You step forward with your lead leg to add power not the same leg you throw with.  Its the same leg with a jab and the opposite leg with a cross.

I'm sorry that the Gaje style did'nt impress you.  But, it sounds like to me that you went to a seminar.  You can't judge the whole FMA system based on a weekend seminar in one style of FMA.  In my style everything is based on actual combat we don't have the fancy padded armor or padded mats when we fall we fall on hard ground so we will know how to fall correctly w/o getting hurt.  I know my style works because my fellow students are high speed low drag people that actually used the skills on the job to save their lives.  One of them is a former Marine Force Recon now a border patrol agent the other is a retired SF SGMJ now a private security contractor.  Just my .02 cents  

Quoted: I'm a skinny guy, 5'8" and 140 lbs. I think the hardest part is finding an instructor without having to drive 20 miles everyday...

Okay well that's a start. At 5' 8" 140 you aren't going to be throwing your weight around and knocking people out with mega power punches...probably. Your attacks may have to be a little more strategically planned out. Of course people use the redirect energy cliche's with jujitsu and aikido which is true to a point but that stuff isn't magic. You are going to have to hit the gym if you are going to hope to go toe to toe with the 6' 200 pounders and above. You are going to have to have technical skills that make up for your lack of size. You are going to have to work your butt off just to get close to defending yourself from a big guy with little or no training. It sucks but that's the cold hard truth of it IMHO.

norcalhunter said

Okay well that's a start. At 5' 8" 140 you aren't going to be throwing your weight around and knocking people out with mega power punches...probably. Your attacks may have to be a little more strategically planned out. Of course people use the redirect energy cliche's with jujitsu and aikido which is true to a point but that stuff isn't magic. You are going to have to hit the gym if you are going to hope to go toe to toe with the 6' 200 pounders and above. You are going to have to have technical skills that make up for your lack of size. You are going to have to work your butt off just to get close to defending yourself from a big guy with little or no training. It sucks but that's the cold hard truth of it IMHO.

Pretty much sums it up.  Pick a skillset that suits your attributes and soldier up.


You will never have a better time in your life!  True thing. Enjoy!

Rick

Quoted: I think I might try to start taking a martial art. While self-discipline and harmony and all that is good, honestly I am looking for one that is more focused on kicking arse . The first that came to mind was jiu jitsu. Does anyone else have any suggestions or input?

Welcome to the ego forum.  If you thought shooters have opinions......

I am no martial arts guru.  But here is my opinion.  There are many good martial arts to try.  There are also many instructors/ect that take a good, practical fighting stye and completely ruin it.  From my experience and what I learned from my fellow students, instructors, and competitors, this is what I have observed.

1.  Any guy or gal who is primarily teaching children and giving out belts like candy is not teaching a practical fighting form.

2.  Punching and kicking last for the first two to 5 seconds of a fight.  Then it is grappeling, throwing, and joint submission until someone passes out/ect.  So pick a style that utilizes all of these skills.  However, remember that throwing someone or joint locking is far more effortless and effective than punching and kicking.  

3.  True fights are won on the ground.

4.  There are no rules in real fights other than winning decisively is everything.

I have practiced Shuai Chaio for several years.  I learned it when I was in college from a non-profit org.  I found that in two years I was more effective as a beginner than many people who were in Karate for years and had black belts.  There are also several other good disciplines out there.  Judo, Jujitsu, most of the Kung Fu forms, akido, and some others.  However, this stuff is not something you just learn like riding a bike and then walk away thinking you will retain it for life.  You need to practice weekly to be effective with it.  Once a couple of weeks is for the rusted-robots.  You can hurt yourself in martial arts just as easily as you can hurt another.  Keeping in shape is also a must to be able to utilize this stuff.  You can even throw out your back throwing a punch.  Flexability and some strength training is a must.  If you are over weight, lose it.  

And remember.... even Bruce Lee can be KOed by a sucker punch form the unsuspected.  Martial arts doesn't give you "spiritual powers" or ass kicking invincibility.  It just gives you a couple more tools in the tool box if you don't have a gun on you.

Good luck.

Quoted: I'm sorry that the Gaje style did'nt impress you.  But, it sounds like to me that you went to a seminar.  You can't judge the whole FMA system based on a weekend seminar in one style of FMA.

It was a seminar, however, i had prior experiances with FMA.  Certain things like hangining your thumb and index finger out when gripping a knife fo you can grapple are obviously bad ideas.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry that the Gaje style did'nt impress you.  But, it sounds like to me that you went to a seminar.  You can't judge the whole FMA system based on a weekend seminar in one style of FMA. It was a seminar, however, i had prior experiances with FMA.  Certain things like hangining your thumb and index finger out when gripping a knife fo you can grapple are obviously bad ideas.

