Thread needs moar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Howard_Hunt



This was a man who toppled governments for a living.  He even toppled Nixon's, apparently quite by accident. His deathbed confession to an estraged son he was trying to make amends to carries alot of weight with me.



And he said the man who gave the order was at Kennedy's right hand. The man who stood the most to gain should Kennedy be removed, and the most to lose should his presidency be successful.

This.

For an ex-Marine, I would imagine it would be akin to shooting fish in a barrel.

Then he murders Officer Tippet(sp?) right on the street............GUILTY!!

Bo Grietz told me the same thing.

Would you like to know who killed Kennedy?

You ready for the truth America? Here it comes:



Oswald killed Kennedy.



That's right, Lee Harvey Oswald killed John F. Kennedy, alone and by himself... with a magic bullet.

That's right, the bullet was actually magical, magic does exist, we've known about this for some 2000 years.

LHO did it alone. The time frame for the three shots was nothing special.

It's funny the left handed thing came up, because the previous version of a conspiracy theory was that LHO was left handed, which means he couldn't have operated a right handed rifle so quickly. Now, it is just the opposite. Whatever it takes to make a conspiracy theory work, I guess.

I've also heard the scope was not zeroed. I've also heard that using a scope slows down the process. The fact of the matter is LHO was trained by the USMC to use iron sights. He was firing at well under 100 yards, he didn't need a scope.

My theory is that he used the iron sights. I also think he missed one shot due to what best can be described as buck fever, or over excitement.

Remember this wasn't his first assassination attempt.

It can easily be explained by luck, as well. I made a half court free throw shot in basketball the first time I tried, and I've hit the exact bulls-eye of a target at 100 yards with a shoddy AK first shot once. That doesn't mean I can replicate it on demand, just like there's plenty of shots that we've all taken before that were pure luck. This is two of three at under a 100 yards in a decent sized target that's not moving very fast. It's not impossible, even if it might be hard (which it's not). The difficulty of the shot is not damning evidence at all.

There is a lot of mythology surrounding the JFK assassination. A lot of it is simply false. The distance of the shot is one. Some people over-represent the left-right drift of the target. Some under estimate the time involved. For instance, I've seen one "demonstration" that put a shooter on a timer. They said "go" and the shooter had to fire three shots in something like 6 seconds. IIRC the time is closer to 8 seconds. Not only that the timer doesn't really start until the first shot is fired. That means the LHO had something like 8 seconds to fire two shots, one of which missed, at a target, at its furthest was, 88 yards away.

To me the only luck part is the exact point of impact of the bullet. Shooters have fired the string of shots in that time. Shooters have replicated the "magic bullet." The "luck" part is stringing those circumstances together.

Look for the book Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger.





 

But why male models?

Then there is the bystander who was wounded that day.



http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tague.htm



I had a short conversation with him several years ago. Interesting fellow.

I heard that when the FBI obtained Oswald's rifle for ballistic testing, it was so far out of zero that it had to be zeroed to do the ballistics tests. I don't believe it, and that doesn't really make any sense, but I've heard that theory.

That's the story I heard as well, but that was for the scope. The irons were still usable given that that scope mount was of a military type that had clearance for the irons.

Irons at that range is all you need.

Referring to Oswald, maybe? Jeebus.

would it be out of line for Top Shot to try to recreate it?

You might want to do some research.  Both exit wounds were larger than the entrance wounds

Oswald used FMJs.  Absent of tumbling, and in soft tissue, there isnt going to be a large exit wound.  The wound to Kennedy's torso had definant yawing.  The wound to his head is slightly more complicated in that bone, elastic tissue, and inelastic tissue.  That said, the entrance wound to the back of Kennedy's head was small, and the exit was large and grievous.

Not true at all.  Either you are wrong, or you are speaking the truth.


I am not a great rifle shot.  Some say I am, but I dont.  Recently, on a whim, I used an '03 Springfield to shoot moving 2 liter bottle.  The bottle was further out, about 150 meters and I was at 50'ish feet elevation.  I hit the bottle with 3 times with 3 shots(3rd shot destroyed the bottle).  Not exactly Oswalds setup, but close.

All that being said, an ABC special had a shooter do it easily, as did the Discovery Channel.




Answer me this, have you ever been to Dealey Plaza or the 6th Floor Museum, much less here in Dallas?

The video shows nothing more than the wind blowing his toupee off. He's still alive...duh!

No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.

