I tend to side with the skeptical guys here.

That gun blew apart in a most nasty way. That in itself is scary.
I've seen case failures in AKs where even in the extreme cases, the rifle still held together.

What bothers me is that "Oh, that was some bad BAD ammo you used!" seems like the real easy and self-absolving answer. Why should they accept any blame? Why would they? What are you going to do about it... accept a new carbine free of charge, yeah, we thought so.. case closed, have a nice day! hecked
Worrysome. I think I'll stay away from these. Not due to MFR service issues but rather, that kind of blast scares the hell outta me. A free replacement won't bring me back to life or replace my eyeball or pull the hunk of plastic outta my cranium. I had my sights set on this product too.

Now I'm thinking Beretta Storm again. Maybe I oughta just avoid plastic altogether.

Quoted: that's pretty much where i am right now. if a defective round cause this extream of a failure it's not a good thing.

Unfortuately, if it is a gun problem you won't be the only one to have this kind of failure.  I am wondering how a KB this catastrophic could have happened if the bolt really was in battery and locked up, without shearing the lugs in the process.

Quoted: ... Worrysome. I think I'll stay away from these. Not due to MFR service issues but rather, that kind of blast scares the hell outta me. A free replacement won't bring me back to life or replace my eyeball or pull the hunk of plastic outta my cranium. I had my sights set on this product too...

I sure hope you don't have any ARs, then... www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=260335


Not flaming you, just pointing out that there isn't a firearm made that can't/won't ever blow up.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ignorant.  If other similar KB reports show up, then there will be evidence that there is something wrong with the design and/or manufacturing.  Until then, I'm not going to write off an entire product line from one incident, even if it is somebody I know and trust...  but YMMV, of course.

Quoted: Quoted: ... Worrysome. I think I'll stay away from these. Not due to MFR service issues but rather, that kind of blast scares the hell outta me. A free replacement won't bring me back to life or replace my eyeball or pull the hunk of plastic outta my cranium. I had my sights set on this product too... I sure hope you don't have any ARs, then... www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=260335 Not flaming you, just pointing out that there isn't a firearm made that can't/won't ever blow up.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ignorant.  If other similar KB reports show up, then there will be evidence that there is something wrong with the design and/or manufacturing.  Until then, I'm not going to write off an entire product line from one incident, even if it is somebody I know and trust...  but YMMV, of course.

The only problem is... this is a NEW gun... i.e.... unproven.  Yes, kBooms can happen to any gun.  But given he was using Q3131A, which has an excellent reputation for quality, and this is a new design in limited circulation.... there is nothing wrong with taking a "hide and watch" stance for a while.

Just as beekeeper has no reason to suspect anything wrong from Kel-tec, neither do I.  But I also have nothing to suspect from Winchester/IMI with that proven ammo.

Besides - regular Aluminum AR kBooms typically contain the blast just fine, even when intenal parts blow all to hell.... very little get bown in a direction that would do serious damage, like happened here.  It isnt a valid comparison.

I'll pass.... for now.

Quoted: Quoted: that's pretty much where i am right now. if a defective round cause this extream of a failure it's not a good thing. Unfortuately, if it is a gun problem you won't be the only one to have this kind of failure.  I am wondering how a KB this catastrophic could have happened if the bolt really was in battery and locked up, without shearing the lugs in the process.

Its all right there in TBS's pictures.

The bolt is locked, but as on the AR-15 a case separation blows a shitload of gas back past the bolt at 55 thousand PSI.  

It did not have anywhere to go.

The gas blasted into the carrier and pushed it so hard that the carrier ruptured on the bottom, slipped off past the bolt cam, and blowing through the back of the gun -- and right past TBS's head.  As its blowing back, gas takes the path of least resistance I'd guess this creates lateral pressures that will in turn unlock the bolt, or that as the carrier was tearing and shooting backwards there was still enough engagement with the carrier to unlock the bolt as everything was failing.

We've all seen AR-15 carriers split on the camp pin.  I've only seen a couple where the destruction to the carrier has been total, but even in such case, they sort of wedged open and "locked" in the tight fitting upper.   That action on a bit of plastic blows it appart.  

On the Kel Tec gun, the carrier being aluminum, the structural failure occurs a lot easier, which means that all that energy is accelarating the chunk of steel out of the gun, instead of blowing down the magazine well.

