Quoted: Have any of you guys heard of the BJJ instructor Rickson Gracie? I found out he is literally blocks away from my apt and according to his site, he's got an impressive history (assuming it's accurate)... I'm also guessing it won't be cheap!

Hes the Gracie Alpha Male.  He is as advertised, expensive though I am sure.  For sport and Vale Tudo few measure up.  KEY WORD>>>>SPORT<<<<

Quoted: Have any of you guys heard of the BJJ instructor Rickson Gracie? I found out he is literally blocks away from my apt and according to his site, he's got an impressive history (assuming it's accurate)... I'm also guessing it won't be cheap!

Is he the one in San Francisco???

Nevermind... I just googled him... he's in LA.

There is another Gracie in S.F. I thought you might be talking about (which I haven't heard great things about).

Quoted: yes matt, i concede that you are probably mostly correct.  Many of the programs you mention are often glorified exercise programs.  However, some BJJ is neccecary for some reasons i've mentioned before and most of the strikes from combatives programs have striking rooted in good old fashioned karate. To illustrate that point: Remember Keith Hackney from the really early UFC's?  He was basically a kempo karate and white tiger Kung Fu practitioner but his particular style cut out all the ballet shit.  That guy kicked ass.  Looking at his stand up game it's basically the same stuff you'll learn in any good combatives course.  Palm strikes, hammer fists and of course, groin strikes (wondering if Joe Son ever had kids following that match).  It must also be noted that even though he was eventually arm barred, no one had ever kept Royce Gracie continuously on his feet that long and i don't think anyone has since.

Did you see the Gracie Vs. Sakubara fights.  That was the shit.  Sakubara embarassed all the relevant Gracies with the exception of Rickson I believe.  Sorry I am not a sport guy so I am not a Gracie worshipper you and I are on different paths Clubsoda22.

OK, guys, lots of interesting info in this thread.  I've been considering getting into some kind of program here recently.  I've had some very basic and brief formal instruction based on Ikkyo, and some informal boxing and Akido from some knowledgable buddies of mine I used to go to the gym with.  All of this was more than five years ago, tho, and I'm just now starting to get back into shape and thinking about picking up some more training.  I'm focusing on hand-to-hand in a combat environment-not worried about tournaments.  I just want to learn how to incapacitate as quickly as possible so I can get to a weapon or deal with another threat.  I understand and appreciate the need for a good grasp of groundfighting, but don't know that that will completely meet my needs.

In the local area, we have one place that does MMA (altho they seem to focus on BJJ), two Akido joints, a couple Tae Kwan Do and the usual Karate stuff.  Here's the MMA website:

www.teamroc-va.net/home.html

Think this is worth checking out?  Other suggestions?

Quoted: OK, guys, lots of interesting info in this thread.  I've been considering getting into some kind of program here recently.  I've had some very basic and brief formal instruction based on Ikkyo, and some informal boxing and Akido from some knowledgable buddies of mine I used to go to the gym with.  All of this was more than five years ago, tho, and I'm just now starting to get back into shape and thinking about picking up some more training.  I'm focusing on hand-to-hand in a combat environment-not worried about tournaments.  I just want to learn how to incapacitate as quickly as possible so I can get to a weapon or deal with another threat.  I understand and appreciate the need for a good grasp of groundfighting, but don't know that that will completely meet my needs. In the local area, we have one place that does MMA (altho they seem to focus on BJJ), two Akido joints, a couple Tae Kwan Do and the usual Karate stuff.  Here's the MMA website: www.teamroc-va.net/home.html Think this is worth checking out?  Other suggestions?

Like others have pointed out in this thread... it depends on the amount of time you want to invest in this. If you just want to learn some basic strikes and way incapacitate someone, then a narrowly focused combatives program like FIST or Krav might be what you are looking for. These programs, as Clubsoda has stated, are rudimentary introductions to self-defense (an AA degree as he put it).

If you want to get more indepth with your training, and are willing invest more time in your effort, then a formal martial art might be more worthwhile, as long as you find a good instructor that is not some wannabe mall ninja.

My advice would be to do some reach on the different forms of martial arts out there and see which ones are taught near you. Then check out the schools, and try to get a sense of whether or not the the schools are mere belt factories. Make sure you choose one that has instructors that are real martial artists.

Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who doesn't actually step up and hit and be hit will not respond well to a real situation no matter how pretty their belt looks.  Read a book called "Real Fighting" to see how martial artists fair in real life. ... and that's why I'll never be able to get any real fight training. one hit to the head and I'll have a detached retina. fucking doc has even warned me away from JOGGING to vigirously. Any suggestions for learning self defense for someone like me who can't practice getting hit? Seems like gun-fu is about it.

What do you have?  What condition is that?

Mattl, et al:

You should, and will, draw your own conclusions.

In the opinion of many of the worlds best fighters, Rickson Gracie ( pronounced "Hickson") is the creme de la creme.  Many challenge matches in Brazil long before any "sport"  component.

The best fighters I know think he is the best they know.  He's just past his prime so I don't know how much more we will see him fight.  You would like him.

He is the probably the best fighter in the BJJ tradition so far, no offense to the current and great generation who will hopefully surpass him.  He is very smart and feels like grappling with an anaconda.  A very classy guy and an asset to the fighting warrior arts.

There are some tapes floating around of his fights that will warm your heart.  Great stuff!

Just my opinion.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Keep Training!

"Doc" Rick

Edited for spelling.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone who doesn't actually step up and hit and be hit will not respond well to a real situation no matter how pretty their belt looks.  Read a book called "Real Fighting" to see how martial artists fair in real life. ... and that's why I'll never be able to get any real fight training. one hit to the head and I'll have a detached retina. fucking doc has even warned me away from JOGGING to vigirously. Any suggestions for learning self defense for someone like me who can't practice getting hit? Seems like gun-fu is about it. What do you have?  What condition is that?

thin spots all over my retinas, "lattice degeneration", a small hole in one retina that has been repaired

Quoted: given that preventing "injury likely to cause blindness" is a valid justification for using lethal force, you are potentially held to much lower standard than the rest of us.

hmmmm ... I never actually thought of that before.

Quoted: Mattl, et al: You should, and will, draw your own conclusions. In the opinion of many of the worlds best fighters, Rickson Gracie ( pronounced "Hickson") is the creme de la creme.  Many challenge matches in Brazil long before any "sport"  component. The best fighters I know think he is the best they know.  He's just past his prime so I don't know how much more we will see him fight.  You would like him. He is the probably the best fighter in the BJJ tradition so far, no offense to the current and great generation who will hopefully surpass him.  He is very smart and feels like grappling with an anaconda.  A very classy guy and an asset to the fighting warrior arts. There are some tapes floating around of his fights that will warm your heart.  Great stuff! Just my opinion. Thanks for the dialogue. Keep Training! "Doc" Rick Edited for spelling.

I complemented him?

rickson gracie is indeed one of the best fighters to ever grace the ring.  The street?  I wouldn't want to fight him myself as i'm sure a lifetime of martial arts has taught him how to stand up when neccecary. but i can tell you his style of groundfighting is not optimal for real world conditions.

Mattl said:  I complemented him?

Hey Mattl,

Working to clarify.  You said "sport" and "Gracie worshipper" in dismissive terms and I get your point and largely agree but think you may over simplify.  Your comment did not sound like a complement to me.  

Don't mean nothin'.  I am not here to defend or explain BJJ.

There  were and are non sport elements to GJJ and not all (that would be me) who think BJJ/GJJ are useful are Gracie worshippers.   I'm a JKD/Kali guy.  I like whatever works.

The only thing I would suggest, roll with a really good GJJ/BJJ guy if you haven't.  I suspect you may have already. There is a lot of footage on VHS, not DVD and not current, of fights, not matches, between GJJ and all comers.  Good stuff.  Lots of non sport content.

Or, roll with a good JKD guy who has integrated BJJ into the game and you will see the practical elements right out front.  Paul Vunak, Tom Cruse, Roy Harris, and Matt Thornton (so OK,he's 6'5" and 250#, so what.   8^)   ) come to mind.

My personal approach is that I do not want  to go to the ground if possible.  I do not want to roll around on glass and rocks and get kicked by my assailants' friends.  I work in a hospital but do not want to be a patient there. I do want to know how to get up from the ground ASAP and how to function at that range if I can't get up.  I plan to win.  I think that weapons will be involved and I assume that: Sport BJJ usually does not, but a good BJJ guy knows that.  

I think things would be really ugly by that point.  Blades are a fact of life.  I like ARs and Glocks.  

I like pie.

There are, I think, 2 components to BJJ.  One is the sport element, that you clearly point out, and the other is the practical element that only comes out when the instructor , or student, looks for it.  I think it is important to distuinguish between the sport and non sport aspects of BJJ and not mix the 2.

