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Posted: 8/17/2004 4:53:44 AM EDT
[#1]
I pay 3-5% below dealer invoice. Price is non negotiable. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 4:58:39 AM EDT
[#2]
The last new truck I bought was in 1993. I ordered it with a specific set of options & NO CARPET. When it arrived with carpet, I offered the dealer a price that was 25% less than sticker +$300. They seemed to be a bit baffled at my offer but wouldn't accept it. I left them my number & told them to call when they were ready to move the truck. 3 days later the call came & I told them my offer had expired & now it was $100 less than previously...no sale. 3 more days went by, another call & told I them my offers only last 24hrs....another $100 less. I did tell them the clock is ticking & their losing money everytime they wait
 Salesman said "We just can't sell it for that price, that's just too close to the margin". "My offer stands for 24hrs".....20 min later I get a call to come on down & we'll write up the deal. I have no idea how close I was to the dealers bottom price but I enjoyed negotiating with them.Like the others said, be firm but polite. Know your facts BEFORE you show up at the dealer. BTW, I'm done buying new....used is the way to go. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:01:13 AM EDT
[#3]
It sounds alot more like you're a money guy. Nothing wrong with that, but it's different. Car guys are the ones that were at the Nissan dealerships paying OVER MSRP when the 350Z first came out because they had been waiting years for the z to come back. Money guys are waiting until next year and buying a used one when the car guy gets tired of his new toy and moves on. You are the latter. Nothing wrong with either one, but there is a difference. And yes, I'd drive (within reason) a couple of miles to save some money on something. But some people get WAY too involved in the whole research and dickering thing. It's like a sickness. And very often the only motivation is to be able to say to all their buds "I got a better deal than you". Who cares? Case in point. I have a Gap outlet mall on the other side of the county. If I'm going to buy 3 pairs of pants it's worth it to drive over there to save $30. I have a regular Gap right next to my house. If I'm going to buy one pair of pants it's worth it to go there and pay $10 more. I am by no means saying don't be informed and just pay sticker at the first dealership you visit, but use your time wisely. Money you can always make more of, time is a finite commodity. I prefer to spend my time having fun than beating myself up for 3 weeks to save $50. YMMV. Oh, and you are right in a sense, I used to be a salesman. I worked at a gunshop. I used to have customers drive an hour each way to save $10 off the price of a gun. Again, just so they could tell their friends "look at the great deal I got and look how you got ripped off". Dumbasses. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:17:00 AM EDT
[#4]
I decide what the car is worth to me, before inquiring as to the price, that is what I am willing to pay, usually it is what the dealer is willing to take. It's a win-win.
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:18:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Sorry, I am a car guy, I also have an education. I currently drive a BMW 528i. I can tell you the instant the DSC will kick in, the moment the fuel shut off will kick in at top end. I do my own maintenence because I don't trust the dealer mechanics to do the job correctly, I also don't appreciate being ripped off. Just because someone has to have the newest and doesn't mind getting raped by a dealer, does not mean they are a car guy. Me studying cars and what I want for 3 weeks is not beating myself up. Not in any way, shape, or form. I do it because I like to do it. If I did not like it, then I would be beating myself up. You would just as soon someone over pay for convience. I can take the $50 I saved and invest it, or buy ammo. TXL |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:23:16 AM EDT
[#6]
... Perhaps you're one of those professional-behaving salesmen; they are rare. However, the majority of car salesmen are ruthless, money grubbing, bottom feeders that I’ve seen take naive young couples money through sheer pressure and intimidation. You’re not going to get a lot of sympathy from me. … KA3B is correct, do your in-depth research, have all your ducks in a row prior to entering and be firm. Also, timing is critical. You’re more likely to make a deal towards the end of the month when sales quotas are lagging. I go so far as to take newspaper ads and faked worksheets in with me. Again, these dealerships are making millions off people that allow to get-taken and poked in the ass on their car lots. … Oh yeah, and that price you quoted on page one of the "$48,000 for a new truck?!?!" thread - I got mine $2,040 cheaper. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:26:25 AM EDT
[#7]
You don't have to get offended. I've never in my life seen someone get wound up because they were called "not a car guy". Convenience is exactly it. It's one of the things that helps determine cost. I'm just a realist. I understand the difference between paying for convenience and overpaying. If you spent 3 weeks researching all that stuff, you didn't really save $50. You could have spent those 3 weeks MAKING $3k. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:37:20 AM EDT
[#8]
My wife gets pissed at me when we go shopping for a car for her. She finds something, falls in love with it, and wants it right then. She doesn't want to walk out and wait or go somewhere else. The salesmen eat that right up. Next time she needs a car, I'm going to ask her what she wants and then go shopping for it myself.
