Quoted: Quoted: Well, gee, it sure sounds like he was trying to force Catholicism on *her*. No, he was refusing to let her force her Secular Humanism on him.

That's funny, I thought that most Christian churches allowed birth control pills.  Episcopalians ban the pill?  How about Methodists?  Unitarians?  Jews?  (Better not mention Muslims, much less all the "Catholics" who use contraception in direct violation of what the Pope preaches!) Are they all "secular humanists"?

Seems like Catholics are the odd ducks out.

Moreover, how was she trying to force her views on him??  Did she make him take birth control pills?  Nope.  Did she insist that he allow his wife (assuming the idiot has one) to take them?  Does the Catholic Church require its members not to sell birth control pills, condoms, sponges?

Does the Catholic Church require its members to refuse to give people's prescriptions back so that they can get their prescriptions filled elsewhere??? If that's the case, then this is indeed an issue with the Catholic Church, not just one misguided nutcase of a member.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, gee, it sure sounds like he was trying to force Catholicism on *her*. No, he was refusing to let her force her Secular Humanism on him. That's funny, I thought that most Christian churches allowed birth control.  Episcopalians ban the pill?  How about Methodists?  Unitarians?  Jews?  (Better not mention Muslims, much less all the "Catholics" who use contraception in direct violation of what the Pope preaches!) Are they all "secular humanists"? Seems like Catholics are the odd ducks out.

What's your point? We aren't discussing any other religion.
Catholics who use contraception? There's sinners in every church. The concept of churches being attended solely by the "elect" has been thoroughly discredited and has never been part of Catholic doctrine. The Church is "catholic" - that is universal, open to everyone, sinner and saint alike.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, gee, it sure sounds like he was trying to force Catholicism on *her*. No, he was refusing to let her force her Secular Humanism on him. That's funny, I thought that most Christian churches allowed birth control.  Episcopalians ban the pill?  How about Methodists?  Unitarians?  Jews?  (Better not mention Muslims, much less all the "Catholics" who use contraception in direct violation of what the Pope preaches!) Are they all "secular humanists"? Seems like Catholics are the odd ducks out. What's your point? We aren't discussing any other religion. Catholics who use contraception? There's sinners in every church. The concept of churches being attended solely by the "elect" has been thoroughly discredited and has never been part of Catholic doctrine. The Church is "catholic" - that is universal, open to everyone, sinner and saint alike.

Ah.  So anyone who isn't a Catholic is a "secular humanist" in your book.  Sounds like you'd fit in pretty well with the Taliban.

ETA: for anyone who decides to look at the timestamps on my edits (e.g., FLAL1A, who seems to focus on minutiae rather than the major point), I should note that the red highlighting of "what the pope preaches" above was in the last edit I made.  Therefore he definitely saw the final version before making his post.

Quoted:  Does the Catholic Church require its members not to sell birth control pills, condoms, sponges? Does the Catholic Church require its members to refuse to give people's prescriptions back so that they can get their prescriptions filled elsewhere??? If that's the case, then this is indeed an issue with the Catholic Church, not just one misguided nutcase of a member.

Let's get this straight - GOD requires that we not participate in sin.

Quoted: Quoted:  Does the Catholic Church require its members not to sell birth control pills, condoms, sponges? Does the Catholic Church require its members to refuse to give people's prescriptions back so that they can get their prescriptions filled elsewhere??? If that's the case, then this is indeed an issue with the Catholic Church, not just one misguided nutcase of a member. Let's get this straight - [r]GOD[/r] requires that we not participate in sin.

So?  Whose god?  The Jews' "G-d"?  The Episcopalians' version of Jesus?  Allah?  Vishnu?  How about good old Ahura Mazda, the Zoroastrians' big guy?

The Pope's version is the only one who seems to care about contraception, as far as I know.  Yet you claim that this girl was "forcing her secular humanism on him".  Well, last time I looked, Jews weren't considered secular humanists;  they're part of the "Judeo-Christian" bunch.