Even in training with a dulled blade it becomes exceedingly obvious grappling with a knife is a bad idea.  In training I have done it bad idea.  With a knife the mobility of having your legs is imperative, the shit you see in the movies like kicking a knife out of someones hands is bullshit and will get you killed.  When faced with a blade you always move off the line of attack you move at 45s and 90s get past or away from the blade then deal with it, trapping is best if you are unarmed.  If you are armed "defang the snake" in lame mans terms attack the hand or arm.  If blades are your interests going into Phillipino Kali/Arnis or even Spanish Escrima is what you want.

Quoted: 2.  Punching and kicking last for the first two to 5 seconds of a fight.  Then it is grappeling, throwing, and joint submission until someone passes out/ect.  So pick a style that utilizes all of these skills.  However, remember that throwing someone or joint locking is far more effortless and effective than punching and kicking.

Only true in the octagon.  If you want to grapple with someone who has a couple friends you can't see hanging out by the bar, be my guest.  If you want to go to the ground and pray that the guy doesn't have a knife hidden somewhere, go right ahead. Try grappling with a training knife and a blue gun then come on back.  I did it a couple time with a buddy.  He'd put me in an arm bar, i'd shoot him in the face.

Try rolling in a parking lot with some broken glass.  Try to shoot on concrete without busting your knees.

The gracie's are very fond of pointing out a police statistic that says 95% of fights go to the ground.  Well, that's a POLICE statistic.  There's a whole different set of variables when cops get into fights.  When you have to restrain someone and slap on cuffs, you have to go to the ground.  If putting the cuffs on isn't something you need to do, stand up.  Also, cops often have the advantage of unlimited backup.  Often the fight goes to the ground with one badguy and a whole bunch of cops.

One of the gracies (hard to keep track) said "if there's more than one, bring a gun."  Good advice if you know what you're coming up against.  Basically, i see that as an admission that ground fighting is pretty useless against more than one guy.

3.  True fights are won on the ground.

True, when your opponent hits the ground, you have usually won.

.  There are no rules in real fights other than winning decisively is everything. And remember.... even Bruce Lee can be KOed by a sucker punch form the unsuspected.  Martial arts doesn't give you "spiritual powers" or ass kicking invincibility.  It just gives you a couple more tools in the tool box if you don't have a gun on you.

The rest of this is plenty true.

Quoted: Quoted: 2.  Punching and kicking last for the first two to 5 seconds of a fight.  Then it is grappeling, throwing, and joint submission until someone passes out/ect.  So pick a style that utilizes all of these skills.  However, remember that throwing someone or joint locking is far more effortless and effective than punching and kicking. Only true in the octagon.  If you want to grapple with someone who has a couple friends you can't see hanging out by the bar, be my guest.  If you want to go to the ground and pray that the guy doesn't have a knife hidden somewhere, go right ahead. Try grappling with a training knife and a blue gun then come on back.  I did it a couple time with a buddy.  He'd put me in an arm bar, i'd shoot him in the face. Try rolling in a parking lot with some broken glass.  Try to shoot on concrete without busting your knees. The gracie's are very fond of pointing out a police statistic that says 95% of fights go to the ground.  Well, that's a POLICE statistic.  There's a whole different set of variables when cops get into fights.  When you have to restrain someone and slap on cuffs, you have to go to the ground.  If putting the cuffs on isn't something you need to do, stand up.  Also, cops often have the advantage of unlimited backup.  Often the fight goes to the ground with one badguy and a whole bunch of cops. 3.  True fights are won on the ground. True, when your opponent hits the ground, you have usually won. .  There are no rules in real fights other than winning decisively is everything. And remember.... even Bruce Lee can be KOed by a sucker punch form the unsuspected.  Martial arts doesn't give you "spiritual powers" or ass kicking invincibility.  It just gives you a couple more tools in the tool box if you don't have a gun on you. The rest of this is plenty true.

Clubsoda, I have to ask your background?  Some form of Karate because when I started bashing
belt-factory arts you defended Karate.  Goju Ryu?  Shorin Ryu?  By the way your right and nearly all police are inept grapplers their arrest and control procedures are done with the singular thought of "how do I not get sued" in mind.  They are trained wrong it is wonder to me more do not get killed because of it.