Best line I've heard from a dealer - "What is the maximum monthly payment you can handle?" Don't be a dumbass and answer that. They'll back into a sales price and charge you the max that you will pay and not the best they can do. When I was asked that question I said "Are you nuts? I'm not giving you the answer to that question and screwing myself." |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 6:37:45 AM EDT
[#9]
I work for an automotive group that sells Ford, Toyota, Honda and VW. I do their systems work now, but I have sold in the past. I think everyone should be forced to sell cars for 6 months. That will open many, many eyes.
I think I would have been "mutherfucked" and "gawd-damned" less if I had been at Parris Island. Altho it's changed a bit in the past few years, the managers, for the most part, still try to motivate the sales staff thru fear and intimidation. The turnover is horrendous. Probably 1 in 10 from a training class last a year. The pay is good if you can make it. One month I sold 12 new cars and made $1200, minimum wage. The next month I sold 15 new and used cars and made $6K. Selling new cars sucks. Used cars is where the money is unless it's some new, hard to get, or trendy model (Nissan Z, Dodge Viper, Mustang Cobra, etc.). Tossing in "a couple %" for the sales person only gives money to the dealership. Typically, the sales commission is figured off gross profit minus "pack" and doesn't include dealer holdback or special incentives. Pack is just non-commissionable gross from the car deal and is usually $5-700 in this area. So, figure you pay $300 over invoice. After pack, the salesperson get a "mini" deal, minimum commission, usually $50 or $100. For all the comments dealing with slimy lying carsalesmen, there are still those. However the internet has bred a more educated buyer so the business has had to adjust accordingly. Unfortunately, just because it's on the internet, doesn't make it true. The manufacturers will periodically reinvoice a particular model or trim package, up or down. Down is no problem, it's up that causes the problem. I can remember a couple deals where the $100 or so from the reinvoicing brought out the allegations of liar and cheat from the customer. On that same note, if I had $1 for every time the customer lied to me, I'd be a rich man. Trade mileage, better deal across town and accident history were the most common but you'd be surprised how many people bounce their down payment check. All that being said, a salesperson can expect, on average, to actually sell to 1 customer in 4. Be polite and firm and expect to be treated like the 25%. Be an ass and a dick and expect to be treated like the 75% jackoffs. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 7:09:07 AM EDT
[#10]
I was a salesman, a sales manager and then a finance manager for the largest Ford dealership in New Mexico. I attended many training sessions and even taught several myself. So get ready for the secret, and no it is not complicated or take a bunch of time....