Since you're narrowing it down to Catholics only, apparently you feel that Catholic rules trump everyone else's.  So how about answering:  does the Catholic Church require that the pharmacist refuse to transfer her prescription to another pharmacist?

The phamacist had every right not to sell to her. There is no law, legal or moral which requires someone to  provide a service to the don't want to serve.

Again, if the lady got pregnant, would the first doctor she sees have to perform an abortion?

Nope!!

He was wrong if he kept the prescription.

He's not forcing his beliefs on anybody, just living as he believes.

Kinda what makes America great.

Show me where in the catechisms of any of those religions you mentioned, it says anything like "birth control and sex outside the bounds of marriage are good things which we as [fill in religion here] highly encourage."

You won't find it, because it is only a tenent of secularism.

Quoted: Whoops my bad, I missed that.  Teach me to take the Evyliiin Sped Reddin course!

No worries.  I missed that he was a temp at first, and I didn't try to speed-read it.  Oh well.  It's 6:30am here, and I've been up for 22 hours.  Bedtime.

Quoted: Show me where in the catechisms of any of those religions you mentioned, it says anything like "birth control and sex outside the bounds of marriage are good things which we as [fill in religion here] highly encourage." You won't find it, because it is only a tenent of secularism.

Show me where the article says she wasn't married and was screwing around outside of marriage.  Also, show me where it says she has to follow your religion, or any religion for that matter.  I always thought this country had freedom of conscience;  you seem to feel it should be governed by religious law -- your religious law.

Quoted: The phamacist had every right not to sell to her. There is no law, legal or moral which requires someone to  provide a service to the don't want to serve. Again, if the lady got pregnant, would the first doctor she sees have to perform an abortion? Nope!! He was wrong if he kept the prescription. He's not forcing his beliefs on anybody, just living as he believes. Kinda what makes America great.

These two in red are mutually incompatible.  He was either wrong for keeping it or he wasn't forcing his beliefs on anybody.  Pick one.

Quoted: Since you're narrowing it down to Catholics only, apparently you feel that Catholic rules trump everyone else's.  So how about answering:  does the Catholic Church require that the pharmacist refuse to transfer her prescription to another pharmacist?

Geez, you are slow.
Repeat: GOD requires that we not participate in sin. What level of participation you choose to engage in is between you and the Almighty.

When anyone deals with me, I will strive to interact with them in a way that I believe The Lord finds pleasing, not in a way that would please Baal or any other.

His refusing to fill it was pushing his views on another person.

His refusing to transfer the script was in itself illegal.  He only had one motive when he refused to transfer.  

He was trying to enforce his views on the woman.


He'll be fired, He'll also either have his licence suspended or revoked.  Which is just,  He has no right to judge the actions, motives, or morality of patients that come in to get thier perscriptions filled.  

Just to make it clear to everyone, here's two relevant lines from the original article:

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — A former pharmacist said yesterday he refused to fill a college student's prescription for birth control pills or transfer it to another pharmacy because he did not want to commit a sin. The state Department of Regulation and Licensing accuses Mr. Noesen of unprofessional conduct for not transferring Miss Phiede's prescription.

First, this makes it clear that he refused to transfer the prescription.

Second, this makes it clear that he is being charged for refusing to transfer the prescription, not for refusing to supply the pills himself.

In short, he was not merely following his own religious dictates by refusing to fill it, he was holding her prescription hostage to his own whim, effectively forcing her to behave as his religion dictated.

The idiot deserves to have his license revoked at the least, IMHO.

Quoted: Quoted: Since you're narrowing it down to Catholics only, apparently you feel that Catholic rules trump everyone else's.  So how about answering:  does the Catholic Church require that the pharmacist refuse to transfer her prescription to another pharmacist? Geez, you are slow. Repeat: GOD requires that we not participate in sin. What level of participation you choose to engage in is between you and the Almighty. When anyone deals with me, I will strive to interact with them in a way that I believe The Lord finds pleasing, not in a way that would please Baal or any other.

Yes or no:  If you are the pharmacist, does GOD require you to take her prescription away from her and tell her to get lost?