No actually, i don't do karate. and i don't see myself defending any art in particular..  I did defend traditional arts because several of them work just fine.  I've never defended belt factories and i completely agree with you on Mc Dojo's.  My personal background is in combatives (F.I.S.T.), muai thai and jujitsu.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry that the Gaje style did'nt impress you.  But, it sounds like to me that you went to a seminar.  You can't judge the whole FMA system based on a weekend seminar in one style of FMA. It was a seminar, however, i had prior experiances with FMA.  Certain things like hangining your thumb and index finger out when gripping a knife fo you can grapple are obviously bad ideas. Even in training with a dulled blade it becomes exceedingly obvious grappling with a knife is a bad idea.  In training I have done it bad idea.  With a knife the mobility of having your legs is imperative, the shit you see in the movies like kicking a knife out of someones hands is bullshit and will get you killed.  When faced with a blade you always move off the line of attack you move at 45s and 90s get past or away from the blade then deal with it, trapping is best if you are unarmed.  If you are armed "defang the snake" in lame mans terms attack the hand or arm.  If blades are your interests going into Phillipino Kali/Arnis or even Spanish Escrima is what you want.

That's what i was saying.  Gaje's style didn't impress me and i was slipping up his guru all day.  Other experiances with FMA have impressed me and i use versions of FMA for knife and stick.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm sorry that the Gaje style did'nt impress you.  But, it sounds like to me that you went to a seminar.  You can't judge the whole FMA system based on a weekend seminar in one style of FMA. It was a seminar, however, i had prior experiances with FMA.  Certain things like hangining your thumb and index finger out when gripping a knife fo you can grapple are obviously bad ideas. Even in training with a dulled blade it becomes exceedingly obvious grappling with a knife is a bad idea.  In training I have done it bad idea.  With a knife the mobility of having your legs is imperative, the shit you see in the movies like kicking a knife out of someones hands is bullshit and will get you killed.  When faced with a blade you always move off the line of attack you move at 45s and 90s get past or away from the blade then deal with it, trapping is best if you are unarmed.  If you are armed "defang the snake" in lame mans terms attack the hand or arm.  If blades are your interests going into Phillipino Kali/Arnis or even Spanish Escrima is what you want. That's what i was saying.  Gaje's style didn't impress me and i was slipping up his guru all day.  Other experiances with FMA have impressed me and i use versions of FMA for knife and stick.

I was agreeing with you.  I guess I over-elaborated in my explanation.

Quoted: I knew a guy who was all into Judo and small circle ju jitsu. Dude was untouchable. He said all the other fighting styles are great if you want to win trophies.

Pretty impressive that he has evaluated all other styles.    I am all for schools that don't train for competition.  I hopped around for a while (Kung Fu, Aikido, etc) and was impressed enough with Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu that I stuck with it for several years.  I do not believe it is fundamentally different from Genbukan (other than some politics), but I could be wrong.

See and there's people who will tell you you are wrong for choosing a traditional art like ninjitsu knowing nothing about it.  Belt factories are one thing, but it's gonna be hard to sell that that training for 5 years and earning a black belt in a no nonsense traditional art makes you a worse fighter.  The problem is people don't differentiate between the karate they send their kids too and real forms of karate.  Same names, completely different styles.

Belt factories and mcdojo's cheapen the martial arts.

I am an experienced amateur boxer and am an amatuer coach going on my second year. I won New York State Golden Gloves in 2003.  I can tell you from experience that boxing is an excellent choice for fitness and self defense.  Boxing is an effective discpline for street fighting, especially if you ignore some of the Marquis of Queensbury's rules. Even multiple attackers can be taken care of by someone that is well trained in boxing.  And if you learn to use your forehead as a weapon, you can get most grapplers off you fairly easy if they get ahold of you. Common sense applies once you learn these skills. I never go looking for trouble, it just happens to find me once in a while. Having won Golden gloves before puts a target on you for bar room brawlers to try to show everyone they can beat  a former state champion. And size doesn't matter when bare handed, even small, slight individuals can be trained to hit with knockout power without gloves on.  

http://www.usaboxing.org/90.htm

Use the above address to find the area closest to you and contact the applicable area director. Most are very helpful and will tell you where there is a club local to you.  Many clubs aren't even listed in the phonebook, so they can be hard to find.

I am into Krav Maga and to me it is one of the most sensible styles around. I mean there are no flashy kicks or jumping moves like in other styles that I have seen.  It is a system that uses sensible techniques that you can use on the streets. My instructor is also schooled in the Russian Martial art of Sambo which he learned when he was in the Georgian Army which is a good art to learn because it teaches joint locks,chokes, and grappling techniques to neutralize an opponent.  I am a big guy @ 5'10" tall and 290lbs so I am not going to be doing any flash in a situation. I just wait and let me opponent come to me and hopefully I will be able to handle myself.  But first and foremost I try to not get into any situation that could put me in jeopardy.

Quoted: I am into Krav Maga and to me it is one of the most sensible styles around. I mean there are no flashy kicks or jumping moves like in other styles that I have seen.  It is a system that uses sensible techniques that you can use on the streets. My instructor is also schooled in the Russian Martial art of Sambo which he learned when he was in the Georgian Army which is a good art to learn because it teaches joint locks,chokes, and grappling techniques to neutralize an opponent.  I am a big guy @ 5'10" tall and 290lbs so I am not going to be doing any flash in a situation. I just wait and let me opponent come to me and hopefully I will be able to handle myself.  But first and foremost I try to not get into any situation that could put me in jeopardy.

