Quoted: By Design, the 1911 is a superior combat weapon.  Same trigger pull every time. By execution, the Sig P220 is a better made, more reliable gun than most out of the box 1911s. Sorry ARownerAgain, If I'd have seen your post before I did mine, I'd have saved my breath.

+1

1911, while a good design, appear to need "a little" work to work as well as they can (e.g., extractor).  The Sig, while maybe not being as robust, appears to be better "out-of-the-box" than your typical .45.  But what do I know?  

Sig 220
Takedown: 3 parts, about 3 seconds
Dead reliable, very accurate, and easy to learn controls (KISS philosophy), lack of cocked and locked carry is annoying

1911
Takedown:  7 parts (going by Sniper_Wolfe's list), one of which can require a special tool depending on guide rod length?...they are all finicky at some point about ammo/cleaning/conditions.....90% of whats on the market these days, including kimbers, have intermittent reliability problems...id agree that they are easily pointed and favor the new shooter. Ive never taken one apart so cant comment on the time it takes to field strip.

I still think the USP .45F is the best of the bunch (if I were allowed to add to the list...)...takedown is also idiot proof and instant. Cocked and locked carry, or hammer down locked/unlocked (every possible combo in one pistol), also very accurate. But then again, im biased, I went from a 226 to the HK, and wont ever look back...

Quoted: Why wouldn't the Glock 21 be a better choice than the Sig? You get the single action trigger pull, more mag capacity, and a lighter weapon that has had all of the torture test done to it and passed?

KABOOM and ballistic fingerprinting.

How about if we compare firearms of similar price...$650 Sig and $650 1911...

Glocks are trash!

HK has the best quality control of any weapons manufactor in the world.  I've shot a lot of .45s in my time...but the only one I own is a...Mark 23.  Any one who says its too big...needs a slap in the face.  Its large but not 'too big'.  

Quoted: the 1911 is the most overrated firearm of all time.

You must have something on your mind.  Speak on it.

Quoted: How about if we compare firearms of similar price...$650 Sig and $650 1911...

And while we're doing that, let's compare a ford pickup to a corvette.

I've had both as well, and would buy a 1911, but I carry my Sig. Problem with 1911's is that there are good makers and junk, and the junk reflects on the good ones.  If one sticks to the reputable makers, they SHOULD be o.k. I've seen poor Colts, poor SA's, and have heard of poor Kimbers. You can't put the Les Baer's in the same category, because someone that can afford to daily carry a $2300 pistol should just hire a bodygaurd or buy an MP5 or something.

On the Sig, well I've got a couple sigs and like both of them. I carry my 220 the most though.

All 1911's I've had were simply higher maintenance. That includes the older 70 Mk4Colts.

I would trust a new Sig to perform, but would have to have a 1911 prove itself with a few hundred rounds without failure first.

BTW, my 220 is a junky police trade in that I stripped and KG coated. All I needed was a punch for the breech block. Everything else was simple to remove and reassemble.

Thanks for the pics Steyr I have one looks just like it only made by a type writer company!

As far as out of the box accuracy I wouldn't know as if it were ever boxed it would have been in 1945!

It is very tight and eats up anything fed to it even Wide mouthed HPS!


I am sure I would like to have a sig,or even a HSP or whatever!

The 1911 is not the end all of pistols,but certainaly deserves some respect!

And respect is earned not given!!!

Bob

I own a 1911A1 (SA) and I've YET to experience these "problems" and I've NEVER taken mine to a gunsmith "because it wasn't accurate enough".

In fact I'd be hard pressed to spend $200 or more to get it to shoot better. All I've done to mine is add a full length guide rod. Otherwise it's stock to the lock and accurate enough for me.

THEN......I was in the desert and a guy and his son (the son was on leave from the 82ABN) were there and we talked and ended up doing the "I'll let you shoot mine if you let me shoot yours" thing.

He had a Sig P220. I own a Sig P239, a 92FS and a S&W686 that I've spent a considerable amount of time working on my DA trigger pulls. I shot a mag through this guy's P220.

WHOA. FUCK!

I'd maintained up until then that the only other handgun I was looking to add to my collection is a Python.

Not anymore. I GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!!

HE even commented that I shot it well.