How about an answer, instead of mumbo-jumbo about your version of the Almighty.  One word, "yes" or "no".  It's at most three characters.  I'm sure it won't strain you to type them, Mr, TacticalKerry,

Quoted: So what? He has no obligation to do anything for anybody. He can close the window and go home when he gets ready, without offending anything but his contract with his employer. He had no duty to fill the prescription, no duty to transfer the prescription, no duty to give her directions to the skating rink, no duty at all, except to his employer.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. (That had a tune when I said it in my head)

Medicine is above your average Wal-Mart excursion. If you come to me and ask for an abortion,  I am not required to give you one, but I AM REQUIRED TO HELP YOU FIND SOME ONE WHO IS WILLING!!!!!! If he gives her the prescription back, no harm no foul and he will just be punished by K-Mart for bringing the pulpit to the counter. The SECOND he refuses to transfer or hand her the handy little prescription (Which is a legal document) back, he has violated his responsibility as a pharmacist. He should lose his abilty to practice.

And as far as contriception being abortion. YOU COULD NOT BE ANY WRONGER ON THE WRONGINGEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU HAD AN ELECTRIFIED WRONGING MACHINE!!! Birth control pills stop OVULATION. Not Implantation. It's no more abortion than masturbation.
tony

What difference does it make what I would do? I wasn't there.


Should you hold the door for a bank robber? Or hold his gun while he loads up the bags? Should I say "No, but Fred will load the bags with money for you"?

Or should I trip him?

Quoted: What difference does it make what I would do? I wasn't there.

You stuck your nose into the argument.  If you didn't have a point or an opinion, then you didn't need to hit the "submit" button, Mr. Kerry.

Now that I've gotten your PLAN! to deal with the situation, I'm going to bed.  Wake me after the election.

Quoted: Birth control pills stop OVULATION. Not Implantation. It's no more abortion than masturbation. tony

Gasp!  The sin of Onan!  Good catch, BTW.  And good night.  Er, morning.

Quoted: Quoted: Birth control pills stop OVULATION. Not Implantation. It's no more abortion than masturbation. tony Gasp!  The sin of Onan!  Good catch, BTW.  And good night.  Er, morning.

Actually, 71-Hour_Achmed, you are right in some of your arguments.

But the "sin of Onan" wasn't masterbation.

It was failing to impregnate his dead brother's wife so that his brother would have an heir.

Other than that, good night to you.

The man refused to do his job. It was a job where he knew that birth control would be an EXTREMELY common Rx before getting into it. If he was unwilling to fulfill his duties, he never should have entered that profession. Very unprofessional... he should either do his job or quit (and if he won't he should be fired)

If God doesn't allow you to perform a sin, you shouldn't be taking jobs where the sin is in the JOB DESCRIPTION. e.g.:
You woudln't have a devout Catholic agree to work for Planned Parenthood and then refuse to do thier job for moral reasons when they knew what was involved with the job before hand. They would be fired and rightly so.

Unless his Phramicists License and State Law allows him to refuse pharmacological (medical) services such as a transfer prescription (since he was refusing to fill it directly, HE REFUSED TO ALLOW ANYONE ELSE TO FILL THE SCRIPT!!!) AND unless his empoyers policies allowed him to refuse customer's doctor's orders based on morality, then he was in the wrong and an ASSHOLE and fire his arrogant ass.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He didn't push shit on anybody, and suggesting that he did is an indication of fuzzy thinking or outright loutishness. The guy declined to sell some merchandise. Period. He didn't force or require the woman to do anything, anymore than a gun shop owner who declines a sale because a potential customer doesn't seem quite right is forcing his beliefs on the disappointed buyer. bullshit! he also refused to transfer her prescription. So what? He has no obligation to do anything for anybody. He can close the window and go home when he gets ready, without offending anything but his contract with his employer. He had no duty to fill the prescription, no duty to transfer the prescription, no duty to give her directions to the skating rink, no duty at all, except to his employer.

I don't know, but do pharmacists have to adhere to the Hippocratic Oath?

