THIS IS SCARY!! ATF ARRESTS MAN ON MACHINEGUN CHARGE BECAUSE OF SLAM-FIRE - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - THIS IS SCARY!! ATF ARRESTS MAN ON MACHINEGUN CHARGE BECAUSE OF SLAM-FIRE (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:44:12 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Yer expecting ATF to know anything about guns?

Pfffffff.

They only know about television cameras.

Then how come the '5 or 6' cameras that were being used to film 'Operation Showtime' at Mount Carmel all seemed to fail on February 28, 1993?

I mean, not one tape made it through?

So much for their knowledge of cameras!

Eric The(NeverForget)Hun

They "know" enuf about cameras to also make them fail at the appropriate moments.

Posted: 8/19/2005 10:44:44 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

......

The good news from the FOPA of 1986, is that, in 'forfeiture' cases, the 'prevailing party' SHALL be awarded attorney's fees.

So, whatever his attorney might charge him, or the costs involved, IF a suit must be filed and expenses incurred, they shall all be reimbursed by the government agency involved.

Simple as that.

Eric The(SeldomLitigious)Hun

I guess I'll conceid that the article doesn't say it specifically, but I would have a hard time believing that he really wants them back but has made no effeort to have them returned. I also know that agencies can find all kinds of reasons why property can't be returned like it was supposed to be.

I can't speak directly to the provisions, but it's certainly not hard ot imagine the ATF and JD saying "make us" when it comes time to collect your legal fees. They do that with the full understanding that it will cost you more to obtain a final judgement than you have to put up. Federal cort is what... a minumum of $10,000 to even get started.

Hell not too long ago the state of Kansas had a judgement entered against them by a man who filed suit over a wrongful conviction and they simply said.... "kiss off". They didn't "have the budget" and he's never gotten his check. Who's going to MAKE them give it to him?

Posted: 8/19/2005 11:17:42 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Why does this organization even exist?
Why doesn't Bush put someone in charge who is pro-2nd amendment?

Bush has been in office nearly five years, and ATF is still out of control????

Your one trick pony sideshow is growing tiresome.

Thank you, that is all.

Have a nice day!

Posted: 8/19/2005 11:27:49 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Your one trick pony sideshow is growing tiresome.

Thank you, that is all.

Have a nice day!

So is the ATF.

Posted: 8/19/2005 11:34:27 AM EDT

[#5]

WTF!?

It's illegal for someone to wire your house without and electricians licenese, but anyone can be a ATF JBT

, hell, he probably doesn't know the difference between cocaine and baking soda.

Posted: 8/19/2005 11:49:53 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

BATFEces

Posted: 8/19/2005 12:50:10 PM EDT

[#7]

So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...

Posted: 8/19/2005 12:55:00 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...

No, the POINT is that the slamfire was because of a BROKEN part, not because of a conversion. If the agent had any sense about him at all, he would have immediately gone looking for the internal FA parts by disassembling the weapon. If he wants to do his job and not set up innocent people with malfunctioning rifles, that's what he'd do.
I have to wonder where in our replies you found the belief that an unregistered FA kit was legal

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:04:25 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...

Wow, you sure can twist the facts with the best of em, huh?

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:12:19 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Well, if you had assault rifles, you DID have machineguns.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:12:59 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...

Wow, you sure can twist the facts with the best of em, huh?

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.......

I have some friends who work for ATF and have worked with ATF agents during my job. Most, not all, a great guys but they do not know a lot about firearms which seems odd to me. I think ATF needs to change their focus and tactics, but I got a feeling MGs are going to become a higher priority now with all the veterans coming back from Iraq. Weapons seem to find there way home during every war.

Prior to me leaving me last agency, we had a 19 year old Army kid get caught with 6 AK receivers. Last time I checked, he was heading down the "smelly" creek without a boat!!!

Regarding this story, sounds like ATF really dropped the ball on not doing a proper investigation. A simple disassembly would have revealed the problem from the start.

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:20:12 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...

Wow, you sure can twist the facts with the best of em, huh?

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.......

.....

Well I hope so.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:20:46 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
They don't need search warrents around "cooperative" people.

Precisely!