ETA: In the true ARFCOM mantra, GET BOTH!!

Quoted: Quoted: How about if we compare firearms of similar price...$650 Sig and $650 1911... And while we're doing that, let's compare a ford pickup to a corvette.

I'll take the Ford pickup!

I'm another one here who has both...I've got a older Kimber custom classic w/adj sights and a Sig P-220 with fixed trijicons...The Kimber is a fine range gun. The P-220 also fills this role well, If I had to pick one  to really depend on I'd take the Sig, hands down. It's almost as accurate as the Kimber, and that is saying something. The accuracy diffrence is'nt very much. No saftey to fumble around with...jack a round into the chamber, decock it and it's ready to roll. The Sig is the first handgun,well, second handgun I've owned whose sights were dead on out of the box, my East German Mak was the first,(SA Inc could take a few notes here,the Mil-spec I briefly owned shot low/left right out of the box)and that was one of the reasons IT went down the road. The Kimber has also had it's share of little problems all of which I fixed myself, The Sig has had none, zero, zip,nada.The Sig would'nt reliably feed my light reloads at first when new, but after about the 6-700 round mark it now feeds the same light loads without any problems at all. It now has around 2500 rounds on it. Field stripping the Sig is very simple and can be done very quickly, anyone who thinks a 1911 is easier to field strip, has clearly never field stripped a Sig , fewer parts, easier, quicker, to do period. The Da/Sa thing...I've never really had a problem with it, I've got a smith 586 that is very easy to shoot well using DA, Doing double taps with the Sig I was suprised how fast one can get a couple of rounds on a target accurately, with a little practice. I like the .45acp and the 1911 But the next .45 I get will be a Sig P220 st.  

1911 with an external extractor.

External extractors are blasphemy, IMHO. They just don't belong on a 1911.

Quoted: Quoted: How about if we compare firearms of similar price...$650 Sig and $650 1911... You guys are amazing. I didn't say it had to be a 95 year old $300 1911. I was comparing design. Feel free to talk about a $650 1911.

I actually took his remark as being on the oppopsite side of the spectrum.  Most "modern" 1911's that could hope to play ball with a 220 can not be had for anywhere near as low as $650.


I'm biased to the extreme.  My first handgun was a P226.  I've been in love with the 1911 since childhood, but won't buy one simply because the Sig design has spoiled me.

Manual safety?  I think not..

Quoted: Quoted: the 1911 is the most overrated firearm of all time. You must have something on your mind.  Speak on it.

nothing is on my mind, i'm just saying people act like it's a ray gun and without reproach when there are a bunch of handguns that match it or out perform it. it's a bandwagon-type gun. hell, i bet a lot of people that jerk off over it have never even shot one. just saying.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: the 1911 is the most overrated firearm of all time. You must have something on your mind.  Speak on it. nothing is on my mind, i'm just saying people act like it's a ray gun and without reproach when there are a bunch of handguns that match it or out perform it. it's a bandwagon-type gun. hell, i bet a lot of people that jerk off over it have never even shot one. just saying.

Yup the 1911 is a bandwagon type gun, I see now that even sig has GOTTEN ON THE BANDWAGON with the GSR. So I take it you have a good supply of K-Y ready?

Quoted: Quoted: Why wouldn't the Glock 21 be a better choice than the Sig? You get the single action trigger pull, more mag capacity, and a lighter weapon that has had all of the torture test done to it and passed? Because it would go 'Kaboom' after a few months! BigDozer66

I've heard that about Glocks in .40 s&w also but I've been shooting the same G23 for over ten years now with I'd guess over 6,000 rounds through it and "it no go KABOOM yet!".

After I started shooting alot at 25 yards I did see a need for a different sidearm and that's why I went with a 1911. Now I'm shooting fist sized groups, rapid fire, from the holster. When I slow down the groups get tighter.

Quoted: tdi.mine.nu/images/pinepig/SigSauer.jpg Charlie

THIS gun is butt ass ugly! A Glock looks better than this boat anchor!