Quoted: If you come to me and ask for an abortion,  I am not required to give you one, but I AM REQUIRED TO HELP YOU FIND SOME ONE WHO IS WILLING!!!!!!

No, you aren't. You are entirely justified in saying "I don't provide that service," and leaving it at that.

If he gives her the prescription back, no harm no foul and he will just be punished by K-Mart for bringing the pulpit to the counter. The SECOND he refuses to transfer or hand her the handy little prescription (Which is a legal document) back, he has violated his responsibility as a pharmacist. He should lose his abilty to practice.

I guessed from the article that she was seeking a refill on an "on file" prescription, not that she showed up with a piece of paper which he refused to return to her, or that there was even a piece of paper in a folder somewhere to deliver to her. If she handed him a piece of paper which he refused to honor, he should have given it back. Otherwise, he doesn't have to transfer the prescription, he doesn't have to call 911 if she has a seizure in front of his counter, he doesn' have to do anything at all to or for her.

far as contriception being abortion. YOU COULD NOT BE ANY WRONGER ON THE WRONGINGEST AY OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU HAD AN ELECTRIFIED WRONGING MACHINE!!! Birth control pills stop OVULATION. Not Implantation. It's no more abortion than masturbation. tony

OK, fine. Even so (as I said) there are many people, including the Pope, who believe that contraception is a moral evil of  gravity equivalent to that of abortion. Whatever his objection may have been, it is tough shit for people he refuses to serve. If he wants to honor only prescriptions for horse liniment, that's his business for the three days the pharmacy will stay open. Until he undertakes to provide a service to a given individual, the guy has no duty of any kind to anyone. If he fills a prescription, he's obliged to fill it correctly, but he's not obliged to fill it in the first place.

His employer has a legitimate gripe about his failure to promote its interests by selling drugs; a customer he refuses to serve has no complaint at all. The people who have ranted in this thread about "imposing" on others are out to lunch. Inaction can never be an imposition on the rights of another. Take the action of sitting in the middle of a hallway in a public building, and you're imposing on others; play your favorite Ludacris CD at 150 dB outside your neighbors' house at 2 AM and you're imposing on them; refuse to do business with them, and there is no imposition. The imposition comes in the form of insisting that opening a place of business obliges you to do the bidding of anyone who comes through the door.

I personally don't give a shit one way or the other about contraception. My only quarrel with it is that it seems to be used most by people who would otherwise be bringing productive citizens into the world, while those who breed human leeches seem never to have encountered the concept. My quarrel in this thread is with the profound stupidity that equates a refusal to cooperate with an imposition, and the notion that merely doing business in a given trade obligates the tradesman to do any business with all comers.

Quoted: I guessed from the article that she was seeking a refill on an "on file" prescription, not that she showed up with a piece of paper which he refused to return to her, or that there was even a piece of paper in a folder somewhere to deliver to her. If she handed him a piece of paper which he refused to honor, he should have given it back. Otherwise, he doesn't have to transfer the prescription

There is always paper whether it's onfile or she handed to him. Either way, he refused to return the document whether she gave it to the pharmacy 5 minutes or 5 months ago.

He doesn't have to transfer the script?????

So if if the pharmacist wishes, he can steal a customers prescription and force them to go back to their doctor and have the doctor have to call and confirm with the pharmacist what he's done (that his patient isn't trying for a double script) so he can write her a new prescription? That's horseshit!

Quoted: Only in California ... wait this happened in Wisconsin. Never mind. No religion was "pushed", nobody got their feelings "hurt", the girl just needed to walk across the street to murder her un-born.

How the fuck is she "murdering her unborn" if the whole point of oral contraception is to make it so the ovaries don't release an egg to be fertilized in the first place???  

Quoted: Quoted: He didn't push shit on anybody, and suggesting that he did is an indication of fuzzy thinking or outright loutishness. The guy declined to sell some merchandise. Period. He didn't force or require the woman to do anything, anymore than a gun shop owner who declines a sale because a potential customer doesn't seem quite right is forcing his beliefs on the disappointed buyer. bullshit! he also refused to transfer her prescription.