Had our friend TacticalStrat simply said, 'No' to the officers, that answer would have been the grounds used for obtaining the search warrant!

Wanna bet?

Eric The(FastAndLooseWithTheBillOfRights)Hun

Yeah but when they came back, instead of simply asking about the guns they would have probably burned the whole place down first, then examined the remains of the weapons gathered from the ashes. Ya gots to pick your poison.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:21:29 PM EDT

[#14]

The guy that the article is about is a member on the FALFiles. He goes by the name of Moses. Here is a link to the thread over there. link He was somewhat pissed about the whole thing.

A quote from Moses
The rifle in question never doubled on me and I shot it in numerous matches.

The atf got it to double by putting the selector on FA and trying many different types of ammo until they found one with a super soft primer that would double when the hammer followed the bolt home

At the actual test firing that we conducted there were 12 tests with 4 types of ammo and only the Winchester hunting 308 doubled and it did it only twice.

The problem was a worn out firing pin spring.

I never tried to shoot the fal with the selector on FA for the obvious reason of knowing that it could only fire out of battery that to do so would be risking a dangerous outcome.
I also would never shoot expensive hunting ammo $15 a box of 20.

The HTS set (DSA) was not doubling

I work with a Class 2 manf. and I have no reason to shoot a illegal MG we have all the legal ones we could ever need.

The ATF agent that confiscated my FAL's did not do the test he took the rifles to the tech branch in DC where they were "tested"

After many months and $ my lawyer, expert witness and I got to do our test with the ATF and we video taped it and that is when the truth was shown.

A local gun dealer here in NC By the name of Dan D. who for some reason did not like me actually turned the ATF my way by telling them a bunch of lies.

After the many man hours spent on my behalf I think the atf just tried to salvage a conviction of an innocent person to justify all the time spent in their investigation of me.

It is a long story but this sheds light on the jist of it.

I just this week was given back my property except for the one rifle that malfunctoned.

Thanks to dilegent work by my Lawyer.

(mods: if the link to the FALFiles is not allowed please delete)

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:25:50 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...
No, the POINT is that the slamfire was because of a BROKEN part...

Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:31:33 PM EDT

[#16]

tag

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:33:50 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Why does this organization even exist?
Why doesn't Bush put someone in charge who is pro-2nd amendment?

The BATF had it's heyday during alcohol prohibition. When alcoholic beverages became legal again; this huge Federal agency behaved like all bureaucracies and rather than quiety wither away they found a new population of criminals. Gun owners.

If they do not find crime, they cannot get funding; simple as that. So they invent crimes. Destroying a gun-owning citizen is nothing to them against maintaining the organization and rising within it.

Regards,
Mild Bill

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:38:54 PM EDT

[#18]

I wonder how the hell these people sleep at night. How the hell can you live in life knowing you are destroying the constitution and such archaic laws?

Theyre nothing but wannabe nazis.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:40:19 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So are slam fire conversions legal now? Where is that pesky disconnector...
No, the POINT is that the slamfire was because of a BROKEN part...

Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Exactly right. If I were a betting man, I'd say that John Glover didn't really know how to go about repairing the weapon, if he had experienced the malfunction before the BATFE agent made the witness.
Do you think it is proper to try to set up this guy with a malfunctioning rifle as a man knowingly owning an unregistered and illegally created NFA item? IMO, maybe the agents should be trying to HELP the ignorant owners instead of sail them up the creek. Show them "You have a broken part, this is the part that's broken, here's how to fix it, now fix it." The agent then logs the correspondance. No federal case needed.
Oh, that depends upon the agent knowing MORE about the firearm than the ignorant owner, which is obviously an unrealistic rexpectation.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:43:53 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Cooney admitted that he had never even disassembled and inspected the rifle, but had written his report based on test-firing the weapon. Savage then disassembled it on camera, displaying the broken parts, as the BATFE agent fell silent, looking increasingly embarrassed.
As he should. He almost destroyed a man’s life, and he didn’t even know what he was doing.

“The prosecutor dropped all charges when I filed motions that would have shown a Federal Judge the tape and the real reasons for the multiple firings,” Whitesides says.

