Interesting piece.  Do you have more specs on it?  If the mag pouches don’t fit AR mags, and don’t fit FAL mags well, what are they for? The utility pouches look kinda small.  Could you fill them or advise what they fit?

Is he still around working?
I recall he started a decade ago by modding surplus chicoms and SADF vests and rigs, then jumped into the oldschool replicas bandwagon (i think Darin Talbot at EGL started the whole trend). He made old alice pouches replicas, then classic looking british style chest rigs, south african style lbe, modded  LBVs, russian inspired rigs and such. I think he made some attempt at PLCE style webbing, this look quite recent.

Very cool, I think I remember him doing SADF rigs, but found his Facebook page (wish he just had a regular website)...lot's of interesting kit!


Just found his Facebook page and he posted in September on a new rig...looks to still be active...

ROCK6

I have spoken to the Kennedy Nylon Designs guy several times on facebook. He works night shifts, but his comms are fast.
His gear looks good from the pics and feedback.

This rig is definitely well made.  I don't do FB, but I found Kennedy's info on the public page and sent an email, but never got a reply.

I will get some measurements on the pouches and some pics with mags in the mag pouches when I get a minute.  Hopefully this evening.

That custom rig looks nice and he has mad sewing skills- but imho as someone who has spent more money on belt kit than I will admit-

Try plce and a hippo pad - you can get it used in this country and not get raped in shipping or bend over and order the British stuff.

Jay jays is awesome - but I really like Brittac- there belts are awesome and a lot cheaper than jay jays. I run the 20 molle slot 4 row and for my 34 waist it’s perfect

48 pounds for a 3 row jay jay molle utility pouch? GTFO. Brittac pouches are some of the best sewn I have ever seen- qasm buckes, 1k Codura and he sees them so the lid encloses the top (have to look at a picture) - so it’s harder for shit to fall out. Basically they aren’t just a limp flap sewn at the back.


I think molle secures well enough that the arguments for sewn in webbing (except for typically being able to run more pouches) goes away. Just watch when a pouch says 3 row and then sticks out a row on each side past that - can take some work to max the pouches you can fit on a belt

Just my impression of JayJay's hippo belt is that it's pretty light and meant to drain well (and it does); costs are relative, but yes, shipping costs suck monkey dick right now more than ever. I have both a sewn JayJays belt and MOLLE version. Looking back now, I would probably opt for a a sewn version with four or so MOLLE webbing loops on both sides of the pad. Since some are left handed or you may want to run a different rifle type/magazine, it would still be pretty light with better flexibility.

I do like the JayJay's hippo belt, and the MOLLE version gives you a lot more flexibility if you want to deviate from the standard pouch-set.  I have heard good things about the British Tactical pouches, but once you calculate in shipping you're almost better off going HSGI or similar quality. Of course surplus pouches are available and I've found a few smaller ones to fit my needs (smoke grenades) a cheap prices. Thanks for the link to British Tactical...they have some unique shit...

Once thing for certain, when you're running or doing crawling drills, the PLCE type kit, especially with the six straps, is extremely stable and doesn't get in the way of various drills from kneeling to prone.

ROCK6

Agreed, my big argument against MOLLE pouches are the lack of 3 row belt that are available around here and their cost after being built out, the sewn in seem way less expensive.  I guess there's weight savings and less bulk with sewn in as well.

On my belt, I actually learned something from this thread and made a simple but big improvement, I've got the two pouches on the end, for a light and TQ, just paracorded onto the same MOLLE channel the next pouch is attached too. Works fine, so MOLLE even just done adhoc is secure enough.  Half my other belt and PC is ATS gear, no snaps, just the old school tabs on the PALS straps, and they're secure.  That said, I have lost a canteen, that even had snaps, pouch off a ruck before while camping with the kids, so now I dummy cord pouches on my packs and belts.