+1, he went too far. He imposed his morals on her when he refused to allow another pharmacist to help her.  He also interfered with the doctor's medical practice. I have no problem with that, just pull his license and put him on the street, because he violalated the public's trust.  He is still free to practice his predatory religion on the willing, just not with a public license.

deleted spoke too soon

Quoted: i am against any institution that tries to enslave the minds of their fellow man through violence, intimidation, superstion, ignorance, and popery.

Which institution did this?

SGatr15

Quoted: Dumbass's probably don't know sometimes Birth Control pills are used for other medical treatment OTHER Than sexual relations.

That question was asked by the man working.


SGatr15

So how many kids do some of you guys have????  Are you the ones who dont believe in condoms as well???

The Pharmacist is a total fucktard and deserves to get bitch slaped. It would have been a completely different story if he gave back the prescription and let her get it somewhere else.

I have 2 gifts from God.

What about you?

SGatr15

If he refused to give her back the prescription then that is wrong. I'm not going to argue beyond that with the Catholic bashing troll.

Quoted: I have 2 gifts from God. What about you? SGatr15

none I am only 19, and I wouldnt want a kid right now and thats why I use condoms and the girl uses birth control

Quoted: Quoted: I have 2 gifts from God. What about you? SGatr15 none I am only 19, and I wouldnt want a kid right now and thats why I use condoms and the girl uses birth control

How do you think I got the first child?


Sgatr15

Quoted: He should lose his license.

+1 BUH BYE!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have 2 gifts from God. What about you? SGatr15 none I am only 19, and I wouldnt want a kid right now and thats why I use condoms and the girl uses birth control How do you think I got the first child? Sgatr15

by not doing what I do?

Quoted: by not doing what I do?

Nope....


SGtar15

Quoted: Quoted: by not doing what I do? Nope.... SGtar15

allright I give up, what?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: by not doing what I do? Nope.... SGtar15 allright I give up, what?

I used a condom and she used the pill.


Condom had a blow out and I guess I have very strong swimmers.


Now I have a wonderful baby boy.(17 y.o. btw)


SGatr15

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: by not doing what I do? Nope.... SGtar15 allright I give up, what? I used a condom and she used the pill. Condom had a blow out and I guess I have very strong swimmers. Now I have a wonderful baby boy.(17 y.o. btw) SGatr15

Well lets hope that never happens to me because I will be faced with a big moral delema

Quoted: Well lets hope that never happens to me because I will be faced with a big moral delema

What moral dilemma would that be?

Taking responsibility for your action or killing a child?


Did you actually think that birth control was fool proof?


SGatr15

Quoted: Quoted: Well lets hope that never happens to me because I will be faced with a big moral delema What moral dilemma would that be? Taking responsibility for your action or killing a child? Did you actually think that birth control was fool proof? SGatr15

My convictions are not yet strong enough on the issue to sway to either side just yet.  I might sound like a heartless ahole but they just arent.  I guess it would take such a situation to push me.

Quoted: My convictions are not yet strong enough on the issue to sway to either side just yet.  I might sound like a heartless ahole but they just arent.  I guess it would take such a situation to push me.

WHy don't you ask your mother and see how she would feel if she aborted you.

See what she says.

SGtar15

Quoted: I guessed from the article that she was seeking a refill on an "on file" prescription, not that she showed up with a piece of paper which he refused to return to her, or that there was even a piece of paper in a folder somewhere to deliver to her. If she handed him a piece of paper which he refused to honor, he should have given it back. Otherwise, he doesn't have to transfer the prescription, he doesn't have to call 911 if she has a seizure in front of his counter, he doesn' have to do anything at all to or for her.

Bzzzzt, sorry, wrong answer.

Medicine isn't selling donuts or guns.  You go into a medical field, you either accept that you have a duty to perform your job or you go into something else.  If someone requires medication, you dispense it.  If a crack whore comes into your ER, you treat her and stabilize her.  Don't like it?  Pick another job.