If you fuck up the burgers at McDonalds they fire you.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:48:54 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Who else was rooting for "catastrophic failure" as Mr. JBT was firing the weapon?

I was. Am I a bad person?

Nope. I was rooting for it too. I can unequivocally state that ATF agents are some of the most ignorant, worthless douche-bags I have ever had the displeasure to work with in my law enforcement career.

Sheep

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:51:55 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Oh what a bag of horseshit. My SKS can double anytime the FP gets dirty and a little sticky with the right/wrong ammo. Did i fucking "convert" it. No. I had to spend some time to figure out what the issue was too. I guess I should have thrown it down and run screaming from it, since I was going to have to fire it more than once to figure it out.

Much like the guy in the article I just don't let my FP get too nasty, so it's not an issue but it can happen again. It's the design of the rifle.

Removing the disco is world a away from having a double with a particular type of ammo and a weak FP spring. Yeah, were all arguing for converted full-auto here.

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:55:00 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Wow waste my fucking money arresting harmless shooters. I bet I could find 10 times as many gang bangers and dealers with illegal guns each day. What the hell is going on with the ATF?

It's hard going after gang bangers. It's easy harrassing innocent citizens.

Same pay, lot easier work.

God forbid they go into the Ghetto or Projects and arrest hoodlums with felony warrants.

God forbid that ATFE for ONE fucking day actually chase down criminals. What an asshole. They arent' "all" bad I'm sure.......but they certainly got a reputation out there. ATFE - another example of why our federal bureacracy is fucked.....

Posted: 8/19/2005 1:57:00 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Oh what a bag of horseshit. My SKS can double anytime the FP gets dirty and a little sticky with the right/wrong ammo. Did i fucking "convert" it. No. I had to spend some time to figure out what the issue was too. I guess I should have thrown it down and run screaming from it, since I was going to have to fire it more than once to figure it out.

Much like the guy in the article I just don't let my FP get too nasty, so it's not an issue but it can happen again. It's the design of the rifle.

Removing the disco is world a away from having a double with a particular type of ammo and a weak FP spring. Yeah, were all arguing for converted full-auto here.

OK.....maybe he was not being sarcastic

Semper Fi,
ASO544

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:01:46 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
makes me scared to try bumpfiring

why? Mr. JBT will try and reproduce the function in a test and won't be able to.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:05:17 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
makes me scared to try bumpfiring

why? Mr. JBT will try and reproduce the function in a test and won't be able to.

Then they will confiscate the thumb as well as the gun. Then fix the thumb on a solid object and see if they can get the same results. Then the thumb is declared an unregistered machine gun and will be destroyed and owner sent to 10 years of Federal prison.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:10:00 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
makes me scared to try bumpfiring

why? Mr. JBT will try and reproduce the function in a test and won't be able to.

if he practices the bump, he could make every rifle he tests seem to go fa

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:14:33 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
makes me scared to try bumpfiring

why? Mr. JBT will try and reproduce the function in a test and won't be able to.

Then they will confiscate the thumb as well as the gun. Then fix the thumb on a solid object and see if they can get the same results. Then the thumb is declared an unregistered machine gun and will be destroyed and owner sent to 10 years of Federal prison.

Well, if shoe strings can.......

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:16:10 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Why did you allow them to inspect your weapons? Without a warrant, that is. Or was your busines an FFL, giving them the right?

I just saw where you answered this, so sorry for the dupe question, but now my question becomes:

Who is going to stand up and say "Get a warrant"? I guarantee I am going to.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:28:42 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
The guy that the article is about is a member on the FALFiles. He goes by the name of Moses. Here is a link to the thread over there. link He was somewhat pissed about the whole thing.

A quote from Moses
The rifle in question never doubled on me and I shot it in numerous matches.

The atf got it to double by putting the selector on FA and trying many different types of ammo until they found one with a super soft primer that would double when the hammer followed the bolt home

At the actual test firing that we conducted there were 12 tests with 4 types of ammo and only the Winchester hunting 308 doubled and it did it only twice.

The problem was a worn out firing pin spring.

I never tried to shoot the fal with the selector on FA for the obvious reason of knowing that it could only fire out of battery that to do so would be risking a dangerous outcome.
I also would never shoot expensive hunting ammo $15 a box of 20.