You have the distictinction clearly in your mind and will not confuse the 2.  


What do you think?

With Respects,

"Doc"


PS  Off line for a few days.  Will be back

Quoted: Mattl said:  I complemented him? Hey Mattl, Working to clarify.  You said "sport" and "Gracie worshipper" in dismissive terms and I get your point and largely agree but think you may over simplify.  Your comment did not sound like a complement to me.   Don't mean nothin'.  I am not here to defend or explain BJJ. There  were and are non sport elements to GJJ and not all (that would be me) who think BJJ/GJJ are useful are Gracie worshippers.   I'm a JKD/Kali guy.  I like whatever works. The only thing I would suggest, roll with a really good GJJ/BJJ guy if you haven't.  I suspect you may have already. There is a lot of footage on VHS, not DVD and not current, of fights, not matches, between GJJ and all comers.  Good stuff.  Lots of non sport content. Or, roll with a good JKD guy who has integrated BJJ into the game and you will see the practical elements right out front.  Paul Vunak, Tom Cruse, Roy Harris, and Matt Thornton (so OK,he's 6'5" and 250#, so what.   8^)   ) come to mind. My personal approach is that I do not want  to go to the ground if possible.  I do not want to roll around on glass and rocks and get kicked by my assailants' friends.  I work in a hospital but do not want to be a patient there. I do want to know how to get up from the ground ASAP and how to function at that range if I can't get up.  I plan to win.  I think that weapons will be involved and I assume that: Sport BJJ usually does not, but a good BJJ guy knows that.   I think things would be really ugly by that point.  Blades are a fact of life.  I like ARs and Glocks.   I like pie. There are, I think, 2 components to BJJ.  One is the sport element, that you clearly point out, and the other is the practical element that only comes out when the instructor , or student, looks for it.  I think it is important to distuinguish between the sport and non sport aspects of BJJ and not mix the 2. You have the distictinction clearly in your mind and will not confuse the 2.   What do you think? With Respects, "Doc" PS  Off line for a few days.  Will be back

One of my instructors is a hardcore "Gracie worshipper" and as far as Ju Jutsu  or sport Jui Jitsu you don't have to explain anything I have had a couple years of both.  You and I share a mindset "go with what works" and pulling someone into a guard is a good way to get your head turned into a puddle by the guy you did not see.  To put dumb simple it is almost never a good idea to use "sport" practices and by that I mean patterned rules and regs and apply it to a combatives art.  Use the guard only to get back to your feet or to a more offensive position.  I really dont want to debate tactics and offenses from a given position.  It just goes back to a point clarified many times Gracie/Machado stuff works one on one.  Muay Thai is not taught in conjunction with traditional Brazilian Jui Jitsu it is added to sell better stateside and back in S.America to make a more viable fighting art and Vale Tudo/MMA events.  To what you referred to as far as practical, guess what.  That is traditional Ju Jutsu the Japanese way.  An armbar is an armbar and an ankle lock is an ankle lock, physiologically that does not change but how you get to it and apply it in a combat vs. sport changes immensely.  To the videos their quite humorous, but they served a extremely relevant purpose, they forced change.  Till the Gracies the U.S. was into jerkoff arts with little practical application or technique.  The Gracies and I give them full credit opened the door to change and a belief in intergration and cross training, for that any serious martial artists owes them a debt of grattitude.  Seriously though if I showed up and forced you to compete against me in a competition you have heard little of and likely never have seen much less understood how hard would it be for me to beat you at it?

Mattl:

What you said, yeah.

I seems like we have to reinvent the wheel every 15 years or so.  When BJJ hit nobody cared and then all of a sudden it was the latest and greatest.  Who had ever heard of Gene LeBell?

What's next?  Combat kickboxing?

Pretty soon we'll be seeing infommercials for some guy named Lee Bruce teaching Hung Far Lo form of Wang Chung Tonight.  

I should go to bed.

Take care.


Rick

people pull guard because they have no takedown skills.  see Royler Gracie vs Eddie Bravo in ADCC 4.  bjj coupled with wrestling is a good combo.  for street fighting, I prefer having better boxing skills over kickboxing.  

I want to start either brazilian Jui-Jitsu or Krav Maga both ass-kicking martial arts focused on winning a fight

clubsoda22, you say that BJJ isn’t good; I have to say that you that it sounds like you have never been in a fight!!!
Did you ever see the 1st few UFC's; where was Krav Maga and FIST?