1. Always use sales price, on the car you want to buy, NEVER payment. In fact, I will always now tell the salesman or manager that I am a 'cash buyer' and am only interested in the final, out the door price. This will keep the transaction in simple enough terms that you and the dealer are always on the same page and does not allow the dealer to confuse the sale with multiple terms and aspects. Most dealers will write their first counter-offer showing up to 20% down pmt (to assure you can get the best rate)....BUT the payment they show you will not reflect ANY down pmt. This disparity is called leg... 2. Always have your financing set up ahead of time (most of the super low rates are mysteriously 'unavailable' once you get into finance) as this will keep you from getting hit with leg as the finance guy tries to include enough 'no extra charge' stuff like A&H, Credit Life and Extended Warranties to make the payment true to what you were intially sold on out on the floor. I have been in mucho trouble for disclosing the leg amount, using about 1/3 to 1/2 of the difference for the items that would really help them such as a good extended warranty w/o a deductible, for instance. 3. DO NOT call anyone a liar...except on your way out. I will never understand why some asshead customers will get to a point they think you or the dealership are lying but then stay for the deal. Have the strength of your convictions and leave when you think you are getting ripped off. Listen close...if you piss me off (and I do not bum rush your insulting ass out of the dealership...remember, I was management) I will make serious bank on you....and you will never see it. The average buyer will buy a vehicle every 2.7 years....we were selling over 500 per month! The dealership will win in this case....every time. Hell, I would let people get on the 'net to Edmunds right in my office, and I would still sell them at the price I wanted. 4. Lease only for the right reasons (no negative equity, new car every two or three years), not the wrong reasons (lower payment). Negotiate the lease the same as above, from aquisition price, NOT payments. I am here, as a reformed car guy, to answer the questions form the masses at AR15.com in an effort to help youse guys save some jingle. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 7:25:01 AM EDT
[#11]
So THAT'S how you afforded that M3 
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Posted: 8/17/2004 7:32:32 AM EDT
[#12]
Yep....well at least I knew enough to keep from getting hosed. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 7:34:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Unless you are able to pat cash on the spot... that $200 becomes more depending on the finance terms... so yes, its worth it to shop around.
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Posted: 8/17/2004 10:26:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Well, I already got paid about 5000 for those 3 weeks doing my regular job. I don't relish working for someone else on my off time. I can research cars and play with my kids at the same time. I can't get a second job, working another 20 hours a week that pays $50/hr TXL |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 10:28:29 AM EDT
[#15]
I love that line. I usually tell them about $1000 a month. But since I don't need a new ferrari, I will be spending much less than that. I then tell them not to worry, I already have my financing lined up. TXL |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 10:54:52 AM EDT
[#16]
Let's just say I view car buying as bloodsport. And I love it. I love the reactions I can illicit from these assholes. I've actually had a few lose their tempers with me, and at least one threaten to quit if he had to continue dealing with me. Turnabout is fair play, punk, so deal with it or work at Mickey D's. Basically, 99% of them are shocked when they get an informed consumer who knows what his car is worth, what their care is worth, understands holdbacks, incentives, interest rate manipulation and all the other ways dealers hide the money that essentially steal from you. It's a hoot watching them squirm when they get a customer that can play their game. I'm never loud or unresonable in my demands, just firm and direct. I'm polite. To the point of being an asshole, really.
Basically, it boils down to this: Car dealers, and car salesmen, by default out to fuck you. Car salesman are out to fuck you. Car salesman are out to fuck you. Did I mention, that car salesmen are out to fuck you? Oh, you get the occasional one who's heart isn't in it, but the hardcore ones will fuck you faster than a 10 dollar hooker. Hell, they're trained to fuck you. They send them to school to learn the most efficient way to fuck you. They are trained on preying on the mistakes that common buyers make. Selling a payment, ignoring the trade in value etc...a veritable plethora of ways to break it off in your ass and maximize the money they rape you for while minimizing their outlay. Fine, this is s free country, and a capitalist one at that, but just don't get pissed when I play your game right back. People ask me what I think is "fair" profit. Fair Schmair. My goal is to make money off them. I'm in a car deal for me. Fuck the dealer. In short, Car Salespeople (last one I dealt with was a really hot young chick, who thought a short short skirt and nice set of tits in a low cut blouse and an "accidental" moneyshot would make me forget my bargaining routine...) hate me. Right after we sign the papers. And I wouldn't have it any other way. SG |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 11:55:49 AM EDT
[#17]
The last few cars I've bought have been pretty simple. I figured what I wanted to pay, added taxes and offered a fixed price. When the dealer asked about sales taxes, doc fees, etc. I told him to allocate the money however he wanted - if he wanted to put in a $2000 doc fee to make the management happy, go for it, as I didn't care because my price was fixed.