Pinepig, nothing personal about your gun just all Sigs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How about if we compare firearms of similar price...$650 Sig and $650 1911... You guys are amazing. I didn't say it had to be a 95 year old $300 1911. I was comparing design. Feel free to talk about a $650 1911. I actually took his remark as being on the oppopsite side of the spectrum.  Most "modern" 1911's that could hope to play ball with a 220 can not be had for anywhere near as low as $650. I'm biased to the extreme.  My first handgun was a P226.  I've been in love with the 1911 since childhood, but won't buy one simply because the Sig design has spoiled me. Manual safety?  I think not..

We can have the 'Bottom of the line" Kimber's around here for $550.00 and the Stainless one's for $650.00 and any of them would be able "To play ball" with the Sig.

My brothers Compact Stainless has over 6000 round through it (everything from 165 gr. CorBons to 230 gr. Ball) and has never had a malfunction of any type...none...zero...nada!
I guess it is just a POS compared to the Sig though!

My Pro CDP has over 5000 round through it with zero failures of any type but it cost $850.00 so the comparision would not be equal.

BigDozer66

Quoted: Because "better" = "The way I like it."  The 1911 design can be easily modified to fit the needs and taste of each individual shooter, which is what all that stuff about triggers, hammers, etc. is about.  It allows the gun to fit the user, not the other way around.  An out of the box 1911 made by a reputable manufacturer is going to be usable out of the box.  The biggest issue it may have, other than needing to be broken in at the range, is a certain disposition towards certain types of ammo.

Understandable. I've always been an advocate of people doing whatever it takes to shoot better. Screw all this "you have to do it THIS way" crap, as long as you can shoot nobody should care.

How would you explain the relative lack of comparable modifications to SIG pistols versus the 1911 series? I know you can get different grips, short triggers or whatever, but nothing nearly on the scale of aftermarket mods and accessories that you can get for the 1911.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why wouldn't the Glock 21 be a better choice than the Sig? You get the single action trigger pull, more mag capacity, and a lighter weapon that has had all of the torture test done to it and passed? Because it would go 'Kaboom' after a few months! BigDozer66 I've heard that about Glocks in .40 s&w also but I've been shooting the same G23 for over ten years now with I'd guess over 6,000 rounds through it and "it no go KABOOM yet!". After I started shooting alot at 25 yards I did see a need for a different sidearm and that's why I went with a 1911. Now I'm shooting fist sized groups, rapid fire, from the holster. When I slow down the groups get tighter.

JB23,
I thought it was just the .45's that had the trouble but I could be mistaken about it.

The only Glock I have had the inclination to own is a G17/18 and will probably own one of these days.

BigDozer66

Quoted: At that point, a Ruger P-90 does about the same job as a 220. (here comes trouble!)

 

Muthafucka. You blasphemer!  

I'm not fond of the Sig's white dot over the square sight picture either.

I dunno about that. My Sig came with night sights installed.

Quoted: 1911 with an external extractor.

 ARRRGghhh!!! Prepare ta be keel hauled, ye scurvy dog!!!!

Quoted: Quoted: tdi.mine.nu/images/pinepig/SigSauer.jpg Charlie THIS gun is butt ass ugly! A Glock looks better than this boat anchor! Pinepig, nothing personal about your gun just all Sigs.

I have a glock also,  and I don't think it looks near as good as the 220,   the sig is actually a very nice looking gun.


And BTW ROTFLMAO.

Charlie

1911 Colt Commander in SS !

Quoted: Quoted: At that point, a Ruger P-90 does about the same job as a 220. (here comes trouble!)   Muthafucka. You blasphemer!   I'm not fond of the Sig's white dot over the square sight picture either. I dunno about that. My Sig came with night sights installed.

Actually, I have one of each of those.  Will trust my life to both, but damn, I do love those Sigs.  I have 3 other Sigs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: the 1911 is the most overrated firearm of all time. You must have something on your mind.  Speak on it. nothing is on my mind, i'm just saying people act like it's a ray gun and without reproach when there are a bunch of handguns that match it or out perform it. it's a bandwagon-type gun. hell, i bet a lot of people that jerk off over it have never even shot one. just saying.

I guess there are people like that then their are people who just perfer the 1911 because it fits them better.  
If you find a particular system that works better for you then stick with it.

Quoted: Everyone knows the best .45 handgun is the P220!

Fixed it for ya!  





Heheheh, my first "fix'in"!