At least Lester_Burnham has it right… "It's good to have some grappling skill for self defense, but personally I would rely on my striking first and do whatever I could to avoid the ground, as was pointed out, because of the opponent possibly having friends or whatever who may enjoy stomping on you." "I would do whatever I could to stay on the feet and use my Thai boxing experience to go for maximum devastation in the shortest possible time, my goal being to neutralize them or escape."

I don’t, however, agree that it is wise to try and stand up w/someone that is experienced at ground fighting. When doing so, you will post (usually to your hands and knees) and open about 4 dozen different ways to get rolled over and SERIOUSLY INJURED by someone trained in BJJ.

I have trained BJJ w/some of the best in the world; including Phil Cardella, William Vandry, and Diego Sanchez’s main sparring partner Chris (who is trying to get a UFC contract as we speak) www.austinjj.com/instructors.php?instructor=2_phil_cardella.txt
www.austinbjj.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=6&POSTNUKESID=5b8e5afd74fc7f66a4bdcd4920f0edbb

If you want to understand it, don’t talk about it a forum, GO TRAIN with someone who has DIRECT lineage going back to Brazil. (Vale Tudo’s there are the only REAL no-rules fights left!)
bjj.org/academies/

Tae Kwon Do(NT) and Kung-Fu are great if you are going to make a movie, but don’t buy into the who blocking and 'defense' BS... it's hard to even see a punch coming in a fight, much less get your hands in front of it. And, always remember, there are no spinning ‘ninja style’ heel kicks in a fight... really, there aren’t. Muay Thai, which actually works, is different because it uses knees and elbows at the close inside distances. A friend whom is a 2nd degree BB in TKD; was a dis-believer. To make a long story short he said he could kick me in the head. I offered to let him try w/me wearing a helmet. 3 out of 3 single-leg takedowns later, he realized that it only worked if I was standing still.  He now trains BJJ and Muay Thai exclusively, which is the best mix you can get. And please don’t talk about JKD, or something else that requires the ability to jump 6 feet in the air. BJJ is replicateable, women can learn it, old fat guys can learn it, it works… it simply works.

Some of the guys in my school are actually Krav Maga instructors and they secretly admit that they do it solely for the money, and admit that BJJ and MT are FAR SUPERIOR.
Don’t tell me how tough your art is… SHOW ME!

Gracie montage from early UFC’s:
static.hugi.is/martial_arts/movies/04-RoyceGracieHQ.zip
(20 meg zip archive)

BJJ vs a Kung Fu expert:
www.compfused.com/directlink/652/

So what happens if you can beat up most normal sized guys; I don’t know, let’s put Gracie against the champion Sumo wrestler that outweighs him by close to 300 lbs. www.roycegracie.tv/AkebonoVsRoyce.wmv

Quoted: clubsoda22, you say that BJJ isn’t good; I have to say that you that it sounds like you have never been in a fight!!! Did you ever see the 1st few UFC's; where was Krav Maga and FIST?

I'm just going to say that you obviously have not followed this thread and lack any understanding  of my position because of this.  You wasted your time with a needlessly long post which proves nothing other than BJJ works in a padded octagon when fighting against one unarmed person, which i never denied.

Secondly, you're talking to someone who trains in BJJ and MT.

Street fights dont occur with BJJ black belts most of the time.  They occur with thugs and usually more than one.  BJJ is a last resort defensive technique for street fighting.  3 guys who box in the gym in the ghetto would litterally kill 2 Gracies in under a minute.  It would be a double team followed by skull stomp while the other guy was getting put to the ground and choked, etc. And by the time the one on one fight was ending with the 3rd guy the first two thugs would destroy the last Gracie and skull stomp him too.  

Standing up is the only way to fight multiple attackers.  Standing up is how all fights start.  The fastest way to incapacitate is a punch on the chin.  A good take down defense is more important than good BJJ skills.  BJJ is the last skill to learn to become effective as a street fighter.  Boxing is first.  MT is second.  BJJ is last.  Actually I would say training in the 100m dash is #1 if you want to be totally honest.

Considering how many people carry knives, rolling on the ground with a gangbanger, thug, hoodlum is about the LAST thing I want to do.