The HTS set (DSA) was not doubling

I work with a Class 2 manf. and I have no reason to shoot a illegal MG we have all the legal ones we could ever need.

The ATF agent that confiscated my FAL's did not do the test he took the rifles to the tech branch in DC where they were "tested"

After many months and $ my lawyer, expert witness and I got to do our test with the ATF and we video taped it and that is when the truth was shown.

A local gun dealer here in NC By the name of Dan D. who for some reason did not like me actually turned the ATF my way by telling them a bunch of lies.

After the many man hours spent on my behalf I think the atf just tried to salvage a conviction of an innocent person to justify all the time spent in their investigation of me.

It is a long story but this sheds light on the jist of it.

I just this week was given back my property except for the one rifle that malfunctoned.

Thanks to dilegent work by my Lawyer.

(mods: if the link to the FALFiles is not allowed please delete)

In this case, "following the hammer home" was illegal and considered a machinegun by the BATF. Otherwise, why did they try to procesecute Moses and they won't return the gun?

The "disconnecter" can be removed from almost any semi-auto firearm, which would cause the hammer to follow the bolt home on a live round. That would constitute "a readily convertible machinegun" for nearly every semi-auto on the market. I would bet I could take 50% of the semi-autos on the market, remove the disconnecter and try a few dozen times and get a few doubles. This would mean nearly every semi-auto on the market is an illegal machinegun, subject to confiscation and prosecution.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:37:48 PM EDT

[#31]

I bought a global Trades AKM that was happy to give me two and three round bursts even after it had suppsoedly been fixed.

Of course, it would Jam after avery second or thrid burst.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:40:00 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Why did you allow them to inspect your weapons? Without a warrant, that is. Or was your busines an FFL, giving them the right?

I just saw where you answered this, so sorry for the dupe question, but now my question becomes:

Who is going to stand up and say "Get a warrant"? I guarantee I am going to.

You gotta pick your battles wisely. In this particular case, it was not worthwhile to challenge the ATF and tell them to fook-off and get a warrant. I knew once I explained it to them and showed them the guns, that would be the end of it. The "get a fooking warrant" option-B could have resulted in many hassles for me. Who wants to have their door kicked in, their home and office thrashed in a search, and their guns "confiscated for testing". Then possibly have to spend $20K+ in legal bills to get my guns back, and then IF I get my guns back, the guns are all fooked up (rust, dents/scratches). And who knows what else?? Take your pick. I'll choose option A everytime.

My business wasn't a FFL dealer.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:47:09 PM EDT

[#33]

Johnny is a good guy. Built me a fine FAL. Maybe now we will be seeing him again at the Charlotte shows. I hope so.

Great news John.

Posted: 8/19/2005 2:54:46 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Why did you allow them to inspect your weapons? Without a warrant, that is. Or was your busines an FFL, giving them the right?

I just saw where you answered this, so sorry for the dupe question, but now my question becomes:

Who is going to stand up and say "Get a warrant"? I guarantee I am going to.

You gotta pick your battles wisely. In this particular case, it was not worthwhile to challenge the ATF and tell them to fook-off and get a warrant. I knew once I explained it to them and showed them the guns, that would be the end of it. The "get a fooking warrant" option-B could have resulted in many hassles for me. Who wants to have their door kicked in, their home and office thrashed in a search, and their guns "confiscated for testing". Then possibly have to spend $20K+ in legal bills to get my guns back, and then IF I get my guns back, the guns are all fooked up (rust, dents/scratches). And who knows what else?? Take your pick. I'll choose option A everytime.

My business wasn't a FFL dealer.

I am not flaming you, you made the best decision at the time and I am not going to second guess you.

My point is that the ATF feels like they can run rampant over people, and coerce them into searches and such with no justification.

Someone called them and said "he had machineguns" would not even be probable cause for a warrant.

I am not saying that I would say "get a fooking warrant, you f-troop pig", but I am saying that I would respond that they are incorrect, I have no machine guns, please contact my attorney if you need further assistance. And walk away.

This course of action should not cause any undue difficulty, and also not allow the government to effect searches and 4th amendment violations by coercion or threat of repercussions.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:45:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Why did you allow them to inspect your weapons? Without a warrant, that is. Or was your busines an FFL, giving them the right?