I haven't seen the Discovery Channel one, but I did post,  the one I'm familiar with, which was the CBS one from 1967 that recreated the event, expert marksmen only average 1.2 hits per 3 shots after 37 attempts. Add to that, in 1975, when an unedited version of the Zapruder film was aired on Geraldo's show, only after Geraldo agreed to sign upfront to take responsibility for whatever lawsuits may occur, or whatever actions may happen, the U.S. government saw fit to hold  four more congressional investigations to quell the conspiracy.

If Oswald was indeed the guy, the one and only, why would the most powerful government in the world feel the need to appease the public?

That unedited film, show several frames that had been unavailable to the public, including the head and body direction after impact, the skull clearly exploding from the opposite direction that it should, and possibly even more telling, police officers rushing to the train tracks, in the direction of the front of the president. The officers going in that direction in response to the shots fired, is very telling. It adds validity to the many witnesses who said that they heard shots coming from there, and the depository. Those witnesses were all dismissed as hearing echos, even though they were adamant that they heard precise, clear shots from that direction. That testimony was not included in the Warren commission's reports.

Also, I have an original, early copy of Six Seconds In Dallas. Thompson, the author, had worked for Time, the owners of the original Zapruder film, and was pressured by his former employers to not release the book. He had access to the frames that showed the head shot, and had put them in the book. He was forced to have an artist render them for the published copy rather than actually have the photos included, which lent credence to the claims that he falsified the drawings. Time sued him after the book was released, but lost. The release of the film in 1975 matched exactly what was drawn.

There are far too many things that point to Oswald not acting alone.

Here again, is the ABC video.

Or CBS, but whatever.

The biggest discrepancy I see between that simulation and the actual event is the consistent speed of the target in the simulation.

The fact remains that NO factual evidence has ever been presented to prove that Oswald didn't make the shots. I went through years of not believing it myself before making that realization.

Oswald, alone.

True, but all of the other evidence, much of it suppressed for years, costing a ton of money and time by the government, points to other sources bring involved as well. The facts as presented by the government just don't sit right. They don't add up. There are too many people that had other experiences. There is also the fact that two personal friends of my father's, both well respected nationally known figures, were there. One of them, Kiker, who was in the motorcade, thought there was more to it initially. His reports later on matched those of the rest of the press, but early press reports had variations that would point to a different story than what was later to become the official line.

I still think there was a conspiracy.

Too many witnesses died, too much intrigue associated with Oswald, too convenient that both the shooter and the shooters shooter never went to trial, too much misinformation in the Warren Report.

A lot of people wanted Kennedy dead.  Powerful people.  I find it hard to believe that the SS could protect JFK from all of his enemies except one little ole pissant Oswald.

A conspiracy theorist dies and and goes to heaven.  This is finally his chance to know the truth.  He asks God, 'please tell me, who killed Kennedy?'  

God says 'Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy and he acted alone'

As the guy walks away he says 'wow, this is bigger than I thought'

It's the nature of the beast in reporting. Like I said, I unearthed a quip a doc at Parkland said that even Jim Marrs hadn't come across before. I don't really think it's evident of anything more than some wild speculation to answer a question, but it can be interpreted 100 different ways.

In the madness of a situation, people can draw their own conclusions, based on their own perspectives, very quick. Saw a good bit of that in Iraq.

As for what was suppressed, one has to remember that often times these decisions come down to individuals - folks who have their own ideas, fears, imaginations, etc. For a number of reasons a man can decide to do something in his authority that doesn't make sense to anyone else.

Oswald was a pretty decent shot.  His data book from Marine basic has him on two occasions getting a 48/50 and a 49/50 at the 200 yard rapid fire with his Garand.

I don't believe in Oswald, but that is a funny joke.

Utter nonsense. Things don't add up because you don't want them to. In this thread you ignored the FACT that the three tramps were positively identified long ago and continue to spout the utterly baseless accusation that one of them was E Howard Hunt. You ignore the fact that numerous simulations have repeated Oswald's marksmanship.

Have you read Posner's Case Closed, or Bugliosi's Reclaiming History?

Well, there you go.  Thanks for the info.

IMHO, the only thing that stupid Oliver Stone movie (and apparently Attorney Garrison) got right was that Kennedy was murdered.  And, Garrison's views fueled the conspiracy theory for another 35+ years.  Oliver Stone cashed in on it.

IIRC, it took about one hour for the jury to acquit the guy Garrison was prosecuting way back then.