I wouldn't go quite that far dev.  The gracies can stand up if they need to.  considering they train all their lives, they're gonna be pretty hard to get no matter what happens.  However, yes.  Someone who either exclusively trains groundfighting or trains to the point that that is where he is most comfortable is asking for it in a street fight if he'ss foolish enough to go down.

I was training thursday with my friend.  We were training to access weapons (blue guns and traing knives) from the ground.  It wasn't pretty.  the ground is not the place to be with someone who has a weapon or friends.  Any time you clinch it's dangerous, you're just asking for the prison shank.

This is where i'm gonna agree with you completely, dev.  Distance is your friend.  If you can get someone with kicks and punches, you give yourself room to react if a weapon is pulled or a friend steps in.  If you are in a stand up clinch, you might not se the weapon pulled or the friend step in, but it's usually pretty easy to break the clinch and gain distance.  The clinch is neccecary when the opponent is armed with a club or is solely a mid range fighter (like a boxer) If you are on the ground, you are the most vulnerable, period.

I have pretty good faith in the fact any Gracie would get destroyed by two trained boxers at once.  Fighting two trained people almost guarantees failure.  I am not a competative, paid fighter and Id do stand up against any of the Gracies and not be too worried about getting hurt.  I do sparing with relative newbs 2 on 1 and know Id only have about a 50/50 chance of winning the fight because it requires I incappacitate someone before i get tackled with an ugly takedown.  After that it is mere seconds till you get a kick to the head.

That being said, i've heared of gracies busting their knees shooting in on concrete, so, maybe you're right, but many of them are pretty well rounded fighters.

Kenpo

Jim Mitchell - Grandmaster passed down from Ed Parker
Locate in Springfield, Mo.
Might have a school your way.I will let you do the research.

Elvis is alive

Death Touch.    

Quoted: I'm just going to say that you obviously have not followed this thread and lack any understanding  of my position because of this.  You wasted your time with a needlessly long post which proves nothing other than BJJ works in a padded octagon when fighting against one unarmed person, which i never denied. Secondly, you're talking to someone who trains in BJJ and MT.

Training against knives and guns... *laff*
I do, however, agree that a knife at VERY close distances is better than a gun.

If you don’t mind, I would like to know WHO you have trained with?

Krav Maga... KRAV F*CKING MAGA!!! C'mon man... seriously, I think you have been watching too many movies if you think Steven Segal and Neo can fight. That is the BIGGEST scam pulled on the North American continent since Tae Kwon Don’t, Kung Fu, and TaeBo.

I have been in 7 street fights, 2 of them I was completely knocked unconscious… one of which I awakened to someone bashing my face skull into the concrete while I was out. I only thank God that he didn’t know what he was doing or I could have been killed. I have been stabbed, hit over the head, and broken bones in scuffs.

I will, with the UPMOST confidence say that pretty much ALL martial arts are BS; at least that is what I used to say until I met a Brazilian.
I told him that I was a master of ‘Gun Fu’, and threw me across a table and choked me out. Since then I have broken bones training, I’ll be god damned before I listen to some Charlton standing on a ‘Steve Segal is REAL!’ pedestal telling me how tough their ‘ART’ is!

You can train for 15 years, as did a fiend of mine with 3 black belts… then get your ASS KICKED by a redneck in a bar that will break a bottle over the bar and stick it into your neck.

Fighting is just that… fighting; it is NOT best practices put into action; show me a rule book to a fight and I will show you a loser’s hand guide!

Quoted: So what happens if you can beat up most normal sized guys; I don’t know, let’s put Gracie against the champion Sumo wrestler that outweighs him by close to 300 lbs. www.roycegracie.tv/AkebonoVsRoyce.wmv

that link is 404. Damn I wanted to see that..

I’ve seen it… the fat Jap did the same thing everyone does not trained on the ground; that is to post on their arms when pulled into the guard and leave their two limbs un-defended against your two arms and your legs; that's 4 against 2 for those as poor in math as I am.

When you are in the guard, there is one... AND ONLY ONE... thing you can do, it is pass it, or choke/punch/stab/bite your way out of it. If you try to stand, sit-up, etc, you set yourself up for an armbar of a shoulder lock. I believe Joyce popped his left arm out with a kimura.

