a large alice w/o frame. I wouldn't recommend it due to the fact that there will be alot of loose floppy pads and straps. the better alternative would be to use the LC2 straps as suggested by raf. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-ab0.jpg The LC1 straps do not offer the padding and length required by most adults. The following is a modification I used in the Tennessee state guard that would allow me to throw my medium alice over my web gear with heavier loads; keeping the flat shape of the back of my alice pack intact. I also used this mod for my sons when they were in cub scouts; but used the LC1 straps instead(they are shorter and allows them to be taken up further for the smaller stature). I call this modification the "Bobcat" I'll be posting a more detailed version in the "survival gear" thread under "Cheap tricks...." ; it will include the additional mods for "kid users". Framless "Bobcat" ALICE Modification
By Enforcer
One of the problems I used to encounter when using a med ALICE w/o frame was how the pack would become misshapen after loading and then cinching the top if the ruck. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e0.jpg This was particularly critical when using the pack over the top of my web gear. The pack would roll around and ultimately something hard in the pack would poke me in the back making the carry difficult and sometimes painful. Heavier loads would also tear the D-rings loose making the ruck unusable w/o the frame. The solution I came up with was very simple and completely eliminated the afore mentioned problems and allowed me to carry the frameless/heavy ALICE ruck comfortably over my web gear. Step One: Materials 1ea Med ALICE ruck 1ea 9-10" piece of steel tubing(from a broken camp chair.....you know; the folding kind we all use for our kids sporting events and around the camp fire) 1ea Length of 1" tubular webbing about 14-15" 1 pair LC2 shoulder straps 1ea 10"x12" piece of foam padding cut from a USGI sleep pad Assembling the Bobcat Cut your piece of steel tubiing to about 9-10" and then file the rough ends. Length isn't as important as getting a snug fit. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e2.jpg Next slip the the steel tube into the 1" webbing letting the ends overlap http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e4.jpg Slip the assembled rod through the bottom of the padded yoke pushing the assembly until it is firmly at the top http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e5.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e6.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e7.jpg Next, slip the top attachment straps of the LC2's under the tube assembly and through the D-rings http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e8.jpg Cinch the LC2 straps to the top assembly and to the "O" ring attachments at the bottom of the ruck. Your strap/yoke assembly should look like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e9.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e11.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e10.jpg Next, slip the piece of sleep pad into the radio pouch............ http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e12.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-e13.jpg and your Bobcat is ready for action over your web gear. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice-a0.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/caneyforkoutfitters/alice1.jpg Hope this helps; Happy humping. Enforcer Enforcer - that's a great tip, and one I will be using, with one exception - I have two German folding sleep pads (from CTD IIRC) which fold up into the same size but are thicker and can be used as a seat or sleeping pad. I highly recommend them. If a guy didn't have a camp chair to sacrifice, a short scrap of 1/2 EMT conduit could be scavanged from most electrical contractors and not be much heavier. The 1" webbing over it is inspired! I always had the same problem with the medium ALICE with no frame - things stick you in the back. The pad makes a big difference. I also considered modifying one with a padded H Harness - saw a NATO pack set up this way and it looked pretty comfy. I really liked the 'Hellcat' mod of the framed ALICE with the MOLLE straps and belt too. |
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Posted: 8/17/2009 4:50:25 PM EDT
[#41]
My local surplus dealer has standing orders to set aside damaged GI sleeping pads for my possible purchase.
Allows him to sell an otherwise un-vendable item, and my money makes him happy. He, in turn, slides me the occasional discount. Win-Win. For example, the other day I bought a very slightly used Blackhawk ACU vest/belt, for experimental use, along with two GI used ACU 3X1 AR mag shingles. Blackhawk doesn't make quite the same thing anymore, but I figure that for $35 out-the-door I did OK. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/20/2009 3:16:17 AM EDT
[#42]
Thanks Enforcer
Great ideas are like this- simple and elegant I'll look for the "Bob Cat parts this week Steve |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/20/2009 3:43:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Install Fastex hardware on ALICE pack
I am capable of stripping seams and sewing in new Fastex buckles and clips, But I honestly just don't want to spend the time, and do the tedious sewing Sometime in the past, I saw some fastex hardware specially designed to "slip in" and replace broken buckles and clips Some just slid in; they had to be mildly "forced" in Other replacement fastex "reassembled" with locking pins and SuperGlue Any suggestions on where to find some of these? Are they any good? |
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Posted: 8/20/2009 4:27:11 PM EDT
[#44]
I posted the following in your identical thread in Tac Gear forum:http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=10&t=288487&page=1&fc=1#2528673.