If you're a Jain who thinks that bacteria are sacred, and so you won't sell antibiotics, then bugger off and go grow vegetables.

The pharmacy board thinks that he violated the terms of his license in refusing to transfer the prescription.  Glad you're not on the board.  Hope I never have to deal with a nasty buzzard like yourself, either as a neighbor or as a service provider.  I spend some time in Florida, mostly between Tampa and Sarasota;  do me a favor and let me know how to avoid you.

Quoted: Quoted: My convictions are not yet strong enough on the issue to sway to either side just yet.  I might sound like a heartless ahole but they just arent.  I guess it would take such a situation to push me. WHy don't you ask your mother and see how she would feel if she aborted you. See what she says. SGtar15

My mother hates what if questions and I am not kidding you

Quoted: fire the fucker.

+1

My wife is a pharmacist in CA. She has the right to refuse to fill a prescription, but rarely invokes it. Mostly when she suspects a forgery or it is from a doctor everyone knows is selling prescriptions for controlled substances. She never says she is "refusing" to fill their prescription. She usually just says they are out of it at the moment. If they are forgeries or druggies then they leave rather than ask her to order it overnight.

That being said, my wife is against abortion, but does not consider it her moral problem to fill the prescription. That is between the doctor, patient, and God. Also, some women take the pill for non birth control reasons.

The pharmacist in the article should never have become a retail pharmacist in the first place knowing he would have this problem. How he ever got past his internship is beyond me.

Quoted: Quoted: If you come to me and ask for an abortion,  I am not required to give you one, but I AM REQUIRED TO HELP YOU FIND SOME ONE WHO IS WILLING!!!!!! No, you aren't. You are entirely justified in saying "I don't provide that service," and leaving it at that.

Are you a doctor? Anything close? I guess you missed my point about medicine being above Wal-Mart. I AM required to help you find someone to give you an abortion. When you hang a shingle out, you are elevating yourself above the populace. I have a responsibility to ANY that come see me. Medicine is bigger than you or I.
He should have transferred the script.
tony

Quoted: Quoted: So what? He has no obligation to do anything for anybody. He can close the window and go home when he gets ready, without offending anything but his contract with his employer. He had no duty to fill the prescription, no duty to transfer the prescription, no duty to give her directions to the skating rink, no duty at all, except to his employer. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. (That had a tune when I said it in my head) Medicine is above your average Wal-Mart excursion. If you come to me and ask for an abortion,  I am not required to give you one, but I AM REQUIRED TO HELP YOU FIND SOME ONE WHO IS WILLING!!!!!!

tony's right here folks, this is definitely true for doctors, I don't know how true it is for pharmacists as far as they have to tell you where else to go, but I will page a real live pharmacist and see if he will chime in on this thread.

If he gives her the prescription back, no harm no foul and he will just be punished by K-Mart for bringing the pulpit to the counter. The SECOND he refuses to transfer or hand her the handy little prescription (Which is a legal document) back, he has violated his responsibility as a pharmacist. He should lose his abilty to practice.

I'm going to have to agree that the cardinal sin (no pun intended) here was refusing to transfer the scrip:  I view it as a case of property rights:  the prescription is her property and he has held it and refused to release it, when it legally belongs to her.

So the refusing to fill I believe should not be actionable by the licensing board (but KMart can kick his tail all they want), however, when he refused to release to her something that belonged to her, legally (that is, the prescription, whether it was on file or whether she'd just handed it to him), I'd say not only has he f*ed up, but broken the law.  I really truly hate to see someone get punished for exercising their religious beliefs, but this guy crossed the line.  He will probably lose his license, and rightly so.

And as far as contriception being abortion. YOU COULD NOT BE ANY WRONGER ON THE WRONGINGEST DAY OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU HAD AN ELECTRIFIED WRONGING MACHINE!!! Birth control pills stop OVULATION. Not Implantation. tony

Seriously though, there are many NONcatholic Christians (evangelicals) who believe that using the pill is wrong because it CAN prevent implantation...I was surprised to hear this, having grown up in church all my life, but apparently it's true.