Anyway, improvement made, I complained earlier about a floppy butt pack on this.  I looked at some of the LCE rigs ya'll posted and then came to the realization, "it'd be better to let the rear suspenders carry the butt pack and then let the butt pack carry the rear of the belt".  So rather than the butt pack hanging one row off the bottom of the two row belt, it rides one row high but is held up by the suspenders.  I then went a dummy corded the belt and pack together at the suspender loops.  Within a few miles with it, its feels like totally new animal now.

I'd think I'm going to put a sternum strap on it and done.

Where?

^^ This.  Another good thing to learn from this thread.  

The issued / surplus PLCE yokes don't have sternum straps.  Add one.

https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/british-military-surplus-load-bearing-vest-like-new?a=2254002

My personal opinion is that very few American companies produce the same thing as Brits. Most people do not make lidded utility pouches like the brits do not do they make ammo pouches like them and I can order a yoke, belt and pouches - eat the 50 dollar shipping and still be way less than a velocity kit costs.

You can pick up osprey pouches off eBay and Coleman’s surplus etc and I have ripped apart regular plce utility pouches and sewn molle to them.


I do not know if there is an advantage to jay jays hippo belt but I am not paying 90 for what a Brittac belt sells for 50 ish.

Plus their sizing seems off - to my waist size I use the jay jay belt with 17 molle loops - well hell- that’s not enough to fit all the pouches I need to equal the pouches on the sewn in jay jays kit- but I can on my brittac belt.

I can maybe see the more mesh construction of the jay jays drying faster.

I was referring to the hippo pad.  Not the PLCE kit itself.

Shortback bergens - 1. Have a tag under lid that says shortback.

2. If you get a pic of the back- count the horizontal sections (really sew in pieces of closed cell foam) - Shirley backs have the shoulder straps sewn in on the fourth one up (look for piece of green nylon webbing - that is a reinforcement).

May want to confirm- when I ordered one a year ago and ordered a medium - they sent me an all arms bergen -which is short and works - but is not same as a shortback bergen- it’s a panel loader

Nice looking rig! Your point about the suspender attachment to the belt or buttpack...the ideal situation (ala ARFCOM standard), is to use both Some belts with loops that line up to a buttpack make it helpful, but dedicated ones like the Russian Smersh allow you to thread the straps through  both. I think you can see on mine (PLCE type yoke/suspenders), I attached them directly to the buttpack as it does keep them from flopping.


I think at a certain point, it's more a function of preference than performance. I'm can't make a comparison, but despite the price difference, I suspect there's little difference (if any) in performance.

"Lidded Pockets", I though you were just being "cheeky", but you are absolutely spot on on your assessment. HSGI "used" to make pouches exactly like that; dual Velcro (that could be silenced) with a Fastex buckle and lids that sealed around the opening of the pouch. I think our American tactical industry evolved too fast and quite myopically.

I love my open top Kiwi and Taco pouches, but go do a few IMTs in think woods; run, drop, roll, crawl...you're gong to lose shit in open top pouches or shit is going to get packed in with whatever is in there. Covered pouches are necessary in some environments. Having a lid with circumference of coverage (HSGI's canteen pouches still have those features) does keep stuff more secure as well. While I'm normally not too worried about Velcro-only closures, they can get clogged with mud or soaking wet with water and loose their hook and loop connection (until cleaned/dried). That added buckle makes a lot of sense for more than just quiet opening. In tight terrain, Velcro pockets are likely going to get ripped or pulled open and if the "lid" isn't as secure around the opening of the pouch, smaller items mostly likely will fall out when you intentionally or accidently take a fall.

Velocity systems does a okay job of this (no the buckle for most pouches), their biggest advantage is really just the material and that may not even be an advantage depending on your personal requirements. The material is lighter and excellent at shedding and not retaining water, but they aren't as stiff as some of the heavier nylon/cordura pouches that retain their shape much better empty or partially empty.