EDITED TO CORRECT:  Carrier is steel, per Kel Tec.  My sense is that the force was just massive, perhaps an overcharge coupled with a weak case to cause so major a failure.

Having seen these pictures and the math on how the carrier's energy dump had it smacked TBS in the cranium, I will not own one of these until:  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to vent some of the gas that was otherwise acting on the carrier to increase force; and (2) perhaps some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this.

That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... Worrysome. I think I'll stay away from these. Not due to MFR service issues but rather, that kind of blast scares the hell outta me. A free replacement won't bring me back to life or replace my eyeball or pull the hunk of plastic outta my cranium. I had my sights set on this product too... hopewww.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=260335 Not flaming you, just pointing out that there isn't a firearm made that can't/won't ever blow up.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ignorant.  If other similar KB reports show up, then there will be evidence that there is something wrong with the design and/or manufacturing.  Until then, I'm not going to write off an entire product line from one incident, even if it is somebody I know and trust...  but YMMV, of course. The only problem is... this is a NEW gun... i.e.... unproven.  Yes, kBooms can happen to any gun.  But given he was using Q3131A, which has an excellent reputation for quality, and this is a new design in limited circulation.... there is nothing wrong with taking a "hide and watch" stance for a while. Just as beekeeper has no reason to suspect anything wrong from Kel-tec, neither do I.  But I also have nothing to suspect from Winchester/IMI with that proven ammo. Besides - regular Aluminum AR kBooms typically contain the blast just fine, even when intenal parts blow all to hell.... very little get bown in a direction that would do serious damage, like happened here.  It isnt a valid comparison. I'll pass.... for now.

Hardshell,
That was probably the first thread I read on this site... I read every bit of it. Might be what brought me here in the first place, I forget. Overall... I feel pretty confident in my AR system. It's a tested and proven system, even if it's sometimes finicky due to tolerances... seems pretty rare to see kabooms with them, and I agree with FALARAK, typically it's a contained situation.  I don't care if the bolt bends, mangles, snaps, just so long as it isn't sticking outta my dome.

Not long ago I was looking at the Kel-tec 2000? The folding carbine, I'm sure you know the one. In my hands, it did not inspire confidence. A Glock feels like a tool, the Beretta Storm feels rugged, the Kel-Tec felt like paintball/airsoft.
 
To see pics like those in this thread, I feel like my concerns are confirmed, at least somewhat.

I realize we all take a chance in this hobby.  I really try to mitigate the risks though.
I'm fairly confident that ARs / AKs are a proven design, well made, and a failure won't be catastrophic. Ammunition is unpredictable despite our best efforts, so we can't rely on this part, only on the firearm's capability to deal with it.

With this Kel-Tec... definitely a "hide and watch" for me. hinking.gif
Honestly, I really hope I'm completely wrong. I would'nt wish an exploding gun on anyone.

Quoted: Having seen these pictures and the math on how the carrier's energy dump had it smacked TBS in the cranium, I will not own one of these until:  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to be a STEEL part; and (2) some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this. That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out.

Excellent post Gonzo...
And I agree that this gun needs to be re-evaluated. The reinforcements that you suggest would make me a hell of alot more comfortable shooting one, or being anywhere near a live one.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: that's pretty much where i am right now. if a defective round cause this extream of a failure it's not a good thing. Unfortuately, if it is a gun problem you won't be the only one to have this kind of failure.  I am wondering how a KB this catastrophic could have happened if the bolt really was in battery and locked up, without shearing the lugs in the process. Its all right there in TBS's pictures. The bolt is locked, but as on the AR-15 a case separation blows a shitload of gas back past the bolt at 55 thousand PSI.   It did not have anywhere to go. The gas blasted into the carrier and pushed it so hard that the carrier ruptured on the bottom, slipped off past the bolt cam, and blowing through the back of the gun -- and right past TBS's head.  As its blowing back, gas takes the path of least resistance I'd guess this creates lateral pressures that will in turn unlock the bolt. We've all seen AR-15 carriers split on the camp pin.  I've only seen a couple where the destruction to the carrier has been total, but even in such case, they sort of wedged open and "locked" in the tight fitting upper.   That action on a bit of plastic blows it appart.   On the Kel Tec gun, the carrier being aluminum, the structural failure occurs a lot easier, which means that all that energy is accelarating the chunk of steel out of the gun, instead of blowing down the magazine well. Having seen these pictures and the math on how the carrier's energy dump had it smacked TBS in the cranium, I will not own one of these until:  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to be a STEEL part; and (2) some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this. That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out.