Boils down to fact that Oswald had a lousy childhood, lousy marriage, lousy time in the service, went commie and moved to the CCCP and they didn't like him ........ came back with a real poor attitude ..... got on the Cuba/Castro bandwagon ...

Got a job at the school book depository, heard Kennedy was coming to town and one of the routes may take him past work, brought his Carcano to work  rolled up in a rug, saw an opportunity, took the shots (fist one was straight down when the motorcade was closest and was deflected by tree/traffic-signal), other two hit, history ..... two people actually saw him taking the shots .............

Ran and killed officer Tibbets when he stopped him for questioning  - caught in theater with revolver ... www.jdtippit.com

Ruby loved/worshiped the Kennedys and had access to the cop-shop though his strip-club dealings with LE/press, heard Oswald was being transported, showed up, bang ....... he did it so that Jackie wouldn't have to testify in a trial .....

Ruby was not mobbed up - even his Rabbi said that he was a sentimental blabber-mouth and could not be trusted with any kind of secrets .................

Lots of other interesting stuff .......... grassy knole, autopsy, golden-bullet, conspiracy, etc ................ covers about everything

I read the Posner book published after the original time-line errors were fixed - some day the Bugliosi book is better - both are long - 1K pages.

Good read ........... not everyone will buy it, but really pulls things together ............

Dealey Plaza cam from the sixth floor window.





http://www.earthcam.com/usa/texas/dallas/dealeyplaza/





It may or may not be panning left and right today. Right now it's looking up Houston street.



 

I just watched the Zapruder film. Frame by frame on the headshot,looked to me like the bullet came out over the right eye,blew out that part of his skull.

It's never the one you expect.



 

Colonel Mustard in the library with a gun?

Nah, Oswald in the book depository with a Carcano.

<Bones>He's dead Jim<Bones>

Oswald was definitely the lone gunman. I would not be surprised if he had Soviet or Cuban aid, but would be equally unsurprised if he acted alone.

A lot of people died when the Bay of Pisgs operation went down.  Supposedly, JFK was having back problems/Addison's Disease flare up/banging someone other than his wife, and let Bobby run the operation - and Bobby chickened out on supplying some of the air support, some of which was supposed to come from the Navy, IIRC.

A lot of people were, and some are, still real pissed about that.

I can understand where the attitude in the post comes from.

I think they kept one CIA pilot's corpse on ice until the 70's, until he finally was returned from Cuba to be buried by his family.

Modern analysis of the "magic bullet" shows it acted normally.  The position of the bodies changed between shots, and that was not accounted for in the Warren report.



 

Hardly convincing that it was an impossible shot.  It was good shooting, done by an Marine who qualified sharpshooter, and who had attempted other assassinations already.  



 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfSXkfV_mhA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PD9EmX7R3I&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZRUNYZY71g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RCX3RdVHqo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RX2phbWmgA&feature=related


I snickered at this one, for obvious reasons

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=kXgKTOj9CjU

I live in Dallas.  Born and raised.  I go by Dealey Plaza and the 6th Floor Museum 150+ times a year.  I can tell you that it is, without a shadow of a doubt, an incredibly easy shot to make.

Also, Warren Commission incorrectly assumed Kennedy's and Connally's seats were the same height, but they weren't.  Connally's seat was lower therefore the trajectory of the bullet makes more sense.

While I don't believe LHO was alone this made me laugh.

Screw that lame-o Kennedy.

I wanna know if there was a conspiracy to kill king Charles XII of Sweden.

http://www.carlonordling.se/king_charles.html

Interesting story. I'd be interested in seeing some more ballistics data if it is available.

I've been to Dealey Plaza and I've looked out the window at the "x" that marks the spot JFK was hit.

It is an easy enough shot, I agree with that part.  Less easy to fire three shots in 6 seconds and score 2 hits under pressure at a moving target with a junk, improperly zero'd scope though.

Your facts are way off.  Perhaps its time for more reading.

It wasnt 6 seconds, more like 9-10.  To squeeze off 3 shots (miss, hit, hit) is no biggie.

He may or may not have used the scope.  If he did, who's to say it wasnt zeroed, and was knocked out of zero when he tossed it?

What I have read suggests that the scope was designed for a rimfire.  Even if it was zero'd it likely would have lost zero after the first shot.  

NEVER have I read ANYWHERE that Oswald took up to 10 seconds to get the three shots off.  Got a source for this?  If this is true, this would mean that the distances of the shots would be quite a bit different than previously thought.