I know some (like me initially) may overlook the "Lidded" pouch type, but I've lost shit out of pouches that weren't dummy corded, even with Tactical Tailor pouches that had a lid, but weren't tight seals when Velcro’d or buckled closed, small stuff can and will disappear.

@ATTom, good point about the Lidded-type pockets!







ROCK6

I might be wrong then.

I wasn’t saying it to point that out (that was a year ago- maybe they do have both.

More to point out that most American surplus places don’t know what a short vs long back is. It’s- I have a pile of British packs-order one lol.

I think (opinion without handling the VS kit) that although the British stuff is 1k Codura and heavy and prone to taking on water- it’s stiff and stays structured and creates a better “shelf” than the high speed lighter stuff. Hell I modded some plce pouches and sewed extra webbing around the mouth of the pouch for rigidity.

Right now I have 3 4-row utility from varestaleka and I am testing them out.


.  

https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/sarma-tst-general-purpose-pouch-l/56521

Thanks good buddy.  "Both" was my initial though too, and that's what I did.  But...being only a two row belt, its a $30 BAE belt, but it does have a wider lumbar portion so that's a small bonus, the butt pack hung off the bottom unsupported, and when the contents settled below that unsupported portion, I got the floppiness.   So holding the butt pack up to the suspender keeps every part of the pack nice and taut.  I'll have to post some photo's of the inside of the belt and maybe a little kit inspection to get an idea of capacity, there's some nice paracord action to keep it all tightened up on the cheap, but I'm sure you get the idea.

For what its worth, good or bad, the Fire Force butt pack is a lot bigger than the VS one.  And I've got it about 75% full of whatever day hike stuff the kids and me use.  Generally, I wanted a belt that I could run by itself or supplemented with a simple assault size pack.  So, I'm a little outside of the bergen club, I'm bigger belt and smaller pack.

And on lidded pouches, even after using lidded hard side SAW pouches on a couple packs, small items get put into baggies with other small items so they can't escape, even if it means it takes me another ten seconds to get my zippo and pipe tool out to light my pipe at camp.  And if I do have something like a lighter, small folder, or light in a pouch at the quick-and-ready, not in a baggie, I'll have a backup in the main pack that is in a bag, more secure, and water proof.  Stuff like that is too small and light not to have a backup anyway.

Really great thread going on.  Nice cross pollination of ideas and styles of LBE and packs from everyone.

I actually like my fireforce buttpack.  I can always cinch it down if I don't need it that big.




This is why I like the British utility pouches that have the internal draw-string cinch lining under the lid.  Kinda like a buttpack has.  Anyone who makes American-made utility pouches need to include this feature.

I guess I'm getting at, it could be too much of a good thing, if you really load it down.  Depends on the man wearing it.

I think American companies are all about zippered pouches, and I think part of that is everyone is convinced they should put everything on a plate carrier.  Back panels, cummerbund pouches, danglers, admin pouch placards...  Who doesn't love a 50 pound plate carrier?

Watching this thread carefully but making few comments.

Once things are sorted-out, will appreciate "one-stop-shopping" vendors for desired items.

It seems that shipping across the Atlantic Ocean is very expensive, and far more expensive than some years ago.

Yea, I try not to load mine down much.  But I like the room for a poncho and poncho liner.  Which isn't heavy, just bulky.

And I hate zippers.

If someone were to say, get a distributorship with some of these companies, would there be enough initial demand to make it worth that person's while?  

You go onto any "tactical" forum or reddit group, and then use the words, "kit", "load out", and MOST importantly, "sustainment".

Seems like they sell out of their stuff without us though.  I'd be curious if one could get a domestic "sewing company?" to do a run to similar specs.

Seems that First Spear does a bit of contract sewing. Probably a good number of smaller outfits willing to take work, too.

The VS pouches aren’t bad as a “shelf”, but I do agree, the thicker Cordura pouches are better suited for that purpose, and they actually have better structure even when empty. Most standard Cordura fabrics used for pouches and packs are treated with Teflon to repel water. Cordura, untreated, will absorb water like any other fabric. I do like the Helium Whisper material being completely hydrophobic and light, but, it’s expensive and does lack some structure with a reinforcing liner.