I also had one finance manager demand my social security # when I was paying cash for a car. I never could figure out exactly what they planned to do with it. I gave him an option - he could have my ssn, or he could have the check I had in my hand. Surprise, surprise, he took the check. My very first experience with a car salesman was really, really bad and I've had a extreme distaste for them since then. One year for my birthday I went to a dealership and looked at cars. I had researched a particular car and knew what the dealership paid for it. I negotiated for the car with zero intention of buying it. I kept insisting the salesman could meet my price if he really wanted to, but that he wouldn't because he didn't like me. I knew my price was around $1000 less than what they paid. After wasting a couple of hours of their time, I demanded their best price, which they gave. I stood up, smiled and stuck out my hand for a handshake, and said "Thanks for your time. Bye." The stunned look on the manager's face (and the salesman that I dealt with) was priceless. I walked out and managed to keep a straight face until I drove off the lot, then laughed uncontrollably for a while. One of the best birthday presents I ever got for myself. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 12:11:58 PM EDT
[#18]
I don't golf, and I saved 8k on my last purchase. That might not be much to you, but it is for some of us. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 12:45:25 PM EDT
[#19]
There is no negotiation.
• Do your research (including your trade in if any, and a knowledge of %apr is good as well) • Test drive the selected vehicle (dunno about all the companies but DaimlerChrysler and Ford dealerships put their inventory up online, an invaluable tool to us bargain hunters). • Tell them if they make me a deal and everything is right, you'll buy it that night. • Always go with about 2 hours left in the day, and go at the END of the month. They want to make their sales goal (or go past it) so they're more likely to deal then. • BE PREPARED TO WALK AT ANY TIME and let them know it through your body language If they don't come down on price, walk. If they try to run a credit check on you (don't ever give them your drivers license OR a credit card), walk. If they don't give you FAIR value (or more) on your trade in, walk. If they don't give you a good APR on the loan (if you don't have financing already lined up), walk. I have purchased 5 vehicles using this strategy and have gotten great deals every time. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 12:55:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Buying a car is simple.....when possible, plan in advance to buy.
When you decide what you want, search autotrader.com for 1) a slightly used version of what yo uwant. 2) one that belongs to an individual. when you find this, offer them what YOU think its worth. I have good friends who are car salesmen...my father was one, our current pastor at church is one (yeah, here come the jokes) but quite honestly, I am unwilling to pay for any percieved value they add to a vehicle...so I don't. And as far as buying from a USED car salesman....no, no, no, not now, not ever. |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 1:01:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Never deal with the car salesperson. Only deal with the sales manager, because they are going to change all the details that you and the salesperson had negotiated.
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Posted: 8/17/2004 2:42:31 PM EDT
[#22]
I also like the edmunds.com site. It is easy to use and is pretty accurate. I just bought a BMW Z4 2.5i through the internet sales rep of a local dealer. The price was over $4000 less than the best offer by other dealer in the area.
The BMW is for my wife. I didn't know that they were made in the USA. My Chevy S-10 is made in Canada for cryin out loud! |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 2:55:11 PM EDT
[#23]
If $200 isn't a big deal to you then how about you send it to me. $200 buys me groceries for a couple weeks, pays utilities for a couple months, buys me ammo....
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Posted: 8/17/2004 3:14:02 PM EDT
[#24]
"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse..."
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Posted: 8/17/2004 3:52:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Actually, $2k=$2,000, not $200. But you and many of the other people are missing the point. The point is it doesn't have to be a battle and a fight, but most of you won't think you "got a deal" unless you piss, moan, scrap, fight, etc. I know somebody that bought a truck very nearly identical to mine. They researched, dickered, whined & cried and still paid more than me. Strange thing is I just don't feel the need to wander around telling everyone "I paid less than him". |
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Posted: 8/17/2004 5:01:57 PM EDT
[#26]
You just did....
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Posted: 8/17/2004 9:51:01 PM EDT
[#27]
carsdirect.com
Ill never talk to a salesman again. |
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