Combatives like krav maga are plenty effective for someone who can not dedicate the time to mastering a martial art.  Generally the techniques are simple, effective, can be learned in under 30 minutes and can be used the second you walk out the door.  The entire cirriculum can be learned in about 6 months going a few times a week.  It's basically like getting an associates degree in the martial arts.  I'm not gonna blast anyone who takes the time to go to community college because they didn't follow up and get their PhD, they're way ahead of the average high school dropout.

Oh, if you're in the charlotte area, check out FIST (www.fightsurvival.com).  FIST and krav maga have a very similar idea behind it, but nick hughes is the best instructor i have ever trained under.  The man has been fighting his entire life from bouncing in australia to the foreign legion to EP work in the states and abroad.  He's been in countless street fights agoinst multiple opponents.  He knows what works.

As far as flashy stuff, you're not gonna find many martial artists doing fancy spinning jumping kicks in a street battle either.  Not that some crazy spinning high kick to the head won't hurt, but i personally can't kick much higher than a groin or stomach wearing a pair of 5.11's and all the shit i normally carry on my belt.  Forget half that shit when i'm in uniform wearing a vest.

I have been in a shitload of street fights and cant think of one that went to the ground in under 5 seconds unless I was tackled before the fight even began.  If someone thinks fights only last on the feet 2-5 seconds they have not been in many street fights.

Quoted: I have been in a shitload of street fights and cant think of one that went to the ground in under 5 seconds unless I was tackled before the fight even began.  If someone thinks fights only last on the feet 2-5 seconds they have not been in many street fights.

an opinion echoed by my afforementioned instructor.  In fact, it's kinda rare to go to the ground unless the guy attacking you is some dumbass wrestler and instead of the "sucker punch" to start hostilities goes for a double leg.  Basically, work on your sprawls and you can usually prevent all but the most adept from getting the takedown.

I know this is coming late but try them all. Kind of like the UFC fighters they have experience in most all of the different martial arts. That way you can rely on more than one form.

Trying them all is foolish.  UFC fighters only use 2-3 martial arts.  Have you ever sparred with UFC fighters? I have and there is a total of 4 martial arts I have come across they use.  Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ.  Thats it.  I have seen Judo used by some guys on TV but never sparred one and they are very rare.

Clubsoda,

I am in the eastern part of NC near the coast and there are two decent schools in my area that teach MA that have practicality in a real situation. There are several Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools that put complete emphasis in the fundamentals but to me kata and that type of stuff will not work in a street brawl. There is one good BJJ school in my area and my instructor who teaches Krav Maga. The BJJ school train mainly for competitions and go to area and regional meets but I am not into the competitive side of it. I am a former bouncer also and have been in a few scraps  in my past life and to me Krav Maga is what works for me. If I was closer to Charlotte I would check into FIST. Within the past few years around here though no matter what you learn it isn't going to deter some asshole who solves his problem with a gun because several of my friends who were bouncers have been shot and a couple have been killed.

Quoted: Quoted: 2.  Punching and kicking last for the first two to 5 seconds of a fight.  Then it is grappeling, throwing, and joint submission until someone passes out/ect.  So pick a style that utilizes all of these skills.  However, remember that throwing someone or joint locking is far more effortless and effective than punching and kicking. Only true in the octagon.  If you want to grapple with someone who has a couple friends you can't see hanging out by the bar, be my guest.  If you want to go to the ground and pray that the guy doesn't have a knife hidden somewhere, go right ahead. Try grappling with a training knife and a blue gun then come on back.  I did it a couple time with a buddy.  He'd put me in an arm bar, i'd shoot him in the face. Try rolling in a parking lot with some broken glass.  Try to shoot on concrete without busting your knees. The gracie's are very fond of pointing out a police statistic that says 95% of fights go to the ground.  Well, that's a POLICE statistic.  There's a whole different set of variables when cops get into fights.  When you have to restrain someone and slap on cuffs, you have to go to the ground.  If putting the cuffs on isn't something you need to do, stand up.  Also, cops often have the advantage of unlimited backup.  Often the fight goes to the ground with one badguy and a whole bunch of cops. One of the gracies (hard to keep track) said "if there's more than one, bring a gun."  Good advice if you know what you're coming up against.  Basically, i see that as an admission that ground fighting is pretty useless against more than one guy. 3.  True fights are won on the ground. True, when your opponent hits the ground, you have usually won. .  There are no rules in real fights other than winning decisively is everything. And remember.... even Bruce Lee can be KOed by a sucker punch form the unsuspected.  Martial arts doesn't give you "spiritual powers" or ass kicking invincibility.  It just gives you a couple more tools in the tool box if you don't have a gun on you. The rest of this is plenty true.