As I do my own evaluations, unless you’re doing serious water ops or spending time in a swamp, the heavier Cordura pouches will likely be fine for a few dunkings, rain, or water collected from vegetation.


Yeah, I was wondering how that Fire Force butt pack was…their stock/supply sucks so I’ll have to just keep an eye on another production run of multicam…


I’ll have to check which of my pouches have the draw string, but yeah, the draw string makes a significant difference in retention of smaller items…

A pouch large enough for the NATO 1L canteen kit, good sealing lid, secured by Velcro or able to be silenced with the secondary QASM buckle, waterproof lining (like Tactical Tailor’s pouches), and a internal draw string. Maybe a shock-cord around the middle to cinch up and keep smaller contents/items from rattling around? All with some outer MOLLE webbing on the three outer sides and on top and maybe on the bottom for a poncho roll attachment…anybody listening?


There’s a different mindset right now for military organizations and it does affect the priority for gear makers.

There are some sites with a good selection, but you’re simply not going to find a one stop-shop. I like OPTactical and SKD, but oftentimes I need to go directly to the makers for particular pouches (Blue Force Gear, First Spear, Velocity Systems, Helikon-Tex, HSGI, HPG, etc.). And then, you get some unique offerings that are hard to find domestically, so the Aussies, Brits, Finnish (specifically Varusteleka…pronounced “where’s the liquor”), or even Canadians.  Before Ukraine, even Russia actually had some good gear selections (such as the makers of the Smersh).

What we need is a small time distributor board where people can coordinate purchases for overseas products and split the shipping costs when ordered in “micro-bulk” packages.  Add a good custom maker in the mix to do smaller production and modifications, maybe even a virtual consignment shop, and it would be a niche heaven for a few of us!

ROCK6

The main way a company would be interested in US distribution is if Uncle Sam wanted to buy some and they would likely run into TAA and Berry Amendment issues. Varestreleka (sp?) should carry some of this new stuff - so we can quit getting raped on shipping.

Interestingly Tyr Tactical made something like a belt kit - but it’s no longer on their site and I can’t find much about it:



https://soldiersystems.net/2015/07/21/tyr-tuesday-jungle-coma-system/


They do have a hippo pad style belt on eBay for sale

https://www.ebay.com/itm/314158355281?hash=item49254c1351:g:8G0AAOSwZCljLRnA&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoPJ2moh7OggBMsQk88lMr91W9nS3b%2B3PUxDr09ja28L6mvZm%2BGhSHZX%2BKjvolCTGef%2Bz5bZs6gA4yVUr00Lds7RBM1k5kOMk3FHOejEtTXGSziyJBP8PWQnQ%2FvbfCj3VLuCMm8zubSg1csw7CHiI8y0nG02oPb7vzIoEvap2zyG17vhKvqFr9OlkyXyRxJNiTFEfYMx2ImCm3wzLJ9eMgNw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5Cbmu36YA

This.  Add the little loops of webbing on the sides of the pouches to run shock cord through if you want it.  Alot of the british pouches have this.  

Also make it able to fit a 1 quart regular Nalgene w/ nesting pot / lid and / or a steel version of the same.

2 columns of MOLLE on the back, not 3.

These can double as canteen and / or utility pouches in this kind of setup.

You really only need two kinds of pouches for this setup - the above and a decent 3 magazine pouch, similar in setup to the above but without the drawstring inner and sized for 3 x 30 round P-mags.  With a stiffener plastic or double cordura layers.

This is what I was thinking.

I thought about doing the production run thing mentioned above, First Spear and a few others came to mind.  Like Hill People Gear do for their packs.  But you need to do such large orders and the initial cost of prototyping and such that you need ALOT of up-front money.