Thanks for the great explanation.  I was unclear on what would cause the bolt to unlock without causing at least some visible lug damage.  The "lateral forces" you suggest explain it, I just wish I understood it better.  Your point about needing stronger containment is absolutey spot on.  I would not care to own this particular product.

Quoted: Quoted: Taggittyroo Edit to add; Check this out. Looks the same to me. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=81186 Samuel hmmm. interesting

Pretty slick huh? I bet that chamber is out. When you get it back you might want to consider running steel case through it to be safe.
Me myself, I wouldn't worry too much about it. I am sure it is going to come back good.
I got an old motorcycle helmet you can have (because I care about you bro).

On second thought I'll buy it from you so you don't need to worry about it


Samuel

Kudos to Kel-Tec, they could have told you to screw off.  I have not heard of any other Kb!s with the su-16 line, but it sure does not look like there is alot of material between the shooter and  the action to protect from this sort of thing.  But the same goes for 0a-93's, and some other guns.

Is the KT rated for 5.56?

..... On the Kel Tec gun, the carrier being aluminum, ..... .....  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to be a STEEL part; and (2) some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this. That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out.

The Carrier IS NOT aluminum, It is, and always has been STEEL.

nor is the PLR a new design. The same design has been in use  for many years in the SU-16 rifle. Not as many years as the AR-15 platform though.

Quoted: Glad the bolt flew past, not into to you.  My buddy recently had a Beretta 92F explosion with 9mm WWB.  Blew the primer and  bottom corner of brass case apart and damaged the slide.

thats it.

I'm not buying anymore winchester ammo.

I've had cyclic issues with their 9mm and .45 auto but blowing up guns takes the fucking cake. I'll stick with wolf!

Don't let the california Attorny General see this thread...

Again, I was correct.  I bet this lot of WCC brass has thin webs, just like the olf 1999 vintage American Eagle .223 Rem with 55 gr FMJ.

Quoted: ..... On the Kel Tec gun, the carrier being aluminum, ..... .....  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to be a STEEL part; and (2) some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this. That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out. The Carrier IS NOT aluminum, It is, and always has been STEEL. nor is the PLR a new design. The same design has been in use  for many years in the SU-16 rifle. Not as many years as the AR-15 platform though.

OK, I had thought TBS posted earlier in this thread that the carrier was alluminum.  If it's steel, then I would think the fix is a lot easier -- just add some appropriate gas venting so that the full blast of a ruptured case has somewhere to go.   Thing is, the carrier on that gun has a LOT of surface area, and its the more surface area is exposed to the blast, the more energy that hunk of metal absorbs.

The split on the bottom is obviously of concern... I wonder if the way that metal is bent down, if the rearward velocity didn't have that bit act as a steel ramp which launched the carrier up and out.  

Looking back, TBS did say it looked like aluminum to him on pg 9.   But if its steel, that gives me both relief in terms of confidence in the design, and concern in how badly the steel was thrashed in the blow out.   The gas has to be directed down through the magwell somehow.  

Even if it still ruins the gun, getting the gas away from being able to act on that massive frontal surface area would had to have helped here.  

Quoted: Don't let the california Attorny General see this thread...

Doesn't matter.  The PLR is an AW by Kali standards.  Mag inserts in location other than grip.  Also threaded barrel (I think).

I thought they made a Kali legal version as well?