I just saw where you answered this, so sorry for the dupe question, but now my question becomes:

Who is going to stand up and say "Get a warrant"? I guarantee I am going to.

You gotta pick your battles wisely. In this particular case, it was not worthwhile to challenge the ATF and tell them to fook-off and get a warrant. I knew once I explained it to them and showed them the guns, that would be the end of it. The "get a fooking warrant" option-B could have resulted in many hassles for me. Who wants to have their door kicked in, their home and office thrashed in a search, and their guns "confiscated for testing". Then possibly have to spend $20K+ in legal bills to get my guns back, and then IF I get my guns back, the guns are all fooked up (rust, dents/scratches). And who knows what else?? Take your pick. I'll choose option A everytime.

My business wasn't a FFL dealer.

I am not flaming you, you made the best decision at the time and I am not going to second guess you.

My point is that the ATF feels like they can run rampant over people, and coerce them into searches and such with no justification.

Someone called them and said "he had machineguns" would not even be probable cause for a warrant.

I am not saying that I would say "get a fooking warrant, you f-troop pig", but I am saying that I would respond that they are incorrect, I have no machine guns, please contact my attorney if you need further assistance. And walk away.

This course of action should not cause any undue difficulty, and also not allow the government to effect searches and 4th amendment violations by coercion or threat of repercussions.

I would love to say that. And you're 100 correct, you shouldn't fear exercising your rights. It's sad that the reality is the abusers of power will make you suffer for exercising what is within your right. Very very sad indeed.

I did not think you were flaming me. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:51:35 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
About 20 years ago I owned a business and had about 10 preban assault rifles (AR15's, FAL, Valmet, Galil etc.) hanging on the wall in my office. I guess someone told the ATF that I had "Machineguns" in my office. One morning when I get to work, there are two ATF agents and a sheriff deputy waiting for me. They told me they had a report that I owned machineguns and they wanted to talk to me. I said sure and I'll be glad to show you guys the guns. So we go in my office and all the guns are hanging there. I explain to them that they are all semi-autos. They asked if they could inspect them. I say it's ok. Here's what they did to confirm whether the guns were machineguns or not. They check to see if the selector rotated to where the auto position would be. Then (w/ selector in the semi position) they cycled the bolt by hand while holding the trigger to see if the hammer either and I quote "follow the bolt home or snapped when the bolt locked". They did not ask to look inside or disassemble any of the guns. BTW, they also measured the barrel on a Ithaca Riot shotgun I had. They said everything looks OK and left.

Why did you allow them to inspect your weapons? Without a warrant, that is. Or was your busines an FFL, giving them the right?

I just saw where you answered this, so sorry for the dupe question, but now my question becomes:

Who is going to stand up and say "Get a warrant"? I guarantee I am going to.

You gotta pick your battles wisely. In this particular case, it was not worthwhile to challenge the ATF and tell them to fook-off and get a warrant. I knew once I explained it to them and showed them the guns, that would be the end of it. The "get a fooking warrant" option-B could have resulted in many hassles for me. Who wants to have their door kicked in, their home and office thrashed in a search, and their guns "confiscated for testing". Then possibly have to spend $20K+ in legal bills to get my guns back, and then IF I get my guns back, the guns are all fooked up (rust, dents/scratches). And who knows what else?? Take your pick. I'll choose option A everytime.

My business wasn't a FFL dealer.

I am not flaming you, you made the best decision at the time and I am not going to second guess you.

My point is that the ATF feels like they can run rampant over people, and coerce them into searches and such with no justification.

Someone called them and said "he had machineguns" would not even be probable cause for a warrant.

I am not saying that I would say "get a fooking warrant, you f-troop pig", but I am saying that I would respond that they are incorrect, I have no machine guns, please contact my attorney if you need further assistance. And walk away.

This course of action should not cause any undue difficulty, and also not allow the government to effect searches and 4th amendment violations by coercion or threat of repercussions.

I would love to say that. And you're 100 correct, you shouldn't fear exercising your rights. It's sad that the reality is the abusers of power will make you suffer for exercising what is within your right. Very very sad indeed.