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Posted: 8/20/2009 4:40:23 PM EDT
[#45]
Originally Posted By Pathfinder1:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer THIS
I can't believe someone on here actually thinks rationally & KNOWS that in a SHTF scenario or even just plain old "real life" (in other words a weekend camping, away from the wife & kids, just hangin' out with the guys) situation that we aren't going to be getting in & out of HUMMVEE's. Let the military do that. I figured out that I was too old to "play Army" the day I got out. Hell, even I forgot there is no such thing as "infantry" anymore... fuckin' lazy ass kids these days I could still probably kick all their ass'... Well maybe about 3/4 of them .
Pathfinder Dismounting MRAPs or HummVees......no. Dismounting SUV to clear dead fall in the road while egressing from town. Yes. |
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Posted: 8/20/2009 4:47:56 PM EDT
[#46]
If Kim Schlong ill puts my vehicle out of order with an EMP, I'll put the buttpack on and start walking. Otherwise, it's too bulky.
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MI, USA
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Posted: 8/24/2009 9:18:52 AM EDT
[#47]
Originally Posted By stoner63a:
Originally Posted By Pathfinder1:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
Originally Posted By raf:
I have always thought that the buttpack was one of the worst pieces of field equipment ever foisted onto a soldier. Damn near impossible to access without removing your LBE ( a major NO-NO when in contact), unless you have a buddy at hand who has some spare time to help you. Makes riding in a vehicle a difficult/impossible proposition, and heaven help you if you have to exit a top-side hatch real quick while wearing one. Capacity is too small for anything but the shortest duration without re-supply. Wearing a buttpack is very problematic when donning a real. large pack, and requires stopping and reconfiguring one's LBE ensemble to do so. Talk about a PITA. Ranks right up there with the POS field packs worn during WW I and WW II. IMHO anyone contemplating the use of a buttpack should STOP, and think things through. A much better idea would be a mission-oriented, appropriately-sized back-pack that interfaces well with your main pack and the rest of your gear. It's correct that the "butt pack" is difficult when climbing thru "hatches" and other tight spaces( seriously....in a SHTF scenario; how many of us are going to be riding in a HUMVEE; Bradley or Abrams?) . In ww2 and korea and for that matter, VN; soldiers rode in "troop carriers" which were nothing more than trucks w/ a flat bed and a canvas covering. They spent most of the time "walking" thus the nomenclature "infantry". The web gear and butt packs were utilitarian and ideal for lashing "shelter halve's" and "sleeping bag"s too; and were only used for the "essentials" if one got separated or supply was a few days behind. Frame packs for infantry didn't make their appearance until the end and beginning of Korea and Viet Nam. At best they were not widely distributed. They were never intended for patrol; but primarily for deployment. As the demands for infantry grew and rules of engagement changed in the last century; the infantryman and special operator had to be more self sufficient; isolated from civilization and supply. Thus the need for larger capacity; ease of carry; and comfortable/easy transition from deployment to patrol. The solutions are not easy or simple; and no system is perfect for all terrains; climate or situations. However, that being said; I like the older LBE/ALICE system; including the "butt pack" due to it's versatility and low cost. The ALICE web system is ideal for the individual( there is alot of meaning in that one word) here in the USA. The ALICE frame pack fits nicely over the web gear; and can be dropped quickly if under fire; keeping the essentials(butt pack included) on your person. For the average; isolated patriot, wanting to be prepared; I don't believe it can be beat if set up properly. Enforcer THIS
I can't believe someone on here actually thinks rationally & KNOWS that in a SHTF scenario or even just plain old "real life" (in other words a weekend camping, away from the wife & kids, just hangin' out with the guys) situation that we aren't going to be getting in & out of HUMMVEE's. Let the military do that. I figured out that I was too old to "play Army" the day I got out. Hell, even I forgot there is no such thing as "infantry" anymore... fuckin' lazy ass kids these days I could still probably kick all their ass'... Well maybe about 3/4 of them .