You read but do not comprehend.  Many fights end up on the ground, not by plan, but by chance.  You can fall, be tripped, thrown, or knocked down.  It is ideal to win on your feet.  However, learning martial arts should not be learning about only one element of fighting and defense.  You should be prepared for all possibilities.  Punching, blocking and standing are only one small part of all eventualities.  Fighting on the ground most people find very difficult.  That is why studying and practicing it is so important.

I also did not suggest that anybody not use a knife or gun.  However, I would never assume that I have a gun or knife with me at all times.  I also would assume that I need to practice disarming, defending, and attacking someone who has an advantage such as being armed.  

I would never learn to defend myself from someone who assumes that you should only practice fighting on your feet.  It is like building in a vulnerability/weakness.

Also, if I was up against several people, I would probably do the smartest thing and run if I can.  I know some shit for brains would probably desire to stay and fight, but that is why some peoples' egos lead them to the morgue or hospital.

Which martial art to Pursue?

Close, Medium and Long range Combat Marksmanship wins Every time

edit: I just had to say that---Sorry

medium and long maybe. I'm more afraid of knives at contact range

You can study any number of systems and train at any number dojo/school whatever.

The only real martial art is experience and no I don't mean sparring or routines. Standard competition does not even get to the level needed. This is the only way to truly "train the mind" into a martial mindset. The closest sport I have seen approximate this is UFC - but they restrict certain strikes to be safe. This same concept applies in the military combat veterans have a comraderie and outlook that non-combat troops - e.g. the term combat virgins do not have.

You better have the taste for getting hit and continuing on - uh unless you're KO. That means having a high pain threshold (amount of pain) and a high pain tolerance (duration of pain). Why is this important? Just like many other tactical forums, the mentlon of Mr. Murphy certainly comes into play here - rarely does any fight go as expected. In my experience anyone I have ever encountered and was known as a "fighter" had lost to an opponent - often more than one. Yes, be prepared to lose.

I have friend that is not very tall and he was often the target of bigger guys amusement at bars. He'd smile at the big guy then proceed to beat the shit out of him. He wins because he knows how to fight, but more importantly he is willing to fight. Lots of (not all) big guys don't know how to fight depending purely on their size to avoid conflict. Be careful some big guys definitely know how to fight and carry some serious power in their strikes.

I'm not saying don't learn a style or system, just there is a hell of a lot more involved than knowing the style. Dojo's cant and won't condone figting due to ethical and leagal liabilities. For the same reasons I am not recommending that you engage in fighting (uh assualt and battery) cause that is a no-no leagally. You might want to seek out someone known as a "fighter" in your area and see what they might be willing to share. Also, these days fights can escalate to armed conflict pretty quickly not like the old parking lot fights or whatever.

Any way this whole whos kung fu style is better debate is pointless.

It's all about the mind, your willingness and experience.

Aikido.
http://www.aikidofaq.com/

myit

Quoted: You can study any number of systems and train at any number dojo/school whatever. The only real martial art is experience and no I don't mean sparring or routines. Standard competition does not even get to the level needed. This is the only way to truly "train the mind" into a martial mindset. The closest sport I have seen approximate this is UFC - but they restrict certain strikes to be safe. This same concept applies in the military combat veterans have a comraderie and outlook that non-combat troops - e.g. the term combat virgins do not have. You better have the taste for getting hit and continuing on - uh unless you're KO. That means having a high pain threshold (amount of pain) and a high pain tolerance (duration of pain). Why is this important? Just like many other tactical forums, the mentlon of Mr. Murphy certainly comes into play here - rarely does any fight go as expected. In my experience anyone I have ever encountered and was known as a "fighter" had lost to an opponent - often more than one. Yes, be prepared to lose. I have friend that is not very tall and he was often the target of bigger guys amusement at bars. He'd smile at the big guy then proceed to beat the shit out of him. He wins because he knows how to fight, but more importantly he is willing to fight. Lots of (not all) big guys don't know how to fight depending purely on their size to avoid conflict. Be careful some big guys definitely know how to fight and carry some serious power in their strikes. I'm not saying don't learn a style or system, just there is a hell of a lot more involved than knowing the style. Dojo's cant and won't condone figting due to ethical and leagal liabilities. For the same reasons I am not recommending that you engage in fighting (uh assualt and battery) cause that is a no-no leagally. You might want to seek out someone known as a "fighter" in your area and see what they might be willing to share. Also, these days fights can escalate to armed conflict pretty quickly not like the old parking lot fights or whatever. Any way this whole whos kung fu style is better debate is pointless. It's all about the mind, your willingness and experience.