I did not think you were flaming me. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

You didn't, I just wanted to make sure that I didn't sound like it.

Posted: 8/19/2005 3:53:07 PM EDT

[#37]

Once again, I must emphasive my pleasure to know that the ATF is out to prosecute law-abiding gun owners and not criminal scumbags. Are they now AFRAID to go after REAL criminals who HAVE broken the law?? WTF OVER.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:06:19 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Fan, I can hang right with you on most of the stuff you post, but I think you are dead wrong on this one. Should a man get investigated up the wazoo for not having his rifle fixed in a timely fashion??

Come now.

At Blackwater during one of my carbine classes a couple of people had doubling problems. They didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it, but the armorer did. Should the FBI guy in our class have arrested them on the spot and started an investigation on an obviously broken weapon??

Someone who has deliberately tried to make a full auto weapon is one thing. But a weapon with a broken part, though it COULD POSSIBLY be deliberately done, hardly rises to the level of proof necessary for criminal consideration.

The state is supposed to prove intent, which broken parts don't manifest.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:07:21 PM EDT

[#39]

A quote from Moses
The rifle in question never doubled on me and I shot it in numerous matches.

Read what the man said, he did not know it was "broken". Apparently the ATF were just on a fishing expedition based on what some other guy said. And after enough "tests" they found one that with the right ammo could SOMETIMES malfunction.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:13:42 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Fan, I can hang right with you on most of the stuff you post, but I think you are dead wrong on this one. Should a man get investigated up the wazoo for not having his rifle fixed in a timely fashion??

Come now.

I agree.

If you load Fedremchester ammo in 7.62x39 in an SKS, it will frequently double because the SKS has an inertial firing pin, which is heavy, and was designed to use Milspec primers.

If the ATF confiscated every SKS in america, I do not doubt that fully 25% of them would double once or twice in a hundred rounds of commercial soft primered stuff. Hell, even though you're not supposed to shoot hunting ammo in a GARAND, it also has an intertial firing pin and can set off a round like that.

Where this guy "Moses" fucked up is in having a selector that wasn not semi only. It could be turned to "full" and let the hammer follow the bolt forward (the gun didn't have an autotrip, so it was technically not illegal, but he left himself wide open).

I say that if the criteria is only the ability to "double" -- then we're all in deep shit.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:17:25 PM EDT

[#41]

Well, I am one LEO that has no love for that agency.

Posted: 8/19/2005 4:23:12 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Who is responsible for maintaining the weapon? Did wear and tear "break" the part? Or did the owner break the part so it would slam fire.

The point is if your weapon is doubling or slam firing you need to fix the damn thing. If you knowingly keep it in a condition where it slamfires or doubles it's the same damn thing as modifying it to slam fire or double.

I once had some doubling issues with an aftemarket trigger. I didnt think "cool, I have a burst fire AR now" and throw it in the safe. I fixed it so it worked properly.

Fan, I can hang right with you on most of the stuff you post, but I think you are dead wrong on this one. Should a man get investigated up the wazoo for not having his rifle fixed in a timely fashion??

Come now.

At Blackwater during one of my carbine classes a couple of people had doubling problems. They didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it, but the armorer did. Should the FBI guy in our class have arrested them on the spot and started an investigation on an obviously broken weapon??

Someone who has deliberately tried to make a full auto weapon is one thing. But a weapon with a broken part, though it COULD POSSIBLY be deliberately done, hardly rises to the level of proof necessary for criminal consideration.

The state is supposed to prove intent, which broken parts don't manifest.

Right on. The ATF itself states that it is not illegal to own a firearm which is malfunctioning due to a dangerous malfunction that may harm the operator. ATF policy dictates that only weapons converted to fullauto are fullauto - not guns which malfunction on the firing line. Any LEO who wants to be an ATF apologist has some deep issues. Kissing ATF ass only gets people blackballed on Arfcom. (Good luck with that)

Posted: 8/19/2005 5:07:28 PM EDT

[#43]

The simple act of buying a weapon from a Federally licensed dealer, and keeping it unmodified should indemnify anyone from trouble from the BATFE...

Oh wait, this is Amerika