Pathfinder Dismounting MRAPs or HummVees......no. Dismounting SUV to clear dead fall in the road while egressing from town. Yes. More than likely, if this were to happen, you would just be "getting out of town". You wouldn't stop to "suit up" till aftert the initial "get out" was completed & you were at a momentary safe hold to gear up & ditch the vehical to dimount on foot as less easily to be tracked & found. 1: Get out of town 2: Find a secure ditching site 3: Gear up & collect necessities 4: Ditch the vehical & foot out to Secure area Pathfinder |
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Posted: 8/24/2009 4:09:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: raf]
[#48]
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
raf, thanks for the input; I agree w/ you 100% . My whole point in posting my mods is to share new ideas and to help others think outside the box. In turn it stimulates others to be creative; we ithen reap the benefits of new and fresh ideas. Speaking of new ideas; did you see my "Bobcat" mod to the medium alice at the bottom of page 11 ? it solves alot of failures w/ the med alice w/o frame. Enforcer Yes, I did, and I'm going to make good use of your basic Idea. What I will do is obtain some aluminum tubing, paint the center section OD, and either cap the ends or plug the ends with some neoprene plugs. The hollow nylon is somewhat hard to get, and unless the ends of the tubing are capped with round-shouldered caps, or the neoprene plugs extend beyond the metal tubing, wear could still occur over time. In a pinch, most folks could simply chamfer the outsides of the ends of the tube, and wrap same with a few layers of duct tape. Not like that part of the tube will ever see daylight again. Overall, an excellent idea. Congrats! Forgive me for quoting myself, but I wanted to keep the thread alive, and had some pertinent info. Went to the hardware store, and found a sweet 1/2 OD aluminum tube that would serve and also accept common and cheap 1/2" ID copper pipe caps which have rounded edges. Unfortunately, the aluminum tube was 8" long and about $15––too much for a single, or even double application. OTOH, if you have a group, then the alumimum is the way to go, as it is plenty stiff for the application, and lighter than copper or steel. Like copper, it will not rust. Soooooooooo, I bought a 2' section of copper water pipe, and cut it with a tubing cutter so's to get a nice, square end. Unfortunately, It was a tad short, and the caps, which overlap the ends of the pipe might come loose. Rummaged around in the spare wood pile, and found a likely wooden trial piece. Kept cutting it until it just fit snug, and then cut the remainder of the pipe to suit. The caps are well-kept, their coming loose is impossible, and wear is not an issue. Note that the pipe is hollow, and thus offers some storage area. HMMMMMM.... What will fit? Well, since the caps will accept o-rings, the storage is both water-tight and air-tight. I'd still tape the caps, though, just to be on the safe side as to the seal. Since it is a minor hassle to remove the tube to access the contents, you obviously don't want to store anything there that must be accessed frequently. What comes to mind are: Long zip ties (especially if your gear ensemble uses such), shoelaces or thin cordage, or maybe a buttload of vaseline-soaked cotton balls. In any case, it might be better to be able to remove both caps so as to poke out the contents. Use your imagination. Again, to preserve air/water integrity of the tube, tape the ends down tight. For that matter, the entire tube can be used to 'store' a fair amount of duct tape wrapped around it. Since the tube is there in the center of the pack, using some 3/4" or 1" webbing to make a carry loop is an easy thing. Much easier on the pack, on the shoulder straps, and on the hand, than carrying the thing by a single shoulder strap, and the loop can be used to hang the thing on a nail or a peg, if desired. I figure a couple of simple buckles and 14" of webbing would do, and as long as you back-thread the webbing through the buckle, it'll never come loose. Trim the webbing length to suit. Enjoy the Mod. It's a great idea, and does wonders for the ALICE. Thanks, Enforcer. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/24/2009 4:26:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Enforcer]
[#49]
raf,
nice!! very well thought out. |
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Posted: 8/24/2009 4:51:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By Enforcer:
raf, nice!! very well thought out. Thank you, I appreciate the compliment. there is still enough ALICE gear out there for folks to get "on board' with your Hellcat Mods and save themselves a pile of money. Any small contribution I can make to help folks put together good, inexpensive kit is a good thing for lots of reasons. BTW, the Euro, OD 1" wide nylon straps sold by sportsmans guide are perfect for add-on staps/compression straps for the ALICE. I don't know if you saw my previous post about the straps.ut they are good stuff, except that the buckles will not mate with most US buckles. No biggie, use 'em for stand-alone applications. Good kit; I bought 2 bunches. |
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