You would be better off either importing from the british / etc, companies as a US distributor, or getting an established USA company to do their own production runs of these items.  I know certain people (Diz for instance) is working on doing their own versions with established companies of this kind of gear.  And that has it's own issues, though that is the long-term fix for this problem.  That is already in the works.  The stop-gap is what I was thinking - someone getting a small-time distributorship with one or more of these British companies and making orders, pre-sold, of the hard-to-get parts of this kind of gear, to cut down on shipping costs.  Slowly save up money made doing so to be able to stock the most popular basic items.  Or someone with some cash wanting to invest in it fronting the cash to kick things off.  

And keep a running list of where to get things like surplus British / Dutch / whatever pouches or American made pouches that work with belt kits.  Maybe get the mods to pin that list to the top of the forum or something.

EDIT:  I'd also like to see someone importing old-school PLCE pouches to fill out the partial sets we are seeing pop up.  And hippo pads for those sets.  Those partial sets still need 2 to 4 more pouches to complete a set and really need a hippo pad.  Those things are DIRT CHEAP over in europe.  Like I'm seeing pouches for $5 each and such.  But shipping is $35 to get that single pouch here.  The older belt-attached PLCE kits aren't bad, and surplus sets are much cheaper than the new MOLLE stuff.

That's actually someone I was thinking about that we should talk to about stocking these things if no one here wanted to do it.

Question.  That British Tactical website.  I cannot find out how to add a product to my cart.  For ANY of the products.

Anyone else having that problem?

EDIT:  Looks like they have stopped taking orders.

Same here.  The home page said something about not taking orders, but that was in August I think. Too bad.  Their large utility pouch is what I am looking for.  I think I may settle on an HSGI 2 quart canteen pouch.  I think it would be what I am looking for to finish out my set up.  Right now I have a SFLCS SAW pouch in that spot.  Overall it’s the right size, but it’s too open at the flaps and I’d like the molle on the sides and lid.

I think British Tactical products are available via Kit Monster:

Attached File


https://www.kitmonster.co.uk/index.php/cPath/199

I can’t agree more with almost everything- except the 2 row of molle on back. I can fit a nalgene and cup in BRITTACs smallest pouch. However it extends past two rows in width - taking up 3. Worst is the three rows are two right beside each other and 1/2 or each to the right and left. So it kills 4 rows…

The width difference between the Brittac vertical (2 row) and medium (3 row) is .78”. And it actually takes up three rows without dicking up the rows beside it.

3 row is a happy medium - although the true plce utility is really 4 rows wide. I am currently running 3 4 row wide vareseleka brand (sarma?-can’t remember).

I pulled the side seem and sewed in the webbing loops for bungee cords.

Anyway the rest of what is said is spot in Imho, especially the TT rubberized fabric - love that.

If I had my way- I would stick to webbing molle rows and straps. I do not really like the laser cut rubbery type straps- they fray etc over time and the ends (especially the BFG with Velcro) are a pain to run through the molle.

I much prefer webbing with an inch or so of plastic sewn in the end with a 1” section of nylon sewn perpendicular underneath the horizontal molle webbing to tuck into.

TAG does this. I will see if I can find a pic

Does anyone have the Velocity jungle 223 mag pouches? I have a Jay Jay's Chameleon belt kit and I am currently running OSOE Rallyman pouches on it. I like the Rallyman pouches because i can fit 3-30rd 556 PMAGS or 2- 20rd 762 SR25 mags in each pouch. The Velocity systems jungle pouches fully enclose the mags and I'd like more coverage. Does anyone know if the VS jungle 223 mag pouches will also fit SR25 mags?

3 columns take up too much room on the belt.  I get the bigger pouch size, but you can keep the pouch size and run 2 columns anyways.

Once you get your stuff dialed in, the utility pouches should be sewed on anyways.

Also MALICE over webbing or whatever for attachment.