Quoted: Quoted: ..... On the Kel Tec gun, the carrier being aluminum, ..... .....  (a) the bolt carrier is modified so as to be a STEEL part; and (2) some sort of steel cage or barrier is incorporated into the receiver to at least keep the bolt in the gun if there is an ammo failure such as this. That gun blew into little bits, and it freaks me the hell out. The Carrier IS NOT aluminum, It is, and always has been STEEL. nor is the PLR a new design. The same design has been in use  for many years in the SU-16 rifle. Not as many years as the AR-15 platform though. OK, I had thought TBS posted earlier in this thread that the carrier was alluminum.  If it's steel, then I would think the fix is a lot easier -- just add some appropriate gas venting so that the full blast of a ruptured case has somewhere to go.   Thing is, the carrier on that gun has a LOT of surface area, and its the more surface area is exposed to the blast, the more energy that hunk of metal absorbs. The split on the bottom is obviously of concern... I wonder if the way that metal is bent down, if the rearward velocity didn't have that bit act as a steel ramp which launched the carrier up and out.   Looking back, TBS did say it looked like aluminum to him on pg 9.   But if its steel, that gives me both relief in terms of confidence in the design, and concern in how badly the steel was thrashed in the blow out.   The gas has to be directed down through the magwell somehow.   Even if it still ruins the gun, getting the gas away from being able to act on that massive frontal surface area would had to have helped here.

The split might have been from gas venting into the carrier from the firing pin hole perhaps?  Just a theory as  I have not seen a su16 b/c assembly.

BTW PLRinmypocket is a KelTec Employee for those who do not know.  It is nice to have some company presence/interest in cases such as these.  

BeerSlayer, you have handled this above and beyond in many ways that most others would not.  Your professionalism has been outstanding.  I admire your conviction in standing behind KelTec based on personal past experience as well as reputation.  I too once had a KelTec 'issue' that I was tremendously surprised at their quality and level of service.  I had a new gun within 4 days turnaround.  In fact, I can honestly say I love my KelTec P3AT.

That being said, and with all do respect to you BeerSlayer, what right minded person would believe that if KelTec would have found a problem with their gun, that they would have reported it to you (or any non internal - high clearance personnel).  For them to admit it was their gun's fault to anyone outside their innermost circle of trust could be, as you put it, 'catastrophic' to their business.

Facts:
1) Gun Kaboomed

2) You are not certain of what may have caused it and you did as little as possible to manipulate anything that could hinder in an accurate investigation of what did in fact go wrong (that my friend, requires such nobility toward the cause it is completely remarkable.  You are a man of honesty and integrity and you demonstrate it by having the same faith in others)

3) KelTech obtains damaged guns and makes on of 2 possible determinations: (a) Ammo's fault, or (b) Gun's fault.  They chose "a".

4) They are completely replacing the pistol for you (something not commonly done in any market when fault did not lie within the company's product).  Truly if it were the ammo's fault, the could and should provide you with exceptional proof that can be taken back to the ammo maker and hold responsibility on them (which they did not).  To me, it seems like they'd rather make this an open/shut case, replace the gun, and let it lie... Mildly suspicious behaviour, but only suspicioius, not proof of anything

Questions to consider:
1) Will you ever get to see the FULL technical analysis report done by those technicians and have it verified for accuracy.

2)If it was the guns fault (a new design at that), it would be catastrophic to their business to have someone well known in in online world of combat weapons to have had a catastrophic failure and publically claim it was the guns fault.

Conclusion: I'm no expert on this matter, but I understand business, economics, and politics better than most of the greatest gun enthusiasts here.  I agree that KelTec has handled this with the utmost of grace and is doing what any of us would want.  I am merely stating here and now that I find no sufficient proof that the Gun was not at fault, and therefore, I do not believe that there is any way for us to ever know what the TRUE outcome was because that sort of thing can be hidden quite easily.

Like I said, I would stand behind them too, especially the way I personally have been treated by KelTech.  They have great people representing their products and great people offering customer service.  But we'll never know what kind of people made the ultimate decision to make the detrmination of the fault of the problem.  That kind of stuff is not discussed in their 'weekly town hall meeting' in the office.  There are probably 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 people that know for sure what happened, and for all we know, it's what they told us... or maybe not.

.

It is impossible that the pistol had excessive headspace since it was operating prior with no problems.  Excessive headspace would cause the first round to fail.

Likewise, if the lock-up surfaces wore rapidly, there would have been other problems the would have prevented lock-up.

Now this could be a problem with too much chamber mouth chamfer, coupled with brass that was a bit thin on the web.  But seeing how Kel-Tec utilizes CNC machinery (be it a hand-cut chamber, the chamber mouth radius is probably machined via CNC), it would be hard to see how this would happen.

The evidence is somewhere on the range where that cartridge head is hiding.  And the lot of ammo needs a looking at.  No, it is NOT due to excess propellent but weak brass.