Actually... your post was rather pointless. Obviously anyone who is going to end up in a fight is better off if they have some experience fighting and knowing what it means to get hit.

And if you think all dojos are alike and that people don't get hit with serious strikes in dojos, you obviously have never visited one (certainly not mine). That goes double for muay thai dojos where I have seen more people get knocked out than anywhere else.

Just because we don't allow people to head butt each other in my dojo, dont think people dont get knocked out. People get knocked out, cut, and some times even cleaved when someone fucks up during weapons drills.

 

Krav Maga.  No meditating or philisophy - just efficient fighting.

Quoted: You read but do not comprehend.  Many fights end up on the ground, not by plan, but by chance.  You can fall, be tripped, thrown, or knocked down.  It is ideal to win on your feet.  However, learning martial arts should not be learning about only one element of fighting and defense.  You should be prepared for all possibilities.  Punching, blocking and standing are only one small part of all eventualities.  Fighting on the ground most people find very difficult.  That is why studying and practicing it is so important. I also did not suggest that anybody not use a knife or gun.  However, I would never assume that I have a gun or knife with me at all times.  I also would assume that I need to practice disarming, defending, and attacking someone who has an advantage such as being armed.   I would never learn to defend myself from someone who assumes that you should only practice fighting on your feet.  It is like building in a vulnerability/weakness. Also, if I was up against several people, I would probably do the smartest thing and run if I can.  I know some shit for brains would probably desire to stay and fight, but that is why some peoples' egos lead them to the morgue or hospital.

Read my other posts in this thread and you will see that you're probably in more agreement with me than you think.  Groundfighting is an essential skill if for no other reason than it helps you get back to your feet.  Spending time on the ground choking or setting up for a joint lock is just spending time you may not have.  If you go to the ground by chance and the arm bar or knee bar is right there, by all means take it, break it, stand up.  do not spend time struggling to get side control and throw your legs over if you can just strike and get back up and stomp.

As far as weapons, i'm not concerned with what you carry on a daily basis, i'm concerned about what your opponent has.  On the ground is not the time to find out he has a knife.  Get up, get out.

Quoted: Clubsoda, I am in the eastern part of NC near the coast and there are two decent schools in my area that teach MA that have practicality in a real situation. There are several Tae Kwon Do and Karate schools that put complete emphasis in the fundamentals but to me kata and that type of stuff will not work in a street brawl. There is one good BJJ school in my area and my instructor who teaches Krav Maga. The BJJ school train mainly for competitions and go to area and regional meets but I am not into the competitive side of it. I am a former bouncer also and have been in a few scraps  in my past life and to me Krav Maga is what works for me. If I was closer to Charlotte I would check into FIST. Within the past few years around here though no matter what you learn it isn't going to deter some asshole who solves his problem with a gun because several of my friends who were bouncers have been shot and a couple have been killed.

Don't take my education analogy the wrong way.  If you're looking to become a cop an associates degree in Criminal Justice is probably gonna help you more than a doctorate in 19th century russian litterature.  Get what i'm saying?  You're looking to become a fighter, a little bit of krav goes a lot further than a lot of some other things.  Personally i started out with krav and i consider it the base of nearly everything i do in the martial arts.  If it comes to throwing down on the street, i'm probably opening with something i learned in Krav or FIST.

double tap

tripple tap, fucking computers.

Clubsoda,

I am in complete agreement with what your saying man. I am a true believer of the K.I.S.S. method to most everything I do in life. I don't knock anyone elses discipline but from personal experience Krav Maga works for me. I am not looking to get into the Octagon or a Pride ring but just want to further my skills that I have. As far as an Associate's degree is concerned I am working on that now.

Some of the things I like about Krav Maga are the emphasis on gross motor skills and lots of repetitions.

What I don't like are the essentially Karate kicks against an edged weapon that I have seen on video and which I would personally cut to pieces, and enter on, as would any good Kali man.  I doubt that is part of KM core curriculum.

I prefer to look at what works and absorb from there, rather than criticize an art that I find useful.

KM really "gets" the idea about repetitions and gross motor movements.  One of the major problems  with many arts is the large amount of training and maintenance time for a given motor movement.  KM avoids that by focusing on large techniques and great motor programing.

It makes perfect sense as a skill to be taught to military and to people who can't train, for what ever reason, the 12-15 hours/week  necessary to keep a skill set at top form.  

I fully support anyone in finding what works for them.

Just my perspective.

Regards,

Rick

PFS JKD Full Instructor

Money, Guns and Lawyers Phase II

PS  When I was younger I liked to put on the gear and bang.  Now, as an old guy, I am unable to maintain that approach but am not going to disappear.  So, drills are more and more important to help me keep timing, body mechanics and rhythm, or broken rhythm up to speed.  