Here is an example of what it is like:
bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/
(picture the guy in the white pants face down between Royce’s legs as Akebono)

Quoted: Quoted: I'm just going to say that you obviously have not followed this thread and lack any understanding  of my position because of this.  You wasted your time with a needlessly long post which proves nothing other than BJJ works in a padded octagon when fighting against one unarmed person, which i never denied. Secondly, you're talking to someone who trains in BJJ and MT. Training against knives and guns... *laff* I do, however, agree that a knife at VERY close distances is better than a gun. If you don’t mind, I would like to know WHO you have trained with? Krav Maga... KRAV F*CKING MAGA!!! C'mon man... seriously, I think you have been watching too many movies if you think Steven Segal and Neo can fight. That is the BIGGEST scam pulled on the North American continent since Tae Kwon Don’t, Kung Fu, and TaeBo. I have been in 7 street fights, 2 of them I was completely knocked unconscious… one of which I awakened to someone bashing my face skull into the concrete while I was out. I only thank God that he didn’t know what he was doing or I could have been killed. I have been stabbed, hit over the head, and broken bones in scuffs. I will, with the UPMOST confidence say that pretty much ALL martial arts are BS; at least that is what I used to say until I met a Brazilian. I told him that I was a master of ‘Gun Fu’, and threw me across a table and choked me out. Since then I have broken bones training, I’ll be god damned before I listen to some Charlton standing on a ‘Steve Segal is REAL!’ pedestal telling me how tough their ‘ART’ is! You can train for 15 years, as did a fiend of mine with 3 black belts… then get your ASS KICKED by a redneck in a bar that will break a bottle over the bar and stick it into your neck. Fighting is just that… fighting; it is NOT best practices put into action; show me a rule book to a fight and I will show you a loser’s hand guide!

Evedently you are also coming into the thread late.

Yes, it's a fact, most martial arts are bullshit.  The people who can use them effectively are the people who can sift through the bullshit and come out with new skills, not new kata's

Hint: if you ever get into a fight in that redneck bar, don't break the bottle over the bar, you might as well break it over their head.  Usually when they break you're left standing there with the neck of the bottle and a fairly useless stabbing impliment.

Good article on FIST

You didn't answer my question... who did you train BJJ from?

Please show me the part in this thread where you did talk crap about BJJ in a street fight and referred to FIST, Krav Maga and Aikido as ‘lethal’ fighting arts. The Brazilians have spent a CENTURY at this… where were all the Van Damn’s, Jet Li’s, and Segal’s in the 1st UFCs???
Now everyone employs what they perfected. And if you use the word ‘shoot’ again you can suck off Joe Rogan... my wife’s fat cat knows more BJJ than he does.

Personally, I think you are a moron… anyone who has ever been in a fight knows that breaking a bottle over someone’s head rarely does more than piss them off.
Break it over a bar, and then you have a jagged weapon.

Your are a dick, and you talk like you know it all… you know nothing and I bet you have never been in a fight whereas someone knew what they were doing, was trying to hurt you, or both.

Watch the attitude.  You have no business coming in here talking shit.  I sugest you step the fuck off and apologise.  come back when you want to have a civil discussion.

I forgot ju jitsu guys hate it when we refer to that double leg wresting take down you guys do as "shooting in."  I suppose you have a portugese word for it

I never trashed Ju Jitsu.  I said it doesn't work against more than one opponent or armed opponents which is a FACT the gracies have even admitted to.  And a whole hundred years, you realize how little that is in the scope of how long man has been fighting each other?  Ju jitsu is just another art that became popular by exposure.  Like most it's got some good stuff and some negative attributes

You missed the point, don't use a fucking beer bottle as a weapon if you can avoid it.  Try breaking on a hard surface sometime, they very seldom break like in the movies with those nice sharp edges, usually they break at the neck, so if you're gonna break it, break it on who you're fighting and if you're lucky enough for it to break with some points on it, stab.  Either way you usually end up with some glass in your hand and a pretty crappy stabbing weapon.  I prefer to just carry a knife.

Don’t talk about attitudes; this is a civil discussion… you are only mad cause’ ya called you out.
(It’s what happens when you speak about things you know nothing of.)

In regards to multiple opponents, attackers w/knives, bats, etc. I have one word of advice… RUN.

You have not, however; answered my questions:
1. How many fights have you been in?
2. Who have you trained Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu from?

I love those Segal/Jackie Chan movies where someone comes in with a knife, or a punch gets caught in the air.
It’s hard to even see them coming in a street fight, much less get your hands in front of them.

Quoted: In regards to multiple opponents, attackers w/knives, bats, etc. I have one word of advice… RUN.