Good job by Keltec in flat out replacing it, I love hearing the outcome of things like this and would definitely consider buying a Keltec in the future after reading how they dealt with the situation.

Quoted: .... 4) They are completely replacing the pistol for you (something not commonly done in any market when fault did not lie within the company's product).  Truly if it were the ammo's fault, the could and should provide you with exceptional proof that can be taken back to the ammo maker and hold responsibility on them (which they did not).  To me, it seems like they'd rather make this an open/shut case, replace the gun, and let it lie... Mildly suspicious behaviour, but only suspicioius, not proof of anything .....

ALL Kel-Tec products have a FULL Lifetime warranty. As long as it is operated correctly, It does not matter what the cause of the destruction of a pistol was, it will always be repaired or replaced, even if the ammo is at fault.

That is just the way our warranty works (which i believe is somewhat unique among firearms manufacturerers).

I'm sorry, but unless Winchester was loading their 5.56 with pistol powder, there is no way a gun should *detonate* like that from a case failure.

..

..

Cool.  I've never had an "In After The Lock" before.

IATL!

Quoted: update from Kel-tec Based on the weak case tests we did on the PLR, the Bolt carrier was modified in order to reduce the possible damage to the receiver caused by a ruptured case. Every new PLR16 has this modification, including your replacement PLR. Even without this modification, Kel-Tec stands behind the safety of the PLR-16. A case rupture is not a common occurrence.

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is customer service.

Maybe I'll have to order me one of these..

Kudos to Kel-tec.

Bravo Kel-Tec!!

I WILL be buying one of their rifles this year now for sure.

ETA  Almost forgot...   IATL!

Good to hear.



So...are you going to keep it?

If only they were NJ legal. I'm not sure that they are. If anyone from KelTec can confirm that one of these meets the NJ laws, I'll be in line to buy one.

Bravo.  I am impressed.  That is about all you can ask for in a response.

Quoted: There should be a rule about posts that include "Range Report" in the title. I keep clicking on them, and they're all about some guy taking stupid new gun somewhere and shooting it. Big whoop. I know a Range Report. I've read a Range Report. This, Sir, is no "Range Report!"

Amen!



ETA: Holy smokes!

Glad you're OK, TBS, and that Kel-Tec is handling this well.

I've been planning on getting one of their 9mm carbines that takes the Glock 19 mags. This is great customer service!

So  what kind of ammo was Beer_Slayer  using

Top fucking quality customer service!  

Not just to the guy who had a problem, but also to all future customers.  They can't control the quality of what people feed the guns (especially tough to figure out issues like weak brass as seems to have been the issue here).   But the can, and DID, look at their product and say:  "how can we make this thing handle that circumstance, i.e., a blown casing, any better?"

TBS:  Post pics of the mods to the Bolt carrier when you get the new gun, as I'm interested in seeing how they handled the challenge.  

Quoted: So  what kind of ammo was Beer_Slayer  using

Looked like an old batch of Q3131 ...not Q3131A.

Quoted: update from Kel-tec .... i have been told it shipped today and to expect it tomorrow. according to them a design change has also been made to the new guns. my original did not have this modification

Please tell me Winchester is going to hear about this.  PMC heard about some issues I had, though I never got my freaking refund.

I have one Kel-Tec in my safe;  A P32.

Looks like I will be getting more after this.

FYI
I personally have no experiance with Kel Tec, I do not at this time own a KT product,  but I am aware of their customer service.
A few years ago a close friend who is a Marshal "LEO" in my town carried a Kel Tec as a back up in an ankle holster. He came home one day and was in the process of securing his gun when he dropped it. Now everybody knows that LEOs NEVER make mistakes. Obviously some unknown force MADE him drop his gun because he would never have a case of slippery fingers!
The gun hit the floor in his home and discharged a round through the floor...
OOPS!
NO SERIOUS DAMAGE WAS DONE, with the obvious exception of a small hole in the floor giving ants the easy passage they prayed for.

He contacted KT, they took the matter VERY seriously! He sent the gun in and everything was handled with the utmost in professionalism. Based on his experiance I would have no problems owning a KT product.

They have a history of outstanding customer service and should be put at the top of everyones list of good guys.

looks like Kel-Tec just made a few more sales. I'll be keeping my eye open for the next PLR I see on sale.