EDIT:  I have surplus british utility pouches.  That are all the same size.  Some have 3 column, some have 2 column.  They both ride the same.  I can bungie them down anyways.  And I can fit way more pouches on if I use the 2 column ones.

I have some of the pouches on mine.  I got mine for the same reason as you.  It'll fit 3 x pmags.

No idea on the SR25.  Wish I had that problem   :-D  

Anyone from across the pond know about how much the going price is for sewing PLCE pouches to a belt?

Thanks for the info. I may just have to spend the cash, I can’t find an answer anywhere. I know they make 762 mag pouches but I prefer to not have to swap pouches for different rifles. I don’t have an SR25, just an LMT

Remind me. I have two of the VS mag pouches. I know they hold tree AR mags. I have both the 20 and 25 round 308 Pmags and will verify fitment.

I recalled a pouch that had the internal, draw-cord scree collar, and it's their Jungle General Purpose Pouch. While there are some features I like on some of the custom British pouches, this was is top notch...

ROCK6

I stumbled across a vendor in UK that will sell a Brit DPM yoke and two Brit DPM 10L side pockets which can be mated to the yoke and are (without the yoke), suitable for mounting on the sides of the Brit "OR" pack I already own.  We'll see how this works out.  I'm thinking the "OR" pack might be a bit long for the applications mentioned in this thread, but the Yoke+Side Pouches (Brits call 'em "Rockets") ensemble might be a tolerable alternative.

Vendor calls the Yoke+Rockets a "Daypack".  Link to UK Vendor

I'm considering this if I can make sure it's compatible with Jay Jay's side pouches. What I've been able to do is add an Eagle Yote assault hydration pack to my larger Bergen and I can quickly just remove it from the MOLLE straps and where for shorter trips or recce.  I do like the idea of the British side-pouch pack though...

ROCK6

I prefer the double layer 1000d British surplus pouches for this, while I like the VS mag pouches, I want a much heavier built pouch under my pack.  I don't know if I'd trust the lighter fabric from the VS.

The items, coming from the UK, will take some time to arrive.  What do you need to know? @ROCK6

Going by (Vendor) pictures alone, it appears the two "Rockets" zip together in the middle and are secured to the Yoke using the 3/4" fastex buckles on both the "Rockets" and the Yoke.  In sum, it appears to be two side-by-side independent 10L pouches, 20L total capacity.  Frankly I will be happy if the "Rockets" attach to my "OR" Brit pack, although they apparently attach to some other Brit packs and perhaps such different "base" packs might serve better than the possibly too-long "OR" pack I already have.

I'm just beginning from what I already have, making the "OR" pack fully capable, and moving on from there.

I just have to see in my Jay Jay's Bergen pouches have the clips integrated like the issued kit...thanks!

ROCK6

What is a British OR pack?


A lot of vendors sell the rocket pouchs.
They have a yoke that looks like a plce yoke but terminates in the small black buckles that the plce rocket packs use to clip on the bergen.

I have seen some plce yokes that have the clips sewn on so that you could clip one set on while not using the Bergen, but those buckles would seem to me to get in the way when using a bergen and not the rocket pouches.

First, allow me to say I'm not an "Expert" on Brit Mil gear.

Once my Brit Yoke and Pouches arrive, I'll be glad to supply detailed info on how the (Rockets) hopefully attach to my Brit "Other Ranks" pack.

Will also be glad to give a review on how the "Rockets" attach to the Brit Yoke as an independent small pack.  

This will take some time, unfortunately.

AFAIK, many different Brit packs over the years.  IDK if there are different-sized zipper-attachable side pouches (Brits call them "Rockets") for various Brit packs.  "OR" means, in Brit Mil language, "Other Ranks".

I have an "OR" pack and wanted the zip-on side pouches for it.  Just because.  Adding-on the Yoke that allowed the Rockets to be worn independently of the "OR" pack sounded useful.

Maybe this "Yoke + Rockets" ensemble will work out in conjunction with the general thrust of this thread.  Maybe not.

Will report back when items received.