That's based on the assumption that you can run faster.  Pretty foolish if you ask me.

I have been in no street fights.  Being comitted to a life of deterrence and de-escalation has it's benifits.  The argument is however moot, it's like saying you need to have tried crack to comment on the drug epidemic.

My Jujitsu instruction is informal and has mostly been with other gracie ju jitsu practitioners, some of whom have trained directly with the gracies.  Also irrelevent since my suggestion that BJJ is ineffective against multiple opponents or armed attackers has been echoed by everyone including the gracies ("if there's more than one have a gun")

I fail to see how i am being labled as a proponent of this hollywood shit as i have stated nothing to that effect

Saying “Being committed to a life of deterrence and de-escalation has it's benefits.”… Is nothing more than an ad-hominem attack, it infers that I am not.

Furthermore, the argument is not moot:
Saying that because you don’t fight you are able to talk about it is not analogous to a drug discussion; a more accurate analogy would be to have a discussion that fighting is wrong, not HOW TO.

Lastly, thanks for being honest… It was important for me that you clarify you have never trained BJJ and that you have never been in a fight.

Hopefully others will take the advice of those who grew up in racially charged areas and had no choice but to fight. And in regards to fighting multiple opponents, try it some time… it doesn’t work.

If I wanted to learn about real estate investing, I would talk to someone who owns real estate... not a realtor, get where I am going w/this?

So you've had to throw down a couple times, that doesn't make you right.

Fighting multiple opponents doesn't work...for you.  My FIST instructor has fought multiple opponents on several occasions.  Numerous times fighting groups while he was bouncing and in later incidents.

Because you have a misconception about fighting multiple opponents and armed opponents, you don't train for the eventuality and therefore you're only option is to run.

What experiance do you have outside BJJ?

Great... another, 'but... my instructor said ect... ' discussion.
has
Look, I'm sure you are a really cool guy and if we met we would probably be friends, but don’t speak out against BJJ and tout some crap like Krav Maga, its a fucking joke, one of the biggest scams pulled since Tae Kwon Do(NT). I roll w/some of the Krav Maga 'instructors' here in town and they admit they got a certificate for $3K and are doing it for the money because website and radio adds drive their business in.

I'm not bashing BJJ.  I'm just revealing it's limitations.  I am not a krav Maga proponent, though i believe that it is worthwhile for people who don't have the time to invest in a martial art.  Believe it or not, there are actually some very good krav schools here in SEPA.  This is probably due to the fact that the owner of these schools was trained under the person who created FIST.  It boils down to the quality of the instructor.  There are definately plenty of Krav schools that are total jokes.

Comparing FIST to krav Maga does it little justice.  Krav is basically warmed over WWII combatives with some "deadly israeli" hype thrown in.  FIST was developed by a person who holds advanced ranking in a mind blowing numbver of styles and probably has fought more opponents in real word conditions that nearly anyone alive.  Just because it is a combatives program like Krav, doesn't mean it is like krav.

No problem with you here.  I'm not looking to fault anyone who's spent any time training for their personal protection.

How is this thread not dead yet?  

Quoted: Good article on FIST

Sounds like a generic fad.  I need more info concepts and fundamentals?

Quoted: Quoted: Good article on FIST Sounds like a generic fad.  I need more info concepts and fundamentals?

Realize that the article is written by someone who sat in on one class and that it's not from a martial arts magazine.  you're not likely to get info on concepts and fundamentals.

I suggest you go to the websight www.fightsurvival.com and if you wish send them an e-mail/

Things like this actually sell, we are in america after all. everyone is looking for short cuts and the quick version, look what a hit fast food is! I'm not slamming Krav Maga because thier is some useful things in the system.

Quoted: Things like this actually sell, we are in america after all. everyone is looking for short cuts and the quick version, look what a hit fast food is! I'm not slamming Krav Maga because thier is some useful things in the system.