It's all good.  

Keep training, guys!!

Team!

Doc

I will simplify.    


AVOID
1. Tae Kwan Do
2.  98% of Karate
3.  Northern style Kung Fu
4.  Kata specializng and pointfighting schools
5.  Anywhere with pre-peubescant Black Belts
6.  Brazilian Jui Jitsu (does not work with multiple opponents)
7.  Boxing  rules learned in its sport form are not habits you want in a fight
8.  Any arts with extensive Katas
9.  If it looks impractical at first glance it usually is.



Keep these in mind and you are good

Quoted: Some of the things I like about Krav Maga are the emphasis on gross motor skills and lots of repetitions. What I don't like are the essentially Karate kicks against an edged weapon that I have seen on video and which I would personally cut to pieces, and enter on, as would any good Kali man.  I doubt that is part of KM core curriculum.

You're way off base.  KM absolutely does not teach kicking an edged weapon out of someones hand.  That's hollywood BS and anyone who tried to teach that under the disguise of Krav Maga is a con.  Krav Maga actually has decent weapon defenses agains the most common angles of attack (in kali angles 1, 2, 5 and 12)

True, a skilled knife fighter like you or i will cut them to ribbons, but they are fairly proficient defending against common street attacks.  Their gun disarms are pretty good to, though once again are trumped by a skilled operator trained in weapon retention.

Otherwise you're correct about the time constraints and so forth, it's basically what i said

The only real problem i find with Krav is overconfidence of students.  Many of them get caught in the "Deadly Israili Special Forces Combat System" hype and think they can kick anyone's ass.  That's of minimal concern as confidence is good in a fight as long as you don't get cocky.

Quoted: I will simplify.     AVOID 1. Tae Kwan Do 2.  98% of Karate 3.  Northern style Kung Fu 4.  Kata specializng and pointfighting schools 5.  Anywhere with pre-peubescant Black Belts 6.  Brazilian Jui Jitsu (does not work with multiple opponents) 7.  Boxing  rules learned in its sport form are not habits you want in a fight 8.  Any arts with extensive Katas 9.  If it looks impractical at first glance it usually is. Keep these in mind and you are good

Once again matt, you're on base with the observations, but off base with the dismissing of specific arts.  It's all in the instructor when it comes to TKD, Karate, BJJ, Kung Fu, etc.  You can usually tell the bad ones by what they have in common with the remaining points.

clubsoda22

Like I say, I doubt the kick disarms are part of core curriculum.  I would have to go dig through a box to find the tape and instructor.  

When a friend and I saw that we just looked at each other and laughed.  I tried to imagine a IDF guy in full gear giving up his wheels to kick a knife.  Ouch!

Most people need something sound that can have some application after a short time (?6 months?) but continue to develop as they continue to train.  KM fits that.

That's one of the issues with Akido, while there is lots of useful stuff in there the skill acquisition phase is, in my personal opinion, way way long.

My personal favorite is the Kali, with the basic ground game from BJJ, and conceptual approach of JKD. The mobile platform and effective strikes of boxing are a big plus as well. I agree with the ground game weakness being multiple assailants, and broken glass, rocks and needles on the ground. Having said that, the ground game is essential at some point.

Lots of good comments in the thread.

Thanks,


Rick

Quoted: Keep training, guys!! Doc

Just got home from my martial arts class and checked this thread for new updates. Great advice. Been loving hearing everybody's opinions.

I first posted on this thread a long time ago, and I have come back to it now and want to say something.  I guess I was in a dickhead mood or something before.  I didn't mean to sound like an ass and put down anybody's art or anything.  I have my preferences and opinions but I am sure every style has good things about it, even if they aren't always the most practical.

For example:

A couple of weeks ago after a really hard boxing work-out me and my buddy walk into the locker room, shoes sqeaking from so much sweat, feeling like we are about to pass out, and I started making some comments about some classical martial arts guys who train in our gym.  After busting my ass for two hours I see them doing their little coreographed dances together, nice and dry and clean looking and all, so when we walk into the locker room I was going on, in a very loud voice, about how gay they were and how they think they are bad asses and shit when they trained like pussies etc. etc.  Well mid-sentence I realize that there is one of them on the other side of the locker room and I feel like such a class-less dickhead.  He didn't say shit, just nodded to us and went about his business as he left.  


If nothing else, you learn discipline and class among other things, which that guy in the locker room displayed.   Something that all my hard-work obviously hadn't imparted upon me yet.  I mean, there is nothing wrong with having opinions, but don't be a dousche-bag and talk shit about people you don't even know.  