My point exactly.  A businessman who wants to learn a little something for his self protection can't commit to a MMA routine.  If you go to a good krav place like the ones we have in the philadelphia area, most are taught by police officers and are simple, effective means of self defense.  By no means on the same level as other fighting arts.  as far as an art is concerned, krav is big wide brush strokes meant to cover the canvas.  It doesn't have the same detail but it touches on everything.  A 22 in your pocket is better than a 45 left at home would be a good analogy

As a practitioner of KM and Sombo I can say that KM works. I was at a strip club in my area last week and some frat boys were in there as well. I have nothing against them personally but I saw one of them fishhook a girl on stage as she was collecting tips and he got his fingers into her g-string. The bouncers tried to remove this guy but his friends jumped them. Me and another guy decided to help out. I hit one of them so hard I partially dislocated my shoulder on impact and left him spitting chickletsand a fractured cheekbone. Once I took care of the first guy I grabbed a second  guy and kicked him in the side of his knee put my knee in his stomach and caught him in an armbar until the cops got there. The bouncers and the other guy that helped when I did took care of the others. The owner of the bar pressed charges against the frats and have barred any of them from coming back. I have to go to court as a witness in a few weeks to testify against frat boy who committed sexual battery against the girl.  My instructor asked why I didn't elbow the first guy and I told him I would lost balance with so much momentum. Simple, no BS techniques work in any street or bar fight even against more than one opponent if you have will to win and not back down.

Quoted: I suggest you go to the websight www.fightsurvival.com and if you wish send them an e-mail/

What I suggest is that you forget going to a school and go get into a brawl... however it looks like loadbearing511 has some insight for us here!!!

Question for loadbearing511, if you dont mind me asking; when and where did this happen?

I am assuming that there were arrests, which would be public record.

I have seen a few dislocated shoulders but never from punching, in fact, to understand the mechanics of the shoulder it is virtually impossible to do it forward, mostly anterior and inferior movements pop it out.

Better to train in something than nothing at all I guess!lol

Much rather have the 45 fully loaded and with me!

Quoted: As a practitioner of KM and Sombo I can say that KM works. I was at a strip club in my area last week and some frat boys were in there as well. I have nothing against them personally but I saw one of them fishhook a girl on stage as she was collecting tips and he got his fingers into her g-string. The bouncers tried to remove this guy but his friends jumped them. Me and another guy decided to help out. I hit one of them so hard I partially dislocated my shoulder on impact and left him spitting chickletsand a fractured cheekbone. Once I took care of the first guy I grabbed a second  guy and kicked him in the side of his knee put my knee in his stomach and caught him in an armbar until the cops got there. The bouncers and the other guy that helped when I did took care of the others. The owner of the bar pressed charges against the frats and have barred any of them from coming back. I have to go to court as a witness in a few weeks to testify against frat boy who committed sexual battery against the girl.  My instructor asked why I didn't elbow the first guy and I told him I would lost balance with so much momentum. Simple, no BS techniques work in any street or bar fight even against more than one opponent if you have will to win and not back down.

I agree, even Tae Kwon Do(NT) is probalby better than nothing.
However this guy... man, I would not have thought he was so full of it had he not been defending the strippers honor, and from fraternity boys, yeah, they are so often in titty bars considering 80% of them are under 21!  
*laff*

The hand would break before the cheekbone would... not too mention that it is virtually impossible to dislocate a shoulder by punching, I know I have popped mine out 4 times from a rugby ingury and after it was badly dislocated sparring BJJ, I had it scoped.

I hate liars and bullshit artists... Krav Maga is a fucking sham, your 'instructor' paid $3K for a cert mail order, I train w/some of them. And here's an update, you can train in badness, you can only condition.

Sombo mostly incorporates all the proven BJJ, its MUCH different now than it was before UFC.

Thumper,

 Number one: I never said I straight punched anyone. Those were your words.

 Number two: When I hit the young punk he probably had was equally as big as I am but with four inches in height on me and I caught him with a hammer punch from a 45 degree angle hence knocking my shoulder partially out of socket.

 Number three: The incident took place at the Dockside Dolls in Wilmington.  

 Number four: My instructor didn't buy his certificate. He fought in the Golan Heights when Ben Netanyahu was PM.

Quoted: Thumper,  Number one: I never said I straight punched anyone. Those were your words.  Number two: When I hit the young punk he probably had was equally as big as I am but with four inches in height on me and I caught him with a hammer punch from a 45 degree angle hence knocking my shoulder partially out of socket.  Number three: The incident took place at the Dockside Dolls in Wilmington.    Number four: My instructor didn't buy his certificate. He fought in the Golan Heights when Ben Netanyahu was PM.

What night last week, week before, etc.?
Who was arrested?
You are talking about this place, right?
Who is your instuctor, BTW?

Understand please, that I do not plan on revealing your identity, I just want to find out if you are full of shit... cuz my bullshit detector is smoking.

Jeez someone flip the testosterone release valve before this thread explodes!!!