So anyway, no disrespect intended.  I am sure there are plenty of classical guys out there that could take care of bussines.  My thing is just that I think you need to train like an athlete.  Strength, speed, coordination, endurance, these things are all important to technique and execution.  I just don't like it when I see some dude with a fucking gut hanging over his belt who wheezes after walking up the stairs thinking that he is some kind of fighter and shit.  

Quoted: Quoted: I will simplify.     AVOID 1. Tae Kwan Do 2.  98% of Karate 3.  Northern style Kung Fu 4.  Kata specializng and pointfighting schools 5.  Anywhere with pre-peubescant Black Belts 6.  Brazilian Jui Jitsu (does not work with multiple opponents) 7.  Boxing  rules learned in its sport form are not habits you want in a fight 8.  Any arts with extensive Katas 9.  If it looks impractical at first glance it usually is. Keep these in mind and you are good Once again matt, you're on base with the observations, but off base with the dismissing of specific arts.  It's all in the instructor when it comes to TKD, Karate, BJJ, Kung Fu, etc.  You can usually tell the bad ones by what they have in common with the remaining points.

If you have the background you say you do you no doubt know my generalization(yes I will call it a generalization, most have a basis in fact hence the term "general") is 90-98% right.  So my advice is look elsewhere first and you will likely find substance faster without wasting time.

yes matt, i concede that you are probably mostly correct.  Many of the programs you mention are often glorified exercise programs.  However, some BJJ is neccecary for some reasons i've mentioned before and most of the strikes from combatives programs have striking rooted in good old fashioned karate.

To illustrate that point: Remember Keith Hackney from the really early UFC's?  He was basically a kempo karate and white tiger Kung Fu practitioner but his particular style cut out all the ballet shit.  That guy kicked ass.  Looking at his stand up game it's basically the same stuff you'll learn in any good combatives course.  Palm strikes, hammer fists and of course, groin strikes (wondering if Joe Son ever had kids following that match).  It must also be noted that even though he was eventually arm barred, no one had ever kept Royce Gracie continuously on his feet that long and i don't think anyone has since.

Quoted: I first posted on this thread a long time ago, and I have come back to it now and want to say something.  I guess I was in a dickhead mood or something before.  I didn't mean to sound like an ass and put down anybody's art or anything.  I have my preferences and opinions but I am sure every style has good things about it, even if they aren't always the most practical. For example: A couple of weeks ago after a really hard boxing work-out me and my buddy walk into the locker room, shoes sqeaking from so much sweat, feeling like we are about to pass out, and I started making some comments about some classical martial arts guys who train in our gym.  After busting my ass for two hours I see them doing their little coreographed dances together, nice and dry and clean looking and all, so when we walk into the locker room I was going on, in a very loud voice, about how gay they were and how they think they are bad asses and shit when they trained like pussies etc. etc.  Well mid-sentence I realize that there is one of them on the other side of the locker room and I feel like such a class-less dickhead.  He didn't say shit, just nodded to us and went about his business as he left.   If nothing else, you learn discipline and class among other things, which that guy in the locker room displayed.   Something that all my hard-work obviously hadn't imparted upon me yet.  I mean, there is nothing wrong with having opinions, but don't be a dousche-bag and talk shit about people you don't even know.   So anyway, no disrespect intended.  I am sure there are plenty of classical guys out there that could take care of bussines.  My thing is just that I think you need to train like an athlete.  Strength, speed, coordination, endurance, these things are all important to technique and execution.  I just don't like it when I see some dude with a fucking gut hanging over his belt who wheezes after walking up the stairs thinking that he is some kind of fighter and shit.

Well, you did I have the class to come back and apologize. That counts for a lot.

Also, I too think people who train like pussies are pussies. Anyone who is serious about their art and about self-defense knows that hard work must be put in at the dojo/gym.

I can't count how many times I passed out or ended up over a bucket puking because I was pushed so hard in my works outs; not for lack of being in shape, but just because I was pushed that hard.

If you don't want to put the work in, you're never going to get what you are looking for in martial arts.

Quoted: Anyone who doesn't actually step up and hit and be hit will not respond well to a real situation no matter how pretty their belt looks.  Read a book called "Real Fighting" to see how martial artists fair in real life.

... and that's why I'll never be able to get any real fight training. one hit to the head and I'll have a detached retina. fucking doc has even warned me away from JOGGING to vigirously.

Any suggestions for learning self defense for someone like me who can't practice getting hit?

Seems like gun-fu is about it.

given that preventing "injury likely to cause blindness" is a valid justification for using lethal force, you are potentially held to much lower standard than the rest of us.

Wow that's a lot of info. To me, it seems like my best bets are:

KM
MT
BJJ

Or all of the above??

Gun Kata?

Have any of you guys heard of the BJJ instructor Rickson Gracie? I found out he is literally blocks away from my apt and according to his site, he's got an impressive history (assuming it's accurate)... I'm also guessing it won't be cheap!